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dennismoore View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2012 at 09:18
[QUOTE=Dayvenkirq] . No, seriously, if you were interacting with a young girl who is into teen-pop, /QUOTE]

In that case they would probably arrest you.LOL

About Tarkus....

When we are standing in front of the mona lisa or sistene chapel or statue of david....

You will tell me those are not masterpieces and perfect works to present art to someone???

Tarkus is kinda like that you see! Wink  LOL





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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2012 at 09:27
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

Originally posted by ole-the-first ole-the-first wrote:

In the Court of the Crimson King is the definitive prog album (and very accessible at the same time), so it should be a good intro.


Waaay too old Grandpa.  If the person is 70 then fine, if not they will think you are some Flower Power Hippie Freak,
which is not cool to today's generation.  Not sure if that ever was cool...

+1. KC's debut has some lengthy songs with lots of instrumental stuff, so it's hard for me to classify it as an accessible record if I were, say, a country girl. But if you do take in account the "definitive" aspect, he is right.


Nobody tells me about all the secret code used around here.  WTF is  "+1"???

@
Dayvenkirq,

I was just having fun with ole-the-first,Wink but he appears to have vanished...Shocked

Obviously there is not definitive choice here.  I am a silly English Bandit who steals flowers, but I am not completely
stupid.LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2012 at 10:12
Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

. No, seriously, if you were interacting with a young girl who is into teen-pop,

In that case they would probably arrest you.LOL
About Tarkus....
When we are standing in front of the mona lisa or sistene chapel or statue of david....
You will tell me those are not masterpieces and perfect works to present art to someone???
Tarkus is kinda like that you see! Wink  LOL
Are you implying that most of the youngsters in the world, or at least in the US, are into Renaissance art? Because I'm not.

BTW, come on, you know ... +1 ! ... like in Google!


Edited by Dayvenkirq - March 31 2012 at 10:13
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2012 at 10:48
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:


But what if we pick teens who are Taylor Swift or Justin Bieber fans? LOL . No, seriously, if you were interacting with a young girl who is into teen-pop, what would you offer to convince her that prog isn't lame and pointless?


You do not try to initiate a teen listening to Taylor Swift to prog.  See if she likes something a little more sophisticated within pop first...maybe Fiona Apple.   You might then see if she can break into Radiohead.  If that works too, then maybe Pink Floyd. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2012 at 22:30
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:


But what if we pick teens who are Taylor Swift or Justin Bieber fans? LOL . No, seriously, if you were interacting with a young girl who is into teen-pop, what would you offer to convince her that prog isn't lame and pointless?


You do not try to initiate a teen listening to Taylor Swift to prog.  See if she likes something a little more sophisticated within pop first...maybe Fiona Apple.   You might then see if she can break into Radiohead.  If that works too, then maybe Pink Floyd. 

Clever point Smile .


Edited by Dayvenkirq - March 31 2012 at 22:30
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2012 at 07:09
I think I would probably pick a Spock's Album too, as suggested by somebody on the first page (involving the risk of making me unpopular with my second post in this forum ;) ). They're very accessible, have great melodies and are fun. Also, Porcupine Tree seems to offer a few albums that seem to serve rather well (e.g. Lightbulb Sun, In Absentia or Deadwing, depending of what the person in question listens to). Also I think a Live album or DVD is often more appropriate than a single album, since they mostly offer the best or most popular songs by a band from more than one output, which makes it easier to pick out favourites and than choose an album accordingly.

I have seen Yes and ELP suggested here, that's certainly not something I would do. It took me quite some time to  appreciate these bands as they sound quite eccentric and not really up to date. I love John Anderson's voice now, or the freaky beginning of close to the edge, but it seems to alienate most people that I know when I show it to them. I even was in a car once with about six people who listen to modern prog exclusively on our way to the Steven Wilson concert, and when a friend put on And You And I there were many wry looks and nobody was really able to make use of it. And this song is not one of Yes' more obscure songs.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2012 at 14:32
Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Tarkus tells you everything about prog. Classic symph prog with a very easy to understand title track.




Dude, how can you be so right on this one and so wrong on Chester Thompson fumbling his way through
live Dance On A Volcano???

I think you found the perfect prog introduction record.

ELP - Tarkus.  Cool
 
Thanks (I thinkConfused)
 
For the benefit of people who don't hang on every word I type (misguided fools that they beWink) I just said Chester Thompson was 'fine' on the Seconds Out version of DOAV and he is.Collins does give the toms a good battering on the studio version and it also seems slower and more stately..so its just different. I expect they upped the tempo on the live version so it just can't be played the same way. Funnily enough this also happened when ELP played Tarkus liveTongue
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2012 at 07:16
Choosing just one record means omitting all the others.  I'd say choose the best compilation out there, whatever that may be.
It'd work as an introduction (which is what the OP asked for), and then afterwards the listener could hear other albums based on which compilation tracks they preferred.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2012 at 13:57
The Yes Album would be an excellent starting point. If you want something more modern, try The Flower Kings -- Stardust We Are
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2012 at 14:45
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

What is the best record as an introduction to prog-rock?

I have a clue how to answer this question: something accessible, non-embarrassing, and quintessential of the genre. It all depends on the user: either "Dark Side of the Moon" or "Red." Gee, if I had to choose, ... let it be "Dark Side of the Moon."

What do you think?
 
I would probably start with ... NONE!
 
It will shock the audience and then you can move along ... the progressive movement is not something that came and went by our whims or some weird design of what music was or was supposed to become in the future ... like you and I already "knew" ...
 
This didn't start then, and the "progressive" phenomenon is not arbitrary based of one album, but was about the time and place, the music, the arts, the literature, the movies, the theater ... and what was happening at the time.
 
Anything else is superfluous and ... I think it reduces everything to Cliff Notes mentality for the masses! And the bad part? ... you can't have progressive music in a state of Cliff Notes! All of us would start the revolution all over again and probably call it Revolution #10 now ...
 
I think you have to make people aware of history better ... otherwise ... let's see ... do you go around saying that you listen to Beethoven because he was from the "romantic period"? .... and do you know anything, history wise about that time that helps you define that term and definition? ... now you know why I would like a much more quotidian study and definition for the term. You know the word, and you don't even know what it refers to or it means!
 
I say, EDUCATE ... instead of giving them just words and make it look like we know something ... that sometimes we don't ... we just have favorites!
 
 


Edited by moshkito - April 02 2012 at 15:17
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2012 at 23:45
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

What is the best record as an introduction to prog-rock?

I have a clue how to answer this question: something accessible, non-embarrassing, and quintessential of the genre. It all depends on the user: either "Dark Side of the Moon" or "Red." Gee, if I had to choose, ... let it be "Dark Side of the Moon."

What do you think?
 
I would probably start with ... NONE!
 
It will shock the audience and then you can move along ... the progressive movement is not something that came and went by our whims or some weird design of what music was or was supposed to become in the future ... like you and I already "knew" ...
 
This didn't start then, and the "progressive" phenomenon is not arbitrary based of one album, but was about the time and place, the music, the arts, the literature, the movies, the theater ... and what was happening at the time.
 
Anything else is superfluous and ... I think it reduces everything to Cliff Notes mentality for the masses! And the bad part? ... you can't have progressive music in a state of Cliff Notes! All of us would start the revolution all over again and probably call it Revolution #10 now ...
 
I think you have to make people aware of history better ... otherwise ... let's see ... do you go around saying that you listen to Beethoven because he was from the "romantic period"? .... and do you know anything, history wise about that time that helps you define that term and definition? ... now you know why I would like a much more quotidian study and definition for the term. You know the word, and you don't even know what it refers to or it means!
 
I say, EDUCATE ... instead of giving them just words and make it look like we know something ... that sometimes we don't ... we just have favorites!


A tiny bit of what you've said is a bit over my head, but I think I got the general idea. And I very much like your point. However, I think you can throw us a name, answer to the best of your ability, even if it won't work for everyone. You may consider any standards you want since it looks like there are lots of things I haven't foreseen when writing the OP.

So far these are perhaps the best answers that I've read:

Originally posted by Stool Man Stool Man wrote:

Choosing just one record means omitting all the others.  I'd say choose the best compilation out there, whatever that may be. 
It'd work as an introduction (which is what the OP asked for), and then afterwards the listener could hear other albums based on which compilation tracks they preferred.

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

I say, EDUCATE ... instead of giving them just words and make it look like we know something ... that sometimes we don't ... we just have favorites!




Edited by Dayvenkirq - April 02 2012 at 23:47
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2012 at 23:57
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Tarkus tells you everything about prog. Classic symph prog with a very easy to understand title track.


But then you have to skip Bitches Crystal, The Only Way, Jeremy Bender, Are You Ready Eddy...everything but the title track and Infinite Space.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2012 at 14:48
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

...
A tiny bit of what you've said is a bit over my head, but I think I got the general idea. And I very much like your point. However, I think you can throw us a name, answer to the best of your ability, even if it won't work for everyone. You may consider any standards you want since it looks like there are lots of things I haven't foreseen when writing the
....
 
Then I failed.
 
Again, one album or piece of music did not change the sun and the moon on a given day ... and for us to think that it did is ... weird!
 
It was a product of the time and place, and you can go as far back as the mopheads and what not ... but too many other arts had already been doing the progressive thing to a very extreme degree. You never saw the "Living Theater" do live experiments like only the Grateful Dead and Allman Brothers did .... you never saw the "National Theater of the Deaf" ... do improvisations in mime to rock music .... you never saw the ETC La Mama group ... use film for their "set" with the story in front of it for Carmilla ... talk about multi-media! And of course, you may know Tarantino, but you never saw Godard (or Weekend so you can appreciate Pulp Friction even better!) who was the ultimate free form spokesperson for film with more weirdness than anything you ever heard on vinyl, cassette or cd! But then, not many folks appreciate the incredible musicianship required for DT to do what they did with an Orchestra ... only master musicians have that ability ... but it doesn't matter ... only "prog" matters!
 
You have to see a bit beyond the "music" ... as people are not that isolated from the arts ... it's like me saying that you don't know movies, books or theater, or tv or anything ... you only know "progressive" ... and that is not true at all.
 
There is a lot more to life than just ... one thing! ... or we're definitly in a time warp of some kind! And a time warp on one word/idea? ... goodness ... you know how many writers have written about that in the last couple of thousands of years?


Edited by moshkito - April 03 2012 at 14:55
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2012 at 16:09
@ Moshkito:
While it's all nice and well to know the backgrounds, boundary-transcending influences and dynamics of any musical style I don't really understand what this has to do with the topic. Of course "progressive rock" was a movement of that time and it's good to see beyond the limits of music and look at the surroundings (like with any other musical period/genre), but in truth, after the initial movement passed, we put a label on it to make it easier to speak about certain bands that played a similar style of music (as we do with every musical period).

So if one comes to me and asks me what this "progressive rock" thing is that people talk about, and what it sounds like, why not give him an album that you might consider more or less representative for what other such bands played at that time? And wasn't that what this topic was about in the first place?

Or maybe I'm getting it all wrong, I'm not even sure if I completely understand your posts, e.g. the Beethoven comparison (if you want to label him he was late classical/first Viennese school). Of course the boundaries were all imposed on the music later on, but we still use them, and they're IMHO useful. Like if somebody doesn't know Domeniconi Scarlatti, you can tell him he was from the classical period, and he'll know more. Or if somebody wants to get to know the music of that period better, you can give him the second Beethoven Symphony, or Mozart's c-minor mass, or an early Haydn string quartet, and he'll have a clue of how it could sound the next time somebody mentions music from that period. Of course it would be nice if he knew about the influences from architecture and painting and enlightenment as well, but he has a nice point to start with with the works above, why not do the same with prog?  After all the Thread Starter asked about an album as an introduction and not a detailed explanation of the whole movement?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2012 at 01:10
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Tarkus tells you everything about prog. Classic symph prog with a very easy to understand title track.


But then you have to skip Bitches Crystal, The Only Way, Jeremy Bender, Are You Ready Eddy...everything but the title track and Infinite Space.
They are very easy to skip thoughWink
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2012 at 01:13
Originally posted by Desert_Storm Desert_Storm wrote:

@ Moshkito:
While it's all nice and well to know the backgrounds, boundary-transcending influences and dynamics of any musical style I don't really understand what this has to do with the topic. Of course "progressive rock" was a movement of that time and it's good to see beyond the limits of music and look at the surroundings (like with any other musical period/genre), but in truth, after the initial movement passed, we put a label on it to make it easier to speak about certain bands that played a similar style of music (as we do with every musical period).

So if one comes to me and asks me what this "progressive rock" thing is that people talk about, and what it sounds like, why not give him an album that you might consider more or less representative for what other such bands played at that time? And wasn't that what this topic was about in the first place?

Or maybe I'm getting it all wrong, I'm not even sure if I completely understand your posts, e.g. the Beethoven comparison (if you want to label him he was late classical/first Viennese school). Of course the boundaries were all imposed on the music later on, but we still use them, and they're IMHO useful. Like if somebody doesn't know Domeniconi Scarlatti, you can tell him he was from the classical period, and he'll know more. Or if somebody wants to get to know the music of that period better, you can give him the second Beethoven Symphony, or Mozart's c-minor mass, or an early Haydn string quartet, and he'll have a clue of how it could sound the next time somebody mentions music from that period. Of course it would be nice if he knew about the influences from architecture and painting and enlightenment as well, but he has a nice point to start with with the works above, why not do the same with prog?  After all the Thread Starter asked about an album as an introduction and not a detailed explanation of the whole movement?
I look forward to your future posts. You very eloquently put Moshkito in his place there whereas I would just have been rude tbhSmile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2012 at 12:52
Originally posted by Desert_Storm Desert_Storm wrote:

@ Moshkito:
While it's all nice and well to know the backgrounds, boundary-transcending influences and dynamics of any musical style I don't really understand what this has to do with the topic. Of course "progressive rock" was a movement of that time and it's good to see beyond the limits of music and look at the surroundings (like with any other musical period/genre), but in truth, after the initial movement passed, we put a label on it to make it easier to speak about certain bands that played a similar style of music (as we do with every musical period).
...
 
I would suggest that "after the initial movement" ... things changed to something else ... that (sometimes) we do not consider "progressive".
 
Originally posted by Desert_Storm Desert_Storm wrote:

...
So if one comes to me and asks me what this "progressive rock" thing is that people talk about, and what it sounds like, why not give him an album that you might consider more or less representative for what other such bands played at that time? And wasn't that what this topic was about in the first place?
...
 
I do this, even with my neighbor, who loves music and then saw all those LP's and CD's and he went ... wow ... what is all that? I told him that it was music, just like the stuff he likes, but it is from different places in the world, and sometimes called this or that or this or that ... and he said ... can I hear some?
 
And he liked YES, though he had heard "Roundabout" and had it in his collection, but did not know the band.
 
You know what it feels like to me sometimes? ... it's almost like we're telling folks that "progressive" is like ... if you want to go to San Francisco, be sure to wear flowers in your hair ... " and some folks are not going to like that and think that is stupid and crazy! I'm not a hippy!
 
So, in a way, I prefer to take that part out, with the inevitable problem that by being "quotidian" I am placing this in the middle of that "flowers in your hair" thing ... and the difference is ... there were a lot of people that did really good music ... and we just have not met those people, or that music.
 
Originally posted by Desert_Storm Desert_Storm wrote:

...
  After all the Thread Starter asked about an album as an introduction and not a detailed explanation of the whole movement?
 
It's like seeing a forest instead of one tree, or vice versa. I'm not sure that you can "exemplify" a concept with one album or one band. That is really an uneducated idea that your own professor and instructor is going to hammer you on. You can use it as an example, But your professor is going to say ... that's one example ... let's have more showing this and this and this and that ... which you did not show.
 
I get the issue ... make it simple stupid ... but sometimes, all you are doing is hurting the very lover and thing you want to protect and love ... and you have to help it better than that ... and I like to say ... "educate" ... rather than sound like some expert that thinks they know music better than anyone else ... none of us do ... besides suggesting that the musicians are too stupid to create their own work and not use a pre-defined process to create something ... and that is another story!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2012 at 14:24
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I look forward to your future posts. You very eloquently put Moshkito in his place there whereas I would just have been rude tbhSmile

Thanks a lot for the eloquence compliment :) It wasn't my intention to put somebody in his place, I was just not sure if I understood what Moshkito said, and if I did, I disagree.

And it seems it doesn't get any better here Confused
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

I would suggest that "after the initial movement" ... things changed to something else ... that (sometimes) we do not consider "progressive".
 

So the music those bands played can't be called progressive anymore?
Quote You know what it feels like to me sometimes? ... it's almost like we're telling folks that "progressive" is like ... if you want to go to San Francisco, be sure to wear flowers in your hair ... " and some folks are not going to like that and think that is stupid and crazy! I'm not a hippy!
So, in a way, I prefer to take that part out, with the inevitable problem that by being "quotidian" I am placing this in the middle of that "flowers in your hair" thing ...
Sorry, I completely fail to understand that
Quote there were a lot of people that did really good music ... and we just have not met those people, or that music

Of course there were, of course we haven't. What has that got to do with it?
Originally posted by Moshkito Moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Desert_Storm Desert_Storm wrote:

 After all the Thread Starter asked about an album as an introduction and not a detailed explanation of the whole movement?
It's like seeing a forest instead of one tree, or vice versa. I'm not sure that you can "exemplify" a concept with one album or one band. That is really an uneducated idea that your own professor and instructor is going to hammer you on.

Well thanks for calling my ideas uneducated. By the way, what you say my professor (whoever you mean, I didn't know you knew I study or what or with whom) would "hammer me on", I'm sorry to disappoint you, but picking examples to explain the big with the small or the general with the particular is exactly what we do where I study. A professor wants to explain the, let's say baroque variation form and he starts with showing us Bach's Goldberg Variations. After we analyse it, we look what it has in common with other variation works from that time and whats different, and thus get a picture how to stake off the respective genre. This is very common in music, I've read tons of books about musical morphology and analysis and about every author that comes to my mind uses this method. So you're still free to disagree with the complete methodology but if you want to do that and still be taken seriously I would like to know a little something about your background.
By the way, after typing this, it comes to my mind that it was absolutely superfluous. Taking examples to explain something is used all the time in all disciplines and in real life. Look at anything you want. In physics we teach gravity by throwing one example object on the floor and examine how it falls. In Language we pick one correct or incorrect example sentence to show what's grammatically/logically/whatever right or wrong. In biology we watch one example plant or animal develop and thus explain evolution. Look at the children: "Mommy, what are rocks?", and the mother will pick up some random rocks from the ground and say "those things". Should she better say "Well, that depends, there are many concepts regarding the definition of what is a rock and what not, and in each concepts there are many different materials in many different forms that qualify as rocks, so showing you one would not help you at all" ? Come on, it's ridiculous.
Quote You can use it as an example, But your professor is going to say ... that's one example ... let's have more showing this and this and this and that ... which you did not show.

Of course multiple examples are better than one, but that was not the point. The point is that if you don't have multiple, one is infinitely better than none.
Quote I get the issue ... make it simple stupid ...

That was not what I was doing (or anyone else here that I saw), it's not what anyone is asking you to do, and I take it as quite rude.


Edited by Desert_Storm - April 04 2012 at 14:26
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2012 at 15:08
Marillion - Marbles
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2012 at 16:08
From a Pop perspective - MAybe Peter Gabriel
MEtal perspective - DT
Rock perspective - Porcupine tree
Jazz - Santana perhaps

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