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moshkito 
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Online Points: 17510 |
 Posted: December 10 2008 at 15:24 |
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Hi,
Kinda funny ... to think that even the likes of Dream Theater is "prog" ...
In a way, the major issue and problem with the term, is that it is trying to limit the possibilities in many musics and styles ... and this is ... be honest ... boring!
It's sad too ... because ... check this out ... in my words:
Guru Guru was a prog band ... they took what I considered Hendrix and went spacy with it (in the early days!!!) ...
Ange ... prog band that had the sound that Genesis couldn't keep ... and rock too!
Roy Harper ... you want to talk about folk music that is experimental and progressive as it comes? And he ad libs with the best of them!
Steeleye Span/Fairport Convention ... I always thought of these as progfolk ... but I guess there are too many fad'ists out there that would consider that a shame ... never mind some really outstanding music ...
Amon Duul 2 ... the most prog of them all, let's not discuss the last 3 or 4 albums ... stopped with Made in Germany and Hijack ... no band ever did so much music and so different from album to album ... and maybe you should listen to Apocalyptic Bore and then Fly to the Rainbow (title track from Scorpions) to see who really inspired people ... and what!
Tangerine Dream was prog ... but then only did nice music ... ohh I forget ... no one does sound effects and music anymore, unless you are in a New Age store!
Alan Stivell, was and is, the most prog of all the harp players ... you would think that everyone would enjoy listening to the unbelievable freedom in his music from rock, to orchestra to jazz to folk to way out there cacophony ... some of the most incredible mixes ... yet no one even considers this prog.
And yet ... it's sad that all we can discuss is music that is basically patterned after some of the really great bands in the past ... King Crimson, Emerson Lake and Palmer ... and you know what? ... even today, there are not enough bands that have balls to do something different ... they have to sound "prog" ....
The minute we "limit" things ... it's over ...
To be honest with you, I don't want another King Crimson, or another ELP, or another Banco ... it will take away from their very beauty ... and what made them ...
We need to stop labelling the music ... and stop looking for things that sound familiar to your ears ...
Ahhhh ... Dream Theater ... while it is nice to hear good music, be it prog or bullsh*t, the fact of the matter is that it is nice music ... but it is not capable of getting away from the "rock" element ... just like many of the "prog" bands have to find their justifications with washes of keyboards and fancy lyrics. Mind you they are very good and you should see the Live album with an orchestra ... but you know what? Most of us, when we are old and fart'y and sick ... will not be even listening to them ...
... so much for prog ...
Long live prog ... the prog is dead .. to coin an old phrase.
Enjoy the music and its beauty ... but stop thinking that it is good simply because it is "prog" ... the majority of things I hear are just copies and attempts to learn what that "muse" is ...
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: December 10 2008 at 15:48 |
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Please progmetalhead, Crimson said he doesn't like Prog Metal for the distorsions, the examples are multiple, you are new here, but in 2005 for approximately one month prior to Octavarium's release, James LaBrie's solo album Elements of Persuasion was distributed as Octavarium in peer to peers, and due to the fact that Octavarium was added before released, received more or less 50 reviews with 5 stars....And the album wasn't even Octavarium, most have been deleted, but it proved that even the Prog Metal history was distorted..
I understand that a kid believes Prog Archives is a prog metal site, but the Octavarium issue, is pathetic.
And that's not all, OCTAVARIUM received during the first days like 66% of 5 stars reviews and 25% (This means 91% of minimum 4 sdtars) many even said it was the best album ever, and the fact is that when prog Reviewers started to write with responsability, the average went radically down, to the point that it has 3.63 stars despite the avalanche of 5 stars reviews of the first days, a lot of which I'm sure diden't even heard the album
From 35 reviews written between 7 and 9 of June 2007 (Plus two 5 stars reviews written on May 26):
And the RWR are countless, despite at least 50 prior to the release were deleted Now, despite the first days suspicious ratings (I honestly believe many of them didn't heard the album in the morning and were on time to make a respectable reviewf so fast) Octavarium has gone down to
5 stars...41%
4 stars...22%
3 stars...19%
2 stars...11%
1 star........8%
So tell me if isn't right to assume that most people had their 5 stars ratings ready before the album was released and is a distostion?
Especially when we are talking about a non trascendental album that has 561 reviews or ratings but only
19 reviews in 2008
27 reviews in 2007
42 reviews in 2006
88 reviews in the three years after the sixth month of it's release,.
There is a distorsion, that's almost sure a fact.
Iván
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J-Man
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: August 07 2008 Location: Philadelphia,PA Status: Offline Points: 7826 |
Posted: December 10 2008 at 15:48 |
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It's not prog rock like Yes, it's prog metal. Listen to some DT and then you'll understand. It's just prog with a heavier edge to it. It is metal with progressive solos and complexity
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: December 10 2008 at 15:52 |
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Just a thing Progrocker, I never said they are not Prog.
Iván
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: December 10 2008 at 19:32 |
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If you want tech/extreme metal, you are looking for stuff like Martyr. There's more on the tech/extreme appreciation thread.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: December 10 2008 at 19:46 |
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You are right Ivan and this is a tendency across the board on the internet. The new Batman is officially the greatest movie ever as per the rating on imdb!!! A combination of unbridled fanboism and a disdain for history, influences and importance is responsible for distortion of ratings.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: December 11 2008 at 01:05 |
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The same happens to any high profile band - it's not a problem of a single genre.  |
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008 Location: Declined Status: Offline Points: 16715 |
Posted: December 11 2008 at 01:32 |
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Hey Visitor, thanks for mentioning Stan Kenton, I hadn't heard of him before and he rules.
It's just that prog metal has the highest profile bands with new releases.
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: December 11 2008 at 01:56 |
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Of course. But how can that be a problem ... or are many of those who constantly complain about there being too much prog metal simply envious, and wish that there were more prog rock albums being released today? Well, I can only say that the most fundamental problem that we - the community of prog fans - are facing is the lack of support for new artists. It's really breaking my heart that many members here have only listened to like half a dozen releases of 2008 - regardless of whether they're rock or metal. At PF I'm trying to focus on new bands, and I'm positively surprised about the participation, but I wish there would be more people who are willing to leave the past behind (or at least let the past be the past) and focus on the here and now.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65258 |
Posted: December 11 2008 at 02:07 |
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^ hey Mr ProgFreak, if that is your real name, take your pompous attitude and...
oh hi Mike, just kidding  .. I wish I'd heard many more things from '08 but I'm terribly broke right now, lucky to get a few new CDs a month and when I do it's usually from a backlist of things I'm looking for, most not from this year |
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Tapfret
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 12 2007 Location: Bryant, Wa Status: Offline Points: 8581 |
Posted: December 11 2008 at 02:12 |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: December 11 2008 at 02:48 |
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An admirable sentiment but the issue here is about too many reviews submitted in a flurry for new albums. I have observed this on many internet forums....and often these users who submit reviews with extremely high ratings almost on the day of the release never even turn up in the forums if any criticism is addressed to their reviews. In fact, they are hardly seen on the forums and it is not too far fetched to surmise that their sole purpose in submitting reviews could be to "ensure" that their band's album ratings stay high! What can be done about it? Nothing really, once the reviews are acceptable as per the website standards, they stay, though their intention may not exactly be praiseworthy. I am sure you agree that jacking up ratings whether for new or old albums is a bad thing because it defeats the rating's utility as a handy guide to whether you need an album or not. |
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Plankowner
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 09 2008 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 4006 |
Posted: December 11 2008 at 03:01 |
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Bah.
Can't believe I even bothered reading this thread.
How is that new Ulysses album Mike?
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: December 11 2008 at 05:18 |
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^ I listened to it twice - so far I think it's in the 7.x range. But I need more listens ...
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Avantgardehead
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2006 Location: Dublin, OH, USA Status: Offline Points: 1170 |
Posted: December 11 2008 at 05:52 |
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Seems like ridiculously down-tuned guitars, keyboards, ridiculous guitar solos and a wailing vocalist are enough these days. It's kind of funny to listen to, actually...  |
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http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: December 11 2008 at 10:56 |
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No Henry, you were not here on thjose days, it was DT fanboys vs DT haters.
Never before or after happened this, there was a point where all the threads in the front page were about Octavarium or Dream Theater, and this started a bunch of anti DT threads.
A big number of threads was deleted because repeated
Many of this 53 threads, if not most, were started before the album was released or in the first days of it's release, and never an album went from being at the top to an average rating in such a short time.
Many things changed after Octavarium, among them.
Nothing similar happened before or after Octavarium, it was the worst case of fanboyism and distorsion ever. Iván
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: December 11 2008 at 11:15 |
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^However, that has nothing to do with the Progressive quality of Metal any more than rioting football hooligans are caused by how a football team kicks a ball. The point is, you cannot condemn an entire subgenre and be-little the efforts of a genre team by the behaviour of a few fans and "haters", and if the internet had been in existence in the 70s the same thing would have happened then because the "rivalry" between fans of the different bands was just as strong then. This "distortion" as you call it has nothing at all to do with music.
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What?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: December 11 2008 at 11:39 |
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Dean, if you had followed the thread, you will notiice that Crimson 87 and I never mentioned the quality of Prog metal at all, we are talking about the tendency of Prog Metal fanboys to create distorsion of Prog history (Not Prog metal music as you imply, because I have proved I believe Prog Metal is a valid genre) as Crimson 87 said in his post:
Some say it happens with all genres, but as a fact it has only happened with metal or metal related albums to that extent.
Been here more than most of you, as a fact almost since this site started, and never seen anything remotely similar and such a distorsion as in the first semester of 2005.
I never hidden my opinion that three Prog metal sub-genres is a huge distrorsion of prog history, because it's the only one in the site with this priviledge (Art Rock sub-genres are a different case because each one is different in everything to the other), we now seem a site that considers Prog Metal the base and foundation of PA.
Nobody belitles the effort of a team, by the contrary, I think they done a superbb job conviincing people and M@X that Prog Metal needs three different sub-genres, so it would be nice to follow a thread before accusing mef criiticizing a genre or a team, something that at least I never done.
Iván Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 11 2008 at 12:07 |
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AdamHearst
Forum Groupie 
Joined: November 28 2008 Location: Cincinnati, OH Status: Offline Points: 57 |
Posted: December 11 2008 at 11:56 |
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Eek... scary topic!
I'm a bit surprised anyone would be so against the idea that "Prog Metal" should have a right to exist and be called Prog. It's becoming clear to me that "progressive music" and "Prog" are two totally different things, heh. I think any form of music can be progressive... there are certain bands within every genre that try pushing the boundaries further.... |
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I became insane, with long intervals of horrible sanity...
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Tapfret
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 12 2007 Location: Bryant, Wa Status: Offline Points: 8581 |
Posted: December 11 2008 at 12:09 |
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I'm sorry, but congratulating somebody for accomplishing something that you consider a "distorsion of prog history" sounds mighty critical and derogatory. I only have to follow 2 of your paragraphs to determine that. |
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How can metal be prog?
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progmetalhead wrote:
