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Atavachron View Drop Down
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    Posted: May 02 2022 at 20:31
Maybe the most significant political issue in the U.S. for the past forty years, it's possible the Supreme Court may return the rights around controlling abortion to the individual States and prevent the Federal government from protecting women nationally, according to a leaked document.

As appalling as this is, will this give the Democrats a much-needed boost this year and in 2024 ?   Or will this provide political capital for Republicans ?  

Most importantly, how do you feel about an adult woman's right to decide what to do with her body ?





Edited by Atavachron - May 02 2022 at 20:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Man With Hat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2022 at 20:50
It's too late. Dems blew it by not wanting to vote for Hillary. The court is lost for at least one generation and whatever the dems want to do will be swallowed by that conservative force.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2022 at 00:40
The biggest problem I see is that people assume pro-life and pro-choice need to be mutually exclusive.

It is entirely possible to be pro-life when it comes to one’s one body, but recognise that other people get to make their own choice when it comes to their’s.

Every woman should be able to choose for herself whether or not an abortion is right for her.

What’s worse, is that it is generally not even woman who make the decisions about whether a woman can make that decision.

This shouldn’t even be a discussion in this day and age. Why is the idea that a woman can choose what to do with her own body even up for debate?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2022 at 02:10
I don't want to undermine what is a sincere and thought provoking OP but I'll give this 3 pages before it gets locked. The best case scenario would be for me to be proven wrong and we have a civil, erudite and adult debate about a very polarizing topic. Secure the ornaments....




Edited by ExittheLemming - May 03 2022 at 02:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2022 at 02:48
I'll repeat what I wrote in the last thread about this topic and had Raffaella ROTFLHAO

Long Live Abortion and Long Live Euthanasia.Big smile

It's your body/life and no-one can dictate what you do with it. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mathman0806 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2022 at 04:18
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

The biggest problem I see is that people assume pro-life and pro-choice need to be mutually exclusive.

I disagree that it's the biggest problem. The problem is whether or not you believe that life begins at conception and that life must be protected by banning abortion. There are some differences when it comes to allowances for rape, incest, and health. But at the core is how one views life and conception.

Quote It is entirely possible to be pro-life when it comes to one’s one body, but recognise that other people get to make their own choice when it comes to their’s.

Sure. But that recognition is being pro choice.

Quote
Every woman should be able to choose for herself whether or not an abortion is right for her.

What’s worse, is that it is generally not even woman who make the decisions about whether a woman can make that decision.

This shouldn’t even be a discussion in this day and age. Why is the idea that a woman can choose what to do with her own body even up for debate?


I agree with you. The debate is there due to the moral/religious belief that life begins at conception and must be protected.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2022 at 04:40
Originally posted by mathman0806 mathman0806 wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

The biggest problem I see is that people assume pro-life and pro-choice need to be mutually exclusive.

I disagree that it's the biggest problem. The problem is whether or not you believe that life begins at conception and that life must be protected by banning abortion. There are some differences when it comes to allowances for rape, incest, and health. But at the core is how one views life and conception.

Quote It is entirely possible to be pro-life when it comes to one’s one body, but recognise that other people get to make their own choice when it comes to their’s.

Sure. But that recognition is being pro choice.

Quote
Every woman should be able to choose for herself whether or not an abortion is right for her.

What’s worse, is that it is generally not even woman who make the decisions about whether a woman can make that decision.

This shouldn’t even be a discussion in this day and age. Why is the idea that a woman can choose what to do with her own body even up for debate?


I agree with you. The debate is there due to the moral/religious belief that life begins at conception and must be protected.

We will have to agree to disagree then, as there are actually a surprising number (at least, it was surprising to me) pro lifers who recognise the choice of others. So while you might say that that recognition means they are pro choice, I know they would argue the hell out of that. Because these are people who do believe life begins at conception, and therefore that any abortion is a form of murder - but they also recognise that this is a belief that comes from their faith, and that not everyone shares that faith, and therefore those beliefs.

As with most things, those who makes biggest noise on any issue tend to be the extremists. When it comes to any religion, there are more Christians/Muslims/Jews/whatever out there who don’t expect others to share their faith, than do. There are plenty of Christians who believe that life begins at conception, so would never think about abortion themselves, but still understand that women should have autonomy over their own body.

So the core issue is not whether life begins at conception, but how much any one person wishes to force their views on that on others. There is a vocal minority that conflates pro-life with anti-abortion, but a far wider cross-section of society who are pro-life (and would label themselves such), but understand that every woman needs to come to their own decision when it comes to what to do about that life.

To say that all pro-lifers are anti-choice is simply not true. I admit I once assumed that was the case, but I have learnt that my assumption was wrong.

Not all vegans are as rabid and reactionary as the vocal minority. My ex-boss once told me he hated vegans because they are all so self-righteous. I had to point out to him that that is not at all the case, and that he probably had at least one friend that was vegan, and he either just didn’t know, or simply hadn’t noticed - because not all vegans were their hearts on their sleeves. He didn’t believe me at all, but the next time I saw him, he sheepishly admitted he had been talking about our argument with his friends, and one of them was, indeed, a vegan. I have several friends who are vegan, and none shout about it. You’d never know if you were speaking to them, or if you viewed their FB page. They don’t feel the need to advertise the fact. It is merely something they believe, and they are well aware a lot of people do not share their views, so don’t try to push them. The same can be said for many pro-lifers.

I found out I had a pro-life friend (she is not a Christian, either - so we shouldn’t assume that all pro-life beliefs come from religion) only after my wife became pregnant after I was already booked in for a vasectomy, because we had decided we did not want any more children. Because we had already decided that, abortion was on the table - but ultimately neither I nor my wife were comfortable with that. (And even if I were, I still would have left the final decision to my wife, because it is her body. While I appreciated her asking my opinion, I did feel that my opinion wasn’t really valid.)

You then get to the Pythonesque “Every Sperm is Sacred” dilemma. Because for some people, getting a vasectomy is just as life-denying as an abortion. In my opinion, that is a crazy attitude to have - but, let’s face it, that is what some people believe.

Strangely, though, while anti-abortion legislation often seems to be put on the table, anti-vasectomy legislation is not. Could it be, again, that it is because it is mostly men who attempt to foist this sort of legislation. They are fine to make decisions about the bodies of the opposite sec, but not their own? I am being somewhat facetious, of course, but I’m sure you can see where I’m coming from.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2022 at 05:10
I see America shifting back into a pre 1950s morality standard, and this is because Democrats vote for a personality and not for a party. It seems above some people that Supreme Court justices are chosen for life terms and can't be voted out like the 4 year term political hacks. I really have no sympathy for these democrats crying now. They've made their bed and now have to lie uncomfortably in it, for the next 50 years or so.

Edit: My own personal take is that abortion, especially in later stages, is disgusting and the flippant way others talk of it is equally disgusting. But it is a central platform of my political party, so I uneasily go along with it.


Edited by SteveG - May 03 2022 at 05:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2022 at 05:16
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I see America shifting back into a pre 1950s morality standard, and this is because Democrats vote for a personality and not for a party. It seems above some people that Supreme Court justices are chosen for life terms and can't be voted out like the 4 year term political hacks. I really have no sympathy for these democrats crying now. They've made their bed and now have to lie uncomfortably in it, for the next 50 years or so.

as usual, you're wrong in your facts.
 
The last supreme court judge (an extremist) named was purposely done by Drump just before the end of his mandate (precisely to do what is happening now, because the balance was tilted the other way in doing so), not by the Dems.

The nomination decision from the previous administration cannot be revoked by the actual Prez or the Dems. 




Edited by Sean Trane - May 03 2022 at 05:20
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2022 at 05:19
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I see America shifting back into a pre 1950s morality standard, and this is because Democrats vote for a personality and not for a party. It seems above some people that Supreme Court justices are chosen for life terms and can't be voted out like the 4 year term political hacks. I really have no sympathy for these democrats crying now. They've made their bed and now have to lie uncomfortably in it, for the next 50 years or so.

as usual, you're wrong in your facts.
 
The last supreme court judge (an extremist) named was purposely done by Drump just before the end of his mandate, not by the Dems.


It's getting to a point that it's not worth discussing anything with you, so let's try not to. You've misunderstood my post, as usual. Try reading it again and then disappear.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2022 at 05:27
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I see America shifting back into a pre 1950s morality standard, and this is because Democrats vote for a personality and not for a party. It seems above some people that Supreme Court justices are chosen for life terms and can't be voted out like the 4 year term political hacks. I really have no sympathy for these democrats crying now. They've made their bed and now have to lie uncomfortably in it, for the next 50 years or so.

as usual, you're wrong in your facts.
 
The last supreme court judge (an extremist) named was purposely done by Drump just before the end of his mandate, not by the Dems.

The nomination decision from the previous administration cannot be revoked by the actual Prez or the Dems. 

It's getting to a point that it's not worth discussing anything with you, so let's try not to. You've misunderstood my post, as usual. Try reading it again and then disappear.

Your post clearly reads like it's the Dems who are responsible for this situation, when it is the Reps who are.

You were allowed back in PA (via yours truly) from a ban on the promise you wouldn't participate in political threads, thing you immediately reneged.








Edited by Sean Trane - May 03 2022 at 05:27
let's just stay above the moral melee
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote omphaloskepsis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2022 at 05:45
Should gin support for democrats heading into 2022 midterms.  Biden will revisit student loan forgiveness in time for 2022 midterms.  The abortion vote distracts from Russia/Ukraine...a war that Russia is winning. Time to change the channel on America's brain. 

I figure Roberts sits this one out. That said, if Roe/Wade is overturned...Abortion is NOT outlawed. The abortion issue becomes a state decision again.


Edited by omphaloskepsis - May 03 2022 at 05:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2022 at 06:05
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Should gin support for democrats heading into 2022 midterms.  Biden will revisit student loan forgiveness in time for 2022 midterms.  The abortion vote distracts from Russia/Ukraine...a war that Russia is winning. Time to change the channel on America's brain. 

I figure Roberts sits this one out. That said, if Roe/Wade is overturned...Abortion is NOT outlawed. The abortion issue becomes a state decision again.

I wouldn't bet on that... I'd actually say the Russians are losing the war0.... on psychological term, at least. 

In the next months, you'll see Ukraine with western arms gaining back some grounds, - which could send Putin to use extra weaponry that are extra-military (I'm even fearing virus or bacterial weapons). 

The Ukrainians know all the flaws of Russian arms (since they've been using them for decades)
Notably they have killed nearly 600 Russian tanks by aiming at the bullets cage, and having them explode inside the tank. 



.


Edited by Sean Trane - May 03 2022 at 06:05
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
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prefer lifting our pen
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2022 at 06:50
Hi,

It's hard to think straight on these things.

My biggest comments is how the media has fueled a fire in what would be a conservative/religious base to get something done, which kinda tells you who owns so much of that media anyway! A media that pushes its TV and Media mentality on folks so they won't study the issue and just vote this way or that way without questions!

The harder part is that in America there is such a "laissez faire" attitude about politics in general, specially now that so many folks are so stoned that they don't care! It's all about their weed, and screw politics, and even my neighbor says ... nothing you can do anyway! I saw that coming way back in the 70's when I found the getting stoned in California was just a fad ... it meant ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

The only solution is to see it happen, and then the next election the women's movement takes hold full blast and it ends the fake republican/religious connection in this country. It's weird that in a country that create a thing about religion and government being separated, and yet ... here we are ... screw the constitution and we do whatever we feel like! It's not even about individual rights anymore ... it's all about telling folks ... WE OWN YOU!


Edited by moshkito - May 03 2022 at 06:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote omphaloskepsis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2022 at 06:53
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Should gin support for democrats heading into 2022 midterms.  Biden will revisit student loan forgiveness in time for 2022 midterms.  The abortion vote distracts from Russia/Ukraine...a war that Russia is winning. Time to change the channel on America's brain. 

I figure Roberts sits this one out. That said, if Roe/Wade is overturned...Abortion is NOT outlawed. The abortion issue becomes a state decision again.

I wouldn't bet on that... I'd actually say the Russians are losing the war0.... on psychological term, at least. 

In the next months, you'll see Ukraine with western arms gaining back some grounds, - which could send Putin to use extra weaponry that are extra-military (I'm even fearing virus or bacterial weapons). 

The Ukrainians know all the flaws of Russian arms (since they've been using them for decades)
Notably they have killed nearly 600 Russian tanks by aiming at the bullets cage, and having them explode inside the tank.



Sure, Russia is losing the (War of the Mind).  However, Russia is winning the physical war. 

Sure, Ukraine will be flooded with western arms.  However-
1. Russia doesn't want West Ukraine.  How do you get the weapons from Poland to the East and South fronts?  Russia destroyed the railways.  It will be difficult to transport heavy weapons to the front.  Smaller weapons can be smuggled in civilian vehicles, but Western/Central Ukraine is flat and wide open. Any large scale convoy of weapons can be picked off by Russian Air superiority. Russia controls the skies. 

2. It takes a while to train Ukrainian soldiers on Western weapon systems. Many of the conscripted Ukraine soldiers have been soldiers for less than a month. Without West to East supply lines, Ukraine will run low on fuel, soldiers, and weapons. 

3. Many of the areas that Russia is fighting in are pro Russian. Besides the two runaway Donbas republics, Kherson will be voting to leave Ukraine.  It appears that the Zaporizhzhia Oblast is following suit.   

The only way Russia could lose is if America/NATO put boots on ground and go full scale war.  Even then Russia might not lose. 

That said, I hear this is the first time Supreme Court decision has leaked. (I don't know if it's the first time.) What do you think of the timing of the decision?  Why now?

.


Edited by omphaloskepsis - May 03 2022 at 06:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Argo2112 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2022 at 07:34
One aspect of this that no one really talks about & is absolutely terrifying is the provision put in many of these new state laws that allow individuals  to sue any one who may have " aided some one who received an abortion"
 What does that mean? Well no one really seems to know. Can you sue the Uber driver that took the woman to a clinic? How about the person who bought a woman a turkey sandwich after the procedure? I know these sound like extreme examples but the point is no one knows where it would start & where it would end. So now states that are allowing these law suites have just recruited thousands of vigilante Christian jihadists to target women having abortions & anyone who may have assisted them. Like I said , absolutely terrifying. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote King of Loss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2022 at 07:45
#keepabortionlegal

Enough said.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrufordFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2022 at 07:47
The pendulum between egalitarian humanitariansim and depraved hedonism is swinging back toward the latter. How far will it go?

I'm tired of the game. It's just not entertaining anymore. I just wish global warming would accelerate and extinguish this sad version of humans. More, I'm worried that we've infected our Mother with more toxic poisons than she can recover from--that runaway global warming may destroy all conditions for sustainable biological life! Will Earth become the next Mars? Where will we take our addictions for our next lifetimes?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stonemonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2022 at 08:22
and abolish the death penalty
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2022 at 08:32
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Should gin support for democrats heading into 2022 midterms.  Biden will revisit student loan forgiveness in time for 2022 midterms.  The abortion vote distracts from Russia/Ukraine...a war that Russia is winning. Time to change the channel on America's brain. 

I figure Roberts sits this one out. That said, if Roe/Wade is overturned...Abortion is NOT outlawed. The abortion issue becomes a state decision again.

I wouldn't bet on that... 


That said, I hear this is the first time Supreme Court decision has leaked. (I don't know if it's the first time.) What do you think of the timing of the decision?  Why now?

Interesting answers about Ukraine, but let's not hijack this thread. (let's discuss this in dedicated thread.

Why now? the whole legal/justice process takes time and is theoretically independent of global news. It just follows its course no matter what the WH's agenda is going to be.  As pointed to Steve, there is nothing Biden or the Dems can do to stop it... And the Reps couldn't either, should they ever they want to. 

They  (Dems) can maybe delay it long enough until another judge comes to die and needs to be replaced. But even then, from what I understand, the nomination process will take some time and even if the death would happen at the end of this year, I'm not sure Biden & Dems will have time to nominate their own  candidate in time of the current presidential or congress mandate. 

Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

The pendulum between egalitarian humanitariansim and depraved hedonism is swinging back toward the latter. How far will it go?

I'm tired of the game. It's just not entertaining anymore. I just wish global warming would accelerate and extinguish this sad version of humans. More, I'm worried that we've infected our Mother with more toxic poisons than she can recover from--that runaway global warming may destroy all conditions for sustainable biological life! Will Earth become the next Mars? Where will we take our addictions for our next lifetimes?


Not sure how to read that. Confused

Yup, I'm not even sure it's worth even trying to save this planet, given that new generations will simply not be better than us.... Unless we have 10G St Greta (Thundberg) refusing to take the plane to go on holidays or let their smartphone die out without being replaced. The young generations are so keen on new technologies that they've got no idea on how to order a Big Mac menu on anything else than a gigantic touch-screen. 



Yes, Mars could become a solution (if done right - that means kick out private firms from space), but there are already people who've bought property on the Red Planet and will claim ownership. It's a lost cause, if you ask me.





Edited by Sean Trane - May 03 2022 at 08:40
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
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as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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