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What ever happened to E.L.P.?

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BasedProgger View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BasedProgger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2025 at 08:49
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

In truth they should have stopped after the live triple album and then we would probbaly not even be having this debate.


Maybe but then again there are a lot of bands that could have stopped after any album and their legacy wouldn't have been tarnished. Genesis could have stopped after Peter Gabriel or Steve Hackett's departure, Pink Floyd could have stopped after 1974, and The Who could have stopped after Keith Moon's death. But they didn't stop and it's best that bands break up when they want to. ELP shouldn't have been forced to make that commercial album. They should have been allowed to stop after Works.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2025 at 09:22
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

...
While it's true that some people do not understand context or as you say, miss a sense of history, nobody's ever complained about ELP's lack of loud guitar, or complained about Palmer's drumming, or lack of growls (a singing style that came much, much later, seriously, such a weird comment). 

Hi,

It was a generic comment, and not intended to be taken seriously, or directly as you have. 

The point was, that the music, in those days, was so different, that few people that posted here on this thread can really relate to it, and I don't mean that badly, in the sense that the times are different, but looking at ELP as if it were a today's band, that should be listed in the monthly numbers, or year end best of lists, makes it look like this old band is not that good ... and I find that sad ... to me it's like saying that Stravinsky is old and dead, and the music is crap ... and that would be a comment on the knowledge of music a lot more on the reality of the situation, and a bit about the history of music, that is/was, once again, poor ... remember that Debussy was booed, and Ravel was thrown garbage for a while.

With the media today, we have a chance to set things right, and give the folks that deserve it a chance, and instead, the only thing that can be said is making a comment about what I said instead of adding to the thread.

I stand up to be counted, and was there when the music came around ... a lot of folks here would not be there at all because of the commercial reality of things that is so visible today ... not that it wasn't THEN, but that was EXACTLY what we revolted against, and the FM radio dial was our great helper ... to the point that we still discuss that music. Shame that there is little appreciation for what so many folks did and helped this music, and have to put up with some comments!

But, that's not to say that there were not comments on ELP then. There were, but I think that many folks were confused with their classical nature opposite their pop/rock stuff. It didn't bother me a whole lot, because it was far out ... but in today's style and parlayance, I think ELP would be trashed even more, specially with anyone being able to say whatever they want, regardless. 

And it is very sad that it is all about the "preferences" and not the music itself ... there is nothing more that a true musician wants than appreciation for their work. It's what an art is for, and what artists live for. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jacob Schoolcraft Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2025 at 10:51
ELP were very successful in the 70s and very influential to musicians on the East coast of America! I saw them perform at the Spectrum in Philadelphia on the "Welcome Back' tour. The place was packed!! What an event!!

By the time I hit age 18 and started playing Rock clubs and theaters...I could see "hands on" ..just loads of young keyboard players and drummers trying to play like Keith Emerson and Carl Palmer. The drum sets changed quite a bit . Drummers in the tri state area were investing in Carl Palmer's gear. The same applied to Emerson and many pro keyboardist that I knew from the road were in fact trying to play his style .

Billy Joel was obviously influenced by Emerson. Obviously on "Angry Young Man" which has the affect of ELP "The Sheriff " and generally he improvised in more of a Emerson style on some of his jazzy songs....for example 52nd Street.

With ELP it was all about the impact! It just generated through other musicians up and down the east coast. Even in the 80s...keyboardists still expressed admiration for Emerson.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2025 at 11:25
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

In truth they should have stopped after the live triple album and then we would probbaly not even be having this debate.


–Stop with WBMFTTSTNE

–80s: Emerson, Lake & Powell (2 albums)

–90s: Black Moon

A much better look. No 3, either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2025 at 22:10
Originally posted by BasedProgger BasedProgger wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

In truth they should have stopped after the live triple album and then we would probbaly not even be having this debate.


Maybe but then again there are a lot of bands that could have stopped after any album and their legacy wouldn't have been tarnished. Genesis could have stopped after Peter Gabriel or Steve Hackett's departure, Pink Floyd could have stopped after 1974, and The Who could have stopped after Keith Moon's death. But they didn't stop and it's best that bands break up when they want to. ELP shouldn't have been forced to make that commercial album. They should have been allowed to stop after Works.

ELP was all albout those early albums though. I like Works Vol One but 3 sides of solo music was too much for even die hard ELP fans while the later albums were confused messes excepting Black Moon perhaps. But then we get ITHS (2 steps back after 1 forward). I did think about Genesis but actually ATTWT and Duke were fine and well put together records. Later records were not so bad as their reputations excepting CAS but no one really thinks that's a Genesis record anyway. The Who were mainly a live band with one stellar studio album. The comment about Floyd is strange (WYWH and Animals???!!)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2025 at 22:43
^ WYWH & Animals are two great records, I think that's his point.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2025 at 23:19
^ I don't think it is as he doesn't like (or rate) Animals highly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2025 at 23:43
^ Yeah it's hard to tell what exactly his point is, especially since WYWH is one of the great albums of the 1970s.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fuxi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2025 at 02:34
Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Said it many times before but PA listings tend to value consistency more than inspiration when it comes to album ratings. There is plenty wrong with the PA top 100 as far as I'm concerned, not just the lack of ELP. No Rick Wakeman albums at all (at least 2 should be in there) and he was a contemporary of ELP maybe even doing it better than them on Six Wives up to and inc White Rock. Scottish band Beggars Opera were also a tremendous band with all the chops of ELP. Their debut Act One was incredible. I think many reviewers actually don't appreciate this pure classical approach as Pedro suggests. The filler thing is a red herring imo. Just an excuse to mark them down for no good reason. For some reason Genesis can get away with Battle Of Epping Forest yet the knives are out when ELP do the 2 minute throwaway ditty BTB. My final thought is that ELP did untold damage to their legacy with the awful Love Beach. That was a horror story and their collective reputations took a massive hit and somehow never recovered from it. That gave all the ammunition needed to the punks yet in spirit they were as rebellious as any punk band which is the strangely ironic thing about the whole affair!


Rick Wakeman is indeed sadly overlooked. One of my very favorite artists... indeed more so than ELP. He's got more music, both individual songs or whole albums, that I love than most other artists, including ELP, and even Yes themselves (whom are also among my very favorite artists).


I love THE SIX WIVES too, and awarded it a five-star review. I also greatly enjoyed one of Rick's recent releases:

https://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=3052789
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kirk782 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2025 at 03:14
Originally posted by BasedProgger BasedProgger wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

In truth they should have stopped after the live triple album and then we would probbaly not even be having this debate.


Maybe but then again there are a lot of bands that could have stopped after any album and their legacy wouldn't have been tarnished. Genesis could have stopped after Peter Gabriel or Steve Hackett's departure, Pink Floyd could have stopped after 1974, and The Who could have stopped after Keith Moon's death. But they didn't stop and it's best that bands break up when they want to. ELP shouldn't have been forced to make that commercial album. They should have been allowed to stop after Works.


Pink Floyd still made decent work post 1974 but many other prog giants didn't. VdGG latter half of the repertoire plays it quite safe and somewhat bland. The Who actually did a farewell tour in 1982, I think, called Who's Last in support of their then LP [It's Hard was it?]. That had Eminence Front , considered by many to be the last great song by the band. Half of the band then re grouped[2 members] to make couple of more albums this side of the century and they couldn't even touch half the greatness of Who's Next.

Led Zeppelin were one of the few bands to call it quits and not have a rotating cast of character for the band due to which they were canonized in rock history [despite Robert Plant himself holding his past lyricism not in any high esteem].
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2025 at 07:51
Originally posted by kirk782 kirk782 wrote:

......
Half of the band then re grouped[2 members] to make couple of more albums this side of the century and they couldn't even touch half the greatness of Who's Next.
...
Led Zeppelin were one of the few bands to call it quits and not have a rotating cast of character for the band due to which they were canonized in rock history [despite Robert Plant himself holding his past lyricism not in any high esteem].

Hi,

I think THE WHO did it for the money that was being offered. Without Keith and John, they were not a very good band, and it kinda said it all ... those two added something to the band that was really good all around, and while Keith was appreciated after he left us, John has (pretty much) been ignored for his touch and taste. Honestly, for me, Pete was grossly over rated, and the most that folks remember him for is him being an idiot and doing Bonzo Dog Impressions (Legs Larry Smith taught Keith how to trash drums and such!), and kinda taking it to an extreme (Woodstock), which was not something about his musicianship or talent ... it was something about a young man that didn't care, as much about things as we did ... and trashing them was a way to say ... I'm rich, and you are not. A very good thing in those days in terms of what fame was, that is still going on today with the Internet.

LZ is a different beast. RP not thinking much of his early lyrics is not surprising. I think he is tired of the accolades and everything else, and even after a drink, it starts getting monotonous and sick, so one way to let go the boredom is to say something about it, that will get any writers, or interviewers, asking different questions, and hopefully change the subject, or he is gone.

The main thing, though, is that Pete and Roger look really tired and not interested or happy. At the very least, all three members left from LZ have a wider appreciation for their work, and how they went out at the top when Bonzo passed away. And they look much better at their history. THE WHO by comparison always felt like they were fighting something all the time, and it got tired after a while, even though they have some fantastic material.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BasedProgger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2025 at 09:31
Originally posted by kirk782 kirk782 wrote:

Pink Floyd still made decent work post 1974 but many other prog giants didn't. VdGG latter half of the repertoire plays it quite safe and somewhat bland. The Who actually did a farewell tour in 1982, I think, called [I]Who's Last[/I] in support of their then LP [It's Hard was it?]. That had [I]Eminence Front [/I], considered by many to be the last great song by the band. Half of the band then re grouped[2 members] to make couple of more albums this side of the century and they couldn't even touch half the greatness of [I]Who's Next.[/I]

Led Zeppelin were one of the few bands to call it quits and not have a rotating cast of character for the band due to which they were canonized in rock history [despite Robert Plant himself holding his past lyricism not in any high esteem].


Pink Floyd did make great albums post 1974. There was a discussion about this last year on the Steve Hoffman music forums suggesting that things would have been better for them and rumor had it all four members told their manager separately they were thinking of leaving the band. Had they broken up, we would have at least got live versions of "Shine on you Crazy Diamond" and two of the songs from Animals, and maybe The Wall could have been a Roger Waters solo album.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote meAsoi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2025 at 01:51
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

People are too often lead by journalistic opinion but then ELP did bring a lot on themselves, ie touring with a 60 piece orchestra during the summer of punk, losing a million dollars a show (as estimated by Greg Lake at the time) and then deciding to do a commercial album with a dreadful cover. This was a band unhinged and scoring several own goals (to use soccer parlance). It was a long road to recovery .. but then they do In The Hot Seat. In truth they should have stopped after the live triple album and then we would probbaly not even be having this debate.
In the summer of punk, the punk-rock movement, limited to a few London streets and hysteria in a certain music press, was no competition for Keith Emerson. That year, a competition for him could have been, say, Kansas, with their album "Point of Know Return." Or Yes, with their also successful album "Going for the One." But they weren't a problem for Keith Emerson either. The biggest "problem" for him was the fact that he was not Rachmaninoff; the late Keith Emerson was, let's face it, "only" a prog rock keyboardist, and "Piano Concerto No. 1" was still too much for him.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2025 at 02:29
^ Wash your mouth out with soap. It's this kind of trolling that got to Keith in the end.  The very idea that Kansas were competition, you're having a laugh!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2025 at 02:33
^ I agree, talk about arrogant.   One wonders if the poster is even a musician.   I would guess not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote meAsoi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2025 at 03:42
Originally posted by Rick1 Rick1 wrote:

^ Wash your mouth out with soap. It's this kind of trolling that got to Keith in the end.  The very idea that Kansas were competition, you're having a laugh!
There is no need to wash my mouth with soap, considering that "Point of Know Return" by the then-famous US symphonic rock band Kansas, released in October 1977, was a bigger competitor to Emerson, Lake & Palmer's album "Works Vol. 1" than all those releases of the entire punk-rock movement in that year. Because those who listened to progressive music in 1977 generally didn't care for punk rock records or even found punk rockers disgusting along with their "hits."
Not to mention all those other progressive and art rock releases that came out that year, like Jethro Tull's "Songs from the Wood," Genesis' live double LP "Seconds Out," Pink Floyd's "Animals," Peter Gabriel's first solo album, Anthony Phillips' "The Geese & the Ghost," Van der Graaf Generator's "The Quiet Zone/The Pleasure Dome," The Alan Parsons Project's "I Robot," Supertramp's "Even in the Quietest Moments...," and so on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote meAsoi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2025 at 03:50
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ I agree, talk about arrogant.   One wonders if the poster is even a musician.   I would guess not.
I'm not a musician. I have never played any instrument. Just a fan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2025 at 04:31
^ I think taking the piss out of Emerson is reason enough.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2025 at 04:55
Originally posted by meAsoi meAsoi wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

People are too often lead by journalistic opinion but then ELP did bring a lot on themselves, ie touring with a 60 piece orchestra during the summer of punk, losing a million dollars a show (as estimated by Greg Lake at the time) and then deciding to do a commercial album with a dreadful cover. This was a band unhinged and scoring several own goals (to use soccer parlance). It was a long road to recovery .. but then they do In The Hot Seat. In truth they should have stopped after the live triple album and then we would probbaly not even be having this debate.
In the summer of punk, the punk-rock movement, limited to a few London streets and hysteria in a certain music press, was no competition for Keith Emerson. That year, a competition for him could have been, say, Kansas, with their album "Point of Know Return." Or Yes, with their also successful album "Going for the One." But they weren't a problem for Keith Emerson either. The biggest "problem" for him was the fact that he was not Rachmaninoff; the late Keith Emerson was, let's face it, "only" a prog rock keyboardist, and "Piano Concerto No. 1" was still too much for him.

It had nothing to do with competition. ELP were already labelled 'Dinosaurs' as were many other bands in the mainstream rock press. Prog rock had thrived when there was a base of music critics who took them seriously. When that changed it was the beginning of the end. Punk Rock was a much more serious thing than you are crediting it for being and a lot of those guys were well aware of prog bands and even liked them. But too many prog artists were stuck up their own bums and were unable to change. Also plain fact of it is that ELP, Yes, Genesis, Supertramp and many more bands of the classic era were running on fumes and their glory days were in the past. Pink Floyd were always a bit late to the party but kind of adapted because they could see what was happening. ELP should have been too big to fail but history tells us otherwise. His Piano Concerto was indeed a step too far but not because it was bad but because of perception (up own arse and all that). Maybe Love Beach was an attempt to look relaxed and 'hey look at us guys we can get down with the kids etc' . It was utterly unconvincing and actually terrible in a very real way. At least with the Piano Concerto, Keith was being authentic and true to himself. Don't ever lose that or you have nothing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote meAsoi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2025 at 05:27
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by meAsoi meAsoi wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

People are too often lead by journalistic opinion but then ELP did bring a lot on themselves, ie touring with a 60 piece orchestra during the summer of punk, losing a million dollars a show (as estimated by Greg Lake at the time) and then deciding to do a commercial album with a dreadful cover. This was a band unhinged and scoring several own goals (to use soccer parlance). It was a long road to recovery .. but then they do In The Hot Seat. In truth they should have stopped after the live triple album and then we would probbaly not even be having this debate.
In the summer of punk, the punk-rock movement, limited to a few London streets and hysteria in a certain music press, was no competition for Keith Emerson. That year, a competition for him could have been, say, Kansas, with their album "Point of Know Return." Or Yes, with their also successful album "Going for the One." But they weren't a problem for Keith Emerson either. The biggest "problem" for him was the fact that he was not Rachmaninoff; the late Keith Emerson was, let's face it, "only" a prog rock keyboardist, and "Piano Concerto No. 1" was still too much for him.

It had nothing to do with competition. ELP were already labelled 'Dinosaurs' as were many other bands in the mainstream rock press. Prog rock had thrived when there was a base of music critics who took them seriously. When that changed it was the beginning of the end. Punk Rock was a much more serious thing than you are crediting it for being and a lot of those guys were well aware of prog bands and even liked them. But too many prog artists were stuck up their own bums and were unable to change. Also plain fact of it is that ELP, Yes, Genesis, Supertramp and many more bands of the classic era were running on fumes and their glory days were in the past. Pink Floyd were always a bit late to the party but kind of adapted because they could see what was happening. ELP should have been too big to fail but history tells us otherwise. His Piano Concerto was indeed a step too far but not because it was bad but because of perception (up own arse and all that). Maybe Love Beach was an attempt to look relaxed and 'hey look at us guys we can get down with the kids etc' . It was utterly unconvincing and actually terrible in a very real way. At least with the Piano Concerto, Keith was being authentic and true to himself. Don't ever lose that or you have nothing.
It is an old and shabby myth that punk rock hurt the popularity of old bands in 1977. I don't know how it is even possible that some people still believe it! For instance, Genesis in 1977 filled arenas on their Wind and Wuthering Tour; Jethro Tull's "Songs from the Wood" reached number 13 on the UK Albums Chart; this indicates that during the summer of punk, a prog-folk album had a significant presence; Pink Floyd's "Animals," upon its release on January 21, 1977, reached no. 2 on the UK Albums Chart. "Even in the Quietest Moments..." is Supertramp's first gold-selling record, etc.
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