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Prog Died in 1979?????

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Hrychu View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2024 at 09:55
Originally posted by SeanTrane SeanTrane wrote:

I know fairly little about Brazil's music industry (outside a few stars in jazz), but in a nutshell, it seems to moi, that the best era is also the 60/70's.
I have a friend who's Brazilian and I've heard them say the opposite!

In the 60s/70s in Brazil the music making scene was much less advanced than in the digital age (compared to 1st world countries) due to the super limited availability of gear and decent musical instruments. During that time only a handful of artists in Brazil had the conditions to record songs let alone release them. The fact even now it's nearly impossible to find any vintage musical equipment on the used market in Brazil is a testament to that.

Edited by Hrychu - June 14 2024 at 09:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2024 at 12:29
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Originally posted by SeanTrane SeanTrane wrote:

I know fairly little about Brazil's music industry (outside a few stars in jazz), but in a nutshell, it seems to moi, that the best era is also the 60/70's.
I have a friend who's Brazilian and I've heard them say the opposite!

In the 60s/70s in Brazil the music making scene was much less advanced than in the digital age (compared to 1st world countries) due to the super limited availability of gear and decent musical instruments. During that time only a handful of artists in Brazil had the conditions to record songs let alone release them. The fact even now it's nearly impossible to find any vintage musical equipment on the used market in Brazil is a testament to that.

Hi,

Weird ... their jazz scene did very well during that time ... but I guess we will not deal with that because it ain't "progressive something" ... 

The musical instruments might have been behind the times, the economy alone would make the purchase of something well known nearly impossible. But it never stopped the singers, and the classical and jazz side of things ... my take would become that there was not, as yet, a proper venue for the sale of records, but when I was there, Roberto Carlos and Maria Betania had no problems being noticed at all, and we heard them on the little radio! Carcara was a single, but there was nowhere to buy it in Assis and Araraquara (state of Sao Paulo) ... 

I bet the likelihood is that there was an "economy" in the large cities, but the rest of the country was too many small towns, and I bet sales stunk badly.


Edited by moshkito - June 14 2024 at 12:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Floydoid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2024 at 14:36
Originally posted by DarksideofAbel DarksideofAbel wrote:

Originally posted by Floydoid Floydoid wrote:

Prog didn't die in 1979, it merely slipped under the radar of the average music fan.

Tho I agree the classic era (where most of the prog I love is from) is approximately 1968-78.

 
 As you can see yourself!  it did die!!!  as most of the prog that you love and I bet most of us as well, it is from 1968-79!!!  We like new bands from there on (1980 - 2024) due to nostalgia!!!! Cry



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2024 at 16:44
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Originally posted by SeanTrane SeanTrane wrote:

I know fairly little about Brazil's music industry (outside a few stars in jazz), but in a nutshell, it seems to moi, that the best era is also the 60/70's.
I have a friend who's Brazilian and I've heard them say the opposite!

In the 60s/70s in Brazil the music making scene was much less advanced than in the digital age (compared to 1st world countries) due to the super limited availability of gear and decent musical instruments. During that time only a handful of artists in Brazil had the conditions to record songs let alone release them. The fact even now it's nearly impossible to find any vintage musical equipment on the used market in Brazil is a testament to that.

shirley you jest, my young know-it-all forum memberConfusedTongueWink


Notwithstanding the recording technology that indeed got "better" (very debatableGeek) in the 80's and reached places where it didn't exist before (Ginger Baker (Cream and BGA) created the first recording studio of the African continent  in Lagos Nigeria in +/- 75), it's not because the technology became available and accessible (remains to be seen in terms of finances) that it improved the artistic creation process. 


here (this thread), we're mostly talking of artistic value, not technology.
I won't talk much of samba, because I only vaguely know what that englobes, but... its heyday probably pre-dating the recording industry. 
 But you mean to tell me that 50/60/70's bossa nova (that invaded the rest of the planet) was topped in later decades in terms of quality.  I mean getting better than Jobim, Gilberto (both), Gil, Nascimento, Pascoal, & Co??

I'm curious how you're going to top that second-wave of bossa?? 





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2024 at 17:08
I think it's safe to say the "classic era of progressive rock music" died by 1979. By that time, the greatest albums by the following bands had already been released:

Yes
Genesis
Jethro Tull
King Crimson
Pink Floyd
Gentle Giant
Van der Graaf Generator
Emerson, Lake & Palmer
The Moody Blues
Procol Harum
Camel
Premiata Forneria Marconi 
Kansas
Strawbs
Hawkwind
Caravan
Gong
Magma
Soft Machine
Renaissance
Frank Zappa
U.K.
Area
Colosseum
Triumvirat

Once could say the same for tangential bands in fusion and rock:
The Who
Led Zeppelin
Return to Forever
Weather Report
Mahavishnu Orchestra
Santana
Fairport Convention
Pentangle
Miles Davis

I could go on, but the point has been made. That, my friends, was the first generation of prog and the most influential. And based on the ratings on PA, still the most popular and highly rated. Argue amongst yourselves, if you wish. 



Edited by The Dark Elf - June 14 2024 at 17:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valdez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2024 at 17:40
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

I think it's safe to say the "classic era of progressive rock music" died by 1979. By that time, the greatest albums by the following bands had already been released:

Yes
Genesis
Jethro Tull
King Crimson
Pink Floyd
Gentle Giant
Van der Graaf Generator
Emerson, Lake & Palmer
The Moody Blues
Procol Harum
Camel
Premiata Forneria Marconi 
Kansas
Strawbs
Hawkwind
Caravan
Gong
Magma
Soft Machine
Renaissance
Frank Zappa
U.K.
Area
Colosseum
Triumvirat

Once could say the same for tangential bands in fusion and rock:
The Who
Led Zeppelin
Return to Forever
Weather Report
Mahavishnu Orchestra
Santana
Fairport Convention
Pentangle
Miles Davis

I could go on, but the point has been made. That, my friends, was the first generation of prog and the most influential. And based on the ratings on PA, still the most popular and highly rated. Argue amongst yourselves, if you wish. 


Well... When you put it that way. lol

Those were the days.

Pre-Digital Era
Pre DAW Era
Big Stadium Era
FM Radio Era
Big Money (for the bands & Labels) Era
Young Boomers Era (Now in 70's or older)
Vinyl Record Era
Fewer Bands in competition due to Recording Cost and inability to promote without bankroll.

I think Younger folks may find some latter-day prog that isn't Dead and put it on a pedestal
like we did. But Jailhouse Culture permeates the airwaves today.  
https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2024 at 20:19
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Originally posted by SeanTrane SeanTrane wrote:

I know fairly little about Brazil's music industry (outside a few stars in jazz), but in a nutshell, it seems to moi, that the best era is also the 60/70's.
I have a friend who's Brazilian and I've heard them say the opposite!

In the 60s/70s in Brazil the music making scene was much less advanced than in the digital age (compared to 1st world countries) due to the super limited availability of gear and decent musical instruments. During that time only a handful of artists in Brazil had the conditions to record songs let alone release them. The fact even now it's nearly impossible to find any vintage musical equipment on the used market in Brazil is a testament to that.


shirley you jest, my young know-it-all forum memberConfusedTongueWink


Notwithstanding the recording technology that indeed got "better" (very debatableGeek) in the 80's and reached places where it didn't exist before (Ginger Baker (Cream and BGA) created the first recording studio of the African continent  in Lagos Nigeria in +/- 75), it's not because the technology became available and accessible (remains to be seen in terms of finances) that it improved the artistic creation process. 


here (this thread), we're mostly talking of artistic value, not technology.
I won't talk much of samba, because I only vaguely know what that englobes, but... its heyday probably pre-dating the recording industry. 
 But you mean to tell me that 50/60/70's bossa nova (that invaded the rest of the planet) was topped in later decades in terms of quality.  I mean getting better than Jobim, Gilberto (both), Gil, Nascimento, Pascoal, & Co??

I'm curious how you're going to top that second-wave of bossa?? 





.


Okay. :) I'm glad to have held a thorough and intellectual conversation with someone equally passionate about music. I'm sorry that I came off as a know-it-all to you. I didn't mean that. Huge respect!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 15 2024 at 01:40
Originally posted by DarksideofAbel DarksideofAbel wrote:

Please mention any bands after 1979 that are different from the 70's prog bands.
 
You've already mentioned bands from the prog metal genres, but there are two other prog genres here on PA that are modern and don't really sound like the prog bands of the '70s: Post Rock/Math Rock and Experimental/Post Metal.
 
I don't really have much music from these genres, so it's hard for me to make recommendations, but I will post this from the Experimental/Post Metal genre:
 
Helium Horse Fly - Helium Horse Fly - Adrift:
 
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 15 2024 at 05:14
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

I think it's safe to say the "classic era of progressive rock music" died by 1979. By that time, the greatest albums by the following bands had already been released:
...
I could go on, but the point has been made. That, my friends, was the first generation of prog and the most influential. And based on the ratings on PA, still the most popular and highly rated. Argue amongst yourselves, if you wish. 


Hi,

It's hard to argue on the point you make. But it does say something else, which I could see happening ... by the end of the 70's we were all back into the top of the pops ... excuse me top of the progressive ... thing and were ignoring new materials coming out, because we thought what we had heard was the best already.

That's not a good take on the art form, or any art form. There was a lot of other music in Europe that deserved a listen, and didn't get it, because the number of folks giving them a "voice" were very limited, and not living in the past ... like your posting suggests, that our audience never woke up from those 15 years, but then ... many of the folks standing up for that time, are not helping show any new material that showed up after 1979 either ... and to me, that is a suggestion ...NOT THAT THE MUSIC DIED, but that a lot of ears lost the touch for listening to new material ... and were stuck in the past. And the best those folks could say was that Marillion was a copy ... instead of realizing that the band was not a fake, over blown long gone costume party!

Again, the arts never die ... it's the public that loses interest and takes on something else ... and of course, that something else is different ... but I'm not sure we should accuse the music for not being there, when the fans are the problem ... not the music itself. The death of FM radio didn't help either, as a the "freedom" that the American FM radio provided to help so many bands, was now gone and in the hands of the great corporate rapists ... now (STILL!!!) giving us classic rock ... and we don't give a damn! 

It's not the music or the art! That never dies!


Edited by moshkito - June 15 2024 at 05:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 15 2024 at 05:35
hi,

Some thoughts ... might not be appreciated by some!

It's really hard, sometimes to say that the arts died ... it never did, it just changed, or morphed into something else, that we did not listen to (in this case) ... and then all we can say ... is that it died.

It probably needed to die ... there are not many historical art scenes that lasted 50 years ... without it becoming something else ... but for some reason we're stuck in a definition that no longer FITS anything, but the music from those years from which it was brought out ... geee ... wow ... no wonder something else later doesn't fit ... but it never means that it died ... the arts, regardless of which, have never died, and we still teach and play instruments just like many other did 500 years ago! So, that takes the artistry out of the human something, and places it on a platter and throne ... that no one can reach again ... who the fudge would want another Mozart, Beethoven, Stravinsky and Genesis, and Pink Floyd ... gosh rest their souls ... but the new music and folks do not have to be like the previous ones ... 

Here is another example. Your daughter is blonde and has blue eyes ... and now she is not a "person" anymore, because she is compared to another blonde with blue eyes ... 50 years ago ... so screw your daughter? 

Why you doing the same thing to music and the arts? It has nothing to do with life or death ... it has to do with the music/arts birthing somewhere else ... and we continually refuse to appreciate the new blonde with blue eyes? 

Very weird!

I like DE's point, but sadly, it states that the definition has been "stretched" to match more than a time period ... and the newer material is not the same thing ... that's how the arts evolve!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2024 at 02:11
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

hi,

Some thoughts ... might not be appreciated by some!

It's really hard, sometimes to say that the arts died ... it never did, it just changed, or morphed into something else, that we did not listen to (in this case) ... and then all we can say ... is that it died.

It probably needed to die ... there are not many historical art scenes that lasted 50 years ... without it becoming something else ... but for some reason we're stuck in a definition that no longer FITS anything, but the music from those years from which it was brought out ... geee ... wow ... no wonder something else later doesn't fit ... but it never means that it died ... the arts, regardless of which, have never died, and we still teach and play instruments just like many other did 500 years ago! So, that takes the artistry out of the human something, and places it on a platter and throne ... that no one can reach again ... who the fudge would want another Mozart, Beethoven, Stravinsky and Genesis, and Pink Floyd ... gosh rest their souls ... but the new music and folks do not have to be like the previous ones ... 

Here is another example. Your daughter is blonde and has blue eyes ... and now she is not a "person" anymore, because she is compared to another blonde with blue eyes ... 50 years ago ... so screw your daughter? 

Why you doing the same thing to music and the arts? It has nothing to do with life or death ... it has to do with the music/arts birthing somewhere else ... and we continually refuse to appreciate the new blonde with blue eyes? 

Very weird!

I like DE's point, but sadly, it states that the definition has been "stretched" to match more than a time period ... and the newer material is not the same thing ... that's how the arts evolve!
Music is evolving and nowadays with so much better access to obscure music all over the globe, than in the 70s, it's up to the listener to choose their favorite music adjusted to taste.

One of the very few advantages of music in general being so diverse now, is that no subgenre is really dead. Because, even if something's much much less popular now than when it used to be in its prime, I can guarantee there's still someone out there who makes that kind of music and shares it online! ;) Even if super underground. You gotta keep looking! ;)

For a long time, I was under the impression that art of achieving that dead organic snappy muffled 70's drum sound died around the late 80's... until I found out that Fernando Perdomo actually does a great job at hearkening back to that magic sound recording vibe, in the modern recording era!

Edited by Hrychu - June 16 2024 at 02:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2024 at 19:32
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

 
...
For a long time, I was under the impression that art of achieving that dead organic snappy muffled 70's drum sound died around the late 80's... until I found out that Fernando Perdomo actually does a great job at hearkening back to that magic sound recording vibe, in the modern recording era!

Hi,

What it really states, is that "advertising" is not a major issue these days, and a lot of music has to stand up on its own, and this is something that many musicians are not exactly comfortable with, but it is the new reality ... and it is far out that you can find just about anything anywhere these days ... and I'm so glad to see the corporate reality out of it ... I really am, but they still control the airwaves and a lot of the Internet, though the international thing is very different ... but a band's material being shown in PA and other progressive sites, has a chance to sell some, but IF there is an issue here, it is that "progressive" is such a cult and a niche to the point of hurting many bands that live in the periphery of it all ... 

I think it will become clearer as time goes out, and some places, like bandcamp, spotify and such seem to be doing well, but I wonder how much they are helping the artist themselves. They certainly are not helping any of those artist rise in the ranks on a financial level, and that is an issue for me ... how can you take so much money in ... and no band ever comes out of it looking bigger than ever ... now we have to go backwards and look at what SW did with his band at the start (sold cassettes out of his garage .... ) and Marillion (got the fans to ensure they could get to the studio for another album) ... and eventually how some like Dream Theater got huge, without a big record company ... as did many other bands!

But I like the idea that the musician has more control now than ever ... and that commercial interests have no right to be stealing from the artists.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King Crimson776 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2024 at 01:15
No music being made now is particularly innovative. The late 60's / early 70's were a unique time in music history. Of course nothing that came after can compare.

New Wave wasn't even particularly innovative imo. Can people even describe the alleged innovations of that time period? One of the more distinct things you can point to is perhaps the fusion of Reggae with Rock that for example the Police did. In other words, Rock bands were squeezing the last drops out of the idea of fusing Rock with other genres.

After this, there are some innovations in Metal up through maybe the early 00's. There is nothing significant after that. In other words, there is no point in bemoaning the lack of innovation in modern Prog. There is no significant innovation anywhere in music. The focus should be on good songwriting instead. The whole point of innovation in the first place was to unlock new songwriting possibilities. There are plenty of good compositions within established styles that have yet to be written, and especially within Prog given that it allows for more expansive compositions.


Edited by King Crimson776 - June 17 2024 at 01:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King Crimson776 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2024 at 03:25
^ I think you've probably pointed to some of the most original modern groups there. Glad to see Jack o' the Clock mentioned. I think your choice of artists confirms my last sentence:

Originally posted by King Crimson776 King Crimson776 wrote:

There are plenty of good compositions within established styles that have yet to be written, and especially within Prog given that it allows for more expansive compositions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2024 at 05:21
I haven't seen Animals As Leaders mentioned. They were one of the bands that began the innovative style of djent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2024 at 08:05
Originally posted by King Crimson776 King Crimson776 wrote:

No music being made now is particularly innovative. The late 60's / early 70's were a unique time in music history. Of course nothing that came after can compare.
...

Hi,

I think this is unfair ... it means that their work is being compared to others, and they can not show their music on their own. 

I think this unfair, because what you get at times is ... sounds like ... and nothing is said about the musicianship of the band and its work at all.

If anyone takes away the comparative idea, you will find a lot of things that have a very interesting life of their own ... but I doubt most would see that since they are comparing things.

It's very disappointing to see new fans, and even old fans, and the only thing they can do is compare everything to the stuff they know ... look ... stop that crap ... there is only one Mozart. Only one Stravinsky. Only one Robert Fripp. and we will have the chance to find someone else, if we stop the comparison for our own enjoyment ... and THAT is not important in the debate whatsoever, except in your mind!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Jacob Schoolcraft Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2024 at 09:24
Bands like Gentle Giant, King Crimson, Genesis, Yes, Procol Harum and several others I have not mentioned were innovative. Most of these bands were inspired by specific Classical composers.

Imo...a lot of Prog bands in the 80s and 90s were inspired by these bands and obviously not the Classical composers..and to me that's when elements in Prog became a redundancy. Basically a repeat of perhaps what Crimson and Giant previously composed but shifted around a bit or rearranged to sound as if it was inspired as opposed to being lifted or copied.

I have always thought that if newer Prog bands had been inspired by a different choice of Classical composers that their original music wouldn't have sounded like the 70s Prog bands and possibly would have sounded just as unique and fresh as it did when it was first released in the 70s...but...no that is not the case. Instead they study what the 70s Prog bands did and are dismissive of the path in which those bands followed. ...which was to simply add the elements of Classical music written centuries ago. Instead they emulate the way Gentle Giant went about utilizing counterpoint. Don't do that. Instead realize counterpoint your own way. After all..thats what Gentle Giant did right? So why copy what they did and repeat it all again in a new decade?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Jacob Schoolcraft Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2024 at 13:05
I've been collecting Prog albums since the early 70s and over the years of listening and attending concerts I had the realization that much of the content within Prog composition began to sound the same. I began to notice similarities to the first wave of Prog bands in the music of the second wave of Prog bands.

After learning many pieces on guitar, drums and keyboards it became too obvious. Don't get me wrong...the second wave of Prog bands were spectacular..its just that the obvious notion of imitating someone else was in my face.

It wasn't insulting to me that the guitarist in PFM was sometimes sounding like Steve Howe. It wasn't that extreme.

What concerned me in the mid to late 70s was how a lot of bands were following a concept revolving around producing a style that had been done before and a mere handful of artists were turning out music that was new, creative, and innovative. For example...Robert Wyatt Rock Bottom didn't rely on extensive creations of others. I'm sure Robert Wyatt had influences, but there's no need to go there because Rock Bottom as an album was separate from other Prog.

Jade Warrior were progressing further as a duo creating a different sound...just as Popol Vuh did. Both bands expanded further with their usage of vocals..choirs...wind instruments..exotic instruments and no one in particular was on a mission to sound like Gentle Giant. Jade Warrior had similarities to a Jethro Tull style in their early years..which they departed from that for many years to invent a new style that ended up being influential to many artists.

In the late 70s Roger Glover released the album ELEMENTS which featured choir type singing, dark electronics, and Jazz Rock instrumental coming across like PASSPORT..but with Simon Phillips on drums. This particular album contained composition that was very original and unique for its time.

Eventually the popular idea was to force music. To make it contrived or to outright copy someone else . Definitely not adding their style to your own vocabulary but outright copying...or cheating the music. If most music had been inspired then the music would have been honest. The art form itself follows many different paths. Your diversity reveals itself from one album to the next. Then you end up releasing a lot of creative music...but if you force the music which means it is uninspired...then it's a phony situation. Some people will like it anyway...but there's always the possibility of your music not being sincere or from the heart. You have to wait until the music inspires you. That's how a great album is made...however a lot of artists were under pressure to do the opposite.

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mickcoxinha View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickcoxinha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2024 at 13:55
In that notion, I would say that prog had died already in 1979. There was hardly anyone doing anything "new" by 1975, just repeating what has already been tried, padded for commercial purposes.

Of course, there is always some obscure band which released an obscure album no one has heard about, but that didn't mean anything for the genre. But new ways of making music that shaped or branched the genre, zero.

That doesn't mean they were not making great music, just that the bands were reproducing the styles created before or moving to something less daring and more commercial.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DarksideofAbel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2024 at 15:13
uffff!!! the topic is still active!!!!! hey!!!! 
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