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bucka001 
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Joined: November 16 2005
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 Posted: March 31 2011 at 13:31 |
 Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Sorry to say it...I don't like VDGG at all.
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Fair enough (you're certainly not alone there!). Then what tune(s) on Godbulff do you like least; what bugs you about that tune(s).
I ask because your description of Musical Box/Nursery Cryme (aggressive, intelligent lyrics, etc) is exactly what goes on w/Godbluff when I listen to it. Actually, Godbluff is more violent and aggressive (but that could be a turn off). That's a trait, I believe, that Genesis learned from VdGG.
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jc
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
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Posted: March 31 2011 at 13:59 |
I thought it was pretty established that Peter Gabriel admired Hammill's work. When that started and how much influence there was I don't know, and whether there was anything reciprocal.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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moshkito
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Posted: March 31 2011 at 20:18 |
Negoba wrote:
I thought it was pretty established that Peter Gabriel admired Hammill's work. When that started and how much influence there was I don't know, and whether there was anything reciprocal. |
AND ... PG produced more than one piece for Peter Hammill, and I think that Peter is represented in one of those compilation albums on Peter Gabriel's label. And PG's words are very nice and complimentary.
I would think there was some influence here, and PG would have known about PH via the label and a few other things. Essentially, by the time that PG and Geneiss did their 2nd album, PH already had 4 or 5, and I am not sure that he was too hard to miss.
I don't think that we have to worry about who's on first, or second or third, but when it comes to individuality, because PH was probably at the forefront of the whole thing, but I am not sure that PH was concerned with the whole "competitive" nature of things, and he just stuck to his own insides and work and not worry about anyone else ... and I think this is really important these days to be able to be creative.
In general, and the same happened to Peter Gabriel, the more famous and known they became, the less creative and inventive they became ... and you can not sit here and say that about Peter Hammill. You have to be able to throw away the past and those ideas ... and PH did ... but I am not sure that Genesis or Peter Gabriel can think like that when it comes to their music, because of their "fame" ... and the fact that 10 thousand other people are also making money off them!
The one comparison that would be tough would be if you plugged up ... Godbluff against The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway ... because in essence ... you have the same parallel and study ... done left handed by one and right handed by the other! So to speak! I would still pick Peter Hammill though ... but Lamb is very special for me as well!
Edited by moshkito - March 31 2011 at 20:19
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Zargus
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Joined: May 08 2005
Location: Sweden
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Posted: March 31 2011 at 20:31 |
moshkito wrote:
Negoba wrote:
I thought it was pretty established that Peter Gabriel admired Hammill's work. When that started and how much influence there was I don't know, and whether there was anything reciprocal. |
AND ... PG produced more than one piece for Peter Hammill, and I think that Peter is represented in one of those compilation albums on Peter Gabriel's label. And PG's words are very nice and complimentary.
I would think there was some influence here, and PG would have known about PH via the label and a few other things. Essentially, by the time that PG and Geneiss did their 2nd album, PH already had 4 or 5, and I am not sure that he was too hard to miss.
I don't think that we have to worry about who's on first, or second or third, but when it comes to individuality, because PH was probably at the forefront of the whole thing, but I am not sure that PH was concerned with the whole "competitive" nature of things, and he just stuck to his own insides and work and not worry about anyone else ... and I think this is really important these days to be able to be creative.
In general, and the same happened to Peter Gabriel, the more famous and known they became, the less creative and inventive they became ... and you can not sit here and say that about Peter Hammill. You have to be able to throw away the past and those ideas ... and PH did ... but I am not sure that Genesis or Peter Gabriel can think like that when it comes to their music, because of their "fame" ... and the fact that 10 thousand other people are also making money off them!
The one comparison that would be tough would be if you plugged up ... Godbluff against The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway ... because in essence ... you have the same parallel and study ... done left handed by one and right handed by the other! So to speak! I would still pick Peter Hammill though ... but Lamb is very special for me as well! |
Good post, you hit the nail on its head again! 
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dr prog
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Joined: September 25 2010
Location: Melbourne
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Posted: March 31 2011 at 20:51 |
Only a brainwashed Genesis fan would rate Nursery higher than Godbluff. Godbluff should be winning this thread comfortably 
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: March 31 2011 at 21:16 |
dr prog wrote:
Only a brainwashed Genesis fan would rate Nursery higher than Godbluff. Godbluff should be winning this thread comfortably |
Having an own and personal taste is not being brainwashed, brainwashed would be for example to think VDGG,King Crimson and Gentle Giant are the peak of Prog if I simply don't like most of their music.
I was a Genesis fan when not many liked them in comparison with Yes, Wakeman or ELP, Genesis really got the respect of the majority when Gabriel had already left the band, so being a Genesis fan is anything except being brainwashed.
And if you think Godbluff should be winning, learn to accept hat the majority doesn't agree with you. This doesn't mean one is better than the other, even when I believe that in a site like Prog Archives, every Prog album and band got the respect they deserve.
Iván
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Logan
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Posted: March 31 2011 at 22:42 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
dr prog wrote:
Only a brainwashed Genesis fan would rate Nursery higher than Godbluff. Godbluff should be winning this thread comfortably |
Having an own and personal taste is not being brainwashed, brainwashed would be for example to think VDGG,King Crimson and Gentle Giant are the peak of Prog if I simply don't like most of their music.
I was a Genesis fan when not many liked them in comparison with Yes, Wakeman or ELP, Genesis really got the respect of the majority when Gabriel had already left the band, so being a Genesis fan is anything except being brainwashed.
And if you think Godbluff should be winning, learn to accept hat the majority doesn't agree with you. This doesn't mean one is better than the other, even when I believe that in a site like Prog Archives, every Prog album and band got the respect they deserve.
Iván |
Godbluff has a higher average rating than Nusery Cryme, but is has fewer ratings and is less known. Poll results don't mean much. It's very common for people to vote in such polls who aren't really familiar with both choices. You'll get VdGG fanboys who vote VdGG irregardless of the album, and without really knowing the competition, and Genesis fanboys who do the same. There are rather more Genesis fanboys, but I won't draw conclusions based on that.when it comes to the poll results in this competition. I do hope that most who have voted for either album have at least really listened to both albums. Maybe I shouldn't have voted because although I have heard Nursery Cryme considerable times (I used to be really big on Genesis), I haven't listened to it in full in years; whereas, Godbluff, which I voted for, is fresher in my memory. Sometimes I choose to listen to both albums again before voting in polls -- especially when my memories are rather hazy, and noting that my musical interests do change over time.
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Guests
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Posted: March 31 2011 at 22:56 |
dr prog wrote:
Only a brainwashed Genesis fan would rate Nursery higher than Godbluff. Godbluff should be winning this thread comfortably |
Substitute "Pawn Hearts" for "Godbluff," and you may have a point. Otherwise, I'll choose early Genesis every time. I hardly think "brainwashed" is the appropriate term though. The word "enlightened" would be a better description.
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Man With Hat
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Jazz-Rock/Fusion/Canterbury Team
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Posted: March 31 2011 at 22:57 |
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NC is good, but Godbluff is better.
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Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: March 31 2011 at 23:54 |
Logan wrote:
Godbluff has a higher average rating than Nusery Cryme, but is has fewer ratings and is less known. Poll results don't mean much. It's very common for people to vote in such polls who aren't really familiar with both choices. You'll get VdGG fanboys who vote VdGG irregardless of the album, and without really knowing the competition, and Genesis fanboys who do the same. There are rather more Genesis fanboys, but I won't draw conclusions based on that.when it comes to the poll results in this competition. I do hope that most who have voted for either album have at least really listened to both albums.
Maybe I shouldn't have voted because although I have heard Nursery Cryme considerable times (I used to be really big on Genesis), I haven't listened to it in full in years; whereas, Godbluff, which I voted for, is fresher in my memory.
Sometimes I choose to listen to both albums again before voting in polls -- especially when my memories are rather hazy, and noting that my musical interests do change over time.
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My problem is to be called brainwashed because we like one album more than other.
IMO Genesis reached their peak in Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot, both two sides of the same coin, and even when SEBTP and The Lamb are masterpieces, always believed that NC is slightly superior.
It's a matter of taste.
Iván
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bucka001
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Joined: November 16 2005
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Posted: April 01 2011 at 06:03 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
My problem is to be called brainwashed because we like one album more than other.
IMO Genesis reached their peak in Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot,
It's a matter of taste.
Iván |
Who can find fault with this. I come to a different conclusion, but so what? And the term 'brainwashed' hardly applies here, I agree (of course, neither does the word 'enlightened' that someone else used a few posts ago when describing why some folks like Genesis over VdGG...)
But, Ivan, I thought it was equally ridiculous when you stated "The Musical Box guys!!!!!!!!
The song that epitomizes what Progressive Rock means (Complex. elaborate, interesting melody, aggressive, with radical changes and intelligent lyrics plus a good violent component).
This alone makes it better"
The 'this alone makes it better' part struck me the same way that the 'brainwashing' part did you, at least in terms of how off-the-mark it is. You still never mentioned what tune on Godbluff doesn't meet those requirements (complex, aggressive, etc). I guess I just feel like, while it's cool you don't like VdGG, that you don't really know the album we're talking about... but if I'm wrong, say so and I'll eat crow. I can say that I know both Nursery Cryme and Godbluff extremely well and have for decades.
The thing here is, I feel that some people will vote for Genesis or VdGG (or whoever in any of these polls) based on who their faves are, without knowing the other artists' work too well.
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jc
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: April 01 2011 at 09:52 |
bucka001 wrote:
This alone makes it better"
The 'this alone makes it better' part struck me the same way that the 'brainwashing' part did you, at least in terms of how off-the-mark it is. You still never mentioned what tune on Godbluff doesn't meet those requirements (complex, aggressive, etc). I guess I just feel like, while it's cool you don't like VdGG, that you don't really know the album we're talking about... but if I'm wrong, say so and I'll eat crow. I can say that I know both Nursery Cryme and Godbluff extremely well and have for decades.
The thing here is, I feel that some people will vote for Genesis or VdGG (or whoever in any of these polls) based on who their faves are, without knowing the other artists' work too well. |
Please Bucka001, you are new here (At least in posts), but if you spent more time in the forum, you would ALREADY KNOW I NEVER TALK ABOUT AN ALBUM I HAVEN'T HEARD OR NOT FAMILIAR WITH, so please, don't make those guesses again, because they are untrue.
I don't know how old are you or how long you listen Prog (not important either), but I'm on this for exactly 34 years, and in this time i heard all the most important classic Prog bands and in most of the cases and even when I don't like most of their music, have all their albums, because all of them have the touch of the genius, and I respect that.
No it doesn't, a brainwashed person doesn't take decisions for himself, but because he/she has been programmed to do so.
In my case I made an informed decision, for example, I'm listening "The Udercover Man", and even when it's elaborate and well crafted, there0's something missing IMO, that ingredient that separetes the good from the great, Yes is dramatic but I believe too derivative of Bowie) and I could give an opinion about each and every song, but I don't need to justify me.
I believe that The Musical Box is the best song ever released by a Progressive Rock band, and even when this is a subjective decision, I believe there are reasons that justify that opinion.
Iván
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Harold-The-Barrel
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Posted: April 01 2011 at 09:57 |
Hard to choose, Godbluff is probably more consistent, but i'm going with Nursery Cryme 
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You must be joking.....Take a running jump......
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bucka001
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Joined: November 16 2005
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Posted: April 01 2011 at 11:03 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Please Bucka001, you are new here (At least in posts), but if you spent more time in the forum, you would ALREADY KNOW I NEVER TALK ABOUT AN ALBUM I HAVEN'T HEARD OR NOT FAMILIAR WITH, so please, don't make those guesses again, because they are untrue.
I don't know how old are you or how long you listen Prog (not important either), but I'm on this for exactly 34 years, and in this time i heard all the most important classic Prog bands and in most of the cases and even when I don't like most of their music, have all their albums, because all of them have the touch of the genius, and I respect that.
No it doesn't, a brainwashed person doesn't take decisions for himself, but because he/she has been programmed to do so.
In my case I made an informed decision, for example, I'm listening "The Udercover Man", and even when it's elaborate and well crafted, there0's something missing IMO, that ingredient that separetes the good from the great, Yes is dramatic but I believe too derivative of Bowie) and I could give an opinion about each and every song, but I don't need to justify me.
I believe that The Musical Box is the best song ever released by a Progressive Rock band, and even when this is a subjective decision, I believe there are reasons that justify that opinion.
Iván |
Ivan, I don't know how you read my previous post, but I was agreeing with you and saying that I can find no fault with your opinion, and I also stated that the person who used the term "brainwashing" went a bit over the top with that. And the reason I thought you may not be familiar with the Godbluff album is becuase 1) You admit you don't like VdGG (so why would you take the time to really know a random album of theirs; in the same way, I've heard enough Dream Theater to know that I don't like them, but I can't tell you stuff about specific albums) and, 2) I asked you several posts ago about specific tunes on Godbluff and you didn't reply, although you've replied to other people's posts since then.
You're wrong about me being new here. I've posted quite a bit for two or three years now (maybe more). So you made a wrong assumption about that. If you've been listening to prog for 34 years, you're probably younger than me (I remember Tarkus and Trilogy and Yessongs, etc, when they came out; I started being hip to prog around '72/'73). I also wrote a book on VdGG and interviewed Peter Gabriel, Phil Collins, Armando Gallo (Genesis biographer), and Paul Whitehead (a close friend, who painted covers for both Genesis and VdGG).
And Undercover Man is not derivative of Bowie. It may sound like Bowie (I can understand that interpretation), but it's the other way around as far as who's being derivative. For a long time it's been known that Bowie is a Hammill fan and has been influenced by him, as has Gabriel who has stated "The one artist I'd like to base my career around is Peter Hammill."
Not that any of that should make you like Godbluff... it's totally fine that you don't (many of my own friends can't stand VdGG, so I get it)!
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jc
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bucka001
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Posted: April 01 2011 at 11:25 |
...oh, and I also interviewed John Anthony at length (who produced Nursery Cryme and several VdGG/Hammill albums). File this post in the shameless book plug department!
Paul Whitehead has been a dear friend of mine for several years. I can say that one thing Nursery Cryme has going for it (among many other things, definitely a good album) is that it's Paul's favorite album cover that he's ever worked on.
I interviewed Paul initially several years ago, and he spoke about Genesis, VdGG, and several other things. Check it out:
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jc
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: April 01 2011 at 11:26 |
bucka001 wrote:
[
Ivan, I don't know how you read my previous post, but I was agreeing with you and saying that I can find no fault with your opinion, VdGG, so I get it)! |
Not totally Bucka:
"But, Ivan, I thought it was equally ridiculous when you stated "The Musical Box guys!!!!!!!!"
I don't think its' ridiculous to compare what for me is the best song ever released with Goldbluff, even if Nursery Cryme was formed by The Musical Box and 7 other songs, still I would go with Nursery Cryme..
But I believe that at east Hogweed, Harold the Barrel and Fountain of Salmacis are also masterpieces.
Iván
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: April 01 2011 at 11:38 |
And I insist, I find "Undercover Man" extremely similar to parts to Space Oddity released in 1969 while Godbluff was released in 1975, so yes, I still believe Godbluff it's musically derivative from early Bowie..At least that's my impression.
Both Bowie and VDGG started releasing albums in 1969 and there's no connection between Space Oddity and Aerosol Grey Machine
Just a comment, I love Paul Whitehead's covers, but everything is so personal, that I find Trespass much more solid than any other Genesis cover independently of what Paul Whitehead thinks or likes, it's extremely beautiful.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 01 2011 at 11:43
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bucka001
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Posted: April 01 2011 at 11:40 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
bucka001 wrote:
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Ivan, I don't know how you read my previous post, but I was agreeing with you and saying that I can find no fault with your opinion, VdGG, so I get it)! |
Not totally Bucka:
"But, Ivan, I thought it was equally ridiculous when you stated "The Musical Box guys!!!!!!!!"
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Well, I see your point. To be honest, I think it is something akin to ridiculous (in a way that saying I don't like Fellni's films because I like decadance, humor, and grotesque imagery is ridiculous since it's all in there), but 'ridiculous' is probably too strong a word and more inflammatory than I intended.
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jc
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: April 01 2011 at 11:49 |
Don't worry Bucka, we all use strong terms that later I repent.
Now, I like complex elaborate music with a strong melody music, but I also need that X ingredient to make it perfect to my OWN PERSONAL TASTE, I find that ingredient in early Genesis and not in VDGG.
There's also an issue, even when Hammill is a great lyricist, I find .Genesis lyrics much more dramatic, and I like that.
BTW: I like and grotesque imagery but my favourite Fellini movie is "Il Viteloni", precisely the only one that escapes to those standards.  Being that he goes too far in movies like Rome and Satiricon
Iván
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Steven Brodziak
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Posted: April 01 2011 at 17:10 |
dr prog wrote:
Only a brainwashed Genesis fan would rate Nursery higher than Godbluff. Godbluff should be winning this thread comfortably |
Like Clint Eastwood said "Opinions are like a****les, everybody's got one".
Pink Floyd vs Genesis is still in the air. I have yet to vote in this poll and it seams Genesis is beating VDGG.
Is someone else going to do the Yes - Genesis poll? This all goes back to "Did Genesis create the best string of 5 albums Trespass-Lamb"
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Well, there it is. (Amadeus)
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Nursery Cryme VS Godbluff
