Americans Have No Culture - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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ExittheLemming View Drop Down

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Posted: May 23 2014 at 09:26

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

The idea that any geographical area inhabited by humans lacks culture is absurd.

You've never been to Wales have you? Wink

The T

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Posted: May 23 2014 at 09:27

ExittheLemming wrote:

The T wrote:

JJLehto wrote:

IDK I've always said we don't really have much of one.

It's never said directly, but isn't capitalism there to do away (to some extent not totally of course) with things like nationalism and culture?

In some ways it's good....past nationality, religion, language creed etc aren't supposed to matter here, we're that melting pot, You come here to make as much of a living as you can for your current and future families.

Basically our culture is capitalism, which has it's goods and bads, and kind of is an "anti culture" if you get what I mean. Also, we do have a long history of immigration that (despite the sour patches) always end up getting melted in.

Honestly, I think it's good we don't have much of a "culture" !

Musically though the US did have a unique culture there: blues and jazz. Sadly neither is relevant today, but we know the mighty influence of both. Also I may be wrong, but I thought experimentalism in music had a pretty good history in America.

I agree 90% with this; I just don’t think it is good not to have much of a culture or, worse, to have capitalism as your culture. Capitalism as economic system superior to Marxism-Leninism or Fascism is ok; capitalism as the driver and motor of life and values is not. I think this is the single most despised element of American culture outside of the US, even though to anyone who has lived or lives here it is evident that that is a somewhat incorrect generalization, an exaggeration, too.

I don't believe this from an intelligent and cultured man. Are you saying that culture is a bad or unhealthy thing? What do you consider constitutes 'culture'? Yes, economic systems could be inferred as 'shared behaviour and beliefs' but given the globalisation of the financial markets, such is no longer a localised phenomenon surely? (Socialism is no longer extant in any credible form in the first world)

I guess you are replying to Brian and not to me, am I right?

Edited by The T - May 23 2014 at 09:27

ExittheLemming View Drop Down

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Posted: May 23 2014 at 09:29

No, I'm replying to both of you really (as you both qualify as cultured in my book)

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Posted: May 23 2014 at 09:30

ExittheLemming wrote:

Tolerate the intolerant at your peril.

By being intolerant yourself? Oh joy, what a great place to live.

There is certainly a difference between picking a fight with a lone jackass & taking a stand against organized group intolerance. I'm for the later and against the former.

Ian

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Posted: May 23 2014 at 09:34

ExittheLemming wrote:

No, I'm replying to both of you really (as you both qualify as cultured in my book)

Well, my answer was already given. I don't think lack of a culture is good, at all, and I actually would cry if they defined my society's culture as capitalism. I know the US has its own culture though the country it's so spread out and unique, eclectic, that it's more localized cultures than an actual national one, in my opinion.

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Posted: May 23 2014 at 09:35

Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

ExittheLemming wrote:

Tolerate the intolerant at your peril.

By being intolerant yourself? Oh joy, what a great place to live.

There is certainly a difference between picking a fight with a lone jackass & taking a stand against organized group intolerance. I'm for the later and against the former.

Especially when people can carry 'em guns freely in some places Tongue

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: May 23 2014 at 09:35

ExittheLemming wrote:

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

The idea that any geographical area inhabited by humans lacks culture is absurd.

You've never been to Wales have you? Wink

I said inhabited by humans not sheep.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

ExittheLemming View Drop Down

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Posted: May 23 2014 at 09:38

Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

ExittheLemming wrote:

Tolerate the intolerant at your peril.

By being intolerant yourself? Oh joy, what a great place to live.

There is certainly a difference between picking a fight with a lone jackass & taking a stand against organized group intolerance. I'm for the later and against the former.

Hook line and sinker I'm afraid. You would allow a candidate to stand for election with an anti democracy manifesto in a democracy then feign surprise that if elected, he abolishes democratic elections. Grow up.

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Posted: May 23 2014 at 09:46

So now this guy David stood up to in the OP is an actual threat to democracy, running for public office, and fascism now reigns supreme? Damn, I should have made more of a stand on page 2.

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ExittheLemming View Drop Down

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Posted: May 23 2014 at 09:52

HolyMoly wrote:

So now this guy David stood up to in the OP is an actual threat to democracy, running for public office, and fascism now reigns supreme? Damn, I should have made more of a stand on page 2.

Of course not but history tells us that complacency can sometimes be misguided, that's all.

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Posted: May 23 2014 at 09:56

Atavachron wrote:

I'm no patriotic zealot but I nearly got into a fistfight today over some loudmouth who said this to someone else at an audible volume. He's an immigrant here who is normally fairly nice but has a problem with this "corrupt society". I said "Keep your sh*t opinions to yourself". This led to some shouting, I got in the guys face and told him I'd pull his teeth out. But what bothered me wasn't just his view, it was the fact that he thought he could say it and not have consequences. Freedom of speech doesn't mean you're not gonna have big problems when insulting an entire nation with little more than ignorant bitterness about a place with a huge multi-cultural tradition.

I'm confused. Understandable I guess because I'm not getting the full story here.

For example: I can't see that the one quote from him: "corrupt society" equates to the topic title of "Americans have no culture", or even to culture in general. However, since on first reading "Keep your sh*t to yourself" seems to be an aggressive and confrontational response then I guess there was more leading up to the exchange than simply that, and I assume the phrase "Americans have no culture" was uttered at some point in the overheard conversation.

Atavachron wrote:

So what of it? What exactly is "culture" as the term is used today; is it a synonym for 'sophisticated' or does it simply mean ethnic & national behaviors?

Speaking as an outsider who has spent only 12 or so weeks in the USA over a 10 year period...

The phrase "Americans have no culture" can of course be read three ways, and the first and perhaps least obvious is that the guy is saying "Americans are uncultured", and that's a glib generalisation that I'd probably take the fifth on if I had any sense, and then switch-on daytime reality TV programs...

The second is that American Culture (art), (i.e. the collection of arts and other manifestations of human intellectual achievements that are identifiably American) does not exist - and this is clearly false as others have pointed out. It has no clear identity of course, because that would be a stereotype, but you can identify it as being American.... take for example the humble doughnut (or donut if you must) - as a piece of confectioner's art it retains its German heritage in shape and form (Ich bin ein Berliner), yet once you see a Krispy Kreme doughnut there is no mistaking that it has become something uniquely American, like a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and re-runs of the The Dick Van Dyke Show.

The third is related to that, in that American Culture (social), as the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of American society, is defined by the various subcultures within, with each retaining some portion of their cultural identity but with some blending around the edges. American (social) culture has been described as a 'melting pot' and a 'salad bowl', and I think both are over-simplistic and for that wildly inaccurate - a 'melting pot' results in an homogenised single identity while each item in the 'salad bowl' retains its individual identity - America is like neither of those. Consider if you will a Tequila Sunrise - at the top you have the Tequila and Orange mix, at the bottom is pure Grenadine syrup, but between them is a graduated blend of the two. From what I have seen, American (social) culture is like that - there is a separation of the individual subcultures that make up the American society, but they have become "Americanised" to the extent that you cannot remove the Grenadine without taking some of the Tequila and Orange with you. What this means is that there is no one single American (social) culture, but wherever you look, and whatever sample you take, there will be an unique example of American culture.

Atavachron wrote:

Most importantly though, what are your feelings on confrontation? Usually no one wants to say anything or get involved-- is that always the best approach? Or is it sometimes important to stand up and say "You're an idiot and I'm not afraid to say it" .

One thing I have noticed over the years, both in real life and here on the PA, is that outsiders have to be very careful if they want to criticise America. You have to choose your words, your subject and your tone of voice very carefully. For the sake of a glib generalisation: American's tend to be quick on the defensive and intolerant of any criticism of their country, its people and, well... everything except their government really (but then only if you're essentially agreeing with whatever they are saying about the current administration). Americans are not unique in that respect, other nationals are also very defensive over any criticism of their native lands. That you would enter into a verbal confrontation over this does not surprise me, it's not something I (or most other Englishmen) would do, but then we are a self-deprecating nation and in the main we would agree with any critic, America is not and would not.

What?

ExittheLemming View Drop Down

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Posted: May 23 2014 at 10:02

Dean wrote:

Agreed. Such usually provokes a knee jerk reaction (and the only nation I have criticised in this thread is Australia, go figure)

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Posted: May 23 2014 at 10:15

ExittheLemming wrote:

Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

ExittheLemming wrote:

Tolerate the intolerant at your peril.

By being intolerant yourself? Oh joy, what a great place to live.

There is certainly a difference between picking a fight with a lone jackass & taking a stand against organized group intolerance. I'm for the later and against the former.

Doesn't sound much like a lone jackass to me, sounds like he has a political party supporting him, by definition if he get's elected, people voted for him & he's not lone. You are clearly using semantics to support your argument. I'll look for you in the pub picking a fight with the noisy drunk at the bar to 'save democracy' shall I?

Ian

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https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/

ExittheLemming View Drop Down

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Posted: May 23 2014 at 10:18

Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

ExittheLemming wrote:

Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

ExittheLemming wrote:

Tolerate the intolerant at your peril.

By being intolerant yourself? Oh joy, what a great place to live.

There is certainly a difference between picking a fight with a lone jackass & taking a stand against organized group intolerance. I'm for the later and against the former.

Agreed, the jackass is clearly not alone

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Posted: May 23 2014 at 10:32

ExittheLemming wrote:

Dean wrote:

Agreed. Such usually provokes a knee jerk reaction (and the only nation I have criticised in this thread is Australia, go figure)

And, again, us first-generation immigrants (who came at an age where we could already make judgments and comparisons) are in a unique position to be able to talk about what we see and what we don't like, yet are the ones that get the utterly stupid "oh he's an immigrant and he's criticizing America, oh the hypocrisy, oh the parasitism". Blind adoration of a flag and an army is maybe part of this difficult-to-define thing known as American culture... of some Americans

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Posted: May 23 2014 at 10:35

The greatest thing about America is that everyone has the inalienable right to be stupid, ignorant and primitive. More cultured societies deal with their nutcases in a far more truculent way (social tiers, old boy networks, meritocracies based on history). America is the land of the extremes, on the same road you will meet the most brilliant minds as well as the dumbest cavemen anywhere. Traditional societies with long histories perhaps have 'culture' , which invariably is based on a long track record of successes and failures. America remains , perhaps only inspirationally a terra firma for those who yearn for a better life. Europeans just know that with every two steps forward there is always one step back.

Being such a new role model, the youngish attitude of seeing everything in black or white (no pun intended) is contrasted by the 50 shades of grey suspicions of more experienced societies. This binary , media-fueled view of everything often leads to America's greatest weakness= the inherent right of each citizen to express their views (which is fine) but often adding judgment, accusation and punishment without any depth of proof, any understanding of cause and reason, but mostly with unbridled haste and nastiness (see the OJ Simpson scenario) .

Also, I know its a touchy domain but the right to bear arms (in its unprotected current form) is what leads so many to wonder if westerns are really passe !

Quick on the trigger, them there cowboys Wink

Edited by tszirmay - May 23 2014 at 10:48

I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.

ExittheLemming View Drop Down

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Posted: May 23 2014 at 11:02

The T wrote:

ExittheLemming wrote:

Dean wrote:

Agreed. Such usually provokes a knee jerk reaction (and the only nation I have criticised in this thread is Australia, go figure)

Although shared or localised indigenous beliefs and practices is not carved in stone with regards to any definition of culture, it seems readily apparent that our notions of what constitutes culture is prey to the sort of cherry-picking that would distance the likes of venal and crass media exploitation to the hinterland of acceptability versus the more palatable aspirations of any avowedly progressive demographic. Pamela Anderson and Schoenberg both qualify as cultural phenomena and both deserve acknowledgement as such. As to to the value of either we ultimately get the culture we deserve.

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Posted: May 23 2014 at 12:00

Why would you stand up and prove that you actually care what an ignorant jackass says? As for the rest of the OP, seems like we've already covered what needed to be covered, starting with the meaning of "culture" in the given context. I would ignore everything he said, just not care at all because the things your immigrant pal is concerned about are not my problem.

Edited by Dayvenkirq - May 23 2014 at 12:03

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Posted: May 23 2014 at 20:10

^ That's so easy to say-- and yes, sometimes I do care what an ignorant jackass thinks or more importantly, says. I don't care or can control what someone thinks nor woul;d I want to. But what you utter, well that's a whole other thing. n You must take responsibility for what you do and say.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy

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Posted: May 23 2014 at 20:16

Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

It's a pretty stupid statement but sounds like you need to work more on your anger issues. If something as trivial as that can get you hot and bothered maybe you should just back the f**k off.

Seriously who gives a flying F what someone else thinks. I've lived in the USA for 15 years, I'm a citizen, and have no plans to leave, but some yanks seriously get their panties in a bunch about mindless stuff. And yes I'm critical of my home country as well.

People have opinions, many of them mindless, grow a skin and live with it.

I do need to work on my anger issues. But at least I have a spine, a pair of balls to go with it, and can live with myself.

"Who care s what someone else thinks" is such a tired old mindless attitude it no longer has any credibility. Think up something new and get back to me.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy