Prog Died in 1979?????

DarksideofAbel wrote: Logan wrote: Prog didn't die in 1979, it's just been resting. Norway has had a very strong scene, what with its Norwegian Blue parrots. It they seem listless, they're just pining for the fjords. Anyway, progressive music has long been fusing styles since before Prog became a known-thing, and it continued to do so. I think in the 80s it is interesting how punk and art rock came together (think This Heat, Camberwell Now, Cardiacs) and Prog with goth etc. Post-Rock has been a very interesting development, I think. Today we have adventurous bands like Squid and black midi. It does become harder over time to be originative, but I always thought that the progressive spirit was innovative (and [EDIT meant to say NOT] so originative) and innovation still happens. But I care about the music itself more than originality one might shallowly say, and I like a lot of retro music (especially of the more psychedelic, electronic and Krautrock varieties) There is this big Prog umbrella. I do tend to find the ones in the more melodic Symph vein less interesting these days than many of the ones found in Avant Prog, Post Rock, electronica... Juts little digression if I had not digressed enough already: I love the modern music, I love the 2020's, I love the 2010s, I love the 2000s, I love the 90s, I love the 80s, I love the 70s, I love the 60s (I also love the late 50s and much earlier compositions). I actually don't care that much if one considers what I like to be Prog genre. A genre can be definitionally limiting and as it becomes more codified and stratified there is less room for experimentation and innovation often. I like to think of Progressive music, and that which is not bound to genre conventions (can fuse genres, play with form etc.)  well put!! But!! It did die!.

I do NOT believe that it did die as a genre, an approach or attitude or spirit or even as a movement (not much of movement by 1980 if one can consider there to be a movement). I am confident that both Prog as a genre and progressive music by approach did not die.

*cue more Monty Python with the "argument" sketch* "Yes it did." No it didn't (at least I am not at all confident that it did)." "Yes it did!" "No it didn't. "Yes it did!!"... "Look, this isn't an argument, it's just contradiction." "Yes it is!!!" "No it isn't."....

{I do need to proof-read more before I post}

Edited by Logan - June 19 2024 at 16:32

Logan wrote: DarksideofAbel wrote: Logan wrote: Prog didn't die in 1979, it's just been resting. Norway has had a very strong scene, what with its Norwegian Blue parrots. It they seem listless, they're just pining for the fjords. Anyway, progressive music has long been fusing styles since before Prog became a known-thing, and it continued to do so. I think in the 80s it is interesting how punk and art rock came together (think This Heat, Camberwell Now, Cardiacs) and Prog with goth etc. Post-Rock has been a very interesting development, I think. Today we have adventurous bands like Squid and black midi. It does become harder over time to be originative, but I always thought that the progressive spirit was innovative (and [EDIT meant to say NOT] so originative) and innovation still happens. But I care about the music itself more than originality one might shallowly say, and I like a lot of retro music (especially of the more psychedelic, electronic and Krautrock varieties) There is this big Prog umbrella. I do tend to find the ones in the more melodic Symph vein less interesting these days than many of the ones found in Avant Prog, Post Rock, electronica... Juts little digression if I had not digressed enough already: I love the modern music, I love the 2020's, I love the 2010s, I love the 2000s, I love the 90s, I love the 80s, I love the 70s, I love the 60s (I also love the late 50s and much earlier compositions). I actually don't care that much if one considers what I like to be Prog genre. A genre can be definitionally limiting and as it becomes more codified and stratified there is less room for experimentation and innovation often. I like to think of Progressive music, and that which is not bound to genre conventions (can fuse genres, play with form etc.)  well put!! But!! It did die!.  I do need believe that it did die as a genre, an approach or attitude or spirit or even as a movement (not much of movement by 1980 if one can consider there to be a movement). I am confident that both Prog as a genre and progressive music by approach did not die. *cue more Monty Python with the "argument" sketch* "Yes it did." No it didn't (at least I am not at all confident that it did)." "Yes it did!" "No it didn't. "Yes it did!!"... "Look, this isn't an argument, it's just contradiction." "Yes it is!!!" "No it isn't."....

we live different times!!! humans these days depends on their account of Facebook or YouTube likes and view!!!!! money is the king!!!!! I know I am going to a different topic!!! but I hope you know what I mean!!!.

I do not think prog died at all, ever. 70s prog died, but prog in general has evolved and morphed into something new. It happens with every genre. 80s hip hop is a lot different than the hip hop of today. 50s jazz is different than jazz today. Music is a constantly evolving force and will continue to evolve. Prog didn't die, it evolved.

I really dislike wading into these arguments anymore because I find them to be tedious and pointless. Many (not all) on here will stick to their opinions and cling to them despite lacking a wider view. But I do want to hone in on one thing that I'm noticing in some of these arguments. Regardless of whether or not one thinks prog, or even in music in general, died, or became worthless or whatever, after the 70s or the 80s or the 90s or insert time period (classifying cultural and artistic movements by decade, and also deciding that the decade of interest must begin with the year ending in 0 and end with the year ending in 9, is totally arbitrary anyway, and simply a by-product of a base-10 numbering system), there is one thing here that needs to be debunked. The music industry has ALWAYS been about making money. Yes, there have been changes in culture and philosophy, and certain producers and executives have had different sets of ethos and ideas on music. But we are DELUDING ourselves if we think that it's ever NOT been about making money. Yeah, there are outliers, there are those on the fringe who have been able to work around this, but they come from any time period. If one enjoys a certain time period of music and laments the changes that have happened since that time period, that is purely subjective. Either dig harder for stuff you like that's contemporary, or just admit that you don't feel like trying anymore and stick to what you enjoy easily. There's no problem with either. But if you think that one period of music was just more "authentic," it's just because that style of music was able to be sold then (generally, again, there are outliers; RIO movement comes to mind, but there modern-day outliers too). It has always been about making money. It used to be about selling records. Now it's about streams (and for the musicians, merch, because streams don't make them enough). But it's ALL PRODUCT to the companies that make the money off the artists.

peterbabadelis wrote: Progressive rock died when ELP disbanded.

Interesting. How would you defend your statement?

peterbabadelis wrote: Progressive rock died when ELP disbanded.

The pressures for musicians to be less progressive seemed to be the attitude in 1980. I remember traveling in that ..I guess I could say that it was a music scene in the late 70s on the east coast of the U.S. that was pretty massive in terms of the gatherings themselves. For years I'm playing these Rock clubs that were designed like a concert hall and then by 86' it crumbled and important people bailed out of the music business. Important booking agencies that specialized in promoting a specific style of Rock.

People that invested in lighting and built tremendous light shows. People who were sincerely interested in giving the band a presentation. They sold their companies ..or outright quit because of a rude awakening. Everything was going so good for 2 decades straight and by mid 80s the business started to surely decrease all of its values and interest ..then die ...then try to make a comeback in the 90s without all the important people because they had quit.

The music had changed in 1980 regarding the interest of the record companies. They wanted to back bands like Blondie, The Police, The Pretenders... Rock Music was still fairly huge in theaters and Rock Clubs. Rick Derringer, Johnny Winter, Badfinger in the late 70s & early 80s were generally traveling around the east coast..

Progressive Rock gradually became obsolete in the business. There was a time when you drove to a gig to play Jethro Tull, Genesis and Yes for a packed house. When I played that circuit in 76' it was massive. Cover bands on the east coast of the U.S. during the 70s were treated like concert bands. They were not what people define as a bar band today. It was a completely different concept.

The demand of Prog was insane. Your paycheck came from playing Prog 6 nights a week. The money was surprisingly decent and the venues were usually packed with young people who wanted to hear Thick As A Brick or Watcher Of The Skies..I mean it was insane. I played The T-Zodiac when the radio announced that Steve Hackett had just left Genesis. People in the crowd acted as if he was an important person in Genesis and they were judgemental and generally disappointed about it. That's extreme.

People were definitely fanatical. I recall traveling the national circuit and hearing music fans negative remarks about Steve Hackett Cured...and saying that he sold out. Society was quite different about music then. It was really confusing and difficult to sum up. Simplicity was in New Wave and people liked it..however it seemed that in the early 80s the Prog snob mentality was full blown. Additionally there was a lot of competition in the Jazz Rock scene of the 70s. I hate egos. You should always be humble about music.

The divided packs of musicians that I knew on the road . Two different sides. One was all about being commercially viable somehow or a phony sell out if they had to and the other focused on music as an art form...some of them being quite snobby depending on their outlook ...other times conditioned by methods to follow in the science of music taught to them in a particular university and pretty anal and anti nature . Laughed at unorthodox recording techniques...the Synthesizer etc.

Eventually more people sold out or towed the line in order to survive. Less and less of playing in a Progressive manner on an instrument. Clubs, theaters, Concert halls began a major shut down in the 90s. Bars took over. Bad idea. After 1979 the music business went through a major change by making that quantum leap with New Wave. It's wasn't such a bad thing. Frank Zappa worked with several musicians who pursued playing in a New Wave band..but the overall idea of playing something progressive on stage became sparse. That can be attributed to all the rules of the circuit being changed in 1980. It was like playing on New Years Eve 1979....playing Jethro Tull and Yes...then in the first week of January 1980 all managers & agents are telling you to sweep Progressive Rock under the rug. Everything changed.



Edited by Jacob Schoolcraft - June 21 2024 at 19:03

I listened to Blå Vardag by the 'skånska' band Atlas, from 1979. Fantastic album.

yes