How can metal be prog?
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Forum Description: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53913
Printed Date: November 26 2024 at 20:30
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Topic: How can metal be prog?
Posted By: PROGMONSTER2008
Subject: How can metal be prog?
Date Posted: December 07 2008 at 20:47
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I've always known prog to be rock music played in a jazz/classical format. Eg. mainly jazz/classical melodies with jazz like guitar/drums/bass and classical keys. It's melody based music with a very even contribution of jazz/classical based instruments such as the usual guitar, bass and drums plus plenty of wind, brass and keys. The guitar is quite often background guitar chipping in within a complex melody or rythm and the drums have plenty of cymbal and snare work, while the bass is busy and really has alot of control of the melody. This music is interesting for many listens because of the melodies and the instruments along with the complexity. This was named PROG by the critics. But metal is the complete opposite. guitar dominated music, usually rythm and riff based where the guitar is up front and louder, the bass tends to just hold the rythm together rather than control it and the drums are mainly based on the toms and keeps the rythm interesting enough until you get bored of it after 2 listens ------------- Jazz/Classical Rock(70's style prog/fusion). Lots of prog keys and melodies(all original ideas) http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008 |
Replies:
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: December 07 2008 at 20:48
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1. Obtain a copy of Dream Theater - Images & Words 2. Listen to it. 3. Report back. |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: December 07 2008 at 20:49
Music, or indeed, prog does not have to be melodic. Anyway, there is pretty much already a topic on this subject. ------------- 
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PROGMONSTER2008 wrote:Posted By: jplanet
Date Posted: December 07 2008 at 20:51
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Black Sabbath - Die Young. One of the best and earliest examples of a successful blend of heavy metal and prog elements...
------------- https://www.facebook.com/ShadowCircus/" rel="nofollow - ..::welcome to the shadow circus::.. |
Posted By: cobb2
Date Posted: December 07 2008 at 20:53
| Most prog is riff and rhythm based. What difference does it make if the guitars are heavily distorted- eg DT POS, even those like Neal morse use heavily distorted guitars to effect (and Yes, before Steve forgot that he had distortion pedals). Guess you have to like guitars. |
Posted By: PROGMONSTER2008
Date Posted: December 07 2008 at 20:54
Dream theatre are like Bonjovi meets Gentle Giant. You won't get much enjoyment from that apart from complexity  ------------- Jazz/Classical Rock(70's style prog/fusion). Lots of prog keys and melodies(all original ideas) http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008 |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: December 07 2008 at 20:55
If you don't find prog in that album, I don't think there's much more that can be discussed. |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: December 07 2008 at 20:56
An absolutely absurd statement. -------------
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: December 07 2008 at 20:59
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Seriously, I can't imagine anything good coming out of this thread. It will just be pointing fingers and bickering. -------------
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Posted By: NotSoKoolAid
Date Posted: December 07 2008 at 21:00
Natural Science brings up a great point. You may insult bands freely and so can I, though you have not addressed the issue he brings up. Nothing was said of the progressive (or lack thereof) elements on Images and Words by Dream Theater.
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Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: December 07 2008 at 21:01
Just because you and half the forum here don't like Dream Theater doesn't mean the other half hates them as well. They don't sound anything like Bon Jovi, so you're just insulting them.
And I'd like to say that something like "Metropolis" or "Six Degrees" would be more representative of prog-metal. ------------- 
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Posted By: PROGMONSTER2008
Date Posted: December 07 2008 at 21:01
it's prog with alot of non prog elements. Doesn't really do anything for me ------------- Jazz/Classical Rock(70's style prog/fusion). Lots of prog keys and melodies(all original ideas) http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008 |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: December 07 2008 at 21:06
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mmmm..... It's that time of the year when people start losing it... I guess it's in the water... there's a conspiracy going on.... the goverment puts phosphoric acid in the water some people drink... so that they create the most USELESS threads ever.... ------------- 
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Posted By: NotAProghead
Date Posted: December 07 2008 at 21:08
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PROGMONSTER2008, look at this thread: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51236&KW=is+not+prog&PID=2946630#2946630 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51236&KW=is+not+prog&PID=2946630#2946630 It is a short coversation, only 10 pages. Perhaps you'll find it interesting.  ------------- Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour) |
Posted By: PROGMONSTER2008
Date Posted: December 07 2008 at 21:13
Your signature pic is completely Non Prog ------------- Jazz/Classical Rock(70's style prog/fusion). Lots of prog keys and melodies(all original ideas) http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008 |
Posted By: Chris H
Date Posted: December 07 2008 at 21:16
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LOL.
There, I've contributed my whole range of thoughts on this thread. I hate to be the one to say it, but PROGMONSTER2008, get off the computer please? ------------- Beauty will save the world. 
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: December 07 2008 at 21:21
Seriously, that is enough, PROGMONSTERS. I was 100 per cent correct in believing this thread would descend down to the deepest depths of stupidity and uselessness. You've made this thread purely just to incite angry responses and you know it, don't try to hide away from that. -------------
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Posted By: Chris H
Date Posted: December 07 2008 at 21:23
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Harry you can't contribute to this thread, your genre is built on lies!
*runs*
 ------------- Beauty will save the world.
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Posted By: darkmatter
Date Posted: December 07 2008 at 21:25
| What is going on here today? First "Korn is prog" and now this.... |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: December 07 2008 at 21:41
On the other hand, your avatar so totally reflects you...... NOTHING -------------
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Posted By: Statutory-Mike
Date Posted: December 07 2008 at 21:55
  I...I...I... I might hate you. ------------- 
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: December 07 2008 at 22:10
sounds like an interesting blend to me.. why not |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: December 07 2008 at 22:26
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Let's get this out of the way right now: melodies belong in the NINETEENTH CENTURY, and I highly disapprove of anyone using them, much less prog. Otherwise, an '07 troll with 182 posts, interesting.
------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: December 07 2008 at 22:27
Actually, that's right... (even though it's false in this case)... Why would it be so terrible such a combination? It actually sounds good! And, to these ears of mine, way better than Bon Jovi meets Bon jovi and much better than Gentle Giant meets Gentle Giant....
This thread is like alcohol meets lack of proper sleep.... terrible results for the brain, that can cause... -------------
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: December 07 2008 at 22:34
I want somebody to write/mash up this song. I have to hear it now. Maybe throw in a little U2 too, so this hypothetical Dream Theater has a chance to rock out! ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Walker
Date Posted: December 07 2008 at 22:39
You just admitted they are prog... you answered your own question... enough said
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Posted By: Walker
Date Posted: December 07 2008 at 22:41
I sincerely hope you are joking
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: December 07 2008 at 22:49
It's Henry, don't worry. About 3/4s of his posts have :P written all over them. -------------
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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: December 07 2008 at 23:01
I was just listening to Gentle Giant this morning, I don't listen to old prog-rock much anymore, but it was cool hearing them again. Their feel for the quirky funk is pretty cool. |
Posted By: Walker
Date Posted: December 07 2008 at 23:02
Oh good... I thought I was out of fashion for a minute!
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Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: December 07 2008 at 23:37
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Oh you guys, so susceptible to trolls!
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: December 07 2008 at 23:43
| I'm watching the Porcupine Tree DVD. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 07 2008 at 23:48
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Come on T, somebody throws dung in the road and you step on it.
Leave him smell the feces and deal with his own flies.
Iván
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 01:44
Maybe I'll start taking you seriously when you manage to get the band names right.  ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: PROGMONSTER2008
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 02:22
lol. Melodies are what makes the best music. Music isn't about trends. That's why you move from band to band quickly because they can't write melodies which will keep you interested for more than a couple of listens. Rythms only get you so far. You just follow what band is popular among metal friends  ------------- Jazz/Classical Rock(70's style prog/fusion). Lots of prog keys and melodies(all original ideas) http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008 |
Posted By: PROGMONSTER2008
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 02:23
partly prog but not prog enough for me  ------------- Jazz/Classical Rock(70's style prog/fusion). Lots of prog keys and melodies(all original ideas) http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008 |
Posted By: PROGMONSTER2008
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 02:26
amatuer ideas, amatuer melodies. I wouldn't recommend PT to a prog listener ------------- Jazz/Classical Rock(70's style prog/fusion). Lots of prog keys and melodies(all original ideas) http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008 |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 02:30
Okay, but it's pretty clear Henry's post obviously had :P stamped all over it. Maybe it's just me and I've gotten pretty used to his posting style, but it seemed obvious to me. As much Avant-garde as he listens to, he still listens to music with melodies in it (even if that doesn't make up a majority of his listening I'd imagine). In the last 3 months upon checking my last FM profile, the most listened to band is Meshuggah. That's right MESHUGGAH. Meshuggah are barely about melodicism, yet I listen to them very frequently. I also like Schoenberg and his 12 tone serialism works, which are entirely atonal and very unmelodic, but nonetheless it's good music to my ears that I can listen to over and over again. Your post is just completely ridiculous. -------------
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Posted By: PROGMONSTER2008
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 02:33
When I heard Messhuggah I laughed. It's image music and it's very amatuer. Similar to Devin Townsend. Very average music and a big reason why I don't rate modern rock usually. ------------- Jazz/Classical Rock(70's style prog/fusion). Lots of prog keys and melodies(all original ideas) http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008 |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 02:41
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Personally, I find if a thread puts forward an argument or debate to which I can find nothing positive to contribute, it can be better all round for me to abstain from posting, as opposed to inserting randomly negative comments which serve no other purpose than to wind up those who may want to discuss the subject concerned. ------------- 
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 05:16
Amen. Don't feed the troll. |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 06:40
You could have said that at the begining of the thread man! That's really a matter of taste, oh and BTW, you said it again, THEY'RE PROG just in these words "partly prog". Just enjoy the music man, if you don't enjoy because they're not "Prog enough" for you, then I think you're having a problem(no offense) with your taste. I'm a newbie on Prog Metal, but I can assure you all this what I have just said. I have Images & Words and Octavarium. I really can't think of something Proggier than Learning to Live, I mean, for a metal(Prog) band I wouldn't expect that type of thing, and it's not just related because "ok there's odd time sig" or "ohh look moog!", no man, you got a 11 minute mini-epic with a lot of diversity, the same for Take the Time and Metropolis Pt 1. To conclude, I just want to remark your "not prog enough for me", that says it all, and really changes the topic/subject completely. Just my 2 cents. |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 06:58
I agree. its far to generous. How bout http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-XfnkLdkjo - Nitro meets Rush? And guys: Lacking knowledge is not the same as being a troll.
Mistaking personal preferances for universal laws is both ignorant an stupid. Btw: I can't stand any of the bands I've heard in the progmetal section. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 07:56
Yes but in terms of usefulness of the thread, it is practically the same thing, worse in fact because this guy believes in what he is posting and can't be talked out of his joke which you could with a troll. |
Posted By: mrcozdude
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 08:17
[
I'm sorry but i found that quite funny. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/cozfunkel/" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 09:57
Actually that settles the debate quite nicely. If you really want melody, you listen to classical. |
Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 11:27
| Did mommy yell at you today? |
Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 11:52
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Oh, the ignorance...
------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
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Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 12:06
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Holy Cow- Now we gotta endure music with no melody. No wonder Stratovarius will never make it onto Progarchives.
Dream Theater are full of melody and they have been my favorite band for about 5 years.
Anyone tell me Dream Theater aint prog - like them or not - is better off listening to the top 40 on MTV. ------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 12:12
Any you say nothing good will come out of this thread how? ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Trademark
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 12:59
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I'll get right to work on the DT/GG mash up. This is gonna be FUN!
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Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 13:05
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I'm in the left corner with the Dream Theater gloves on!!! ------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 13:15
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Is 21st Century Schizoid Man a prog song? If your answer is yes, than that is the answer to your question. ------------- 
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Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 14:08
This pretty much sums up this threads topic and creator from what I've read here. |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 16:05
| and that concludes the chapter on how metal can be prog |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 16:44
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I thought the T's original thread had smothered the thought that metal, let alone most musical genres, could not include acts & albums that are prog. But what do I know, I'm just listening to Rush - Hemispheres, and reading some old issues of Kerrang where they're reviewing Moving Pictures  ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 17:56
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I was looking at my shelves a few seconds ago and it so happened that I detected a small particle of that nuissance we humans call dust. Then I decided to clean it but my first reaction was actually to go and get some orange juice which of course is not enough under today's standards to give me all the intake of Vitamin C I need to survive. Therefore, in all fairness, it's clear that the connection is totally intrinsecal and henceforth probable. All that has to be done is look at the fact, read them, calculate them, then extrapolate a frame of information and all you'll ever get is enough evidence to support your argument, which is completely out of proportion, since it's clear that both side A and side B have incongruences that need to be addressed, while side C of a triangle usually brings about peace and rest. Therefore, I announce that I have accepted the inclusion of said master in our database, and my only reason behind doing it is the fact that i f**king want to do it, ok??? -------------
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 18:01
Oh this one's so easy to answer and I'm really not a metal fan. Metal can be prog by being prog, simple as that, and it doesn't really matter much after that. 
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 18:16
 Iván -------------
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Posted By: AlexUC
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 19:43
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Ow come'on guys how can you take this guy seriously, can't you see he's just trolling? "DT is like Bon Jovi meets GG" the most ridiculous phrase of the year... Please another one!!!??? I know you can exceed this one!!  ------------- This is not my beautiful house... |
Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 01:54
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Metal is prog in a completely different way than rock is, and I think that's what throws a lot of people off.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: PROGMONSTER2008
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 04:44
Well I believe prog was/is supposed to be jazz/classical based rock music full of awesome clever melodies. The type of melody which makesd you think, how did they come up with that. But prog metaI doesn't do that hardly ever. Playing technical only gets you through a couple of listens then it's history. I don't like the idea of lumping true prog with prog metal. They are completely different forms of music with the word prog in their name. Oh yeah, true prog is way better  . I blame the critics for naming it progressive rock in the first place because it's not about inventing new music. It's just quality music written by creative musicians. Most Modern prog bands have actually taken the name 'progressive literally' but that's not what it's about imo ------------- Jazz/Classical Rock(70's style prog/fusion). Lots of prog keys and melodies(all original ideas) http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008 |
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 05:49
Let's take this logic to its ultimate conclusion, shall we? If it's classical and jazz (among others) that make prog rock 'prog', then why waste time listening to prog at all? My recent listening habits reeinforce this conclusion - hardly any prog, 70s' or modern, and lots of classical and jazz instead. |
Posted By: PROGMONSTER2008
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 06:00
Because prog has something jazz and classical doesn't. It's the combination of rock/jazz and classical which makes it so good ------------- Jazz/Classical Rock(70's style prog/fusion). Lots of prog keys and melodies(all original ideas) http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008 |
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 06:14
'Because prog has something jazz and classical doesn't. ' You mean mellotrons? Let's see: Melody - classical and jazz trumps prog. 'How did they come up with that', you ask? It's simple - often they took it from classical and jazz musicians. Rhythm - again, you will find better-developed rhythms in jazz and classical (not only Western classical). not that prog drummers or bassist are bad, but it's the jazz guys (playing jazz) that really blow me away Wealth in instrumentation? Again, classical and jazz reign supreme. Complexity? Don't get me started on that... Even these stupid time signatures are better done in classical - Stravinsky, anyone? 'It's the combination of rock/jazz and classical which makes it so good' Never heard a really good rock/classical combo. Sure, you get folks like Gentle Giant, and they're talented and enjoyable, but when you listen to classical later, you forget about them instantly. Jazz/classical combo - Ellington or Stan Kenton, anyone? |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 07:11
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^I'm a lot more on your side than PROGMONSTER2008, but I also think you're being a little diffiicult. The combining of genres I find in Art Zoyd, Henry Cow and some of those other advanced RIO groups sounds pretty unique to me. Although their origins are 20th century classical and modern jazz in combination with driving bass, electric guitars and percussion associated with rock. And I do listen to the origins of their music as well. But although less advanced and not "better" (I'm not really trained or able to measure these kinds of qualities, I just know it), I've probably played Art Zoyd more often than Bartok. I find the origins of RIO, but nothing that similar to the actual music elsewhere, if you know what I mean. But if we are only talking about dumb stuff like Trace, Exception, ELP and silly bands like that, you're right. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 07:32
Fair enough, but if you're going to bring up melodic complexity as the sole criterion for judging the quality of a piece of music (as Progmonster has), you're going to have to face the music, pardon the pun. Besides, I have a feeling he wasn't really talking about RIO, more like Genesis, Yes, Italian Prog, or Canterbury. And is it just me, or does Art Zoyd sound somewhat like Xenakis? |
Posted By: JayDee
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 08:14
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Mountains out of molehills eh? There's really no point in complicating things here. Metal has close affinities with rock, more than any other genre i think (debatable) , so it's quite natural that metal MAY acquire some of rock's variation, namely progressive. Metal can be prog and prog metal does exist. If you're not convinced despite the immensity of metal albums and bands openly calling themselves progressive, then it's a matter of belief and personal taste. Whatever floats your boat.
------------- 
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Posted By: Walker
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 09:31
| Metal is a type of rock music... therefore Prog Metal is a subset of Prog Rock... and that answers the question in the original post. All this other talk about Melody, Classical, Jazz, whatever is off topic. |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 09:39
You forgot one of the GREATEST! Frank Zappa, his mix of jazz and classical is OUTSTANDING, I can barely think of a jazz/classical compositor that can do what Zappa did. Of course, without jazz and classical Zappa's amazing compositions/cleverness couldn't have existed. |
Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 09:49
Well just because you don't like progressive metal doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There is definetely metal with prog elements, and if you aren't able to hear them in the metal you have listened to, then maybe prog's just not for you. But it does exist, and there are plenty of progressive music experts who will affirm the existence of prog metal. -------------
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Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 10:04
This guy is hilarious  -------------  |
Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 13:47
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You know what the problem with prog metal is: just that they have the egos of a prog musician and a metal one , taking themseves WAY TOOOO SERIOUSLY. I can stand metal when they do it just for fun like Manowar for ex but when they start being too creative they start to piss me off.
Ayreon anyone?
Besides why do they have to cover their music with a dark feel? There is no need to do such sad music!! I guess it's a matter of taste prefer my utopic prog like Yes instead.
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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 13:51
Yes Crimson87 nonmetal bands like say King Crimson never did such things. Dark, serious music has no place in prog. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 13:52
Yeah , I guess the metal way of being prog is through technical atributes and the classic prog one through compositions. Genesis musicians can't do anything against prog metal virtuosos , in technical aspects.
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 13:53
Advice: steer clear of Univers Zero. |
Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 13:57
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It's weird but your advice made me wanna hear their stuff , it's OK if their are sad in not a cliched way like most metal and modern music. |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 13:57
Every so often I try making a post without drowning it in emoticons to see if people can tell. But since people sometimes take me seriously when I do use emoticons, it doesn't work very well.
I actually agree with him on that one. It's ok if you like them, but PT should not be the prog torchbearers into the new millenium.
I don't listen to metal. In fact, I don't have any friends, much less metal friends.
While I think you went too far in your posts after this one, I do agree that people talking about the genius of pure melodic prog are silly because classical does pure melody so much better (even though I greatly prefer the sweeping romantics to Bach).
Not the Xenakis I've heard, but I have fairly limited exposure to him because to me his music is robotic and cold (unlike Art Zoyd). And everyone sounds somewhat like someone else. :P ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 13:59
What are some examples of modern music being sad in a cliched way? ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 14:03
KC and VDGG are darker than all the prog metal band's put together , but I don't mind since they are original enough to me.
Besides I refer to Tool's "darkness" to be more specific.
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 14:09
Why has this thread, which obviously has no purpose other than to antagonize, remained alive while the Wal-Mart thread was cast into oblivion?
Because happiness is surprisingly overrated. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 14:27
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Heh, happiness is severely underrated. I can't stand most sad music (and especially depressing music like Opeth) because it doesn't sound genuine and I think of trendy teenagers moping around, writing poetry, and humming lines from these sad songs with quivering voice and teary eyes. Although some good sad music would be maudlin of the Well and The Dears. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 15:36
My thoughts , exactly. If you can see more than enough depressing stories on TV. Why do they give us more depressing stuff like Marillion's Brave?
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 15:45
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I tend to like contrast in my music (light/ dark, humorous or fun/ serious, major/ minor keys... transitions in mood.) I think that the best bands are commonly very versatile and diverse in approach.
------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 16:52
You blew your chance of getting one when you failed to notice that it's Art Zoyd who is cold and robotic and not Xenakis Henry Plainview wrote: While I think you went too far in your posts after this one, I do agree that people talking about the genius of pure melodic prog are silly because classical does pure melody so much better (even though I greatly prefer the sweeping romantics to Bach). While I largely stand by what I said - especially the melody thing - I was aiming for a healthy dose of reductio ad absurdum . Yeah, I'm on a prolonged non-prog binge, but if I really thought good prog was so inferior to some other forms of music, I wouldn't be here. Where did that sad music discussion come from, btw  ? And seriously, pretty much only bad music makes me sad. Ok, some lyrics are really depressing, but it's just the lyrics and not the music. Good music, whether stylised as 'dark' or not, is always a joy to listen to for me.EDIT: Messed up the quotes. |
Posted By: PROGMONSTER2008
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 18:36
I think prog and fusion has more exciting ideas in regards to melody than typical jazz imo ------------- Jazz/Classical Rock(70's style prog/fusion). Lots of prog keys and melodies(all original ideas) http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008 |
Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 20:40
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I think this guy says there's no such thing as prog metal because he doesn't like it. Saying stuff like, "Only a few listens, and then you're done" only means that he's unable to see the creative aspects of progressive and extreme/tech metal. I beleive he has not realized that music is a subjective thing and that the genre progressive metal exists whether he likes it or not.
I for one, prefer the progressive and tech/extreme metal far more than the classics, but I enjoy the classics too. I respect that many people may only listen to classic prog and detest any type of metal whatsoever, but I expect people to accept and respect other people's opinions. I do not campaign against symphonic prog saying that "overly happy melodies and pointless complexities that Yes and Genesis use will only get so far, because you can only listen to the light stuff for a little bit". -------------
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Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 02:49
I don't. Sure, you get brilliant folks like Allan Holdsworth, but he's the exception rather than the rule. Though if we're talking guitar, jazz *seems* somewhat lacking. Edit - and if by 'fusion' you also mean people like Frank Gambale, Dave Weckl and similar, then I absolutely don't agree. |
Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 04:39
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Avant-jazz seems to have jazz-fusion, prog, and avant-garde beat! But finding the good stuff is a chore....
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 04:44
Google 'Taran's Free Jazz Hour', if you're not familiar with it already. That should help you find the good stuff. |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 04:57
I think he is saying that prog(ressive) metal isn't Prog. I don't think that in itself necessarily have to be thought of as an insult, uninformed or trolling. It just comes across like it here. Any random listen of the streams in the prog metal section and most of the albums I've checked out, shares so little with prog and so much with plain metal I'm not surprised people keeps bringing this issue up. More knowledgable people than Progmonster2008 (and most of us) thinks the same. I've seen this done in a more enlightened and openminded way by others, here and elsewhere, previously. Prog metal with a strong relation to what naturally belongs on this site, exists. Fine. But I rarely agree with you metalheads what should qualify. Most of you seem to think that an outrageous concept, keyboards and some classicalsounding topping (still mainly as primitively incorporated in the music/compositions as in Days of Future Passed from '67), is more than enough to transform ordinary metal into prog. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 06:12
To say that it doesn't sound like the prog of old is one thing and to say it is not prog at all is another. The T dealt with this in considerable depth in the other thread "The real problem with prog metal: is not prog rock". Progressive metal is simply metal with some elements from prog-rock, but very often too few elements to call it prog-rock itself. PROGMONSTER is suggesting that it is not prog at all because according to him it lacks creativity or cannot match old prog-rock, which cannot be valid reasons. |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 07:00
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^This doesn't go against anything I wrote. All genres of music shares some elements with prog. I think superficial elements like the ones I mentioned in my previous post shouldn't count at all. I accept that there's a genre called progressive metal. I still have a problem with the flood of pompous yet simple, vulgar and embarrassing so-called progressive metal added here. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 07:32
But isn't there pompous but simple and embarrassing prog rock? I will not give examples because I don't want a fresh derail due to objections to my post. But there is, and you know it. We cannot go by whether they "deserve" to be in the database but whether they satisfy the criteria. Yes, this is a progressive rock resource so what is progressive metal doing here if its collaborator says it is not progressive rock? That's a can of worms in itself and best not to open it in this discussion. |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 07:48
Well, as long as its still prog rock. To me this is about what kind of progessive metal should qualifiy as prog enough. I used the words pompous, simple and vulgar to discribe how many bands I shouldn't be here sound to my ears.
Sure. Some bands might fill the criterias to be progressive metal, but still considered too simple to be here. I know it happens, but not often enough, imo.
I'm no collabrator and neither is topicsarter, nor do we agree. I just think there's to much dumb, overblown metal added. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: progmetalhead
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 08:00
Out of genuine interest, would you care to enlighten us as to which bands in the database satisfy your criteria outlined above? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/colt2112" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/colt2112 Colt - Admin Team MMA 
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 09:24
"Pompous": I'm pretty sure than many prog rock bands could also be called that ... "Simple": You may have a point there. But then again there's an entire sub genre (Tech/Extreme) of prog metal which can hardly be called simple. If anything, I'd say that the fact that metal is generally more riff oriented than rock leads to a more "episodic" type of songwriting, with less intricate form than prog rock - or rather, than some of the best prog rock bands achieved. Not all prog rock is on the same level as Gentle Giant. "Vulgar": Why, absolutely. This may even be the most basic difference between rock and metal. However, it is also a matter of taste. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 09:30
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Hi Mr Progfreak - there's not much as intricate as Dream Theater or Pain .... Not even the Tech / Extreme guys. I don't think that Metal is more vulgar than rock - I've always in fact found it more complex. There are those in Metal who are more vulgar but not the technically good Metal bands. I think vulgar disguised the non musical prowess of certain metal bands. ------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 09:51
I'm not writing about that subgenre. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 10:00
Simply, metal with sufficient prog elements so as to set it apart from the other sub genres of metal. That is all. I get back to what The T tried to say and which I agree with, progressive metal is a metal sub genre, not a prog rock sub genre. Whether prog metal needs to be represented on a prog rock website is a different issue, but if it is, then above is the eligibility criteria for a band to be classified as prog metal. Obviously prog fans as opposed to metal fans are not going to agree with the inclusions then and well, the only solution I can suggest is to get sufficiently acquianted with metal to be able to distinguish between prog metal and any other sub genre of metal. As for overblown metal bands getting in here, again, that they are overblown cannot be a disqualification. Are they prog metal or not is the issue. Note, I am not saying "Are they prog or not?", I am saying, "Are they prog metal or not?".
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