3 Prog Rock Giants

HackettFan wrote: Unlike ProgMetaller I do like most of the King Crimson discography, but I give a clear edge to Genesis since I'm a Hackett fan afterall. I don't think ProgMetaller is as loopy here as you all seem to think. The fact is quite true, for instance, Iron Maiden have repeatedly acknowledged Steve Hackett as a major influence on them. I don't think King Crimson is really all that "heavier" in general, although I think KC makes the memory of their loud moments reverberate longer, so it seems more pervasive than it is. They have a lot of jazzy sections which are not very heavy at all, but seem heavy because they maintained some prior tension. Genesis is better at dynamic contrasts, but they dial the tension down a lot more once the heavy portion is completed. Also, "heaviness" can vary quite a bit with a given performance or recording mix. We know Hackett constantly lost out in the mix. I've been watching a live version of Lark's Tongues Pt. 1 on DVD. Great stuff, but it's nowhere near as heavy as the studio version (of course it's really the improvisation that makes it special).

I grant the point about KC's quiet-loud contrasts when it comes to a track like Easy Money but Red opens with heavy guitar.   Sorry, but I don't hear any moments of Genesis or Yes that are that heavy.   I do hear stuff that sounds like it was influenced by Sabbath but both bands almost seem to avoid riffs and that takes the sting out their heavy moments.   If you take LTIA pt-2, that's a solid riff.   Even in Musical Box, where the pre-Maiden galloping beats begin, Hackett remains quite melodic and it is arguably Banks's organ that sounds heavier.  

King Crimson was the most important of these three, though without Yes, I'm not sure it would have worked.

Dayvenkirq wrote: HackettFan wrote: Horizons wrote: ProgMetaller2112 wrote: Did Fripp come up with two-hand tapping, I think not Are you saying Hackett did? Cuz no What?? Defend this. As it turns out, tapping, let alone two-hand tapping, has a long history that predates Hackett. I'm not gonna do all the homework for you. Defend this yourself.

No one has claimed Hackett invented tapping. The only thing relevant to the claim is two handed tapping. I know of know audio or video recording documenting it prior to Hackett.

Sumdeus wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tapping#Historysecond paragraph.

I checked the YouTube film/video of Roy Schmeck supposedly doing two handed tapping in 1932 (link available in the Wiki footnote). The video clearly shows that he was not. He was doing a legato technique with the right hand while fretting with the left. Crucially the left hand never tapped anything. Not your everyday technique for sure, but also not two handed tapping, just legato. Normally when one plays legato on a guitar, one uses the right hand to mute the strings while the left hand taps. If you do this on a much smaller ukelele, you will never see any frets, so it is quite natural to tap with the right hand. I haven't followed up on the others. I will. Chapman's stick is well known for hammering, but not hammer pull sequences, and the instrument facilitates actions on different strings as opposed to the same string. Because of this I suspect that his technique may have always been different from what we have come to know as two handed tapping, but I might find out differently about some early period in his career for all I know, but the Chapman technique in any event as we see on the Chapman Stick is not the technique that metal guitarists emulated. Which is our reason for discussing it.

rogerthat wrote: So what if it is?  The TONE doesn't have much heaviness.  Ditto, Musical Box.   Such music is rather too melodic for me to associate it with heavy metal.   Compare Knife to what Deep Purple were doing on In Rock or even the Warpigs riff, that is a lot heavier already.   By 1971, there's no question that Sabbath was a lot heavier with tracks like Into the Void.

So what if it is, Iommi and Sabbath is exactly what Metal is all about and The Knife sounds like Black Sabbath

HackettFan wrote: where there are a couple guitar chords that really crunch, but they don't come out favorably in the mix unless you listen to Genesis Revisited II. I don't think it's a hands down case that Red is heavier than Lillywhite Lilith. However, perhaps it is more clearly so in the case of LTIA pt. 2. This is something of an outlier for Crimson, though (aside from for pt. 3). Anyway, I agree with your point about Fripp being more non-melodic.

rogerthat wrote: ProgMetaller2112 wrote: rogerthat wrote: So what if it is?  The TONE doesn't have much heaviness.  Ditto, Musical Box.   Such music is rather too melodic for me to associate it with heavy metal.   Compare Knife to what Deep Purple were doing on In Rock or even the Warpigs riff, that is a lot heavier already.   By 1971, there's no question that Sabbath was a lot heavier with tracks like Into the Void. So what if it is, Iommi and Sabbath is exactly what Metal is all about and The Knife sounds like Black Sabbath Knife only sounds like Sabbath to the extent that the riff is a bit like Sabbath.    Rutherford doesn't double up with the guitarist in the same way as Butler so the effect is ultimately not that heavy.

I agree Mike doesn't have the effect that Geezer does but really that song reminds me of Sabbath

HarbouringTheSoul wrote: So your argument is "It has one riff that reminds me of Black Sabbath, therefore it's heavier than King Crimson."?

Nope, the Knife is a really violent song musically and conceptually that no King Crimson track has ever matched it

ole-the-first wrote: ^Except for Schizoid, Laks and the whole Crimson's industrial-era (1994 — 2003).

I'll be honest here I stopped searching the bands music after Three Of A Perfect Pair

Dayvenkirq wrote: ProgMetaller2112 wrote: HarbouringTheSoul wrote: So your argument is "It has one riff that reminds me of Black Sabbath, therefore it's heavier than King Crimson."? Nope, "The Knife" is a really violent song musically and conceptually that no King Crimson track has ever matched it.  And what if someone disagrees?

you are entitled to disagree and have your own opinions


Edited by ProgMetaller2112 - January 28 2013 at 02:25