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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: July 28 2011 at 14:59 |
DavetheSlave wrote:
I remember being almost ostracised for my music taste in school for enjoying Yes, Floyd, Sabbath, Heep etc, - the other kids had the Stones, Donny Osmond, David Cassidy, the Beatles and later Kiss emblazened on their school bags etc.
It was almost as if my preferences added a kind of mystique to me and my mates - lol.
It was so easy to categorise music back then - Underground, Pop, Jazz or Classical.
The pop lovers were a different breed to the Underground music lovers.
Later it became Rock, Metal, Punk, Disco, Jazz and Classical.
Now - Holy Moly - Progarchives alone has more categories than their were types of music back then.
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Trying not to be rude here, you're too young to make such generalisations Dave, and even though I'm 3 years older, I'm also a year or two too young aswell. Any kid in the 70s with Osmonds and Cassidy on their school bag would never have listened to The Stones, Beatles or Kiss ... as Bowie says in All The Young Dudes; "My Brother's back at home with his Beatles and his Stones, we never got it off on that revolution stuff, what a drag, too many snags" - there was an age gap, and younger siblings never listened to the music of their older brothers and sisters - the listening range was two to three years for each type of artist regardless of whether they were Pop, Rock or Underground. Access to music was similarily restricted to very narrow time spans, unless it was extremely sucessful an album released in 1969 would have been deleted from the catalogues by 1972, which made true underground music extremely difficult to obtain - take something like Capability Brown or Clouds - if you didn't buy it within 6 months of it being released then you'd never have seen it in the record shops. Even ELO's (very Prog) 1971 debut was nigh on impossible to find by the time they hit the big time with A New World Record in 1976
Similarily among kids that were into Progressive Rock (and yes, in England in 1970-76 that's exactly what we called it, just because it took the rest of the world 6 to 30 years to catch-up it's not our fault) and Underground music there was a hireachy of cool that would never have put Yes, Floyd, Sabbath and Heep into the same bag either. Groups of kids that were into one type of Underground music would never countenance their music being compared to another type of Underground music, just as they would never dream of doing that today.
Time has blurred our memories - then was no different to now.
Your categoraisations from that time are a little vague and not exactly accurate - we had heavy rock, progressive rock, blues rock, progressive blues, psychedelic rock, acid rock, space rock, country rock, techno-rock (I remember Yes being called this and techno-flash at one point), head music, jazz-rock, glam rock, funk-rock, electronic, bubble-rock, stomp rock, pub-rock, etc., etc., etc.
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What?
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ghost_of_morphy
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2755
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Posted: July 28 2011 at 15:52 |
I was for The Who's inclusion based upon Entwistle's pervasive influence and their tendency to go for epic compositions. I did not object to Queen's inclusion either. Another thing that surprises me is that bands with even better reasons for inclusion in related or proto get rejected due to the prejudices of certain people. I have Boston in mind here, although the long time that it took to get Todd Rundgren in is another instance.
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ghost_of_morphy
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2755
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Posted: July 28 2011 at 15:54 |
Atavachron wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
As much as I was weaned on Sabbath up to Technical Ecstasy, I was very surprised to see them on PA as 'Prog Related' - hugely influential on heavy rock and metal yes, but the discernible Sabbath elements that can be found in some fully fledged prog are simply those same heavy rock and metal ingredients that Prog musicians and fans happen to like. You're married to your wife but you ain't related to her....(I hope ) |
true but at the time Sabbath was very much a progressive - or progressing - rock band; early metal itself was a form of progressive rock in the sense that it came out of the psych/blues movement and was indulging in longer, more complex ideas with arty imagery. As well, I believe Prog Related doesn't always indicate influence on, but participation in, the progression of rock as art (but that's my interpretation of a vague category)
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It is so easy to confuse progressive music as a genre with progressive music as an attitude.
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ghost_of_morphy
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2755
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Posted: July 28 2011 at 15:58 |
DavetheSlave wrote:
Where does one draw the line though? I could argue that Grand Funk Railroad probably deserve to be represented here as they were the US's answer to Black Sabbath etc and their music (their older music) definately wasn't mainstream back then.
I have accepted that but am still very bitter about the fact that Stratovarius isn't represented on the Site and the arguments will always be - if they are represented then how come another is not.
Never in my wildest dreams would I place ELO amongst my own personal progressive collection. They were categorised as pop music back in the day and I personally agree with that.
The Beatles are here yet the Rolling Stones aren't?
I'm not saying that the Stones should be here but if the one is given exposure how come not the other when they were so closely related back in the day. One was the antithesis almost of the other.
As I said - where do we draw the line?
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It's all in how you define prog. You can define prog as a genre, or as in attitude challenging the conventions of a genre, or as including a few stylistic elements that contribute to progressive music.
It'd be hard to include the Stones unless you went to the third and weakest definition. But that's how Jefferson Airplane got in, so don't be surprised if it happens.
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ghost_of_morphy
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2755
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Posted: July 28 2011 at 15:59 |
Manuel wrote:
Warthur wrote:
I wasn't too impressed with ELO's debut - some of the Beatles homage seemed to sail dangerously close to plagiarism to my mind - but I really like Eldorado. |
Same with me. I think El Dorado is their best album, but after that, they took a more commercial approach to their music, and I eventually lost interest in the band . |
Honestly, ELO was one of those few bands that became more interesting after selling out.
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11420
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Posted: July 28 2011 at 16:14 |
To be fair I think David(Atavachron) concedes by implication that 'Prog' has never been a freestanding genre c/f Reggae, Blues, Metal, Rap, Techno, Jazz etc and that the only demarcation criteria we can use for artists on PA might just boil down to them having a demonstrably progressive attitude towards their music's development. BTW I'm assuming by 'progressive music' you mean what we call 'Prog? (e.g. Ornette Coleman is clearly progressive music but it ain't Prog)
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ghost_of_morphy
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2755
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Posted: July 28 2011 at 16:24 |
M@x has wisely chosen to be quite inclusive for the bands he lists here. It is up to you how you define prog. I define it as a genre.
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Progosopher
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 12 2009
Location: Coolwood
Status: Offline
Points: 6472
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Posted: July 28 2011 at 17:50 |
Dean wrote:
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as Bowie says in All The Young Dudes; " My Brother's back at home with his Beatles and his Stones, we never got it off on that revolution stuff, what a drag, too many snags" - there was an age gap, and younger siblings never listened to the music of their older brothers and sisters - the listening range was two to three years for each type of artist regardless of whether they were Pop, Rock or Underground. [/QUOTE]
I can attest to this. My sister was six years older than me and into Elton John, The Beach Boys, and The Beatles when I was listening to Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, Rainbow, and Black Sabbath. I used to hate her tastes in music, but these artists I have come to enjoy and respect.  I can't say the same about The Bay City Rollers, though. 
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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65602
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Posted: July 28 2011 at 21:00 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
To be fair I think David(Atavachron) concedes by implication that 'Prog' has never been a freestanding genre c/f Reggae, Blues, Metal, Rap, Techno, Jazz etc and that the only demarcation criteria we can use for artists on PA might just boil down to them having a demonstrably progressive attitude towards their music's development.
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yes, but I was also alluding to the fact that, according to some in the
music intelligentsia (which I don't always subscribe to), hard rock/metal was indeed an offshoot of Prog, and that
"...Heavy
Rock as a style grew out of Progressive Rock sometime in the early
1970s. The trend setters were Deep Purple and Black
Sabbath ". That quote is from the notes in the Warhorse reissue, and represents a lost but fascinating perspective suggesting there is a deeper relation between Prog and Metal than generally assumed
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esky
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 12 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 643
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Posted: July 29 2011 at 09:58 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
A couple come to mind for me: ELO and Kraftwerk. I wasn't really big into either of these but I had Out Of The Blue and Autobahn. When I became a big prog fan, I didn't keep up with either. So it was years between me moving on and joining this site. When I saw they were here I was surprised, but I still don't have any interest in getting back into them. Of course if any fans want to convince me... |
You're insincere, and I don't believe you. And I have no desire to convince you.
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Formentera Lady
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 20 2010
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 1840
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Posted: July 29 2011 at 10:32 |
octopus-4 wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
A couple come to mind for me: ELO and Kraftwerk. I wasn't really big into either of these but I had Out Of The Blue and Autobahn. When I became a big prog fan, I didn't keep up with either. So it was years between me moving on and joining this site. When I saw they were here I was surprised, but I still don't have any interest in getting back into them. Of course if any fans want to convince me...
| Same for me |
Same with me! ELO was introduced to me by my older brother (who also introduced me to Genesis), while I heard Kraftwerk a lot from my class mates. Both happened in the late 70's. After a short period of listening I lost interest and moved on. Last year I discovered this site and am surprised to find both bands again. Also I am surprised to find Deep Purple, Black Sabbath and Metallica here, and not to find The Grateful Dead and Velvet Underground.
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akamaisondufromage
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: May 16 2009
Location: Blighty
Status: Offline
Points: 6797
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Posted: July 29 2011 at 10:51 |
Iron Maiden. I never concidered them anything other than a metal / rock band with a rather nifty looking monster thingy. I never had any interest in them and I don't have any interest in them now. So I will never find out why they are here.
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Help me I'm falling!
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DavetheSlave
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2007
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 492
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Posted: July 29 2011 at 10:55 |
Dean wrote:
DavetheSlave wrote:
I remember being almost ostracised for my music taste in school for enjoying Yes, Floyd, Sabbath, Heep etc, - the other kids had the Stones, Donny Osmond, David Cassidy, the Beatles and later Kiss emblazened on their school bags etc.
It was almost as if my preferences added a kind of mystique to me and my mates - lol.
It was so easy to categorise music back then - Underground, Pop, Jazz or Classical.
The pop lovers were a different breed to the Underground music lovers.
Later it became Rock, Metal, Punk, Disco, Jazz and Classical.
Now - Holy Moly - Progarchives alone has more categories than their were types of music back then.
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Trying not to be rude here, you're too young to make such generalisations Dave, and even though I'm 3 years older, I'm also a year or two too young aswell. Any kid in the 70s with Osmonds and Cassidy on their school bag would never have listened to The Stones, Beatles or Kiss ... as Bowie says in All The Young Dudes; "My Brother's back at home with his Beatles and his Stones, we never got it off on that revolution stuff, what a drag, too many snags" - there was an age gap, and younger siblings never listened to the music of their older brothers and sisters - the listening range was two to three years for each type of artist regardless of whether they were Pop, Rock or Underground. Access to music was similarily restricted to very narrow time spans, unless it was extremely sucessful an album released in 1969 would have been deleted from the catalogues by 1972, which made true underground music extremely difficult to obtain - take something like Capability Brown or Clouds - if you didn't buy it within 6 months of it being released then you'd never have seen it in the record shops. Even ELO's (very Prog) 1971 debut was nigh on impossible to find by the time they hit the big time with A New World Record in 1976
Similarily among kids that were into Progressive Rock (and yes, in England in 1970-76 that's exactly what we called it, just because it took the rest of the world 6 to 30 years to catch-up it's not our fault) and Underground music there was a hireachy of cool that would never have put Yes, Floyd, Sabbath and Heep into the same bag either. Groups of kids that were into one type of Underground music would never countenance their music being compared to another type of Underground music, just as they would never dream of doing that today.
Time has blurred our memories - then was no different to now.
Your categoraisations from that time are a little vague and not exactly accurate - we had heavy rock, progressive rock, blues rock, progressive blues, psychedelic rock, acid rock, space rock, country rock, techno-rock (I remember Yes being called this and techno-flash at one point), head music, jazz-rock, glam rock, funk-rock, electronic, bubble-rock, stomp rock, pub-rock, etc., etc., etc. |
That was probably your reality Dean bust you have to understand that we vector from different countries and the reality that I posted was the way it was here. My very first albums were Very Eavy, Very Umble and Black Sabbath both given to me for xmas when I was 11 years old or very close to thereabouts. We had a record shop in a place called Hillbrow called Hillbrow Records that specialised in "Underground" as I knew it and in that category I would find Uriah Heep, Black Sabbath, Gomorrah, Neu, Yes, ELP, Wishbone Ash etc etc.
I used to listen to Radio Nederlands on an old valve radio to their Underground Radio programme on Sunday nights and they played anything from Black Sabbath to Pink Floyd albums. There was a similar programme on radio Swazi that I used to love. I was best friends with Steven Woodward who's father was friendly with Trevor Rabin's family as well as with Manfred Mann and I met them through Steven on many occasions.
South Africa was a very different place to many other countries and unless a person knew where to look a lot of music and other things were kind of unavailable. I remember asking for Rush on one occasion after the 2112 release at a record shop (not Hillbrow records) and being looked at like I was strange by the owner.
We were shown Partridge family movies in our school hall every Saturday morning in around 1970 as well as Voyage to the bottom of the sea and the Avengers and if we were caught holding a girls hand during those Saturday morning sessions there was a whole heap of trouble.
Edited by DavetheSlave - July 29 2011 at 11:06
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Formentera Lady
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 20 2010
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 1840
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Posted: July 29 2011 at 11:03 |
DavetheSlave wrote:
I was best friends with Steven Woodward who's father was friendly with Trevor Rabin's family as well as with Manfred Mann and I met them through Steven on many occasions.
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Wow!
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DavetheSlave
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2007
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 492
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Posted: July 29 2011 at 11:16 |
Formentera Lady wrote:
DavetheSlave wrote:
I was best friends with Steven Woodward who's father was friendly with Trevor Rabin's family as well as with Manfred Mann and I met them through Steven on many occasions.
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Wow! 
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Was kinda cool - they were like South Africa's only contribution to international music later. Made us all want to be wannabe musicians.
Trevor fronted a band here called Rabbit and they had a really rabid local fanbase - screaming girls etc. Their stuff is really worth getting hold of for a listen.
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seb2112
Forum Groupie
Joined: April 09 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 83
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Posted: July 29 2011 at 11:33 |
I'm suprised to see so many straight up death metal bands categorized as prog. I can understand a band like Cynic, although I've completely outgrown their music and cannot bare to listen to them anymore, but a band like Fleshgod Apocalypse? If anything, the latest Behemoth record has a lot more to do with prog (as it closely resembles "accepted" prog metal acts Deathspell Omega and Ulcerate) than F.A.'s typical, uninteresting re-hash of somewhat technical (yet not progressive, the two are not intertwined) death metal. I get the same feeling when I see crappy black metal band early albums like Ancient and Abigor reviewed here because they eventually released a somewhat progressive record over a decade later. I left 90% of the metal scene behind, and I'm always suprised to see how much of it is forced unto here
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seb2112
Forum Groupie
Joined: April 09 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 83
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Posted: July 29 2011 at 11:41 |
seb2112 wrote:
I'm suprised to see so many straight up death metal bands categorized as prog. I can understand a band like Cynic, although I've completely outgrown their music and cannot bare to listen to them anymore, but a band like Fleshgod Apocalypse? If anything, the latest Behemoth record has a lot more to do with prog (as it closely resembles "accepted" prog metal acts Deathspell Omega and Ulcerate) than F.A.'s typical, uninteresting re-hash of somewhat technical (yet not progressive, the two are not intertwined) death metal. I get the same feeling when I see crappy black metal band early albums like Ancient and Abigor reviewed here because they eventually released a somewhat progressive record over a decade later. I left 90% of the metal scene behind, and I'm always suprised to see how much of it is forced unto here |
Also want to add that although somebands might of been progressive WITHIN THE METAL GENRE, they have no place being here. Take the band Death. Yes, they moved away from the genre's typical, simplistic beginnings, but the albums they later released have no place on this website. Are we going to start adding every band that evolved it's genre under the guise that they "progressed" ? Are we going to add a bunch of punk bands because they were slightly less simplistic than their forefathers? Are we going to add a crap load of hip hop artists because they have better and more complex productions? Is starting a new sub-genre progressive in itself? I don't think so, and I really don't understand why we have so many Sludge/Drone bands in the Tech/Extreme Metal category.
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989
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Posted: July 29 2011 at 12:09 |
At the rate you don't understand things, I think you should best stay away from the PA categories, they'd only give you headaches...
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: July 29 2011 at 13:32 |
DavetheSlave wrote:
That was probably your reality Dean bust you have to understand that we vector from different countries and the reality that I posted was the way it was here. My very first albums were Very Eavy, Very Umble and Black Sabbath both given to me for xmas when I was 11 years old or very close to thereabouts. We had a record shop in a place called Hillbrow called Hillbrow Records that specialised in "Underground" as I knew it and in that category I would find Uriah Heep, Black Sabbath, Gomorrah, Neu, Yes, ELP, Wishbone Ash etc etc.
I used to listen to Radio Nederlands on an old valve radio to their Underground Radio programme on Sunday nights and they played anything from Black Sabbath to Pink Floyd albums. There was a similar programme on radio Swazi that I used to love. I was best friends with Steven Woodward who's father was friendly with Trevor Rabin's family as well as with Manfred Mann and I met them through Steven on many occasions.
South Africa was a very different place to many other countries and unless a person knew where to look a lot of music and other things were kind of unavailable. I remember asking for Rush on one occasion after the 2112 release at a record shop (not Hillbrow records) and being looked at like I was strange by the owner.
We were shown Partridge family movies in our school hall every Saturday morning in around 1970 as well as Voyage to the bottom of the sea and the Avengers and if we were caught holding a girls hand during those Saturday morning sessions there was a whole heap of trouble. |
I understood that from your quoted post Dave, but you made a generalisation regarding categories based upon that viewpoint and took an en passant swipe at our categories in doing so, therefore my stating of a contrasting opinion was necessary - categorisation of music was just as complex then as it is now.
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What?
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: July 30 2011 at 13:02 |
seb2112 wrote:
I left 90% of the metal scene behind, and I'm always suprised to see how much of it is forced unto here |
I am surprised about the amount of metal here on a prog site, but since I don't know it particularly well, it doesn't bother me. The two examples in my opening post aren't artists who I don't think should be here. I was into stuff at the time that I kept up with and are here and it's no surprise.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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