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Are Certain Genres Not "Music"?
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    Posted: March 19 2021 at 06:06
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

^ Correct. There have been a lot of studies about what bird songs are about and what they are communicating. Composer Oliver Messian was an avid student of bird songs and utilized them in his many compositions.
The 'bird songs' are communicating, but are they making music? If any animal or human communicates, is that music? I don't agree with that. 


It's music if you want to perceive it as such, as is whale song.

Human speech, in any language has rhythm. That's the basis of rap and hip hop - to give a crude example. If someone released a recoding of someone talking rubbish non stop for an hour, and decided to brand it 'Chat Pop' and it gained an audience, it becomes music. I wouldn't listen to it (probably) but that's irrelevant.
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Here is a good scientific essay:   https://aeon.co/essays/mapping-the-brains-connective-structure-could-unlock-immortality

Here is a part that is related to something we talked about here:

"Across species, synchronisation and coordination of neural signals between seemingly distant brain regions within a connectome provide the scaffold for execution and memory of ordered sequences of events. For example, when young birds learn their songs, they encode, store and retrieve the sound patterns they hear from other birds, in various chains of neurons which, in turn, activate sequences of muscle movements that create the same sonic patterns."
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Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

7 pages of this.....really?
I'm letting Mr Zappa have the last word ...at least for me.    Wink
"So, if music is the best, what is music? Anything can be music, but it doesn’t become music until someone wills it to be music, and the audience listening to it decides to perceive it as music.” – Frank Zappa

I just finished his book recently, and I was just thinking about all that he wrote about in the chapter on music when considering how to frame some of the stuff on this thread.

He also had a basic idea for music streaming services decades before it came to be. 
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Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^It would be classic regressive Nature prog.

Classic Regressive Avian Prog?


I just have had a flurry of such on my windshield as of late. Blotblammit.

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Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Bird songs have rhythm, pitch, repeating melodic motifs with variations and are used for specific communications.
Sounds like music to me. They are very intelligent and do not babble a bunch of nonsense with no purpose.


Not a genre though. At least not yet. A washing machine could be considered music too. In fact there are guitarists who play with them as the percussive backing but as far as i know, still not a genre of music.

As far as birds go, we really don't know what they are conveying so whether its nonsense or not is undetermined however i tend to agree with you that they are conveying a purposeful message. It's just that the evidence is elusive in an absolute confirmation. I would guess that it's a combination of meaning and non-meaning just like a piano roll doesn't have any meaning beyond an emotional reaction.

in some cases we actually do know. I remember reading about a bird (I think it was a warbler) that combined four different calls to a kind of "song with lyrics": a call for attention, a call that announces he is in the mood for love, a call for the female and a call for being lonely. so this actually was a song with the "lyrics": "attention, I am in the mood for love. lover, come here! because I am so lonely"


Cool! I'm obviously not up on my bird music Wink

Do birds have pop stars or are they strictly traditional? LOL

I love the sound of birds chirping their beautiful melodies. Approve

It doesn't surprise me that this research has been done but it's cool someone has done it Smile

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Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^It would be classic regressive Nature prog.


Classic Regressive Avian Prog?
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^It would be classic regressive Nature prog.

Classic Regressive Avian Prog?
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7 pages of this.....really?
I'm letting Mr Zappa have the last word ...at least for me.    Wink
"So, if music is the best, what is music? Anything can be music, but it doesn’t become music until someone wills it to be music, and the audience listening to it decides to perceive it as music.” – Frank Zappa
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"now one bird is chirping in 4/4, while another dissonantly chirps in 5/4, every 4 measures...."

-Robird Fripp and Adrian Birdlew on Flock by Flock (1981)
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^It would be classic regressive Nature prog.
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

If indeed nature sounds are music, as many here believe, I encourage the genre teams and admins to be leaders and include a PA genre for "Nature Sounds"? I would love to read the reviews on such music... "Well its seems on "Birds Chirping - Volume 7" the songs are starting to sound the same. The magic heard on Volume 2, when Bluebird 5 was lead chirper, is long long gone. Did anyone hear the woodpecker off time in the background? That really ruined my enjoyment of this album...." Wink

Considering birds have been around much longer than humans, wouldn't that be some of the most regressive music ever? If it was just the bird sounds. I assume we would have to accept Homo erectus and Homo fiorensis music next, haha.
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Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Fantastic idea but it's clearly not prog and wouldn't get passed any of the sub team panels. Not even the avant panheads, home off all things prog not prog.

I haven't listened to enough prog metal to know if this would be suitable for PA, but about a year ago I found this microtonal metal band that has a parrot as its vocalist. 


If you think the prog metal team would be interested, please be my guest.


It reminded me of this abomination. It was micky that made me confronted with this madness. LOL
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Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Fantastic idea but it's clearly not prog and wouldn't get passed any of the sub team panels. Not even the avant panheads, home off all things prog not prog.

I haven't listened to enough prog metal to know if this would be suitable for PA, but about a year ago I found this microtonal metal band that has a parrot as its vocalist. 


If you think the prog metal team would be interested, please be my guest.


this is some much funny, many thanks for sharing, it is unironically making my day right now
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Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Fantastic idea but it's clearly not prog and wouldn't get passed any of the sub team panels. Not even the avant panheads, home off all things prog not prog.

I haven't listened to enough prog metal to know if this would be suitable for PA, but about a year ago I found this microtonal metal band that has a parrot as its vocalist. 


If you think the prog metal team would be interested, please be my guest.







Edited by progaardvark - March 16 2021 at 13:23
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Along the lines of John Cage's 4'33", if you created a score that says something along the lines of "the sounds that occur between x time and y time" or something similar and then recorded the bird sounds that occur between said times, then there would be a musical work that has been created, which exists in the classical tradition (more precisely, a part of the music culture associated with Academia). (To be more precise, the musical work would exist whether the recording is made or not. The recording would simply be a recording of one performance of said work. Furthermore, I think the work would exist when a composer comes up with the performance details of the work and somehow takes the step to set those details in proverbial stone, which doesn't necessarily require a score to be created, but creating a score is one way to do that.)

The audio itself would also be music in some zen-esque "there are no non-musical sounds" sense (or whatever that is about), whether that score had been created or not.

It wouldn't be music in the "pitched and unpitched sounds produced by humans playing instruments and organized in a way that produces something with some combination of melodies, rhythms, and harmonies that is coherent within a diatonic context akin to 'Mary Had a Little Lamb'" sense or however you want to phrase it

I don't think it would be prog for any definition of prog in widespread use


Edited by Erenan - March 16 2021 at 13:22
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Nah, his wife would ruin it.
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I bet the Steven Wilson 7.1 mix would sound stellar.
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Or "A Bird In The Hand Is Very Messy."
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

If indeed nature sounds are music, as many here believe, I encourage the genre teams and admins to be leaders and include a PA genre for "Nature Sounds"? I would love to read the reviews on such music... "Well its seems on "Birds Chirping - Volume 7" the songs are starting to sound the same. The magic heard on Volume 2, when Bluebird 5 was lead chirper, is long long gone. Did anyone hear the woodpecker off time in the background? That really ruined my enjoyment of this album...." Wink
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

If indeed nature sounds are music, as many here believe, I encourage the genre teams and admins to be leaders and include a PA genre for "Nature Sounds"? I would love to read the reviews on such music... "Well its seems on "Birds Chirping - Volume 7" the songs are starting to sound the same. The magic heard on Volume 2, when Bluebird 5 was lead chirper, is long long gone. Did anyone hear the woodpecker off time in the background? That really ruined my enjoyment of this album...." Wink
File Under Avant/RIO.
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