Their debut album was quite good. And the side long suite of Tarkus was excellent too [the side 2 was a collection of shorter songs, I remember, some of which were decent as well]. 'Works Vol 1' had it's high points as well. What I found average was their adaptation of the Mudgorsky's [I am sure I am spelling his name wrong ] classical suite.

I found their adaptations of songs like 'Karn Evil 9' on the live LP to be superior than the equivalent album versions. However, come the 80s and the band deteriorated in quality. However, even if I judge personally on a per capita basis of "number of great songs that I liked vis a vis total output", they lie far ahead of Genesis, for me, whose Phil Collins era my ears can't tolerate for no reason. 'Jethro Tull' had the brilliant Aqualung and the decent 'Thick As a Brick' but their early albums don't gel well with me.

This is what I meant about ELP upsetting the purists - those songs provided some light relief from the heavier, lengthier stuff and showed off their versatility.  Poor ELP, not allowed to mess about.  Ham or cheese?

No such thing as 'short messy tracks' on Tarkus.   Blasphemer!  

My opinion is that the internet helped convince people that they were too overblown and not as good as other prog bands and people believed it. Before I got online I never really heard anything bad about ELP. Some of their songs were played quite a bit on rock radio probably up until the early 2000s or so. These days I don't think they even get played much on classic rock radio (or any radio). Yes had almost the same fate but at least they are still lauded by most prog fans.

What contemporary talents in particular do you have in mind?

However, I understand and agree with many of the previous post's proposed explanations . 

You are dead wrong about ELP. All their early LPs should be ranked in the Top 100.

Thank you.

Hi,

I find this sad, and perhaps not quite looked at ... AT THE TIME ... and what most bands were doing. ELP put together a PIANO CONCERTO (Tarkus), done in those early styles with loud and bombastic keyboards ... but the day that you sit and listen to Rachel Flower do this on the piano, or organ, you will find right away that this is incredible ... and the side 2 of the album being "filler" ... how you gonna follow up a masterpiece? You and I would probably mess that up too! Your soup is gonna pale in comparison! What's the sugar doing here?

If there is something unusual and clear about ELP was their take on classical music, but when you hear them on a cold night and an empty stadium in Montreal ... the first thing you can say is ... wow! 

I think a lot of folks, in those days, were kinda new to the FM radio band and its lack of "hits" and many of those stations put on a lot of stuff, and of course, sooner or later, the sheriff would be fun to play to lighten up the evening amidst overstuffed materials in rock music. 

I believe that part of the issue is that we dislike classical music, and on top of it, we want the hits ... not the album ... and as someone specified these days, no one buys the album, only the song they want, so in essence most folks don't know the band, and worse ... they don't care, because they want the hits,  (per Mike Rutherford, btw) and are not interested in the album at all! This is what the "commercial" status of the whole progressive and progrock thing has come to ... it has to have a number and be listed for most folks to even bother checking it out ... never mind the rest of the band! 

I kinda think that the record companies are laughing all the way to the bank, still collecting their nickels and dimes via the streaming services they own. It's still a sort of "singles" bar, isn't it? Who cares about the person when all you want is ... 

Good thing you are not a true musician with several albums ... you would have died a long time ago! 

Hi,

In the early days, and PAAE was from 1971, I think the whole "art rock" thing was based on a lot of classical music, and The Nice (previous Keith Emerson) had also done a lot of it. That it was "pompous" was not a surprise ... c'mon ... 2001 had brought out the pompous like nothing we had ever seen, and then, it got to the Cinerama Dome, which was even more pompous and crazy and far out for the stoned mind, at least. 

I always thought that many bands, and ELP was not the only one, were trying to let folks know that there was a lot of far out music out there that we did not listen to, because we were so attached to radio and its pop tendencies, even though FM radio being independent at the time, presented even more choices that we would not otherwise have heard or considered. When you think of the conventional band line up and all of a sudden you get ELP doing classical music, it was far out ... I mean FAR OUT ... and way out there, but it was special, and I, for one, appreciated since I loved classical music and had been into it for several years, since just before the Beatles and Rolling Stones appeared on the radio in Brazil. The interpretations, were excellent, and very faithful in general, and that was no different than 10 different conductors doing Stravinsky ... they all had their moments and different details ... and ELP had theirs.

Up until things blew apart by 1972 or so, classical music was still important and had a large sales base. It was by this time that things changed considerably and today, classical music is nearly dead, because there are no "hits" to listen to, and you can't needle and peck Mozart, or Beethoven like you can 99.9% of all rock and jazz music!

I like to say, and think, that the one thing missing in a lot of progressive and progrock fans, is a little more appreciation for music as a whole and its history ... but I'm not sure that most fans, can get away from the commercial elements that the majority of us (here specially) are attuned to ... it just about has to be numbered and have a hit, or not enough folks will give a darn!

It's about the music ... plain, simple and pure. And in my book we have to define that a lot better!

Trilogy is in my own top 10 and I love Works Vol.1. I think I'm a fan and I often go to Rachel's versions of Piano concerto N.1 and Tarkus.

But I have to admit that I listen to Camel and Renaissance more often

I love Trilogy and Works Vol. 1...

Hi,

Strange ... so the more conventional progrock bands since the 1970's are better? What are we wanting? More pop songs, with the same format and style and (above all) the same instrumentation?

I think, and I will restate this, I think ... that we are not listening to the music at all, and are, instead, wanting to hear what we want, not what an artist has to offer. It's OK to not be a "fan" that does not prefer ELP, but I am concerned with the idea that someone doing things very differently, is being judged as poor simply because it does not have the (preferred) setup for a rock band that ends up in the top 100 ... that's just nutz and crazy in my book.

In the 1970's, just like the 1960's, we all wanted the different stuff so we could get away from that teeny weeny stupid sound from the pop bands ... and now we criticize them for having broken the mold in half and blow the AM radio control (the hit radio with numbers!!!) to almost nothing these days.

This is about the artistry in the work of a band ... and just hearing the conventional crap that is listed is not exactly what most of us 50 some years ago got into the music for! WE wanted a change ... now, it's like forget the change, give me the numbered band and the hit .. .again ... the very thing we tried so hard to get away from!

History, my friend ... history ... and before we know it, we will need a major WW so the complete destruction of a lot of everything maybe ... maybe ... helps us find our way to something new ... it's not about the numbers, or the hits ... it's about the music itself.

Then they doubled down on what went wrong with Love Beach and gave us In the Hot Seat. I know many people on this site don't enjoy ELPowell and Black Moon, but I really feel these albums gave them a whole new fanbase without disparaging their 1970's legacy. And then they flushed it all away with In the Hot Seat. How many bands get to release TWO career-killing nightmares?

Fair. ITHS was slightly more excusable for reasons I won't go into and have detailed before. There was to be a new epic (Crossing The Rubicon being the working title I think) and a new album in the pipeline following some extensive touring in the late 90's but Greg Lake insisted on producing it (without any new songs to offer) and Emerson said 'no'. That was it for ELP (except for the 2010's live festival headline appearance at High Voltage). Emerson formed a very nice musical partnership with American Marc Bonilla for most of the 00's and 10's but never quite conquered those demons. Palmer keeps the flame alive with his ELP legacy band but the lack of audience numbers is often telling.

Love Beach needed an orchestra possibly but Emerson and Lake clearly hated the album and never made any attempt to resurrect any of it in any future incarnation of ELP or either's solo touring bands. That was telling enough imo.

Hi,

I kinda find this sad in many ways, as if he were not important on so much of the work ELP did in their albums ... but the drumming style of accentuating the lyrics and the musical moments, is not the preferred style these days ... these days, it's all about the counting and the metronomic drummer that accentuates nothing, and is not even listening to the music, when all he is doing is counting and telling the band when to do something different, when this drummer will added something fancy on the transition ... wow ... high school drumming at its best!

I turn off a lot of the numbered bands at this point ... when it is obvious that the musicianship is working on the timing and the clock and not the music ... very commercial, and what is weird is that we are a progressive bunch, but we seem to not remember that many times and endup saying that an average band with average drums and design or format ... is better than the more expressive and valuable work that stretches the musical learning of the players ... hard to think that on many of the bands listed on top ten anything here.

It's hard listening sometimes, when most are so while noised into believing that the worst drumming and time keeping is better than Carl Palmer ... it's very sad all around, and then some folks think that MP is better because he had not one setup, but two, for doing a whole lot of "not much" on the recent album. I can only think of it as ... I got the money and the love, so show off every bit of it! I do not find his work in this latest album worth a whole lot of attention, specially as someone of his caliber is only repeating everything he has done before ... that's not listening to the music itself, that's making sure the music fits his defined numbers, and that would mean he is not exactly listening to the guitar or bass, he's counting!

It's no wonder some folks hate the best and most innovative works in the 2th century ... you can't do any counting on Stravinsky. But that conglomeration of folks managed to fit it into a 4/4 ... and it was ridiculous, as it became just a one instrument thing playing the melody, which is not what you listen to Stravinsky for. And there are many pieces in rock music that have the same issue ... it's not easy for any of us to sit here and time all of TFTO ... it changes too much and you have to adjust ... but sadly, how many bands listed you will hear, the music change to something else ... and the drummer is doing the same thing, just faster or slower ... wow ... you cal lthat drumming? IN high school it's OK, but not in the pros!

I think their first 4 studio lps are excellent as well as  the live Pictures lp.

As far as their debut being only 94 on the list as many have said ideas and opinions change over time about bands and their lps. 

Their debut lp is one of my all time favorite prog lps in my collection.

To me they are one of the best prog bands ever with Floyd, Genesis and Yes. And yes, I absolutely agree their albums are underranked compared to the other "Big 6" bands, especially considering as its been mentioned that bands that were far less popular and iconic also have their albums ranked higher.

Fully agreed. I never understood the whole Tarkus second side is not that good. I don't think it's worse than the "other side" of other albums that have a side-long suite like Foxtrot, Meddle, etc. which people never talk badly about the non-suite side. 

AFlowerKingCrimson wrote: In the US in the 70s they were quite a bit more popular than Genesis.

Their flaw to me is their decline post-1974. Works are mediocre, Love Beach is over-hated but it's still a poo album. ITHS is pretty bad, Re-Works is terrible. Black Moon and ELPowell are pretty decent though, especially the former. 

Hi,

At the time, and listening to a FM radio station that played it all at the time, there was no such thing as a lack of appreciation for ELP or any of the bands mentioned, and I think that the only folks that tick that box are the ones that are not exactly "progressive" music folks, and would rather go listen to something more conventional and listed with a number on the monthly this and that, to make it look like these folks are better, and more important than the music itself. 

At the very least, a lot of the FM radio would make many of those folks leave and go listen to the rinky dinky AM stations and their hits, because, if anything, they were even mentioned in Variety ... and not much in the FM dial was listed anywhere.

Today, with the Internet, what is missing, is fans with a sense of history, and understanding, so it seems, so they don't think that ELP is crap, simply because there is no loud guitar, cheap drumming, and a growl or two ... that's not a music fan ... !!!!

I don't remember anyone, and my roomie was one of the folks in that number 1 station with his Space Pirate Radio show, say so much poor and bad stuff, as it happens here ... it's embarrassing ... but I know one thing those folks don't ... those bands will be remembered for a lot longer than folks making those troll'ish comments.

Another exaggeration... 

While it's true that some people do not understand context or as you say, miss a sense of history, nobody's ever complained about ELP's lack of loud guitar, or complained about Palmer's drumming, or lack of growls (a singing style that came much, much later, seriously, such a weird comment). 

Hi,

It was a generic comment, and not intended to be taken seriously, or directly as you have. 

The point was, that the music, in those days, was so different, that few people that posted here on this thread can really relate to it, and I don't mean that badly, in the sense that the times are different, but looking at ELP as if it were a today's band, that should be listed in the monthly numbers, or year end best of lists, makes it look like this old band is not that good ... and I find that sad ... to me it's like saying that Stravinsky is old and dead, and the music is crap ... and that would be a comment on the knowledge of music a lot more on the reality of the situation, and a bit about the history of music, that is/was, once again, poor ... remember that Debussy was booed, and Ravel was thrown garbage for a while.

With the media today, we have a chance to set things right, and give the folks that deserve it a chance, and instead, the only thing that can be said is making a comment about what I said instead of adding to the thread.

I stand up to be counted, and was there when the music came around ... a lot of folks here would not be there at all because of the commercial reality of things that is so visible today ... not that it wasn't THEN, but that was EXACTLY what we revolted against, and the FM radio dial was our great helper ... to the point that we still discuss that music. Shame that there is little appreciation for what so many folks did and helped this music, and have to put up with some comments!

But, that's not to say that there were not comments on ELP then. There were, but I think that many folks were confused with their classical nature opposite their pop/rock stuff. It didn't bother me a whole lot, because it was far out ... but in today's style and parlayance, I think ELP would be trashed even more, specially with anyone being able to say whatever they want, regardless. 

And it is very sad that it is all about the "preferences" and not the music itself ... there is nothing more that a true musician wants than appreciation for their work. It's what an art is for, and what artists live for. 

ELP was all albout those early albums though. I like Works Vol One but 3 sides of solo music was too much for even die hard ELP fans while the later albums were confused messes excepting Black Moon perhaps. But then we get ITHS (2 steps back after 1 forward). I did think about Genesis but actually ATTWT and Duke were fine and well put together records. Later records were not so bad as their reputations excepting CAS but no one really thinks that's a Genesis record anyway. The Who were mainly a live band with one stellar studio album. The comment about Floyd is strange (WYWH and Animals???!!)

Pink Floyd still made decent work post 1974 but many other prog giants didn't. VdGG latter half of the repertoire plays it quite safe and somewhat bland. The Who actually did a farewell tour in 1982, I think, called Who's Last in support of their then LP [It's Hard was it?]. That had Eminence Front , considered by many to be the last great song by the band. Half of the band then re grouped[2 members] to make couple of more albums this side of the century and they couldn't even touch half the greatness of Who's Next.

Led Zeppelin were one of the few bands to call it quits and not have a rotating cast of character for the band due to which they were canonized in rock history [despite Robert Plant himself holding his past lyricism not in any high esteem].

Hi,

I think THE WHO did it for the money that was being offered. Without Keith and John, they were not a very good band, and it kinda said it all ... those two added something to the band that was really good all around, and while Keith was appreciated after he left us, John has (pretty much) been ignored for his touch and taste. Honestly, for me, Pete was grossly over rated, and the most that folks remember him for is him being an idiot and doing Bonzo Dog Impressions (Legs Larry Smith taught Keith how to trash drums and such!), and kinda taking it to an extreme (Woodstock), which was not something about his musicianship or talent ... it was something about a young man that didn't care, as much about things as we did ... and trashing them was a way to say ... I'm rich, and you are not. A very good thing in those days in terms of what fame was, that is still going on today with the Internet.

LZ is a different beast. RP not thinking much of his early lyrics is not surprising. I think he is tired of the accolades and everything else, and even after a drink, it starts getting monotonous and sick, so one way to let go the boredom is to say something about it, that will get any writers, or interviewers, asking different questions, and hopefully change the subject, or he is gone.

The main thing, though, is that Pete and Roger look really tired and not interested or happy. At the very least, all three members left from LZ have a wider appreciation for their work, and how they went out at the top when Bonzo passed away. And they look much better at their history. THE WHO by comparison always felt like they were fighting something all the time, and it got tired after a while, even though they have some fantastic material.

It had nothing to do with competition. ELP were already labelled 'Dinosaurs' as were many other bands in the mainstream rock press. Prog rock had thrived when there was a base of music critics who took them seriously. When that changed it was the beginning of the end. Punk Rock was a much more serious thing than you are crediting it for being and a lot of those guys were well aware of prog bands and even liked them. But too many prog artists were stuck up their own bums and were unable to change. Also plain fact of it is that ELP, Yes, Genesis, Supertramp and many more bands of the classic era were running on fumes and their glory days were in the past. Pink Floyd were always a bit late to the party but kind of adapted because they could see what was happening. ELP should have been too big to fail but history tells us otherwise. His Piano Concerto was indeed a step too far but not because it was bad but because of perception (up own arse and all that). Maybe Love Beach was an attempt to look relaxed and 'hey look at us guys we can get down with the kids etc' . It was utterly unconvincing and actually terrible in a very real way. At least with the Piano Concerto, Keith was being authentic and true to himself. Don't ever lose that or you have nothing.

The debut is my personal favorite. I find it to be the most consistent plus no silly cowboy songs.

Hi,

My guess is that Keith's words and comments about serious music, and attempts at being classical, were trashed by a lot of rock critics, that enjoyed the musicianship, but hated the "ditties". And it became fair game, and Keith should have told them all to ... as Frank Zappa did right from the start ... he never had to apologize for his music ... and folks, and reviewers stopped harassing him on it. But, then, it wasn't until "Overnight Sensation" that the rock folks immediately jumped in and started saying what a genius Frank was. So Frank flipped them all off again ... and sold out many places non-stop for several years to his end.

You have to stand up for your music, and not doubt it ... and I think that ELP felt they had to excuse themselves for doing this or that ... and they should have told many of those ... farts ... where to go stuff it! They did not need those goons, not to mention that none of them ever bought an album, either!

I mean not necessarily disagreeing with you but... based on reviews from this site I think most people don't let Genesis "get away" with that one. 

richardh wrote: Works is a slow burner but you probably need to be a fan. Back in the day I played Tarkus to death to the point that I started to listen to Works more and realised it was actually a good album. Closer To Believing in fact became a favourite track of mine and still is for me one of Lake's best songs (with help from Peter Sinfield) but like a lot of doubles maybe it could have done with a bit of fat trimming. Keith Emerson's Piano Concerto obviously belonged on a solo album more than anything else on the album that was potentially more adaptable to the band as a whole.

Yes, Maybe I do need to re-listen to the album in a quiet place again. I would probably appreciate it slightly more maybe. I do like atleast couple of ELP's albums very much [debut and Tarkus],so I am atleast a partial fan :p. The album does have some bloat and can do with some toning down, as you said.