Progarchives.com has always (since 2002) relied on banners ads to cover web hosting fees and all.
Please consider supporting us by giving monthly PayPal donations and help keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.
/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage") |
Rearrange PA top 20 to your personal tastes |
Post Reply 
|
Page <1 56789 10> |
| Author | ||||
Rick1 
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: April 14 2020 Location: Loughborough UK Status: Offline Points: 2925 |
 Post Options
 Thanks(0)
 Quote Reply
 Posted: October 15 2021 at 02:10 |
|||
|
I have read this thread with interest. I think ELP were genuinely innovative and creative but they irk prog fans because only around 50% of their canon was what the purists would consider to be prog - they spanned so many genres. The Works Vol II album offers a good example of the sheer diversity of their music and so they transcended the genre. Not many bands really did that. I love their non-prog stuff as much as Tarkus and the rest. So, let the experts keep Rush in the top 20!
|
||||
 |
||||
|
Grumpyprogfan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 09 2019 Location: Kansas City Status: Offline Points: 12400 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 15 2021 at 05:04 |
|||
|
^Rush was also creative and innovative. Why is it such a big deal that a band you think should be in the top twenty isn't?
|
||||
|
||||
|
Rick1
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 14 2020 Location: Loughborough UK Status: Offline Points: 2925 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 15 2021 at 05:51 |
|||
|
^Rush were 'second wave' or 'second movers'...in other words, progressive templates had been established from around 1968 onwards - Genesis were the same to a certain extent. Rush innovated around the margins in the early 80s once they had overcome the sophisticated heavy rock extended formats.
|
||||
|
||||
|
moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18071 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 15 2021 at 09:06 |
|||
Hi, With all due respect ... I find it sad that all one can say is call "filler" on some parts of the music, when it has been a part of music history for THOUSANDS OF MUCHING YEARS, and not one is saying that Vivaldi or Beethoven was not guilty of it. The "filler" is there for a reason, that many top of the pop listeners can not understand, because it has no lyrics ... and it is often much easier to say that these folks lack the imagination to listen, if they have to have lyrics to tell them what the "filler" is all about. I'm sorry ... but every time I read about "filler" this or that, I just want to throw up ... so all of music has come to this, a bunch of fans considering 90% of all the music that has EVER been made, just a bunch of crap that means nothing. This has to stop. We're destroying progressive music and its monumental passages of music! This is not top ten!!!!
|
||||
|
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
||||
|
||||
|
Sacro_Porgo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 15 2019 Location: Cygnus Status: Offline Points: 2062 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 15 2021 at 11:29 |
|||
I grow very quickly tired of your responses. You always take what I say and spin it some way I didn't mean, or go off on some tangent about how music is being destroyed by people's perspectives of it. Lighten up or lay off. If you'd take a closer look at my post, you'd realize I was making an argument against caring so much about filler this and filler that, which seems to be in line with your perspective. Furthermore, you cropped my post to just the part you wanted to rant about and didn't include the part where I mentioned I actually like most of the songs I had listed as filler. I have plenty more things to say about More Fool Me, Moonchild, We Have Heaven, etc... good and bad! A song can be filler and still be interesting to discuss.
|
||||
|
Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
|
||||
|
||||
|
BaldJean
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: May 28 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 15 2021 at 11:58 |
|||
anyone who calls "Moonchild" "filler" just hasn't understood what the track is about. I wrote a whole post about it once
|
||||
 A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
||||
|
||||
|
Psychedelic Paul
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 16 2019 Location: Nottingham, U.K Status: Offline Points: 43474 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 15 2021 at 12:45 |
|||
C'est La Vie. I wasn't a fan of ELP From the Beginning either, and I still find it hard to get into the pomp and bombast of Trilogy and Brain Salad Surgery, but then I discovered Love Beach and everything changed. In other words, I prefer the softer romantic side of ELP to their harder-edged, pompous prog side, even if it means being sometimes ridiculed for my atypical tastes in music.
 |
||||
|
||||
|
moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18071 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 15 2021 at 14:07 |
|||
Hi, I take a softer stance on this ... things may have been this and that, but everyone said the same thing about Jimi, Janis, Jim and others, and all they were doing is being themselves so hard, and so much, on a stage that it was difficult for many to relate to ... 40 to 50 years later, when so much music is thought to be "great" and it has very little depth of feeling, other than ... just ideas! Jimi, Janis and Jim were so strong, that many folks could not relate to it, even then ... heck, Joe Cocker was laughed off real quick and all of a sudden, people got used to his voice, and he ended up really being very strong. Same for Roger Chapman (Chappo/Family). The one thing I know about college/university is this when it comes to music ... ANYONE that creates a piece of music and call it a suite, or a concerto, or something that is usually meant for music and composers long DEAD, has no chance whatsoever. Someone like Keith coming to his mates ... look, I got a concerto here, how do we do this? And he shows TARKUS ... and they worked it to perfection in the end ... and then one day you listen to Rachel Flowers do this on the piano (and organ at a different time) and she just absolutely displayed what a magnificent piece of music it was ... but in those days, no one was going to pay to hear this within the rock music idiom ... and we are still punishing Keith (and ELP) for this ... he died because no one understood and appreciated his classical abilities and how he had to change them to get somewhere ... something that is gut wrenching to anyone that has any creative juices. You take your baby and you defile it so it satisfies something else. I suppose that Keith was appreciative that it still got made and played, but I imagine that the lack of seeing what a piano concerto (how else would he show it to his mates?) was done, would in later years have him in tears ... I created all this, for a mucking song only, and no one sees anything in it! It will kill your spirit! That said, seeing things like "Love Beach" was almost a finger to a record company, and even fans! They want crap, let them have it! Reminds me of a few composers that when their pieces were introduced they were booed and made fun of, and some of them even lost their commissions and jobs. Only to find out later that their work was excellent, and has stood the test of time ... at least in the last 100 years. How many more died without that pleasure and ability since we have been able to hear the music and eventually have it recorded?
|
||||
|
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
||||
|
||||
|
moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18071 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 15 2021 at 14:18 |
|||
Hi, You are misrepresenting my concerns and thoughts. There is no composer out there that will PURPOSEDLY create a bunch of "filler" for any piece of music ... some of it might be a transition part or portion, but in the end, what some folks here call "filler", is more about their inability to know/understand what some of the material without lyrics is all about. We have forgotten to CLOSE OUR EYES and just listen to the music. And one does not need a "title" to tell the listeners what it is (supposedly) all about. I might write something that is about this and that, and you don't see it, just like you are not seeing it here. I'm standing up for the music, or in a sense, for the composition and the work. It had absolutely nothing to do with your idea that I was thrashing your comments, that obviously were not about "filler", although I sense a certain amount of doubt as to why/what is there in the first place. Let's just say that a lot of the "filler" material is "literal" and not exactly idealistic. The harder part is calling a lot of Tchaikovsky's music "pastoral", and no one has any idea what all those passages are all about and how they connect and go together. This is all I'm fighting against, and is something that has cropped up by rock fans, who detest music that doesn't tell them what it is all about in lyrics. The history of "rock'n'roll" has not been so much about MUSIC, as it has been about LYRICS telling people what this song is all about ... and worse, we believe them all ... and still think that "minor" is sad, and "major" is happy, even though many have shown that to not be true at all ... it's just conditioning!
|
||||
|
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
||||
|
||||
|
Nogbad_The_Bad
Forum & Site Admin Group 
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team Joined: March 16 2007 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 21321 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 15 2021 at 15:04 |
|||
I just treat all Pedro's posts as humorous interludes in the discussion. He'll never change and will continue to spout the same garbage. I actively hunt them out these days for entertainment value. |
||||
|
Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
||||
|
||||
|
Sacro_Porgo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 15 2019 Location: Cygnus Status: Offline Points: 2062 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 15 2021 at 15:46 |
|||
I've read that post before I think. I understand what it's about, but it doesn't really affect me much. For me, it's filler. Make the improv more efficient and I'd probably change my mind, as I do like the "song" portion of it at the start.
|
||||
|
Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
|
||||
|
||||
|
Sacro_Porgo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 15 2019 Location: Cygnus Status: Offline Points: 2062 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 15 2021 at 16:06 |
|||
There you did it again! You cropped my post to just the part you wanted to start monologuing about, in this case the very part where I called you out for cropping my previous post to the part you wanted to rant about! Come on, it's stuff like that that makes me really doubt you're actually looking to have a conversation at all. So your argument is that rock and pop are way too focused on lyrics and not focused enough on music, and that anything anyone calls filler is called so because it lacks lyrics or a strong title to explain it to them. Am I understanding that correctly? I'm probably not, but I'll offer a rebuttal just in case: Nearly every song I listed as filler in my original post has lyrics and a strong title! And on top of that, I would definitely consider myself a rock fan, but I'm also a big fan of instrumental music. I love the instrumentals on Frank Zappa's Hot Rats, for example. Steve Howe and Steve Hackett both have song excellent solo acoustic guitar pieces I'm a fan of. Rush is my second favorite band and they're no strangers to a great instrumental. Being a rock fan does not prevent me from enjoying instrumental music anymore than being a jazz fan (which, to a less obsessive extent, I am as well) does not prevent me from enjoying music with lyrics. You also make the criticism that one can only call something filler if they don't understand it. As I was just saying to BaldJean, I have read a detailed explanation of Moonchild's instrumental poetry before, how it's a journey that symbolizes the lyrics of the first section and expresses them purely through music. It's a really cool interpretation... and it doesn't make me feel very differently about the music. Because on this we agree: it's about the music. And if the music doesn't compel me, that's one of the boxes on my checklist to decide if I would call something filler or not.
|
||||
|
Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
|
||||
|
||||
|
BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 15 2021 at 16:06 |
|||
but that's the point: the improvisation is efficient. you can clearly hear lines from the song lyrics expressed in it. not necessarily in the order they appear; this is dream logic after all. but the last line appears at the end: "waiting for a smile from a sunchild", which is a metaphor for the sunrise. and how does "Moonchild" end? with the notes of a C-major chord. in classical music it is always the C-major chord that is used to depict sunrise
|
||||
|
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
||||
|
||||
|
Nogbad_The_Bad
Forum & Site Admin Group
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team Joined: March 16 2007 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 21321 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 15 2021 at 16:26 |
|||
|
||||
|
Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
||||
|
||||
|
jamesbaldwin
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 25 2015 Location: Milano Status: Offline Points: 6052 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 15 2021 at 17:58 |
|||
|
Now I can rearrange PA Top 30:
PA: 1) Close to the Edge 2) Selling England by the Pound 3) Wish You Were Here 4) Thick as a Brick 5) In The Court of the Crimson King 6) The Dark Side of the Moon 7) Foxtrot 8) Red 9) Animals 10) Godbluff 11) Fragile 12) Pawn Hearts 13) Nursery Crime 14) Larks' Tongues in Aspic 15) Mirage 16) Per un Amico 17) Moving Pictures 18) Monnmadness 19) Relayer 20) Hemispheres 21) Darwin! 22) Io Sono Nato Libero 23) Aqualung 24) Hybris 25) From Silence to Nowhere 26) In A Glass House 28) Hot Rats 29) Kind Of Blue 30) Storia di un Minuto --------- My Top 30: 1) Pawn Hearts 10/10 ------- 2) In The Court of 9,5/10 3) Red 9,5/10 -------- 4) Wish You Were Here 9,25/10 5) Darwin! 9,25/10 6) Storia di un Minuto 9,25/10 ------- 7) Aqualung 9/10 8) Dark Side 9/10 9) Relayer 9/10 10) Godbluff 9/10 11) Hot Rats 9/10 ------- 12) Foxtrot 8,75/10 13) Close to the Edge 8,75/10 14) Larks Tongues 8,75/10 ------- 15) Selling England 8,5/10 16) Per un Amico 8,5/10 17) Si on avait besoin d'une cinquième saison 8,5/10 18) Animals 8,5/10 19) Io Sono Nato Libero 8,5/10 20) Fragile 8,5/10 ------- 21) From Silence To Nowhere 8,25/10 22) Moonmadness 8,25/10 23) Moving Pictures 8,25/10 -------- 24) Mirage 8/10 -------- 25) Thick As a Brick 7,75/10 26) Hemispheres 7,75/10 --------- 27) Nursery Crime 7,5/10 --------- --------- 28) Hybris 7/10 -------- 29) In A Glass House 6,75/10 *** Kind of Blue 8,5 but it's jazz (year 1959), not prog. I consider it out of competition. Edited by jamesbaldwin - October 15 2021 at 17:59 |
||||
|
Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
|
||||
|
||||
|
Sacro_Porgo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 15 2019 Location: Cygnus Status: Offline Points: 2062 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 15 2021 at 20:46 |
|||
I didn't use the right word their, my apologies. Efficiency's not really my issue with it. It just feels aimless to me. I understand that's the point. I guess I just don't like it. It sounds to me what I imagine would happen if Robert Fripp started telling everyone to play as minimally and aimlessly as possible in a more or less random fashion, which frankly is about what I imagine having happened. These are all excellent musicians, but the result doesn't do anything more for me than spa music. It's soothing I suppose, even pretty at times, but as far as King Crimson improvisations go I find most everything done by the 72-74 lineup much more comelling.
|
||||
|
Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
|
||||
|
||||
|
moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18071 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 16 2021 at 06:50 |
|||
Hi, I'm not sure, and that's just me thinking and NOT using Ian's words, but a lot of "progressive music" depended on moments that were improvised (at least in rehearsal) and were, eventually developed. This would be a normal pattern on stage with actors, and very likely and possible with a band. "Aimless" is a funny thing, and one of the best exercises for acting, which needs to be done in music more than we probably know, is to work it until it feels totally aimless. Why? Easy! WE THINK that it is this or that and what the actor/actress is doing means this or that, and the chances that the actors felt that way is minimal, and not likely, but they know that venturing beyond the "fourth wall" is a hopeless exercise, since audiences also differ on different nights! The funny/weird thing is that learning to work "aimless" into your acting, or music, helps you interpret notes and music better. All of a sudden, you have a much deeper feeling for a note or set of notes, that allows for an interpretation that makes sense to the actor or musician. But, "aimless" from an audience, or personal point of view is hard to take, and I think that most stage folks can not worry themselves about what an audience thinks, or they will never get anything done ... you can not satisfy everyone ... and when it comes to art, it's all about you, and your life, not the audience's. What ends up as aimless for you is not aimless for me, or others, and while I don't think that is a problem, the main issue is, that it creates arguments that are mostly silly ... we're not the art ... we're reflecting what we want onto it, and that is not going to help resolve anything. The Mona Lisa will still be seeing us as you and I leave the room!
Edited by moshkito - October 16 2021 at 06:53 |
||||
|
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
||||
|
||||
|
progaardvark
Special Collaborator
Crossover/Symphonic/RPI Teams Joined: June 14 2007 Location: Sea of Peas Status: Offline Points: 52608 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 16 2021 at 08:45 |
|||
That's almost like the lyrics I write, but it's missing toasters and washing machines.
|
||||
|
----------
i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
||||
|
||||
|
Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 37240 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 16 2021 at 09:02 |
|||
|
^ It's quite Dadaist. I feel like it could go in a museum. If Pedro were willing, I'd quite like to do an art exhibit with him in a glass cubicle speaking his words (a kind of performance art where he is not engaging with the audience but as a spectacle piece). And I am being utterly serious.
|
||||
|
||||
|
progaardvark
Special Collaborator
Crossover/Symphonic/RPI Teams Joined: June 14 2007 Location: Sea of Peas Status: Offline Points: 52608 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: October 16 2021 at 09:03 |
|||
Sometimes the Mona Lisa is looking at ironing boards. It's a good exercise trying to be an ironing board as it is one of the most aimless appliances ever invented. Just look at the angles of the legs and the strange shape of the board. It just reeks with aimlessness. Once one masters being an ironing board (which I admit isn't totally aimless), aimlessness just comes naturally. Think of it as a tool for the uninitiated. Once you are able to envelop yourself in aimlessness without the ironing board as a helper, the possibilities in music are endless. I encourage you to try this with words too. The juxtaposition of various words aimlessly spread across a palette gives some interesting random rhythmic and melodic sensibilities. For example: Butter ranch each bolts accommodations the when guide curvature viscacha hydrogenated you the circle me. If aimlessness in language and literature isn't being studied by linguists or literary scholars, then their degrees aren't worth the paper they're printed on. But we'll let the Mona Lisa determine where that goes!
|
||||
|
----------
i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
||||
|
||||
|
Post Reply
|
Page <1 56789 10> |
| Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |
Topic Options
Sacro_Porgo wrote: