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stacanova View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: You might be prog if......
    Posted: March 30 2013 at 19:23
What is Prog?
How can you tell if a band is Prog?
How do you know if they are not?
 
The other night at work, Progressive Mike and myself were discussing (arguing) about this very thing.
I've also seen several "discussions" on here about this.
We wondered if a checklist existed that would tell us if a band was Prog?
So we tried to come up with a "Five Essentials" that is the DNA of all Prog bands.
I think all prog bands might tick all five of these boxes?
Let me know if you can think of one that doesn't?
Let me know if you can think of a band that isn't Prog that does all of these?
Thanks!
 
This is what we came up with.
 

1.       Concept or theme albums/songs (Not every album, but they have done at least one)

2.       Virtuoso musicianship

3.       Use of odd time signatures

4.       Lengthy songs

5.       Pretentiousness

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2013 at 19:29
Oh good grief. Not even close.
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2013 at 19:58
I must say I disagree... While I think the five elements you listed are certainly present in a lot of progressive rock (symphonic prog in particular), I would by no means consider them necessary to the genre. I believe that any genre - especially one as varied as progressive rock - is too complex a thing to be restricted and defined by five characteristics; there is much more to writing music of a particular style than simply ticking the correct boxes!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2013 at 20:31
...if it has Rickenbacker basses and Mellotrons, well, then, it MUST be prog!  

Even better if it sounds like music you'd hear at a Renaissance festival! 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2013 at 20:54
^Hey, Chuck, right on! Hit the nail on the head, friend.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2013 at 20:56
Pretentiousness is not a prog qualification.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2013 at 21:58
Here is the official discussion from the Archives:   http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive-rock.asp.  It does not merely give a concise definition, which is impossible, but rather explains the nature of Prog and its history.  As members, we do not have to agree with everything said but I cannot think of a more accurate and comprehensive treatment of the subject.  Not everything can be reduced to a simple formula or definition and Prog is one of them.  That is part of why I like Prog: No matter how much I think I know, there is always some new approach or aspect of it.  Long live Prog!
The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2013 at 21:59
I think Wikipedia has defined it very well:


Characteristics

Progressive rock is not crisply delineated from other genres, but is more likely than other types of popular music to feature characteristics such as:

Form

Progressive rock songs either avoid common popular music song structures of verse-chorus form, or blur the formal distinctions by extending sections or inserting musical interludes, often with exaggerated dynamics to heighten contrast between sections. Classical forms are often inserted or substituted, sometimes yielding entire suites, building on the traditional medleys of earlier rock bands. Progressive rock songs also often have extended instrumental passages, marrying the classical solo tradition with the improvisational traditions of jazz and psychedelic rock. All of these tend to add length to progressive rock songs, which may last longer than twenty minutes.[5]

Timbre

Early progressive rock groups expanded the timbral palette of the then-traditional rock instrumentation of guitar, keyboard, bass guitar, and drums by adding instruments more typical of jazz or folk music, such as flute, saxophone, timpani, and violin, and more often than not used electronic keyboards, synthesizers, and electronic effects. Some instruments – most notably the Hammond organ, the Moog synthesizer, and the Mellotron – have become closely associated with the genre.[5]

Rhythm

Drawing on their classical, jazz, folk and experimental influences, progressive rock artists are more likely to explore complex time signatures such as 5/8 and 7/8.[6]

Tempo, key and time signature changes are very common in progressive rock.[7] Progressive rock generally tends to be freer in its rhythmic approach than other forms of rock music. The approach taken varies, depending on the band, but may range from regular beats to complex time signatures.[5]

Melody and harmony

In progressive rock, the blues inflections of mainstream rock are often discarded. Progressive bands drew inspiration from a wide range of genres, ranging from classical to jazz, and, in later works, world music.

The genre abandoned many of rock's traditional characteristics, including a standard verse-chorus structure, and often replaced the electric guitar with more layered and complex instrumentation to create longer compositions.[8]

Melodies are more likely to be modal than based on the pentatonic scale, and are more likely to comprise longer, developing passages than short, catchy ones.[5]

Concept albums

Concept albums are albums that are built around a theme or a story, and they are common to progressive rock.[3][9]

Concept albums may have included the historical, fantastical, and metaphysical, and even, in the case of Jethro Tull's Thick as a Brick (1972), for parodying concept albums.[5]

Concept albums became popular after the releases of the Mothers of Invention's Freak Out! (1966), the Beach Boys' Pet Sounds (1966), The Beatles' Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (1967), The Who's The Who Sell Out (1967) and The Moody Blues' Days of Future Passed (1967).

Notable progressive rock concept albums include Emerson, Lake & Palmer's Tarkus (1971), Pink Floyd's The Dark Side of the Moon (1973), Wish You Were Here (1975), Animals (1977), The Wall (1979), Yes' Tales from Topographic Oceans (1973), Genesis' The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway (1974), and Jethro Tull's Thick as a Brick (1972).[citation needed]

Lyrical themes

Progressive rock bands tend to avoid typical rock/pop subjects such as love, dancing, etc. Unlike other rock genres, they also deliberately avoid typical themes appealing to youth such as sex, violence, nihilism, rebellion, and the macabre., rather inclining towards the kinds of themes found in classical literature, fantasy, science fiction, folklore, social commentary or all of these.[4][10][11]

For example, Peter Gabriel of Genesis often wrote surreal stories to base his lyrics around, sometimes including theatrical elements with several characters, while Roger Waters of Pink Floyd combined social criticism with personal struggles with greed, madness and death.[5][unreliable source?]

One side epics

One side epics probably had their birth in the The Mothers of Invention album Absolutely Free, which featured one epic composition in each side of the record ("Absolutely Free" and "The M.O.I. American Pageant"), each one divided in smaller songs. Even earlier, in 1966, Freak Out! featured the multi-part song The Return of the Son of Monster Magnet occupying the whole Side four of the album. Other early examples include the 17 minute epic "In Held 'Twas in I" by Procol Harum, Ars Longa Vita Brevis by The Nice, and "Rivmic Melodies", by Soft Machine. A perfect example of the marriage of rock and classical themes is the Song of Scheherazade by Renaissance. The earliest one side epic from an already famous band, was released in 1969, when the Beatles included the 16 minute Abbey Road Medley on the Abbey Road album.

Soon later bands like Pink Floyd, Yes, Emerson, Lake & Palmer and Genesis began to use this technique for later compositions such as "Echoes", "Close to the Edge", "Tarkus", and "Supper's Ready", respectively. Some artists pushed the limit to the whole album, as Jethro Tull did with Thick as a Brick (1972) and A Passion Play (1973) or Mike Oldfield did with Tubular Bells (1973).



Edited by smartpatrol - March 30 2013 at 22:00
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ExittheLemming View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2013 at 22:23
Practically every jazz giant from 1960 or 'modern' classical composer post WW2 could happily tick all 5 boxes and none could even be remotely described as Prog?! Where you going with this?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2013 at 00:58
The list quoted in the O.P. may be instantly recognisable traits of Prog-Rock, with all 5 points being applicable to many acts - E.L.P., Rick Wakeman, Yes, even Transatlantic & Spock's Beard etc.  But it really is only the tip of the iceberg. There's really only 2 points mentioned which I can say is a commonality with practically all bands I know of :
lengthy tracks , at least, over 6 minutes long (but not necessarily making up the entire album's contents) and use of odd-time sigs.  The other 3 points may relate to some, but not all 'Prog'. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2013 at 01:36
When you start thinking that you need to tick boxes in order for your music to 'be prog' you are already in the wrong way. Prog is precisely about making rock music free from any boxes to tick.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2013 at 01:42
All you need is a cool band name to be prog.

Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2013 at 02:13

burn every list, forget about every defination, and listen, listen, listen.

Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2013 at 02:24
Originally posted by stacanova stacanova wrote:

 

1.       Concept or theme albums/songs (Not every album, but they have done at least one)

2.       Virtuoso musicianship

3.       Use of odd time signatures

4.       Lengthy songs

5.       Pretentiousness

 
You haven't excluded Tchaikovsky et al
rotten hound of the burnie crew
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2013 at 02:29
This thread has proved that prog (in fact, any genre really) is impossible to definitively define. As Jesse Jackson said in the speech sampled for Primal Scream's Come Together: "All those are just labels. We know that music is music."

Prog is about thinking outside the box, not ticking it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2013 at 02:40
Originally posted by RoeDent RoeDent wrote:

This thread has proved that prog (in fact, any genre really) is impossible to definitively define. As Jesse Jackson said in the speech sampled for Primal Scream's Come Together: "All those are just labels. We know that music is music."

Prog is about thinking outside the box, not ticking it.
Agreed - but there's more too it than that.  Lots of non-prog thinks outside the box too.  But 'non-prog' is another label, of course....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2013 at 03:37
Prog can be a difficult animal to understand and I've seen various arguments around the net of what is and what is not prog. To me what makes up prog is music that is different from the ordinary structure that makes up a mainstream genre - pop music, rock, country rock, country, folk, jazz, metal etc. etc where it goes beyond those specific genres. To over complicate something on purpose is to mess it up and perhaps we shouldn't over complicate what makes up prog music. When I was around 12 years old I found prog rock and it was an instant love affair. (I was 12 in around 1971). Back then the music stores that mattered here in SA didn't have such a thing as a prog category but what they had was a section in their stores called Underground and to me that section contained what I percieve as prog music as it was far removed from the mainstream genres of music. If I wanted Yes, Genesis, Hawkwind, Alice Cooper, Black Sabbath, Uriah Heep etc I looked for it in the underground section of music stores. From there things went further and the prog label was ultimately born.
I will argue vehemently today that Black Sabbath, Uriah Heep, Alice Cooper, Budgie and the like are most definately prog music and the reason for that is that back when they released their initial albums they were progressive. When I first got hold of Black Sabbath albums there was virtually nothing out there that sounded like them and they were formant in taking music in new directions - today people will argue that they aren't really prog by todays standards but back then those arguments were not relevant in that they were progressive then. To me, if something was progressive then they have to be progressive today - or labelled as such. Someone can argue with me today that Alice Cooper is not progressive until they turn blue but I'm not interested in the argument because in 1972 they were.
By modern standards Prog to me means music that is more advanced than the standard forms out there structurally, demands a higher degree of instrument skill than does the ordinary, makes solid use of keyboard instumentation a lot of the time, changes direction concerning the longer tracks, doesn't consist of the standard passage then chorus then passage structure, uses different and more complex rythm structures than the ordinary, is not aimed at a mainstream audience for commercial purposes and other things that I don't want to write a book about here. The single most important thing that I look for I suppose is does the music take me on a journey in my mind or does it simple pick me up like a taxi and drop me off at the nearest destination. I look for emotion as well I guess - does the music hold real emotion regardless of what that emotion is - real emotion beyond the standard love thing that pop music is almost wholly full of. I'm not a lover of standard pop music, mainstream metal, straight on jazz etc. in that I enjoy complexity of structure and subject matter. I will argue until I'm blue that Metallica are not prog music and that Stratovarius are and many will see that regarding my own beliefs down the line here - why? Simply because Stratovarius takes me on a journey when I close my eyes and listen to it and Metallica don't aside from a very few of their tracks. The taking on a journey is the most real aspect of what makes up prog for me today. Big Big Train take me on a journey, Be Bop Deluxe don't. Zappa can take me to some wierd places, Radiohead take me nowhere.
 


Edited by sukmytoe - March 31 2013 at 03:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2013 at 03:41
To the OP: Aqualung could be used as a classic counter-example to the list (has it not been for the "medium" length of a few songs on it), but still very close. Judging by the posts above, there must be many more.

I've noticed that every time I think "prog rock", the notion of symphonic rock comes to mind for some reason. Keep in mind that we have other guys like Prog-Related and Crossover Prog (Roxy Music, anybody?).


Edited by Dayvenkirq - March 31 2013 at 03:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2013 at 06:19
Cross over/Prog related originally derived from the idea to simply be a little more interesting than average Pop , but with much less complexity. Now it is compartmentalized into a catagory with a definition which will register in the minds of people who may have originally thought the music just to be "Rock" ..as many did with the Beatles in the 60's and early70's. I find the whole concept of define this or that to be ridiculous whenever I think of the original idea, which was to simply have freedom of expression within various styles of music decades ago. That seems too premature to people today and a catagory/store sticker feels more logical to them. That revolves around the frustration in people's minds that 2 + 2 cannot equal 4 and so a  classification solves their ultimate confusion. Experimentation in the 60's and 70's , logically is not summed up by pasting a stub on it to satisfy a confusing definition in your own head that you didn't grow up with, makes no sense at all and beats the hell out of you. Lady Gaga is not Prog. Styx is not Prog...but catagorization gives it a lame excuse to be Prog. That's insulting, disgraceful, and moronic.

Edited by TODDLER - March 31 2013 at 06:23
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2013 at 07:52
Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

  Styx is not Prog....
There you go - here's a band which 'ticks all the boxes' in the O.P. I don't mind early Styx, but they are quite a mainstream act.  They have done longer tracks, they have done the 'concept' album, they have virtuosity on offer (mainly keyboardist DeYoung), they have songs with odd metres (occasionally) and they are pompous and bombastic (or whatever the last point was) - some of their songs do 'crossover' into Prog territory, but 90% of the crowd (maybe more) will say they are not a Prog band. 
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