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Why aren't The Flaming Lips on prog archives?
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bartymj View Drop Down
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Points: 261 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bartymj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2024 at 01:37
Well, this is hilarious. I suggested The Flaming Lips I think in about 2021, off the back of their latest couple of albums being fairly progressive (2019-2020).

I was immediately told no, and the thread closed, on the basis that they had already been reviewed many years prior, i.e. before these albums were released.

Nice to see on a different day the random pot luck of an admin works in our favour ;-)
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Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

The Flaming Lips now have the requisite 3 yes votes from the admins so will be added to the database under Prog Related.


What a lovely surprise, Ian. I'll help with their discography.
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Awesome!

Re Krautrock: I mean that whether the bands that are influenced by Krautrock are on the progressive rock (or progressive pop) spectrum or not, I mean that when one sees it as a label for non-German bands, it usually refers to an influence of music that is considered both Krautrock and Progressive Rock by PA category standards. For PA purposes, I do consider Can Krautrock even if it does not fit a traditional idea of Prog. I tend to judge music for PA by the category parameters, the definitions, and what is already included. Whether I personally consider, say, Kraftwerk or Neu! to be "true prog" is not even of interest to me.

Krautrock represented by bands like Can, Neu!, Harmonia, Cluster, Kraftwerk etc. has indeed influenced much indie and post-punk. And for me a lot of that music would fall under my greater prog umbrella, which includes related (but I often regret using the prog term because that itself can be a can of worms and is such a nebulous label and amorphous label commonly, and related could include anything depending on how close or distant the relation, in a sense). It is very subjective and a lot of it depends on the associations that the individual makes.
Different people commonly have different parameters and expectations for genres, and that's fine by me.

Edited by Logan - January 03 2024 at 18:44
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Yeaaaah!!! :) What a great start to 2024! 'Do you realize' how happy you've made me? ;)
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Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

The Flaming Lips now have the requisite 3 yes votes from the admins so will be added to the database under Prog Related.

ClapClapClap

Well that solves that debate.

Case closed and welcome to the Lips!!!




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The Flaming Lips now have the requisite 3 yes votes from the admins so will be added to the database under Prog Related.
Ian

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Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

I may be missing context, but the quoting plus code appears a little muddled, but just a point, while what is deemed Krautrock from Germany may not be considered Prog, when its listed as an element in terms of style/genre and/or influence for (thinking particularly about ones not in Germany), I don't know of cases where that does not refer to the kinds of music we consider Krautrock at PA. Bands like Can, Neu!, Harmonia, Cluster, Kraftwerk, Faust....

Non-German bands that often get the Kraut label (either partially or primarily) but aren't progressive include Portishead, Stereolab, The Oscillation, The Dwarfs of East Agouza, Gnod, Föllakzoid, Nisennenmondai, Gnoomes, Eternal Tapestry, Soccer96, Cave, 10 000 Russos, Death In Vegas, Lüger, 退格 Backspace, Jacco Gardner, Zombie Zombie, K-X-P, Les Big Byrd, Turzi, LNZNDRF, Moon Relay, Pharaoh Overlord, Dvanov, Kungens män, Karstof, Veik, Hyperculte, Flowers Must Die, Flaurel, Sei Still, Brokenchord etc.

I could go on with hundreds of more artists. Why are these artists NOT progressive? Because they utilize basic electronic dance music, punk, pop and other non-prog genres such as country as the main musical flavor and then they embellish it with secondary sound effects that are inspired by 70s German Krautrock. I could add hundreds of post-punk bands from the 70s on that alone simply added kraut aspects to punk and called it post-punk. It has been long established on this site that post-punk that simply adds kraut ingredients isn't progressive enough to be on this site. The music itself that forms the basis HAS to be progressive as in the case of Cardiacs.

In fact i know very few outside of this site who would even consider Can, Neu! or Faust to be prog. They are more often thought of as experimental rock. Progressive Kraut would be Amon Duul II, Kraan, Popol Vuh, Between etc. But because they were an essential part of the original scene i'm OK with them here but i don't extend that sentiment to newer bands.

As for an album with the primary tags of neo-psychedelia, experimental rock, experimental, post-rock and secondary tags being krautrock, ambient, noise rock, jam band, spoken word, noise, drone, post-rock, electronic, space rock revival, psychedelic rock, not only does that scream that I should listen to the album based on my interests, but that it might well be considerable for Prog Archives addition.

Definitely worth investigating but it's a case by case basis. I tend to reject bands that are primarily pop or monotonous droning with absolutely nothing else going on. The category wasn't designed to be comprehensive. It was designed to highlight the 70s German scene and extremely worthy candidates that followed.

We have two yes votes for the Flaming Lips in Prog Related now, by the way.

That's where i see them fitting in best here but crossover would work for me too.
If this was a paid gig i'd certainly check out the six hour EP that everyone loves so much.

Reactions to The Flaming Lips have been kind of weird and I think quite ignorant since I have seen at the time of Embryonic being released that The Flaming Lips has "nothing" to do with Prog. Nothing? Really? No relations whatsoever?

That's actually my favorite album by the F.L. It definitely has minor prog creds but it is still based in a neo-psychedelia / noise pop song structure.

Neo-psychedelia is applied to tons of pop bands with psychedelic overtones such as Ween, Animal Collective, Spiritualized, XTC, Panda Bear, Tame Impala, Beach House, MGMT, of Montreal, Beck, Deerhunter, Mazzy Star etc. The term alone says nothing about the main musical ingredients but rather the frosting that is applied to an already baked cake.

Many of these bands i love the hell outa but do i want them to be on PA? Hell no!

Bands like Mercury Rev who are here actually have prog elements including post-rock. And yes i like M.R. too!

There is a murky middle ground where pop slowly cedes into prog. Where any particular person draws the line is subjective.

There are many bands that fall into this arena. The Grateful Dead has been mentioned many times. I vote we are a bit conservative in the PSIKE world and limit newer candidates to either obvious prog or clear and irrefutable connections to the farthest out trips of the original 70s German scene.

PS Mercury Rev is cool.
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It's all getting a bit unnecessarily heated so I have an idea. How about they just get added to the database :) There is clearly A LOT of support for them being here. Crossover, related or whatever label is most appropriate. 
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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Why is it all about YOU?
I don't think anything is about me, except my own opinions. 
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Believe it or not, everyone is not aware of RYM.
You brought RYM into this discussion. I didn't
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

I heard you loud and clear and i disagree with you.
But you can't disagree if you don't know what you are discussing. You're opinion is invalid.
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Do You Realize The Flaming Lips have been suggested for inclusion here more than any other band? Wink


Interesting, I would think someone like Funkadelic would be suggested more..
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I may be missing context, but the quoting plus code appears a little muddled, but just a point, while what is deemed Krautrock from Germany may not be considered Prog, when its listed as an element in terms of style/genre and/or influence for (thinking particularly about ones not in Germany), I don't know of cases where that does not refer to the kinds of music we consider Krautrock at PA. Bands like Can, Neu!, Harmonia, Cluster, Kraftwerk, Faust....

As for an album with the primary tags of neo-psychedelia, experimental rock, experimental, post-rock and secondary tags being krautrock, ambient, noise rock, jam band, spoken word, noise, drone, post-rock, electronic, space rock revival, psychedelic rock, not only does that scream that I should listen to the album based on my interests, but that it might well be considerable for Prog Archives addition.

We have two yes votes for the Flaming Lips in Prog Related now, by the way.

Reactions to The Flaming Lips have been kind of weird and I think quite ignorant since I have seen at the time of Embryonic being released that The Flaming Lips has "nothing" to do with Prog. Nothing? Really? No relations whatsoever?

PS Mercury Rev is cool.
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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

^ I only discuss a band at a time and never claimed that any genre or category should be «all inclusive». That would be weird. Just as weird as some of the takes you have on Krautrock, Postrock and some of the bands that are already represented here - in those sub genres.

Why is it all about YOU? I'm simply citing the site's policy in determining evaluation on these genres. If post-rock wants to evaluate a six hour EP then let them go for it. I'm a volunteer on four teams and i'm NOT GOING TO LISTEN TO A SIX HOUR EP FOR AN EVULUATION!!!!

-There's similar genre-labeling on RYM in regards in regards to many bands/artists that are also on PA - and which I think have a natural place here. There was no need to copy and paste those tags, as I've already seen them. 

Once again, why do you think i posted those for YOU? I posted them so everyone else on who is reading this can have another perspective. Believe it or not, everyone is not aware of RYM. Believe it or not others are reading this and i'm explaining it for them.

As long as you don't listen I'm not interested in your uninformed opinion. Obviously.

You have the propensity of equating NOT AGREEING with NOT LISTENING. I heard you loud and clear and i disagree with you.

And for the record I AM NOT INTERESTED IN YOUR COMMENTARY, OPINIONS OR ANYTHING REALLY.

So if you're not interested in my opinion then stop responding to my comments and you won't have to read them otherwise keep posting and i'll keep responding. 

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^ I only discuss a band at a time and never claimed that any genre or category should be «all inclusive». That would be weird. Just as weird as some of the takes you have on Krautrock, Postrock and some of the bands that are already represented here - in those sub genres.

-There's similar genre-labeling on RYM in regards in regards to many bands/artists that are also on PA - and which I think have a natural place here. There was no need to copy and paste those tags, as I've already seen them. As long as you don't listen I'm not interested in your uninformed opinion. Obviously.
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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

^ It's not one EP, but 30 hours of music! I've listened to the Strobo Trip EP's 6 Hour Song / I Found a Star on the Ground in full (but not the full 24 hour long). Have you? That's about eight-nine albums (in length) material in one (out of the two) release, and my favorite six hours of music I've heard by the band. 360 minutes of fully fledged, brainmelting Psych/Spacerock (which we label Krautrock if it's from Germany) which alone more than qualifies. Your personal take on a lot of Krautrock (and other genres) as not prog or whatever - is too subjective or just non-representative and shouldn't be taken into consideration imo.


Since i vote on the PSIKE team my opinion matters here. Sorry i'm not listening to a 24 hour long EP.
I know. And sometimes I think it's unfortunate. 

-I asked if you had listened to the 6 hour long track. You can listen to as little as you like, but you're not entitled to an opinion to what you haven't listened to.

Nope and i won't be. But i'm certainly aware of it.

According to RYM with a current number of 480 ratings by users STROBO TRIP's primary tags are neo-psychedelia, experimental rock, experimental, post-rock

Secondary tags are krautrock, ambient, noise rock, jam band, spoken word, noise, drone, post-rock, electronic, space rock revival, psychedelic rock

Out of all that NOTHING sounds progressive to me. I don't even find all post-rock progressive and personally never would've ever added it to a progressive rock website but that's another matter.

So just from a quick inference of the users who usually get it right when it reaches a few hundred votes on RYM, this one small example may technically qualify for inclusion but considering krautrock is only a secondary consideration at best, it's not enough for me.

Let me say this one more time, certain categories on PA are not meant to be all inclusive. This includes Jazz-fusion and many styles on PSIKE. Considering this sole EP is very much an anomaly in the Lips' greater canon, it's not enough IMHO to qualify them for anything.

I stick to my stance that crossover at best as prog but prog related would be great too.

After all Judas Priest had one prog album but it wasn't quite prog enough to include a rather straight forward heavy metal band. This is why we have teams to determine these borderline cases.

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Edited by siLLy puPPy - January 03 2024 at 09:48

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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

^ It's not one EP, but 30 hours of music! I've listened to the Strobo Trip EP's 6 Hour Song / I Found a Star on the Ground in full (but not the full 24 hour long). Have you? That's about eight-nine albums (in length) material in one (out of the two) release, and my favorite six hours of music I've heard by the band. 360 minutes of fully fledged, brainmelting Psych/Spacerock (which we label Krautrock if it's from Germany) which alone more than qualifies. Your personal take on a lot of Krautrock (and other genres) as not prog or whatever - is too subjective or just non-representative and shouldn't be taken into consideration imo.


Since i vote on the PSIKE team my opinion matters here. Sorry i'm not listening to a 24 hour long EP.
I know. And sometimes I think it's unfortunate. 

-I asked if you had listened to the 6 hour long track. You can listen to as little as you like, but you're not entitled to an opinion to what you haven't listened to.
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Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

^ I voted yes for The Flaming Lips in Prog Related last November, and am glad to see Electric Würms in, which bolsters the case. I hope it goes well, and I can probably help (was thinking I might end up adding it before).

I'd vote for The Flaming Lips under Prog Related too, on the grounds that the closely-related band Mercury Rev are already here under Prog Related - not that my vote counts for anything here. Tongue

Do You Realize The Flaming Lips have been suggested for inclusion here more than any other band? Wink
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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

^ It's not one EP, but 30 hours of music! I've listened to the Strobo Trip EP's 6 Hour Song / I Found a Star on the Ground in full (but not the full 24 hour long). Have you? That's about eight-nine albums (in length) material in one (out of the two) release, and my favorite six hours of music I've heard by the band. 360 minutes of fully fledged, brainmelting Psych/Spacerock (which we label Krautrock if it's from Germany) which alone more than qualifies. Your personal take on a lot of Krautrock (and other genres) as not prog or whatever - is too subjective or just non-representative and shouldn't be taken into consideration imo.


Since i vote on the PSIKE team my opinion matters here. Sorry i'm not listening to a 24 hour long EP. I still haven't even heard their album Zareeka because i've never owned 4 CD players at once! I do own and have heard every single studio full-length album and i'm quite familiar with the Flaming Lips so i speak from years of experience not just a casual listen to an album or two. Let me repeat, I OWN EVERY FRIGGIN ALBUM (not EPs though.) Keep in mind some of our genres aren't meant to be all comprehensive. Here's a thought for you - NOT ALL KRAUTROCK IS PROGRESSIVE. We reject Kraut bands all the time if they aren't progressive Krautrock. If they end up on the PSIKE team i'll vote to move to Crossover. Simple as that. Like it or not.



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Saperlipopette! View Drop Down
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Embryonic and The Terror are pure prog to me. The rest is power pop.

People write the strangest things here. What on earth does the rest of The Flaming Lips discography have in common with Cheap Trick, Big Star and The Rasberries?
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Embryonic and The Terror are pure prog to me. The rest is power pop.
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Points: 11621 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 03 2024 at 00:35
^ It's not one EP, but 30 hours of music! I've listened to the Strobo Trip EP's 6 Hour Song / I Found a Star on the Ground in full (but not the full 24 hour long). Have you? That's about eight-nine albums (in length) material in one (out of the two) release, and my favorite six hours of music I've heard by the band. 360 minutes of fully fledged, brainmelting Psych/Spacerock (which we label Krautrock if it's from Germany) which alone more than qualifies. Your personal take on a lot of Krautrock (and other genres) as not prog or whatever - is too subjective or just non-representative and shouldn't be taken into consideration imo.
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