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David_D View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2021 at 08:48
It's fine to point at the distinction you make, Shadowyzard.
Edit:
And it's of course interesting where goes the borderline between the objective and subjective things.


Edited by David_D - November 07 2021 at 09:04
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2021 at 09:02
Originally posted by Shadowyzard Shadowyzard wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

There is no objective view of music, it's all subjective. My personal tastes have always been niche and have gotten more so over time. People on PA and PE have tastes that are more in line with mine so I value those opinions higher. There is a small group of individuals who tastes are a lot closer to mine the I generally check out their suggestions a lot. Other than that I explore and buy, or not.


There absolutely are objective views on music. I deem no one's tastes  superior or inferior to mine, and it is totally subjective. Whilst, if someone says that Cradle of Filth is not a melodic band (it happened here), s/he is definitely and objectively wrong. If someone says Rick Astley is not popular (again happened here), s/he is outright wrong. If someone says that Guns N' Roses' bass guitar player is a grand virtuoso (it happened on another forum), s/he is wrong. And everytime you point this/these out, people play the "subjectivity card". I find this ridiculous.

Someone can even say that PF's music is blissful, or even prog music is for idiots. Such takes are subjective, and I respect that. But honestly, I find this "everything is subjective" trick cheap. Very cheap.



P.S. The part above is a broad and a general take. So, you don't have to see this as directed to you or any other particular person.




I'm fine with your clarification of my point and I broadly agree with you. Differences between my personal rankings and broader rankings of the general public are pretty meaningless to me. I'm not very interested in analyzing those differences.

Your clarification reals points to the differences between technical definition and the art of the thing.

Edited by Nogbad_The_Bad - November 07 2021 at 09:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2021 at 09:07
^ I forgot to edit my first sentence, which makes it sound like I'm directly opposing your quoted post. Sorry & thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2021 at 09:20
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

[Differences between my personal rankings and broader rankings of the general public are pretty meaningless to me. I'm not very interested in analyzing those differences.

Why is that?
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2021 at 09:45
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

[Differences between my personal rankings and broader rankings of the general public are pretty meaningless to me. I'm not very interested in analyzing those differences.

Why is that?

I think, people may often be more influenced by the broader opinion than they in fact would like, and maybe analyzing those differences can for instance be some help to prevent it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2021 at 09:57
So this isn't a game at all...it's more of a social experiment.
How many points do I get for that revelation?
Thank you for supporting independently produced music
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2021 at 09:57
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

[Differences between my personal rankings and broader rankings of the general public are pretty meaningless to me. I'm not very interested in analyzing those differences.


Why is that?


Because I've learnt over a long period of time I don't enjoy Beyonce, Springsteen, Kanye, etc etc. Is this hard to understand? You seem to like answering with questions all the time. Frankly it's a bit boring.

Why is that?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2021 at 11:11
I find it funny that I ended up on top of your points ranking. I don't think that this is because my taste is strongly in line with the general taste reflected in the top 30. Rather I think I interpreted the cutoff point between what to list and what not to list more generously than others. I basically "won" because I listed 15 and others listed fewer, however it may well be that some others just didn't list some albums that they like at least as much as I like my no. 15. Generally I think of my taste as somewhat marginal to PA, but at least "marginal inside", 900+ points or not.

What I can say is that I appreciate many of the classics even though hardly any of them will appear in my personal top album list. I'm for sure not a Yes or Genesis fan, but some of their stuff is just brutally good (Marillion on the other hand are totally lost on me). Maybe you'd get very different results if you compared people's personal top 50 with the top 20, 30, 50 whatever of PA or RYM. There wouldn't be much overlap in my case. But then I don't care much. It always makes sense to listen to stuff that is popular among other people with taste, and so far I'm fine exploring albums in top lists that I don't know, but the lists are not authoritative. I won't get some of that stuff, and have my own favourites, and so be it.

Another thing is that although I'm a "progger" in that I prefer much prog to many non-prog things rated highly on RYM, I may be closer to the RYM take on prog than to the majority here, so my choices will probably match an RYM or mixed list better than PA's top prog list.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2021 at 12:25
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

[Differences between my personal rankings and broader rankings of the general public are pretty meaningless to me. I'm not very interested in analyzing those differences.

Why is that?

I think, people may often be more influenced by the broader opinion than they in fact would like, and maybe analyzing those differences can for instance be some help to prevent it.

Some people, perhaps. But I’m fairly certain people like Ian and I are not at all influenced by broad opinion, so much as specific.

I think perhaps that most people might be influenced by broader opinion when they are younger and have been exposed to less, and/or are not sure where to explore. But it doesn’t take long for most people to find the path (or paths) they are interested, and the opinions of others cease to matter so much - or at all.

In fact, the above experience may now be obsolete, as this was how music was explored in the olden days, before streaming and YT made it easy to explore music, and tumble down rabbit hole after rabbit hole. The youth of today are not bound by genre or era or media as previous generations were, and it shows in what they listen to. A lot of younger people don’t even know the different genres they are listening to. It’s just music to them.

I honestly think that the broader opinions you appear to be putting too much faith in will continue to become increasingly irrelevant for the majority of music listeners. It’s been irrelevant to me for decades now, and I can see it is already irrelevant to the teens of today in a way it never was to me at their age.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2021 at 12:36
The difficulty I have in creating such a list is deciding how high to raise the bar. If I have the bar set very high, then there will be only three albums:
 
01. 38 Van Der Graaf Generator  (UK) :   Pawn Hearts  (1971)   12,49 (1908 b.)
02. 48 Yes  (UK) :   Close To The Edge  (1972)   12,87 (5157 b.)
03. 44 Jethro Tull  (UK) :   Thick As A Brick  (1972)   12,75 (3399 b.)
 
 
Lowering the bar a little bit will admit a few more very good albums:
 
04. 36 Camel  (UK) :   Mirage  (1974)   12,35 (1927 b.)
05. 50 King Crimson  (UK) :   In The Court Of The Crimson King  (1969)   13,02 (7891 b.)
06. 50 Radiohead  (UK) :   Kid A  (2000)   12,51 (12122 b.)
07. 42 Rush  (CAN) :   Moving Pictures  (1981)   12,30 (3864 b.)
08. 46 Frank Zappa  (US) :   Hot Rats  (1969)   12,69 (3960 b.)
09. 48 Genesis  (UK) :   Selling England By The Pound  (1973)   12,74 (4347 b.)
 

No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2021 at 13:31
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:


Some people, perhaps. But I’m fairly certain people like Ian and I are not at all influenced by broad opinion, so much as specific.
 

In my view it's not interesting whether folks like us are "influenced by broad opinion", but rather whether there is a common core of quality reflected in broad opinion with which many of us agree (and which then would smell of some kind of "objectivity"). Which of course, in general terms, people have been interested in and done research about for ages, with not much of a consensus found.


Edited by Lewian - November 07 2021 at 13:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2021 at 13:33
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

 You seem to like answering with questions all the time.

Well, all I can say here is that it certainly not is my own impression, on the contrary, I could be more investigating in stead of telling my own opinion.
Edit:
But okay, it depends on the situation and what I think of my own knowledge compared to the person(s) I talk with.


Edited by David_D - November 07 2021 at 14:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2021 at 13:40
ZZZZZZZ

Huh..What...Did something happen?
Is the game on again. (Yawn).
Ok, well, just poke me when it starts.
Thank you for supporting independently produced music
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2021 at 13:54
Hi, I prophesy disaster, this is very late to join in the rating, but I'll include you, anyway.
Considering the way you describe your rating, I think it's proper to count with the first 7 of your chosen albums.
You can see your score in the result list at the top of page 6 in a little while,
and you're very welcome to join the discussion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2021 at 01:26
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

the broader opinions you appear to be putting too much faith in 

What I can tell here is that for different reasons for many years I've had very much focus on top lists and high rated classics (from really many countries, though), and on one hand it has been very giving for me as it made easier to find albums I like. It has also broaden my musical taste and "raised the level" of it as I could end liking albums which I didn't in the begining, say Close to the Edge, Nursery Cryme, Godbluff and Lark's Tongue in Aspic. I've become very well informed about the most appreciated albums and bands in that way, too.
On the other hand, it has become quite an obsession which makes it difficult for me to appreciate obscure albums and find them worthy being a part of my collection - it still happens though, say Universe (UK) - Universe (1971) Smile, and I must add here that I want to keep my collection very small.
Edit:
On the plus side, I've seen as well that even I' didn't like a high rated classic in the beginning, after I become fond of it, I mostly never did get tired of it, on the contrary, through the years, often appreciated it more and more.


Edited by David_D - November 08 2021 at 02:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2021 at 01:59
Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

..it's more of a social experiment.

I hoped so. Star


Edited by David_D - November 08 2021 at 02:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote essexboyinwales Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2021 at 04:23
I have no idea if I'm too late to this, and very little idea of what's going on here, but for what it's worth:

40 Dream Theater  (US) :   Images And Words  (1992)   11,82 (4306 b.)

32 Marillion  (UK) :   Misplaced Childhood  (1985)   12,06 (1849 b.)

48 Genesis  (UK) :   Selling England By The Pound  (1973)   12,74 (4347 b.)

44 Jethro Tull  (UK) :   Thick As A Brick  (1972)   12,75 (3399 b.)

50 Pink Floyd  (UK) :   The Dark Side Of the Moon  (1973)   13,03 (14829 b.)

42 Rush  (CAN) :   Moving Pictures  (1981)   12,30 (3864 b.)


Smile


Edited by essexboyinwales - November 08 2021 at 04:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2021 at 07:23
It's okay, essexboyinwale , you come along here, and you can see your result on the top of page 6.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote essexboyinwales Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2021 at 07:42
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

It's okay, essexboyinwale , you come along here, and you can see your result on the top of page 6.


LOLThumbs Up

What happens next then?  When do I get to vote for IQ?Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2021 at 08:00
Originally posted by essexboyinwales essexboyinwales wrote:

What happens next then? 

If you would like to join the discussion here, the subject is:
David_D wrote:
"Here it goes.
This second part is entirely different from the first one, and requires, I think, much more consideration. It's of course everyone's own choice whether to join it, but I hope you find it as an interesting discussion.
Well, my initial thinking about it is that our chosen albums are an expression of our personal musical taste while the top 30 list can be said to be an expression of general opinion about these albums.
So, I have been thinking about the question whether one can conclude something about own taste in relation to the general opinion, and whether there might be a difference between the persons in the top of our rating result list and those in the lower part (here we could surely use some more persons who chose a small number of albums).
What do you think?"


Edited by David_D - November 08 2021 at 08:00
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