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In defense of Works
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BasedProgger View Drop Down
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Points: 106 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote BasedProgger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 09:15
Works vol. 1 isn't on the same level of quality as their first four albums but I do find each side to be better than the last. If Works vol. 1 was a single album that only consisted of the band efforts and Carl Palmer's solo works, I'd enjoy it more.
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BasedProgger View Drop Down
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Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Like many such albums, Works 1 is a good album that could have been a great album distilled down to one record. In fact, I would go far as to say one could distill Works 1 and Works 2 into one album and have a masterpiece.

Side One
"C'est la Vie"
"Hallowed Be Thy Name"
"L.A. Nights"
"Nobody Loves You Like I Do"
"Maple Leaf Rag"

Side Two
"Tiger in the Spotlight"
"The Enemy God Dances with the Black Spirits"
"I Believe in Father Christmas"
"Fanfare for the Common Man"

Stripped of bloat and pretension, focusing on songwriting yet still highlighting each member, the album could perhaps have been ELP's most popular. It would be fun (and the great addition of Joe Walsh on "L.A. Nights" is the very definition of fun). It certainly would have staved off ELP's eventual decline and stagnation, and might have even changed the pervading critical view of the band as prog dinosaurs.


It would be better but I'm not sure it would have been more popular than their earlier albums. I personally would trade "Nobody Loves You Like I Do" for "Closer to Believing" and all of the Works 2 songs (with the possible exception of "Maple Leaf Rag") for "Pirates".
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Nergdnur Ddot View Drop Down
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Points: 10 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nergdnur Ddot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 hours 3 minutes ago at 12:49
Originally posted by Hosydi Hosydi wrote:

Originally posted by Nergdnur Ddot Nergdnur Ddot wrote:

Originally posted by Hosydi Hosydi wrote:

Originally posted by Nergdnur Ddot Nergdnur Ddot wrote:

Originally posted by Hosydi Hosydi wrote:

Originally posted by Nergdnur Ddot Nergdnur Ddot wrote:

Originally posted by Hosydi Hosydi wrote:

It was evident that ELP had lost its inventiveness after Brain Salad Surgery and a tiring tour. They chose to have a double LP with each member contributing a side and the last side being a collaborative effort, instead of a one-disc album where they perform as a group. And the result of such a decision is probably the most terrible double-LP album in the history of the genre. Only Lake's material has some lovely moments as well as parts with him on the vocals on Pirates.

Love Beach, despite its awful sleeve design, is a masterpiece album in comparison with Works.


Only Lake's material? What about Piano Concerto No. 1? It's a genuinely good avant-garde, psychedelic, neo-classical song. It's on par with The Nice live records such as Five Bridges. Yes, it is messy, but isn't that the point of this kind of music?

In his early musical days, Keith Emerson refused his music teacher's suggestion for him to study classical music in London because young Emerson had little interest in classical music at the time and chose jazz piano. With the popularity of progressive rock, however, Keith Emerson was recognized as a very talented keyboard player who often fuses rock and classical music sounds, and as a first-class entertainer, gifted for extroverted and theatrical performances—firstly in The Nice and then in the trio Emerson, Lake & Palmer—he became a superstar in the 70s, perhaps one of the most iconic that ever existed in rock music, and such fame may have been the reason Keith Emerson developed an egomaniacal aspiration to be recognized as a serious classical music composer as well, and that ambition led him to create Piano Concerto No. 1. But this grand ambition has exceeded his writing skills in the classical genre. The Piano Concerto No. 1 is shallow and lacks refinement and sounds mechanical. Although the idea was to produce something substantial, the execution fell short of the expectations one has with classical music.

For those who frequently engage with classical music and are well-acquainted with the compositions of renowned composers, the initial two movements of Keith Emerson's Piano Concerto No. 1 may come across as lacking originality and exhibiting a formulaic structure. These movements do not have the richness or emotional depth of more typical concertos from the classical masters. The excessive use of standard forms and tropes dilutes the overall impact of the piece, rendering it less memorable than other pieces in the genre. Although the third movement in Emerson's concerto is more lively, it is also much different from the first two movements, and that inconsistency may disturb the listener in attempting to see cohesion within the work as a whole. A perfect concerto has to have stylistic coherence of some variety throughout its multiple movements, something that Piano Concerto No. 1 does not possess. 
Compared to piano concertos by renowned composers, such as those Keith Emerson aspired to be like, it lacks content.



Thanks for your explanation. I do think though that the Brahms comparison is a bit out of place. It is much closer to Stravinski at core. I think the messiness is a feature, not a bug. You are in for a crazy psychedelic ride, and you expect an epic classic tune. ELP has always been more avant-garde jazzy-esque or blue-esque than traditional European music.
One could find worth in both pieces. Even a silly gnome statue from the garden can find a cherished place in our hearts. Though, one can't help but notice that, in contrast to Brahms' Piano Concerto No. 1, Emerson's Piano Concerto No. 1 has the depth of a kiddie pool.


Pretty weird statement. In contrast to Prokofiev's Battle on Ice or Wagner's Tristan Und Isolde, Close to the Edge also has the depth of a kiddie pool and so is a lot of prog classics. It reminds me of jazz purists bashing on Steely Dan because it is closer to Yacht Rock than real stuff like Coltrane and the likes. As much as I like Tony Banks or Rick Wakeman, they will never be as good as Ravel.
I understand what you are trying to say. However, Keith Emerson had no intention of making another "normal," just longer-duration progressive rock track; I mean, something like, let's say, a supposed Tarkus 2. In interviews, he expressed a desire to create music that could stand alongside classical masterpieces while, due to blending it with progressive rock elements, still appealing to a contemporary audience. This ambition is evident in his Piano Concerto No. 1, where he didn't use just classical music sounds here and there but directly employed orchestral arrangements and harmonies of classical music. It is clear from his compositional style and aspirations that he intended Piano Concerto No. 1 to be taken seriously within the classical tradition while showcasing his unique voice as the then-prog-rock superstar. 
Thus, it has to be said that Emerson's ambitious attempt to blend progressive rock with classical music yet to be at the level of classical masters was ultimately unsuccessful on his Piano Concerto No. 1, which is, by the way, the central piece at Works, the album you are trying to "defend."


I get your point. Nothing much to add. I'd be curious to know your opinion of classical-influenced prog like Gentle Giant or PFM. Should it compete with classical music?

Thanks for bringing up Joan Tower, her music is amazing.

Edited by Nergdnur Ddot - 22 hours 57 minutes ago at 12:55
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Atavachron View Drop Down
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Points: 65676 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 hours 41 minutes ago at 13:11
^ It's not really about classical-influenced prog competing with classical, it's about the blend of the two realms and how an artist approaches that.   What makes prog & fusion interesting is the mix of different genres, not whether those genres are well-represented individually.   That would be more like purism, and prog rock fans have never really been too interested in that in their prog or rock fusion.   
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Points: 29585 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 hours 36 minutes ago at 22:16
Originally posted by BasedProgger BasedProgger wrote:

Works vol. 1 isn't on the same level of quality as their first four albums but I do find each side to be better than the last. If Works vol. 1 was a single album that only consisted of the band efforts and Carl Palmer's solo works, I'd enjoy it more.

Perhaps maybe for the band I would combine the best of Lake and Palmer's side for a killer side 2.:
Fanfare for The Common Man
Pirates
The Enemy God
Hallowed By Thy Name
LA Nights
C'est La Vie
Food For Your Soul
Closer To Believing

Perhaps a Keith Emerson solo album combining Vol 1 and 2 might have been worth exploring:
Piano Concerto No1 
Honky Tonk Train Blues
Maple Leaf Rag
Barrelhouse Shakedown
Abaddon's Bolero (Orchestral version)*

* this was recorded the same time as Piano Concerto No 1 and eventually found its way onto Emerson's 1995 solo album Changing States as a bonus track.
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Rick1 View Drop Down
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Points: 2967 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8 hours 57 minutes ago at 02:55
^ That version of Bolero on 'Works Live' is brilliant.  At no point in the discussion so far is the fact that ELP were primarily a live band and 'Works Live' is a fine testament.  Other recordings of that period such as Live at Nassau Coliseum are excellent, especially as this shows what the band could do although they had ditched the orchestra at this point (i.e. Emerson's reworking of Pirates, etc).
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BasedProgger View Drop Down
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Points: 106 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BasedProgger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 1 hour 57 minutes ago at 09:55
That could work. I thought about this not too long ago.

Another possibility could be to have two or three band compositions (the two Works 1 songs plus "So Far to Fall") spread across the album then one solo piece for each member, like Yes's "Fragile".

Side A
Fanfare for the Common Man
Honky Tonk Train Blues, Maple Leaf Rag, or one of the Piano Concerto movements
C'est La Vie or Closer to Believing

Side B
So Far to Fall
The Enemy God or LA Nights
Pirates

If there's enough time you could also throw in one of the 1973 outtakes, maybe "Brain Salad Surgery", at the end of side A.
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