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Are Certain Genres Not "Music"?

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Forum Name: General Music Discussions
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Printed Date: November 26 2024 at 17:40
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Topic: Are Certain Genres Not "Music"?
Posted By: Awesoreno
Subject: Are Certain Genres Not "Music"?
Date Posted: March 10 2021 at 15:25
I made this since Lewian thought it better to discuss on a thread not dedicated to a Steven Wilson interview. I agree. 

Have at it. 



Replies:
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: March 10 2021 at 15:28
Define "music" please....

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Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: March 10 2021 at 15:36
Well, I knew a definition of music would have to follow. But some people have different ideas of music. My approach is pretty all-encompassing, and depends solely on the intent of the artist. Frank Zappa has a pretty open-ended definition of a composition in his book.

How do you define music?


Posted By: JD
Date Posted: March 10 2021 at 15:41
'Music' comes from the Greek mousa (muse),
The Muses were the Greek poets' divinized conceptions of the faculties that help them to create and recite poetry.
So, the simple answer to your question is, NO, certain genres (whatever they are) are ALWAYS music.
Next question?


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Thank you for supporting independently produced music


Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: March 10 2021 at 15:46
I agree with JD.........any genre of music is music. How is music not music??

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Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: March 10 2021 at 16:02
I guess I need to read the original thread, but yeah...music is music. There are definitely genres where the music is secondary (for example, rap and pop), but they are still music. 

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Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.


Posted By: suitkees
Date Posted: March 10 2021 at 16:19
The question is probably not well defined, since as soon we are talking about genre, we are talking about a typology and a typology is always a typology of something - in this case music.

I think the discussion that is referred to was much more triggered by this exchange:
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Yes. For me, music has to have rhythm, melody, and harmony. Acepella is only one out of three.

Music has to have sound, sound, and sound. That's more than enough.

Which is a different questioning than to talk about musical genres...

I guess that as soon sound is being made with an intention that goes beyond the mere communication function but looks for a poetic function, we could talk about music. "Harmony" is something very much culturally determined... So, yes, sound, sound and sound, as soon as there is some intentional composing behind it... I guess...
(now, to contradict - or question - myself: are birds singing producing music...?)


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The razamataz is a pain in the bum


Posted By: JD
Date Posted: March 10 2021 at 16:35
First flaw in Grumpyprogfan's argument...How does A Cappella only have one of the three elements from the list above, it has two at the very least and a talented singer can sing harmony with themselves.

Ok, my mistake, it was a twin. LOL

But really, rhythm & melody are easily present in singing


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Thank you for supporting independently produced music


Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: March 10 2021 at 16:43
As I said, for me, music needs rhythm (the beat), melody (what you hum - usually the lyrics), and harmony (the chords or notes that exist with melody). Sound only is not music. Was your baby waking you up all night crying (sound) music? Not to my ears. Just like a blank canvas is not art - it needs paint.


Posted By: JD
Date Posted: March 10 2021 at 16:57
Have you not seen The Beatles White Album?


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Posted By: JD
Date Posted: March 10 2021 at 17:17
This should blow your mind.




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Thank you for supporting independently produced music


Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: March 10 2021 at 17:30
A friend told me the story that he once went to an avantgarde concert (that some people may not find very "musical"). Somebody stood up and shouted "that's not music", and the bandleader then said, "well, I don't know, we can talk about that if you want, or we may go on anyway if that's fine by you". Which apparently was more popular, so they did...

This comes too late in the day so I'll probably join in tomorrow (thought there's quite a bit of work to do).



Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: March 10 2021 at 17:39
Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

This should blow your mind.
Not mine. What do you think of this?



Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 10 2021 at 17:56
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Define "music" please....

Hi,

And I think that's where it all "starts". I'm guilty in that in the 60's there were things being done in theater, film and music that "defied" the standard norms of "what music is/was" ... and yet, we did not dislike them, and somehow they survived the onslaught of folks making fun of it. 

A fun example ... some electronic stuff in the 50's was not considered "music" but was used in a few films, and it came off fantastic, helping give it "not here" or "somewhere else in the universe" feel ... that even things like "Star Wars" DID NOT DO, BUT FAKED IT!

In the 60's when you look at Joseph Chaikan and many others, the "voice" was important, and when you see Mick accentuate certain words and phrases, you know he "got it" ... and used it forever, and still does very well. It defied the "definition" of the art form, but one thing happened ... it ended up spreading the "experiment" into the main source of music ... electronics in the early days, got a "keyboard" and all of a sudden was "considered" music because it was played ... not just haphazard noises!

Fast forward, and we get into a society that is so split up, in every way you can possibly imagine, and what do we do? We create a myriad of "genres" so people can find the stuff that seems better for them ... and in essence all we're doing is separating everything, and avoiding the discussion of ... "what is music". 

It doesn't help that many of the genres are not even about "music" per se, within a composed context, which has been for hundreds of years the defined "description" of what is music and what is just a barroom brawl and fun! Thus, my take (sometimes -- not always) that some stuff defies the idea of what music is ... well, I guess that using your DAW and creating a beat is composition ... without anything else except the adlibbing and words thrown in for effect ... the only concern I have is that the "beat" doesn't change ... another sentence is added to it instead, which makes is seem like "music".

My take is that the breakdown in the "definition" of things is the problem, and add to the equation that everyone in "social media" is a music expert and that their opinion is more important than the history and what made us define it so ... and many of these folks at times, do not care about that history or definition ... they just want their jingle in their ears, so they can have enough gumption to go to work, or school! We did the same thing a bit differently I thought, but in the end ... it feels like it was just different clothing! And, of course, colors!


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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 10 2021 at 18:05
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

A friend told me the story that he once went to an avantgarde concert (that some people may not find very "musical"). Somebody stood up and shouted "that's not music", and the bandleader then said, "well, I don't know, we can talk about that if you want, or we may go on anyway if that's fine by you". Which apparently was more popular, so they did...
...

Hi,

Still not as bad as when we came out of "East Meets West" in Chicago and the fat over done ladies were in unison and the leader was saying out loud ... "how can you call all that improvisation ... music?" ... and it didn't matter that one of its folks was Yehudi Menuhin ... along with Ravi Shankar ... the lack of respect for the artists appreciation for music from what would be considered a different realm ... is a problem ... and guess what ... we get the same thing here.

I do not, exactly, think that rap/hip-hop is not music, but it creates a bit of confusion in my mind as to what "music" is ... and is not. But, one thing, for sure ... I do not want the RIGID and pathetic, separation that academia makes for all this ... because a lot of the hit stuff, still is considered "street music" and not "real music" ... and at this point I say ... time out ...  now we're back to social rendering ... not discussing music! So someone is telling me that a circle in a different country with different people can not count because it was a ritual (going back to Missa Luba, and Pipes of Pan) and NOT MUSIC per se, which means it had to be composed and then played.


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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: March 10 2021 at 18:14
I think the presence of any one of those things, melody, harmony or rhythm is enough to constitute being called "music." I'd take it even further to the point where really any collection of sounds can be music, some of the most incredible stuff i've ever heard was when a professor showed me this small ensemble of her and some colleagues using their instruments in the most unconventional and avant garde ways, using mallets on the inside of a piano, vibrating guitar strings by tapping and rubbing the back of the guitar, it was really indescribable. I don't think anything is black and white, and music is what you make of it. At the end of the day it is just a collection of floating notes and pitches, it can be anything.

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The sun has left the sky...
...Now you can close your eyes


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 10 2021 at 18:17
Hi,

About SW ... his "definition" of music has changed. In the earlier days, the band created an atmosphere that helped his words stand up ... and nowadays, there is no atmosphere ... just a "song" and the words are more important than the atmosphere, and we're supposed to enjoy the feeling by his words ... 

I'm not sure that I care for the "song" person named SW ... I much prefer the trip material that was his band ... but then, you know what this says, right? ... guess where the "trip" idea came from ... NOT HIM! Specially visible now that he thinks his words are the trip and the music is secondary to it! Just augmented by his solo part and such ... just another "pop song" in my book!


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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: March 10 2021 at 18:33
Any sound, or lack of sound, that is performed by an artist whether deliberate or improvised meets my definition of music whether it be free jazz or industrial drone noise. It may not be music I'd listen to but it meets the definition.

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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: March 10 2021 at 18:57
An "amusing" topic.

Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

'Music' comes from the Greek mousa (muse),
The Muses were the Greek poets' divinized conceptions of the faculties that help them to create and recite poetry.
So, the simple answer to your question is, NO, certain genres (whatever they are) are ALWAYS music.
Next question?
 
While, without seeing your post, I might have opted to present a tautology and say that non-music genres are not music or music genres by definition, since genres refers to categories of artistic composition, and the muses cover the arts and sciences, I will defer to your point in a certain agreement. Music can be considered to be more than sound, but also it can be considered to be less than "just sound" since it commonly implies arrangement.   Traffic noise can be incorporated into music and by itself not be considered music.  Trafficcore, and Post-Traffic, may be music genres, and Traffic is a band, but traffic noise alone might not inspire the muses -- that said, traffic controllers may be inspired by Erato, the muse of erotic poetry and traffic control.  Noise music is a genre of music, of course, but that incorporates "just noise" into a musical framework.  I often think of music generally as simply ordered and sequential notes of sound (though some have attempted one note "music").  That sound need not be musical per se to my ears, but it is structured to be music or must be perceived as music, which can rather depend on the listener.  Music generally is a sort of relationship between the composer and the sound, and the sound and the listener.

As for the "next question", when (if ever or never) is the Art genre not Art when it's an Art Garfunkel?  And what is art, and the limitations thereof, in the garfunkelian paradigm? 


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https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts


Posted By: Erenan
Date Posted: March 10 2021 at 19:50
Presuming the question is asking about genres that purport to be music but actually are not music, and insofar as certain definitions of "music" might be considered to be correct definitions, there do exist correct definitions for which the answer is "no."


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https://lukesimpsonmusic.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: March 10 2021 at 20:10
The word genre is meaningless without another word that goes with it, so when you ask if a certain genre of music is well, music then of course it is.

Are certain genres of art not music? Of course.

You could rightfully ask a question that refers to sound art genera being classified as music or not.

If the gist of your question is whether certain free improvisation or sound collage works are music then i guess the answer would be: it  depends on the listener.

Some music is so obscured by mystery that there is music lurking beneath but it comes off as gibberish.

Think about scores like "Kontakte" by Stockhausen which sounds like a smattering of randomness but in fact is quite structured and complex in its compositional approach therefore yes, it is music but lurking in a sea of abstractness that may not make it recognizably so.

As far as if artists like AMM or the noise of Merzbow are musical, i guess that's a gray area of interpretation which is probably what the artists were trying to achieve, namely attention through controversy.


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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: March 10 2021 at 21:18
Ah, this is a what is music thread. 

Well, the best definition I can think of is, (deliberately) manipulated sound. 


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Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.


Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: March 11 2021 at 08:40
One can experience the music of humans talking (try focusing on the sounds more than the words; languages can be very musical), the music of junk falling down the steps, the music of cars and trucks on a highway, the music in the radio signals emitted from planets and stars, or even the music of silence itself (by this I mean purposeful placements of silence between sounds).

So I can't really define music per se. It seems to me more like an experience. We can definitely narrowly define it to what most folks traditionally think of as music, but there will always be these gray areas around the edges of this narrow definition.

You can even take a different path with this (though I admit there may be many flaws with this idea). Music can be described by mathematics and in a way you could describe mathematics as a form of music. This would eventually lead some to the idea that the universe is itself music and music is the universe. So I leave that idea for anyone that has nothing to do today to ponder.






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i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag
that's a happy bag of lettuce
this car smells like cartilage
nothing beats a good video about fractions


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: March 11 2021 at 08:47
One definition  of music is the art of arranging sounds in time so as to produce a continuous, unified, and evocative composition, as through melody, harmony, rhythm, and timbre.

That means melody and harmony are not prerequisites for defining a sonic stream of consciousness as music.


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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: MortSahlFan
Date Posted: March 11 2021 at 11:07
For me, music must have musical instruments. A voice is a musical instrument to me. A drum machine is not. Nor is auto-tune and other automated computer generated sh*t.

There are songs that might have a sound such as an actual glass breaking for effect, or the band recording thunder for spice, but there's usually a drum set involved, or a guitar, piano, vocals.

For me, I would guess most rap is not music. For example, The Doors rapped, rhythmically singing lyrics with music... Sampling is lazy corporate business bullsh*t. Taking a hit song, and just adding an extra layer with auto-tune because one can't sing is degeneracy.


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https://www.youtube.com/c/LoyalOpposition

https://www.scribd.com/document/382737647/MortSahlFan-Song-List


Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: March 11 2021 at 12:31
I don't see how hitting a drum with the same force 10 times and getting the same sound out of it is any different than playing a sample 10 times on a drum machine. They both achieve the same thing. I also believe using pitch correction or tuning, which has been used for several several years can actually be used in really interesting and creative ways to manipulate sound. Also.... I mean.... the mellotron itself is sampling, and that's once again, another technique that goes back years long before hip hop was a thing. If you don't believe Hip Hop is music, and you say that as a big one size fits all statement, you are old, probably white, a embodiment of a certain stereotype (a certain 6 letter b word that last I heard was banned on this site, go figure), and probably don't have enough respect or understanding of music as a whole, let alone that genre and its history, to be commenting on it. Beer

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The sun has left the sky...
...Now you can close your eyes


Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: March 11 2021 at 12:51
I just wish some people would have a moment of clarity and instead of trying to tear down an entire movement and genre of music, not limited to hip hop, they would choose one of these two options:

1: "Well, I haven't found anything I like from this genre but I'm willing to take recommendations and give it a fair shot and try to understand the appeal"

or,

2: "I've given this style a fair shot and at the end of the day, it just isn't for me. But if you enjoy it, more power to you, maybe one day i'll come around to it"

I feel like both of these are totally understandable, way more productive and far less offensive than trying to do mental gymnastics to scientifically prove that a genre of music you don't like or understand, can't even be called music.


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The sun has left the sky...
...Now you can close your eyes


Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: March 11 2021 at 13:02
Happy Birthday Doug. Someone who in youth has so much more wisdom and tolerance than so many of the grumpy old fogies on this forum.

I’ve never understood why some people feel the need to express their dislike with insulting terms. It’s not exactly hard to say, “I don’t really like any rap I’ve heard”, yet some people have to say instead “I don’t like rap, it’s all a load of crap, and it’s not even music.”

I’m not even willing to say I don’t like a genre of music, because even if I don’t like 99% of what I hear, it’s almost inevitable I come across something I like. So country and bluegrass, to mention just two, are genres that don’t greatly excite me. But I’ve had songs played to me that I enjoy from them.

My mum and dad always taught me that if I had nothing nice to say, it was better to say nothing at all. I think this holds true here. There’s no need to disparage and insult a genre of music, just because it is not to your taste. Furthermore, I’m not even sure why people need to express their dislike a lot of the time, in the first place. In a discussion like this, it makes sense - but I’ve seen people almost arbitrarily state heir dislike for something someone else has brought up, without it adding anything to the discussion. It’s kind of like a Bye, Felicia moment in reverse. A Hi, Felicia, if you will.

People are strange.



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https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 11 2021 at 13:11
The fact that a musical approach is deemed a genre must mean it is a form of music.   However, a discussion about what music itself is, as opposed to sound without thought or form, is an entirely reasonable and worthwhile topic.



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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy


Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: March 11 2021 at 13:13
^ Thanks for the birthday wishes! Gotta say, this one is going a lot better than the last one where I lost my job and my school closed down on the same day! This time around I got accepted to both my top college choices for music education so we're feeling pretty good over here! One of which Dream Theaters Kevin Moore went to, but i'll probably be going with the other school.

I agree with everything you've said above, and I love talking to anybody who has a deep appreciation of music because like you've said, I believe there's value in pretty much every style and I just might not know it yet, or I just so far haven't run into that time and a place where that particular style fits. I also believe if you build up enough of a familiarity with something that may at one point have seemed so out there and foreign, it can really creep up on you. This year I got super deep into technical death metal, just a year and change ago i'd be pretty annoyed at some of those sounds that I really can get into now. By just shooting down and writing off particular styles of music.... nobody wins and nobodies happy, you're just kinda backing yourself into a corner when there could be whole new worlds out there to explore.


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The sun has left the sky...
...Now you can close your eyes


Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: March 11 2021 at 13:31
Low-IQ Mode On

Some genres aren't music, of course. Think of the horror genre. It is on the silver screen, for God's sake. How can it be a music?

Low-IQ Mode Off

Seriously though, I think Rap is definitely a genre of music; but do they "produce" music from their unique sketches or not? Most of them don't I guess. So, whether they "create" music or not is disputable, IMO.

Also there are millions of shades of grey in criticism. It is not my thing to "categorize" criticisms while ignoring their own peculiar merits. Some "offensive", "belittling" or even "attacking" negative criticisms can be very insightful, profound and even disillusioning IMO. I'd rather assess them one by one instead, even if directed towards something that I'm a fan of.


Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: March 11 2021 at 13:38
Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

^ Thanks for the birthday wishes! Gotta say, this one is going a lot better than the last one where I lost my job and my school closed down on the same day! This time around I got accepted to both my top college choices for music education so we're feeling pretty good over here! One of which Dream Theaters Kevin Moore went to, but i'll probably be going with the other school.

I agree with everything you've said above, and I love talking to anybody who has a deep appreciation of music because like you've said, I believe there's value in pretty much every style and I just might not know it yet, or I just so far haven't run into that time and a place where that particular style fits. I also believe if you build up enough of a familiarity with something that may at one point have seemed so out there and foreign, it can really creep up on you. This year I got super deep into technical death metal, just a year and change ago i'd be pretty annoyed at some of those sounds that I really can get into now. By just shooting down and writing off particular styles of music.... nobody wins and nobodies happy, you're just kinda backing yourself into a corner when there could be whole new worlds out there to explore.

Absolutely. For a long time, I avoided any music with harsh vocals, because they were just too far out of my comfort zone. But I never said I didn’t like the music, so much as I couldn’t tolerate the vocals. I still don’t particularly like a lot of the vocals, but there are some I actually enjoy, and I can now tolerate most. It has opened up not just one but several musical worlds to me.

In fact, for the longest time heavy music in general was often out of my comfort zone. The heaviest bands I listened to were bands like Alice in Chains and Soundgarden, or Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden. It took me some years for my tastes to get heavier, and even more before I reached the aforementioned point where I could listen to more extreme heavy music.

Likewise, but at the opposite end of the spectrum, for a long time I avoided any ambient music, because a lot of what I’d heard was more of the “new age” stuff that still doesn’t really float my boat, or just required either too much or too little focus than I was used to giving. (I say too much or too little, because some ambient music works when it is just that - ambience - and it is somehow more enjoyable to listen to without focusing on; while other ambient music almost requires focus to enjoy it.

I listened to some jazz and some classical, but only because one of my friends was in a jazz band and in an orchestra, and I wasn’t particularly keen on any of it. I didn’t dislike it, and I quite enjoyed going along to see my friend play, but I never felt the need to explore the pieces played and hear more from any of the composers. I definitely would never have dreamed of buying an album of any of the music. And yet in the last couple of years I’ve probably listened more to jazz and classical music more than most other genres.

And rap. I used to think I could never like any rap, but in my last year of high school something clicked. There’s probably still more rap out there I don’t like than do, but man there is some awesome stuff there - and it’s undoubtedly music. And certainly with greater melody, harmony and rhythm than some of the prog I listen to.

Most of time, if someone dismisses anything by way of an insult, it is really only a sign of their ignorance and unwillingness. Some people are wilfully obtuse. And usually there is no way to change their minds. The only person that can change their mind is themselves.




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https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect


Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: March 11 2021 at 14:23
OK, I'm going to get serious on this, maybe too serious...

1
I don't believe that there is an objectively true meaning of a word. Words are not defined in a neutral vacuum. They are defined by use and by use they are changed. The meaning of most words is floating, and different people can legitimately use different meanings of the same word.

2
That said, obviously language is used to achieve (at least the illusion of) understanding, so uses of the same word are usually more or less strongly connected. I can say the wind outside is music but Beethoven's Fifth isn't, but the only thing that this would achieve is that nobody would take me seriously.

3
So every person can legitimately have their own concept of music but the vast majority of these will be fairly similar. Although I'm not sure whether when coming to the definition there is much more that people could agree on than that music is made of of sound (if not necessarily 100%), 99.9% of people will agree on many many works being music, and chances are even regarding those that are controversial (noise, field recordings, spoken word dominated stuff) most could agree on what makes them controversial, if not necessarily on the same side of the argument.

4
But why does there even have to be an argument? If hip hop is music for me but not for X, I could well say, so be it, we don't have to agree, or (this is different!) X has no right to tell me what I should think is music and neither do I have a right to tell them.

5
Probably the more interesting question than "what is music" is: How is the statement "Y is not music" used? What does the person who says that want to convey? Just that Y does not fit their personal definition of music but everybody else can disagree no problem? If that were the case, it wouldn't be very interesting, would it? But there are other meanings, for example "I hate it but want to give my personal hate a more general and objective feel" (then one could say this in order to clarify), or "I don't see a reason to listen to it; it's outside the range of things that I consider valuable even to try to get a music experience" - which is all fine as long as it's personal, but I wonder whether these persons think that "Y is not music" should have consequences for other people (like never inviting people who do Y to perform on music festivals).

6
Personally I don't find it very relevant where to draw the line, as for me it doesn't have much implication whether something is "really music" or not. I may like or not like to hear it regardless. Being music is not a category that implies or is necessary for quality of listening. At the same time I'm very interested in the issue because I think that the attempt to extend the borders of music leads to creative and interesting work. Much of what I listen to is in the "grey area", often consciously put there by the artists. "What is music" can be inspiring as a question, and this is what I like about it.

7
Twice, in different ways, I was in a conversation with friends (once with musician friends, once with a friend who has a bit of a comedian ambition) about whatever, and we started spontaneously and more or less smoothly to make the conversation about the sound rather than what it was originally about, for example by repeating sentences, and making them consciously sound in a way that would evoke "musical qualities", leaving the "content" on its own. Music or not music, not so important, but the concept of musicality was very important for this. The first rappers may have got into it in the same manner. Still there are people who discover musical qualities of what they're doing while speaking, and who may then consciously go further in that direction (although of course now rap is all over the place and not much originality or "discovery" is needed to have this idea... except that it can be done in quite different ways as well).

8
I do have a tendency to think that music happens (and is in this sense produced) in the listener's ear. I can enhance my experience of daily life (or get into some kind of meditation) sometimes by trying to consciously listen to what's around me as music (if sometimes this "music" is not good... but often it is). Once more, the question whether it really is music is ultimately not important, but the "concept" of music is, as a different more conscious mode of listening. I may even catch myself imagining a musician arranging what I hear, but obviously that's nonsense. The only person who arranges it is myself, despite not being involved in the sound creation.   

9
I'm surely not alone with this. I read Irmin Schmidt and Holger Czukay (Can) saying similar things about their listening experiences, as well as Asmus Tietchens, Fred Frith, and a number of avantgarde musicians. The whole "genre" of field recording is built on that. 
https://frameworkradio.net/" rel="nofollow - https://frameworkradio.net/

10
"Intention" of the musician - I'm not so sure how important that is. To say that "Music is what is made with the intention to make music" as a definition is circular. The intention needs to be described without referring to music. "Arrangement of sound for listening pleasure"? Well, not all music is meant to please the ears... maybe "arrangement of sounds by criteria based on listening experience" (what about Beethoven when he was already deaf?)
If I hear something as music, whether I like it or not, what difference does it make what the intention was behind putting together the sounds in this way, or if there was any?
   
11
Then there's a whole different kind of approach to learning and teaching music, of specific rules of harmony and melody and rhythm, of "what goes" according to some rules (that I do not deny have strong some experience and wisdom behind them, if culturally constrained), or just about a more or less informed intuition of musicality - or at a much higher expert level about learning/studying an instrument or composition. This may be "sold" in some sense as essence of music. Again I believe what is important about this is the positive discovery and refinement of rules and conditions of "musicality" of a certain kind. Much quality comes from this. The exclusion side of it - "it's not music if it doesn't work according to these rules" - doesn't seem to be productive to me, or rather, it has been productive only by giving rise to rebellion, and extension of the range of what can count as music. But fair enough, not only the perfection of established kinds of music, also instigating rebellion and creativity that runs against it are achievements, so fine by me.
  
12
And then there's all kinds of mixtures between music and other art forms such as rap or "sound installation", music to convey non-musical messages etc. Are these music? Don't know. Is it important? What are the implications for you of locating something inside or outside music?


Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: March 11 2021 at 14:28
To put the maybe most essential question as a one-liner:
What difference does it actually make to you if you say "Y is music and Z isn't"? It's gotta mean more than "I don't like Z", does it?



Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: March 11 2021 at 14:49
^Wow, Lewian you went out of my comfort zone serious. I suppose there is nothing wrong with multiple definitions of the word music. I'm an old geezer, and I'm lucky to still have my sense of hearing to enjoy music.


Posted By: JD
Date Posted: March 11 2021 at 15:15


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Thank you for supporting independently produced music


Posted By: TheLionOfPrague
Date Posted: March 11 2021 at 16:32
Reggeaton.

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I shook my head and smiled a whisper knowing all about the place


Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: March 11 2021 at 18:03
This has been an amazing discussion so far, and exactly what I hoped for. I won't even single out certain responses since most of them have been pretty elucidating, even ones I disagree with.

I probably should have explained more in my original post. This thread was borne from a discussion on another thread, wherein it was argued by some (including myself) whether or not certain recognized genres of music (in this case, rap, hip-hop, and reggaeton were mentioned) were even "music." So the title of the thread is more indicative of my opinion since I consider those genres in question (and many others) as music. I was really just inviting any opinions to the contrary to start what would hopefully be an insightful debate. Which was risky, but paid off I'd say.


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: March 11 2021 at 18:16
Originally posted by TheLionOfPrague TheLionOfPrague wrote:

Reggeaton.





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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 11 2021 at 18:16
Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

I don't see how hitting a drum with the same force 10 times and getting the same sound out of it is any different than playing a sample 10 times on a drum machine. They both achieve the same thing. I also believe using pitch correction or tuning, which has been used for several several years can actually be used in really interesting and creative ways to manipulate sound. Also.... I mean.... the mellotron itself is sampling, and that's once again, another technique that goes back years long before hip hop was a thing. If you don't believe Hip Hop is music, and you say that as a big one size fits all statement, you are old, probably white, a embodiment of a certain stereotype (a certain 6 letter b word that last I heard was banned on this site, go figure), and probably don't have enough respect or understanding of music as a whole, let alone that genre and its history, to be commenting on it. Beer

Hmmm, it's possible that he is but OTOH it may also not be true. 

If we don't understand why hip hop evokes such a negative reaction from a lot of people, we are going to keep assuming it is nothing but a target for people to vent their racism towards.  

But I know from my own experience that it's possible to not be white, to not have any antipathy towards black people or their culture and still dislike hip hop.  I was one such guy.  I used to hate it and routinely called it 'not music'. 

But why did I do that?  Because my - Indian - music traditions were also rooted in melody (though we don't have harmony like the West).  You grow up thinking a song should have a melody and then one day you're told this kind of music which doesn't have melody is what the critics think you should listen to.  You don't take it well.  You think it's BS.  I was a huge, huge R&B and jazz fan for a long, long time before I finally got comfortable with hip hop. 

So yes, while those like Shapiro try to make out hip hop as a manifestation of inferior culture, it's not necessary that everybody who dislikes it does so for that reason.  The most likely reason is that it is revolutionary in the context of what many different music cultures have traditionally regarded as music.  So it's a good thing that even after four decades, people continue to Sl*g off hip hop even though metal has become ubiquitous.  It just shows that even the most extreme music that has a melodic and harmonic foundation is easier to digest for people than hip hop which moves primarily on rhythm. 


Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: March 11 2021 at 19:13
^ Re: the previous posts:
There are also a lot more diverse opinions than just " I Like rap, or I don't like rap."
I really liked late 80s rap when it was based around classic funk sampled loops and creative add-on sampling. The rhymes had a swing beat to them and moved in double time like a jazz horn solo. The lyrics were often clever, humorous and unpredictable.

Enter the mid 90s and the music hit a severe down swing, boring rhythms, predictable subject matter, repetitive commercial sound etc.

These days rap/hip-hop has a wide variety ranging from tons of commercial crap to some really creative poetry set to equally creative music. The commercial crap is what most are exposed to.
As far as the op goes, music is what you feel like listening to. I can listen to the environmental sounds around me as if they were something that were meant to be.


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 11 2021 at 21:03
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

^ Re: the previous posts:
There are also a lot more diverse opinions that just " I Like rap, or I don't like rap."
I really liked late 80s rap when it was based around classic funk sampled loops and creative add-on sampling. The rhymes had a swing beat to them and moved in double time like a jazz horn solo. The lyrics were often clever, humorous and unpredictable.

Enter the mid 90s and the music hit a severe down swing, boring rhythms, predictable subject matter, repetitive commercial sound etc.

These days rap/hip-hop has a wide variety ranging from tons of commercial crap to some really creative poetry set to equally creative music. The commercial crap is what most are exposed to.
As far as the op goes, music is what you feel like listening to. I can listen to the environmental sounds around me as if they were something that were meant to be.


I tend to agree with this. Late 80s to early 90s was the first peak of hip hop. And in a way, the more experimental artists of the last few years are moving back to the jazz and funk roots of the genre and away from the commercial sound that dominated VH1 through the noughties and which turned off many, including myself, from hip hop.


Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: March 11 2021 at 21:44
On the same train of thought, it's important to remember that reactions like this happened before. The same argument of "this new music is all crap" or "this stuff is watered-down non-music" was thrown at most forms of rock and roll during the beginning of its proliferation, and that probably continued among snooty people well into the future, even now. 

It also works both ways. There are plenty of people who (regardless of what kind of hip-hop they listen to) think all rock just sounds like, say, Linkin Park. Now, all of us here would probably say "then you have barely heard anything of rock!" And one would be right. But that's just all that they heard. Many who bemoan rap or hip-hop or trap or etc. probably haven't really investigated that stuff either. It's just a circle of ignorance.

Maybe you have looked into it a bit, and you don't like it. That's fine. Maybe they looked into more kinds of rock and didn't like it. Also fine. There's no need to look down one's nose. Respect doesn't necessitate enjoyment or agreement.


Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: March 12 2021 at 02:22
Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

It also works both ways. There are plenty of people who (regardless of what kind of hip-hop they listen to) think all rock just sounds like, say, Linkin Park. Now, all of us here would probably say "then you have barely heard anything of rock!" And one would be right. But that's just all that they heard. Many who bemoan rap or hip-hop or trap or etc. probably haven't really investigated that stuff either. It's just a circle of ignorance.

This is definitely true. I’ve friends that only listen to hip hop, and don’t understand the appeal of rock. And even within those who listen to rock, the same “it all sounds the same to me” argument is often used by people when describing a particular genre (or subgenre) of music. The thing is, any music that someone hasn’t given a chance to, or investigated more than superficially, will inevitably sound to some extent “all the same”.

It’s not even a case of genre, either. Most people tend to stay within their comfort zone, which is usually a combination of at least one of the following: genre, geography and era. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that, but it’s probably more constructive to discussion to state “I like x and y, and haven’t liked anything I’ve heard from z”, than “I like x and y, and understand why anyone listens to z - it’s all a load of crap/it all sounds the same/it’s not even music/etc.”.

But it’s important to realise, I think, that those who dismiss a form of music they’re unfamiliar with, are not necessarily doing so because they are a snob. And those who choose to pick them up on it, and tell them how wrong they are, can potentially be snobs themselves for doing so. Again, as I pointed out in an earlier comment, it’s fine to talk about it in a discussion like this, but otherwise it’s often better to step back and look at the context that the person dismissing the music has done so in. Sometimes it might be appropriate to say something (eg they look as if they are choosing to start a discussion by saying what they are saying), but more often than not I think it makes more sense to let it go.

I know what I like, and does it really matter to me what someone doesn’t like, or why they don’t like it? No. Before I had children, I probably would have pulled everyone up, because I could be an argumentative sod, but having children definitely teaches one about choosing one’s battles. Musical choices are not a battle I tend to like to take on. I might defend why I like something, but I’ll never challenge someone else to like it.



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https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect


Posted By: geekfreak
Date Posted: March 12 2021 at 02:33
If I like it it’s music to me

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Friedrich Nietzsche: "Without music, life would be a mistake."



Music Is Live

Two people are better off than one, for they can help each other succeed.



Keep Calm And Listen To The Music…
<


Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: March 12 2021 at 02:44
Originally posted by geekfreak geekfreak wrote:

If I like it it’s music to me

And that’s what matters. As Lewian suggested, the concept of the death of the author (a bit of Barthes for you all) applies to music. Music is what the listener makes of it, and the listener can create music from anything they hear. It is possible to hear music in the wind. No one composed the music of the wind, but I heard it. Not everyone will agree on what is or isn’t music, but ultimately it doesn’t matter. So long as you enjoy the music you hear, does it really matter if there is someone out there who doesn’t even consider it music?

There’s a difference, I guess,  if they’re attacking you, rather than the music (eg “what do you know about music? You listen to that rap crap!”, as opposed to “I like rock. I don’t listen to any of that rap crap.”) But most of the time, all people are doing is stating the limits of their comfort zone. Perhaps more dismissively and insultingly than is necessary, but that seems to be human nature, because humans can be dickheads. 🤷🏻‍♂️



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https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect


Posted By: Progishness
Date Posted: March 12 2021 at 07:19
Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

How do you define music?


"The arrangement of sounds to create a desired pattern or effect" is my (very) loose definition of music.


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"We're going to need a bigger swear jar."

Chloë Grace Moretz as Mindy McCready aka 'Hit Girl' in Kick-Ass 2


Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: March 12 2021 at 07:38
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

because humans can be dickheads. 🤷🏻‍♂️
Nature and animals can also be dickheads.   


Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: March 12 2021 at 07:45
Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

On the same train of thought, it's important to remember that reactions like this happened before. The same argument of "this new music is all crap" or "this stuff is watered-down non-music" was thrown at most forms of rock and roll during the beginning of its proliferation, and that probably continued among snooty people well into the future, even now. 

It also works both ways. There are plenty of people who (regardless of what kind of hip-hop they listen to) think all rock just sounds like, say, Linkin Park. Now, all of us here would probably say "then you have barely heard anything of rock!" And one would be right. But that's just all that they heard. Many who bemoan rap or hip-hop or trap or etc. probably haven't really investigated that stuff either. It's just a circle of ignorance.

Maybe you have looked into it a bit, and you don't like it. That's fine. Maybe they looked into more kinds of rock and didn't like it. Also fine. There's no need to look down one's nose. Respect doesn't necessitate enjoyment or agreement.

Any genre produces mediocrity once music industry types realize there is money in that genre. Thats what happened to rap, and that is what has happened to different types of rock and RnB over the years.


Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: March 12 2021 at 08:17
Are spoken word music or poetry

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Posted By: Progishness
Date Posted: March 12 2021 at 08:33
Originally posted by Icarium Icarium wrote:

Are spoken word music or poetry


So presumably, 'Fairy Tales' the first Mother Gong album would fall into that category?


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"We're going to need a bigger swear jar."

Chloë Grace Moretz as Mindy McCready aka 'Hit Girl' in Kick-Ass 2


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: March 12 2021 at 09:04
Anybody who says that all hip hop is crap clearly hasn't been exposed to the wide range of what exists these days.

Check these out. Just a really small sampling.

The BLazing Arrow album is best experienced as an album experience. This is just one cool track.


M.I.A. has some intersting stuff


Same with Run The Jewels


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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: March 12 2021 at 09:08
Originally posted by Progishness Progishness wrote:

Originally posted by Icarium Icarium wrote:

Are spoken word music or poetry


So presumably, 'Fairy Tales' the first Mother Gong album would fall into that category?

Or much of Lou Reed’s Raven. Or for that matter, his manner of “singing” on Lulu. Both of those albums, like Metal Machine Music so many years before, received criticism that they weren’t even music. Blatantly untrue, even if the performance at times wasn’t conventionally musical. The thing is, they were just another couple of albums where Reed took some of his fanbase outside their comfort zone.

David Bowie, John Cale, Lou Reed, Frank Zappa - you name it, there are renowned and well-liked musicians who have alienated some of their fanbase at times, by making music in quite different ways and styles. Some less “musical” to some ears - but each of those still music to the ears of others.

Once again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and music is in the mind of the listener. What’s music to one person isn’t to another. And some listeners find it easier to take leaps out of their comfort zones more than others,

(And for anyone who wants to show their appreciation of Reed’s Raven or Lulu, both appear in a poll I made for his last few years:  http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=125586" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=125586  )



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https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect


Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: March 12 2021 at 09:13
Or Leonard Cohan whos carear is based around talk-singing, and is almost earned him a Nobel Literature price.

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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 12 2021 at 09:14
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by Progishness Progishness wrote:

Originally posted by Icarium Icarium wrote:

Are spoken word music or poetry


So presumably, 'Fairy Tales' the first Mother Gong album would fall into that category?

Or much of Lou Reed’s Raven. Or for that matter, his manner of “singing” on Lulu. Both of those albums, like Metal Machine Music so many years before, received criticism that they weren’t even music. Blatantly untrue, even if the performance at times wasn’t conventionally musical. The thing is, they were just another couple of albums where Reed took some of his fanbase outside their comfort zone.

David Bowie, John Cale, Lou Reed, Frank Zappa - you name it, there are renowned and well-liked musicians who have alienated some of their fanbase at times, by making music in quite different ways and styles. Some less “musical” to some ears - but each of those still music to the ears of others.

Once again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and music is in the mind of the listener. What’s music to one person isn’t to another. And some listeners find it easier to take leaps out of their comfort zones more than others,

(And for anyone who wants to show their appreciation of Reed’s Raven or Lulu, both appear in a poll I made for his last few years:  http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=125586" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=125586  )



Metal machine Music
"Well, anyone who gets to side four is dumber than I am." (Lou Reed)


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Posted By: Progishness
Date Posted: March 12 2021 at 10:09
And where would music in general (and prog in particular) be without innovators and experimentation?


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"We're going to need a bigger swear jar."

Chloë Grace Moretz as Mindy McCready aka 'Hit Girl' in Kick-Ass 2


Posted By: Progishness
Date Posted: March 12 2021 at 11:45
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Anybody who says that all hip hop is crap clearly hasn't been exposed to the wide range of what exists these days.


Anyone making a stupid generalisation like that has clearly never heard 'The Score' by the Fugees - a masterpiece of an album regardless of your personal tastes & preferances.


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"We're going to need a bigger swear jar."

Chloë Grace Moretz as Mindy McCready aka 'Hit Girl' in Kick-Ass 2


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 12 2021 at 12:28
One man's noise is another man's symphony. So no.

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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.


Posted By: MortSahlFan
Date Posted: March 12 2021 at 15:24
Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

I don't see how hitting a drum with the same force 10 times and getting the same sound out of it is any different than playing a sample 10 times on a drum machine. They both achieve the same thing. I also believe using pitch correction or tuning, which has been used for several several years can actually be used in really interesting and creative ways to manipulate sound. Also.... I mean.... the mellotron itself is sampling, and that's once again, another technique that goes back years long before hip hop was a thing. If you don't believe Hip Hop is music, and you say that as a big one size fits all statement, you are old, probably white, a embodiment of a certain stereotype (a certain 6 letter b word that last I heard was banned on this site, go figure), and probably don't have enough respect or understanding of music as a whole, let alone that genre and its history, to be commenting on it. Beer


This is the most ignorant comment I've read here. Probably the only one.

I'm not white, I'm not old, I've been a professional musician since the age of 17.

Your comments are not only incorrect and ignorant, but it seems I hit a sore spot with you, so you resort to the trendy sh*t. Maybe you're mad because you can't play an instrument.

Later,  you racist stereotype.


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https://www.youtube.com/c/LoyalOpposition

https://www.scribd.com/document/382737647/MortSahlFan-Song-List


Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: March 12 2021 at 15:34
Originally posted by MortSahlFan MortSahlFan wrote:

Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

I don't see how hitting a drum with the same force 10 times and getting the same sound out of it is any different than playing a sample 10 times on a drum machine. They both achieve the same thing. I also believe using pitch correction or tuning, which has been used for several several years can actually be used in really interesting and creative ways to manipulate sound. Also.... I mean.... the mellotron itself is sampling, and that's once again, another technique that goes back years long before hip hop was a thing. If you don't believe Hip Hop is music, and you say that as a big one size fits all statement, you are old, probably white, a embodiment of a certain stereotype (a certain 6 letter b word that last I heard was banned on this site, go figure), and probably don't have enough respect or understanding of music as a whole, let alone that genre and its history, to be commenting on it. Beer


This is the most ignorant comment I've read here. Probably the only one.

I'm not white, I'm not old, I've been a professional musician since the age of 17.

Your comments are not only incorrect and ignorant, but it seems I hit a sore spot with you, so you resort to the trendy sh*t. Maybe you're mad because you can't play an instrument.

Later, stereotype.

I’ve refrained from replying to the posts I’ve seen from you so far, because while they are ignorant and narrow-minded, they have not been personal. Insulting Doug in this way is not on. The only sore spot that appears to have been hit is your own, and you clearly haven’t been paying much attention to the forum if you’re unaware of Doug’s musical knowledge and ability.

By all means, stick to your comfort zone, and insult music you don’t like as much as you like - but don’t make it personal. Doug was suggesting that most people who suggest some genres of music live up to a stereotype, which he described, but included the word probably.

Age is relative anyway, so perhaps you are old in Doug’s eye? And just because you are a professional musician doesn’t mean your views are correct, and that Doug’s are incorrect, you clearly have a difference of opinion, but there is no objective way to say his views are wrong and yours are right.



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https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 12 2021 at 19:27
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by MortSahlFan MortSahlFan wrote:

Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

I don't see how hitting a drum with the same force 10 times and getting the same sound out of it is any different than playing a sample 10 times on a drum machine. They both achieve the same thing. I also believe using pitch correction or tuning, which has been used for several several years can actually be used in really interesting and creative ways to manipulate sound. Also.... I mean.... the mellotron itself is sampling, and that's once again, another technique that goes back years long before hip hop was a thing. If you don't believe Hip Hop is music, and you say that as a big one size fits all statement, you are old, probably white, a embodiment of a certain stereotype (a certain 6 letter b word that last I heard was banned on this site, go figure), and probably don't have enough respect or understanding of music as a whole, let alone that genre and its history, to be commenting on it. Beer


This is the most ignorant comment I've read here. Probably the only one.

I'm not white, I'm not old, I've been a professional musician since the age of 17.

Your comments are not only incorrect and ignorant, but it seems I hit a sore spot with you, so you resort to the trendy sh*t. Maybe you're mad because you can't play an instrument.

Later, stereotype.

I’ve refrained from replying to the posts I’ve seen from you so far, because while they are ignorant and narrow-minded, they have not been personal. Insulting Doug in this way is not on. The only sore spot that appears to have been hit is your own, and you clearly haven’t been paying much attention to the forum if you’re unaware of Doug’s musical knowledge and ability.

By all means, stick to your comfort zone, and insult music you don’t like as much as you like - but don’t make it personal. Doug was suggesting that most people who suggest some genres of music live up to a stereotype, which he described, but included the word probably.

Age is relative anyway, so perhaps you are old in Doug’s eye? And just because you are a professional musician doesn’t mean your views are correct, and that Doug’s are incorrect, you clearly have a difference of opinion, but there is no objective way to say his views are wrong and yours are right.


Er, well,. there is surely no need to indulge in "you're racist" the moment somebody says he think hip hop is crap.  Is that really such a big deal?  I could point to a hundred different music genres/sub genres that metalheads used to routinely dub as crap.  It may be unpleasant to be highly opinionated but it's not a crime.  

And again, this reflexively presuming racism when someone bashes hip hop is an American thing. While hip hop has universal following, it isn't nearly as popular in many other parts of the world as in America so that strong correlation that seems to naturally come to say doug's mind doesn't occur to many of us.  We don't necessarily think of hip hop as a proxy for a black sub culture (and it's no longer anyway, I mean, Eminem, Machine Gun Kelly); it's just another kind of music and one that still polarizes opinions because of its inherent design.  It will take a couple more generations of ubiquity before hip hop as a very normal idea of music comes to be. 


Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: March 12 2021 at 19:50
^ I didn't call him racist anywhere in that comment though.... as a matter of fact, he edited his comment to call me racist Wacko

The stereotype I was referring to was the old bud light guzzling 55+ white guy who takes to facebook on the regular to preach about snowflake millennials and how they just don't make music like they used to as he turns on Close to the Edge for the 6th time this week.... there's a wine mom equivalent. But there's no motive to put down any race in my comment or suggest that the other user is racist, at the end of the day, there's only really one demographic of people who regularly go out of their way to completely write off Hip Hop and call it "not music." 

I think I pointed out in another comment some of the implications that one might presume by hearing someone say "hip hop is not music," wether intended or not. The thing is, hip hop really is a proxy for black culture and there's no denying that's where the real meat of the genre comes from. While Eminem and MGK have had big  success in the genre, they don't represent the overwhelming bigger picture, much of the most influential and archetype hip hop records stem from an expression of issues and prejudices faced by the African American community, and that's why I say making those bigoted comments carry some pretty nasty undertones to them.

Even the grammys came under fire for compartmentalizing and segregating certain African American fronted music into a category called "urban contemporary music" that could easily just fall into the pop or RnB category. I struggle to see how recognizing that hip hop is a very predominantly black-led art is an American thing, it seems pretty universal to me. 


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The sun has left the sky...
...Now you can close your eyes


Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: March 12 2021 at 20:02
I like both hip hop and prog.
Both genres can have good and bad music.

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“On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.”
— Ernest Vong


Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: March 12 2021 at 20:06
Originally posted by MortSahlFan MortSahlFan wrote:

Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

I don't see how hitting a drum with the same force 10 times and getting the same sound out of it is any different than playing a sample 10 times on a drum machine. They both achieve the same thing. I also believe using pitch correction or tuning, which has been used for several several years can actually be used in really interesting and creative ways to manipulate sound. Also.... I mean.... the mellotron itself is sampling, and that's once again, another technique that goes back years long before hip hop was a thing. If you don't believe Hip Hop is music, and you say that as a big one size fits all statement, you are old, probably white, a embodiment of a certain stereotype (a certain 6 letter b word that last I heard was banned on this site, go figure), and probably don't have enough respect or understanding of music as a whole, let alone that genre and its history, to be commenting on it. Beer


This is the most ignorant comment I've read here. Probably the only one.

I'm not white, I'm not old, I've been a professional musician since the age of 17.

Your comments are not only incorrect and ignorant, but it seems I hit a sore spot with you, so you resort to the trendy sh*t. Maybe you're mad because you can't play an instrument.

Later,  you racist stereotype.

"This is the most ignorant comment i've read here"

The irony

"I'm not white, I'm not old, I've been a professional musician since the age of 17."

You just made a bizarre unhinged post earlier about how you haven't left your house in months, as if i'm going to believe you've been making a sustainable living, in other words: a professional, musician since you were a teenager.

"Your comments are not only incorrect and ignorant, but it seems I hit a sore spot with you, so you resort to the trendy sh*t. Maybe you're mad because you can't play an instrument."

I mean, I can play an instrument, I don't have to prove that to you but that is, as a matter of fact, what I go to school for. So in other words, that is "incorrect and ignorant." What trendy s**t?

Later,  you racist stereotype.

Man, if not being narrow minded and blissfully intolerant towards entire subcultures and genres of music is all it takes to be a racist stereotype, than I am a racist stereotype Smile


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The sun has left the sky...
...Now you can close your eyes


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 12 2021 at 21:17
Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

there's only really one demographic of people who regularly go out of their way to completely write off Hip Hop and call it "not music." 

This is what I am talking about.  A lot of people who don't like hip hop aren't white and may not even be old.  You're going to have deal with it.  Not everyone knows about the origins of hip hop either; again, to many people it's just music ('or not music music' according to them).  For the last time, a lot of these connections that may be obvious from an American perspective are not to many from the rest of the world. I know but only because I hang out a lot in places like this. The first hip hop based song I heard wasn't even one by an African American musician.  It was a composition of A R Rahman from back in the 90s.  

People can be nasty when they express their dislike of certain music; all nastiness isn't bigoted.  An idiot metalhead acquaintance of mine was once nasty to me because I shared a ghazal on FB.  But...I don't operate with these cultural or sub cultural boundaries that he seemed to so for me, it wasn't 'weird' to like both metal and ghazals (and numerous other genres). No, he wasn't being racist, just stupid which is par for the course in metal world.


Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: March 13 2021 at 01:13
The only person who has brought race and/or racism into the equation is MortSahlFan. Nothing Doug said was even remotely racist - unless someone chooses to take it that way. And while I agree that not all nastiness is bigoted, sometime it is, but just isn’t as immediately apparent. 

Much of the reaction against hip hop (or urban) music is because it is considered “black music”. It doesn’t matter if there is the odd exception like Eminem. In fact, in some ways that makes it worse. I have known a lot of people who say they hate hip hop, but they like Eminem.  I have friends for whom the only hip hop they own is Eminem. Em once famously declared he was the Elvis Presley of rap. Only, he hasn’t really been, because while Elvis made black music palatable for a white audience, white hip hop artists remain the minority. Almost every popular form of music in the Western world - rock, blues, jazz, etc. - has come from black music that has been assimilated and accepted into what white audiences are comfortable with. Hip hop remains a predominately black music, and resistant to gentrification.


But if we are going to bring racism into the equation, then music as the Western world views it tends to be racist. The way music that is not white or Western enough is labelled urban or world, when there is often no need for that. I wrote an article for The Progressive Aspecf last year, on 11 June, which was designated as #SpeakUpThursday and a day to “Use Your Platform” to express how you feel about how racism in music still exists today. I concentrated on “world music” because much of what I listen to is described as world music - even though it could easily be called rock, pop, jazz, folk, hip hop, soul, etc.


—-//—-


Systemic and inherent racism are being widely spoken about, if not always widely understood, topics at present. It might seem that music is above all that, but while by no means all who make the music, promote the music, or listen to the music are racist, there has long been an air of cultural superiority when it comes to Western music. Classical music exists throughout the world, but it tends to be white European classical music that is most exalted. Nowhere, though, is this sense of cultural superiority more obvious than when the term “world music” is used. 


It’s now about 30 years since the concept was created, I’d like to think with the best intentions, but the idea of world music was never a good one then. And certainly not now. Thankfully, more and more people are coming to recognise that world music is an outdated and increasingly offensive term. Artists from Western countries tend not to get stuck in the world section – just those that don’t speak English or come from “exotic” parts of the world.

It can come across, intentionally or otherwise, that the only music that “matters” is that which white musicians have co-opted and made popular throughout the western world. Thus a black musician can play jazz, blues, or rock with relative impunity, but anything outside this white comfort zone is too often relegated to the musical ghetto of world music. Music should be unprejudiced, and all mu-sic should be world music. 


I have fallen into this trap myself recently, when I relegated Josh Feinberg’s recent album to an A Different Aspect article, stating that as much as I love it (and I do), it wasn’t really progressive. I was pulled up on this, and rightly so. “In many ways it is more progressive than a lot of prog – the polyrhythms, shifting sub-divisions, pushing and pulling of time,” I was told. I foolishly responded, thinking I was justifying myself, when I was really showing my own ignorance,that while there is no denying the complexities and intricacies of Eastern music over Western, and the use of microtones, and polyrhythms, those are standard for the style of music. Josh Feinberg is amazing, I said, but he didn’t appear to me to be doing anything to take the music out of the Hindustani framework (i.e., to make it progressive). It’s the same with a lot of things from the East. You could make the same argument for Carnatic and Gamelan, I suggested. Both are again complex and intricate, I imagine you might call them progressive, but for me, they are what they are, and it is what someone does with them that makes them progressive.


But here’s the kicker, I guess. And I really should know better. Although I had the best intentions, I was letting my ignorance shine through. I am not racist, and I’d like to think most people who follow The Progressive Aspect are not racist also, but it’s important to recognise our limitations. I might well enjoy a lot of non-Western music (and I do), but I clearly don’t know enough about it, or listen to enough variety, to know just what is progressive. It has now been pointed out to me that within Indian Classical there are ‘traditionalists’, and then there are ‘progressives’ – and that Josh Feinberg is definitely in the progressive camp. I was pointed toward another example of a ‘progressive’, as opposed to a ‘traditionalist’, Shahid Parvez Khan, who “really, really pushes polyrhythms and polymetrics, weird mathy subdivisions and changes. When I saw him live, there were parts where he was mimicking a delay pedal. He’s absolutely a progressive artist in the genre.” 


The point is, even those of us who are well aware of the prejudices in our society, and who are anti-racism, can still fall fowl of the cultural superiority that the labelling of Western music, as opposed to “world” music creates. “World” effectively means “the rest of the world that is not familiar enough, or white enough, for us to conveniently place into genres it might otherwise fall into, if we gave it more thought”. While there will always be exceptions, the vast majority of “world” music could fall into the same broad categories we use for Western music (for example, rock, folk, jazz, soul or hip hop). That they are not, is a sign that we are still not as free of prejudice as we might like 


I have recently consigned a review of Eishan Ensemble’s latest album to the bin, and am in the process of re-writing it, because ultimately it is a progressive jazz album (and a very good one). Why limit the potential audience of a good piece of music by affixing the word “world”? Admittedly, I did not, because I have long found that a troublesome term; but even without calling Eishan Ensemble’s music “world”, I was still framing it in a way that was unfair. This happens more often than you might think. Bands and artists that hail from non-Western countries, no matter if they play music that would be “accepted” by Western listeners, are unfairly given the label “world music”. Even if a musician moves to a Western country their origin is unfairly shackled to them. A quick google reveals two such artists: a Nigerian soul singer who moved to Germany, but whose music (despite her entreaties) is still sold as “world music” rather than soul; and a rapper from the Congo, now residing in Belgium, who would rather his music was sold as “hip hop”, but finds it still handicapped by the “world music” label. 


As an example of how ingrained the sense of cultural superiority is within music, I have no doubt whatsoever, that if Vodun were a band hailing from West Africa, their albums would have ended up lost in the world music section. Rather than being one of “our” bands, using West African rhythms, they would be seen as a West African band, fusing their traditional music within a Western framework. That Vodun are not considered world music merely underlines how wrong it is to use the label at all, and how essentially arbitrarily it is used. To reiterate, because I can’t make this point enough, I’m almost 100% convinced it is because Vodun are a “British” band, or else they, too, would be a “world music” band.


If we, as listeners of music, want to be as progressive as the music we like to listen to, we need to start questioning some of the norms within the music industry. A friend of mine recently suggested that even a label as seemingly innocuous as “folk” can also have connotations of cultural superiority. As she pointed out, the Westernised homogeneity people assume from the label is completely counter to the so many different traditions and cultures it should span. Much “world music” is folk music, yet you won’t find it in the folk section of your local record store. And this is true for most labels, starting all the way back with classical. The labels we use instantly “favour” or evoke Western modes. Classical music includes the Indian Classical music I mentioned earlier, as Carnatic and Hindustani are just two extremely vast catalogues of music not usually thought of when someone talks of classical music. 


It’s perhaps also worth calling out cultural appropriation, as there are definitely times when non-Western instruments (and stereotypically, the sitar) are used for effect, without real context. I listen to plenty of white and/or Western artists who use Eastern instruments or instrumentation, but they don’t do it for effect. That’s absolutely fine. It’s when it’s used just to dress up a piece of music or add a little colour, that I find it grating. It’s like the musical equivalent of black face. But while black face is now universally reviled and recognised as being offensive, it’s musical equivalent does not (yet?) draw such ire or condemnation. But I love it when someone shows a real passion for learning about the instrument and history of music played with it. Charlie Cawood and Lachlan Dale are two great examples of this.


Concluding this article is not easy, as it is hard to neatly wrap things up when there is still so much misunderstanding (some wilful, and much unintentional) regarding systemic and inherent racism. There are many people out there who are anti-racist, but due to their white privilege overlook the more subtle aspects of cultural superiority within society. There is always opportunity for learning and recognition of what could be changed for the better. I have long railed against the term world music, but still stumbled into unintentional prejudice (due to ignorance) when writing about Josh Feinberg’s album. What you take from this article is up to you. It’s up to all of us.



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https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 13 2021 at 01:51
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

The only person who has brought race and/or racism into the equation is MortSahlFan. Nothing Doug said was even remotely racist - unless someone chooses to take it that way. And while I agree that not all nastiness is bigoted, sometime it is, but just isn’t as immediately apparent.

When someone says it's one demographic that has this opinion of hip hop, it's very clear what that refers to unless we want to suddenly get very specific about words (when MortSahlFan never said a single racist thing against black people and only assailed hip hop).  I hope you can see the contradiction in your logic but if you can't, *shrug*
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

 Hip hop remains a predominately black music, and resistant to gentrification.

I have heard progressive Italian hip hop and for the last few years Punjabi hip hop has caught on in India.  So I don't agree.  But again, believe whatever you wish because the strength of your beliefs are clear from the portion I am going to quote...

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

But if we are going to bring racism into the equation, then music as the Western world views it tends to be racist. The way music that is not white or Western enough is labelled urban or world, when there is often no need for that. .


No! No! No!  It is just a convenience, that's all.  What do you think we in India call music from America, UK, Italy, et al, all put together?  We just call it Western music.  We don't try to get specific with subcultural classification except when we are talking about one specific genre alone.  And basically anything outside India is non-Indian music even though the whole wide world is much bigger than India.  Anything from the northern part of India is called north Indian by people living in the Southern part of India and vice versa even though both regions have multiple linguistic communities.

There is no difference between that and what you're talking about. Of course anything from outside the Western world is called world music; that's not racist, that's just classification. Besides, blues and jazz are/were also dominated by black people and nobody today says they are 'not Western'.  

I already laid out why hip hop is revolutionary and why therefore it triggers strong reactions. The bad thing about this is it is so unpleasant but the good thing is it is the only music left that still challenges our views about what can be possible in music.  The attacks are par for the course.  Nobody attacks rock because rock is essentially dead as a dodo while a few great musicians try to keep the corpse alive.  Hip hop is alive, well and thriving. 

Yes, some of the people who attack hip hop, like Ben Shapiro, clearly do so from a racist perspective.  But to presume a racist or bigoted intent the moment somebody attacks hip hop is nearly as bad as holding racist beliefs about hip hop itself. And that is my only point in this discussion.  Do NOT become what you're fighting against.  You can't just jump to make presumptions about a person's identity based on his views about one music genre and then try to defend yourself with word salad.  No, it was wrong to make that presumption in the first place.  Oh but you are not going to admit it, you will keep justifying your and doug's position.  I know how it goes. 


Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: March 13 2021 at 02:21
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

The only person who has brought race and/or racism into the equation is MortSahlFan. Nothing Doug said was even remotely racist - unless someone chooses to take it that way. And while I agree that not all nastiness is bigoted, sometime it is, but just isn’t as immediately apparent.

When someone says it's one demographic that has this opinion of hip hop, it's very clear what that refers to unless we want to suddenly get very specific about words (when MortSahlFan never said a single racist thing against black people and only assailed hip hop).  I hope you can see the contradiction in your logic but if you can't, *shrug*

I can see why you believe there is a contradiction in my logic, but you’re right that I don’t agree. Part of that, though, is that I think we inherently agree. MortSahlFan never said a single racist thing, but he did edit his post to call someone else racist. While I personally wouldn’t have brought race into the equation, the way Doug did, it was apparent to me (though this is inference, rather than implication) that he was drawing a stereotype - which is by no means the same as stating that all people act that way. Stereotypes are exaggerated, and can show prejudice in a deliberately ironic way. This was, I assume Doug’s intent. The reason I wouldn’t have done the same, is because it can be too easily misconstrued - which is what I think has happened here.

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

 Hip hop remains a predominately black music, and resistant to gentrification.

I have heard progressive Italian hip hop and for the last few years Punjabi hip hop has caught on in India.  So I don't agree.  But again, believe whatever you wish because the strength of your beliefs are clear from the portion I am going to quote...

Sorry, this is my mistake. I missed off some words that I thought were implicit there. Perhaps this will make it clearer what I meant. Perhaps not.

Hip Hop remains a predominantly black music for much of the white Western world, and resistant to gentrification.

I come from NZ, where very little is black and white. In fact, one famous NZ hip hop star rapped “I’m not black, I’m brown.” Hip hop is definitely not seen as black music in NZ, and is embraced by people of all colours, and performed by people of all colours. I too, have listened to rap from around the world, and from people of different races. I am not stating that I think hip hop is black music, because I don’t think that.

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

But if we are going to bring racism into the equation, then music as the Western world views it tends to be racist. The way music that is not white or Western enough is labelled urban or world, when there is often no need for that. .


No! No! No!  It is just a convenience, that's all.  What do you think we in India call music from America, UK, Italy, et al, all put together?  We just call it Western music.

Two wrongs don’t make a right. I fail to see what point you are making. That convenience you speak of is the inherent racism I speak of. Bizarrely every point you then go on to make, are exactly the same points I made myself. I suspect we actually agree on almost everything - perhaps even everything - but somewhere things have become confused along the way. It is likely to be more my fault than yours, as I have a history of not being able to make myself understood in the way I intend.

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Yes, some of the people who attack hip hop, like Ben Shapiro, clearly do so from a racist perspective.  But to presume a racist or bigoted intent the moment somebody attacks hip hop is nearly as bad as holding racist beliefs about hip hop itself. And that is my only point in this discussion.  Do NOT become what you're fighting against.  You can't just jump to make presumptions about a person's identity based on his views about one music genre and then try to defend yourself with word salad.  No, it was wrong to make that presumption in the first place.  Oh but you are not going to admit it, you will keep justifying your and doug's position.  I know how it goes. 

I didn’t make that presumption. Perhaps Doug did, but from the way I read his post, he didn’t either. I definitely do not believe, and have never espoused, that the only reason - or even the usual reason - for not liking hip hop is racial. Of course it’s not. I would very much like to think that racism is the least likely reason for not liking hip hop.

I took Doug’s post to mean that he was suggesting that on this forum (not globally) that many of the people who show disdain for hip hop might fit the Ben Shapiro stereotype. That doesn’t mean he thinks everyone who doesn’t like hip hop fits the stereotype. It’s ironic, because I think you have jumped to presume things about me and Doug, in the way you think we have jumped to presumptions. Admittedly, I can’t speak for Doug - because I really don’t know what he thinks, or what he meant. I inferred from his words a meaning that was not racist. Perhaps I was wrong to do so. I infer from your words that you are making arguments no different to my own, and that everything you say is something I agree with. I suspect we are all singing from the same hymn sheet - but are merely misinterpreting each other’s words.

When I initially spoke up, it was only because ModtSahlFan became personal. I have no problem with people being nasty about a genre, but they don’t need to make it personal. I assume at this point (here we go with presumptions again, sorry) that you will suggest that Doug made it personal first. But pointing out a stereotype is not making something personal - and particularly when it is not directed at any one individual.

Yes, nastiness exists, and no, that nastiness is rarely as racist as some might believe. But nastiness is nastiness, regardless of racism. Why be nasty at all? 🤷🏻‍♂️



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https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect


Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 13 2021 at 04:28
Originally posted by Progishness Progishness wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Anybody who says that all hip hop is crap clearly hasn't been exposed to the wide range of what exists these days.


Anyone making a stupid generalisation like that has clearly never heard 'The Score' by the Fugees - a masterpiece of an album regardless of your personal tastes & preferances.


You seem to be conflating your opinions with facts. With arrogance like that you really should be levitating in front of us LOL


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Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: March 13 2021 at 05:35
Yeah rogerthat you’re misinterpreting my comment and Nick pretty much has it right with the Ben Shapiro stereotype comparison. Calling someone racist for not liking hip hop is sh*tty, and that was not my goal. What I’m saying is that when you start using the same arguments that Ben Shapiro uses, someone who very likely does argue from a very disingenuous place, people might assume that of you. If you’re referring to me particularly saying “old and white,” that might not be a particularly comfortable way to say it, but 99% of the people I’ve ever heard who flat out say hip hop just straight up isn’t music, fit into two categories: the out of touch classic rock radio crowd who really don’t have any sort of grasp on the genre or musicality behind it, or 13 year olds who just discovered Led Zeppelin. But the main idea here is that arguing that hip hop isn’t music is a cartoonishly dated belief and I said it in an earlier comment, I would be so happy and satisfied just to hear some sort of in between of something along the lines of “I’ve never liked the genre, but I’m willing to go in with an open mind and try out a few songs. If it’s not for me that’s okay but I understand the appeal.” I’d be totally cool with that, no questions asked, but instead people would rather die on a hill that leaves a sour taste in everyone’s mouth.

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The sun has left the sky...
...Now you can close your eyes


Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: March 13 2021 at 05:56
I don't get why people get personal about other people because they have a different taste. It's fair enough to discuss whether it has to do with race that some people dismiss hip hop, but everybody has a right to dislike it and say it, and if you're going to stereotype people based on that, there's gotta be reactions. 


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: March 13 2021 at 06:23
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by Progishness Progishness wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Anybody who says that all hip hop is crap clearly hasn't been exposed to the wide range of what exists these days.


Anyone making a stupid generalisation like that has clearly never heard 'The Score' by the Fugees - a masterpiece of an album regardless of your personal tastes & preferances.


You seem to be conflating your opinions with facts. With arrogance like that you really should be levitating in front of us LOL


Not at all. The consensus of MANY is that hip hop is NOT MUSIC including on this thread. I'm merely demonstrating that there is a lot of hip hop that is clearly music based on the dictionary definition of music. Many misconstrue the term RAP (which is a lyrical delivery style, not the genre itself) with HIP HOP which is based on funk and has grown to incorporate different styles of music around it. Whether anybody likes those songs i shared is NOT THE POINT. The point WAS and REMAINS that they cannot deny that those samples are indeed MUSIC.


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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: March 13 2021 at 06:25
^ true that i should've worded it better when i posted that Wink


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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: March 13 2021 at 06:42
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Many misconstrue the term RAP (which is a lyrical delivery style, not the genre itself) with HIP HOP which is based on funk and has grown to incorporate different styles of music around it. Whether anybody likes those songs i shared is NOT THE POINT. The point WAS and REMAINS that they cannot deny that those samples are indeed MUSIC.

This is something that is probably the most misunderstood about hip hop. Hip hop doesn't actually require rap at all to be hip hop. And two of the "four corners" of hip are not necessarily musical. Hip hop is generally acknowledged to include MC'ing (rapping), DJ'ing, Breaking (breakdancing), and Graf (graffiti art). It is possible to emcee without music (though the rapping itself might still be considered musical). It is possible to break without music. It is possible to graf without music. So, in a way, it would be possible to argue that hip hop is not music - or, at least, not entirely so. But it kind of misses the point.

Hip hop music, is definitely music. It might not be a music you understand and/or enjoy, but that's about it.

You hardly ever see it these days, but I remember when rap first started to really hit the charts, a lot of the artists still tended to preface their names with what they did (so MC this, and DJ that). That trend seems to have died away somewhat, as people have become more aware of hip hop culture.

It is easy to dismiss that which you don't enjoy. I don't have a problem with anyone dismissing hip hop. I don't like when people make it personal. I don't like everything that my friends and family listen to, and they don't like everything I listen to. But it's never a bone of contention, because we respect each other. It sometimes that seems the relative anonymity the internet affords us, tends to make some people respect others less.

By all means, let's discuss whether something is or isn't music - or even, what is music, because if we can't even agree with what music is, we can never really agree about what is or isn't music.

By all means, let's discuss whether not liking something can have a basis in racism, but let's never assume that is always the case.

The golden rule in my family growing up, and the one I have in my house now I have children of my own, is that if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all. That doesn't mean we can't have discussion or debate, and it doesn't mean we can't cover controversial topics - but we can be civil, polite and respectful.



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https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 13 2021 at 08:50
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

I don't get why people get personal about other people because they have a different taste. It's fair enough to discuss whether it has to do with race that some people dismiss hip hop, but everybody has a right to dislike it and say it, and if you're going to stereotype people based on that, there's gotta be reactions. 
Thank you. I have said this once, twice, thrice to Doug and he doesn't get it. So I give up. No, there are vastly more people than just white boomers and teenage kids who diss hip hop. If Doug hasn't met them doesn't mean they don't exist.


Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 13 2021 at 08:55
^ erm, you mean don't exist right?


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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 13 2021 at 08:58
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

^ erm, you mean don't exist right?


Sorry. Yes indeed. Will make the correction.


Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 13 2021 at 09:31
Say it loud: I'm an unrepentant old white boomer and loving a huge variety of music from all cultures across the globe. (I'm NOT a conservative but I don't think Ben Shapiro is even remotely a dick for being clueless about music) It always seems rather predictable that these types of threads invariably degenerate into how polarising Hip Hop and Rap erm ...'spoken word music' is for the Prog community. As soon as someone plays the race card there is no coming back to any semblance of decorum. Dead I'm sure none of us would deny the musicality and improvisational ability of the beat poets reciting their verse against be bop Jazz in the 50's and 60's e.g Jack Kerouac (with Al Cohn and Zoot Sims) Kenneth Patchen (with the Chamber Jazz Sextet) and Gil Scott Heron's early albums in the 70's etc. Their modern equivalents and influence can be found in the likes of: A Tribe called Quest, Digable Planets, De La Soul and the Jungle Brothers et al. Seeing as how the PA crew are ripe suckers for complexity and 'odd time signatures' y'all, this is an example of truly progressive spoken word music that has very few peers even in the Prog realm:

Story 2 by Clipping broken down by Yogev Gabay (his You Tube channel has numerous other examples of metric and rhythmic innovation from Metal, Rock, Prog, Hip Hop, Rap, Pop, Funk, Soul (the list goes on)









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Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: March 13 2021 at 09:31
I'm having trouble trying to find more and more different ways to say the point i'm trying to get across Ermm. It's not about saying "I don't like hip hop," that's perfectly fine, not once throughout this thread have I trashed someone for simply not liking the style of music. It's when people say "hip hop is not music," that I start getting up in arms because it's not longer a matter of opinion, it's just incorrect and ignorant at that point. Like I said, I don't how many other ways I can convey this thought.

If your take away from my last comment was "Doug thinks only white boomers and teenagers don't like hip hop," you might want to read it again. I'm saying those two parties more than any other tend to sh*t out those sentiments. I'm saying to these people, don't back yourself into a corner and an unpleasant stereotype. Rather, be the cool old dude with the tie dye shirt who has a broad respect for art.


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The sun has left the sky...
...Now you can close your eyes


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 13 2021 at 09:47
Originally posted by Progishness Progishness wrote:

And where would music in general (and prog in particular) be without innovators and experimentation?

Hi,

Regardless of what kind of music, this is where it gets in trouble, for a definition. For example ... on one of the BBC specials on "krautrock", one of the members of FAUST, sets out to show "music" and he takes some sticks and goes to hit a couple of cement mixers!

The "raw content", on its own, I do not think it "fits" as a description of "music" ... but when combined with something else, and likely having a bunch of knobs change it some, then it becomes something that we consider "music".

Rap, for me is not the issue ... the only thing that is sad is the consideration that the drum machine sound, ON ITS OWN is considered an instrument, which then combined with the voice makes it "music" ... and I think this is something that likely should not be considered "music" ... but then, commercial interests love to feed the public "stuff" that makes money, and it is pretty obvious that rap/hip-hop makes a pretty good amount of money ... and at least, we're not seeing those folks complain about that their sales have dropped so much .... etc, etc, etc ... if anything they stand to gain even more if the "record company" is out of the way!

I think that experimental "music" is too new for a proper definition and discussion ... I think that in another 20 to 30 years, things will likely change as the "new-ness" that rap and hip-hop offer will have fallen off some, and then something else comes along ... and all those people calling themselves "composers" and all they do is set a drum machine ... will probably not be appreciated so readily as they are now! Somewhere along the way, the words are not enough to carry you, and the "music" under it is not sustainable except on repeat!


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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: Erenan
Date Posted: March 13 2021 at 15:08
I think hitting cement mixers with sticks is music but calling something music isn't some kind of merit badge. There is no value claim inherent in that. It's surely not a masterpiece to go 1 2 3 4 on a cement mixer. And I think the important thing is whether there is something of value there. Whether there's value I think is at least partly subjective, though of course some kinds of music are going to be more successful at producing positive value for the largest number of listeners than other kinds. I will add to that, though, that there are people on the fringes of the bell curve for whom the most valuable music just might be what most people think is garbage. And I think that's okay.


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https://lukesimpsonmusic.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 13 2021 at 19:01
Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

I'm having trouble trying to find more and more different ways to say the point i'm trying to get across Ermm.

You're having trouble because you don't want to hold yourself to account for your words while you build up a gigantic stereotype out of someone simply saying hip hop is not music.  Now if you want to be so obdurate about it, so can I be so here we go...
Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

I
If your take away from my last comment was "Doug thinks only white boomers and teenagers don't like hip hop," you might want to read it again.

I hope you know what 99% means.  Because you used that word in your post.
Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

f you’re referring to me particularly saying “old and white,” that might not be a particularly comfortable way to say it, but 99% of the people I’ve ever heard who flat out say hip hop just straight up isn’t music, fit into two categories: the out of touch classic rock radio crowd who really don’t have any sort of grasp on the genre or musicality behind it, or 13 year olds who just discovered Led Zeppelin.

I will add that this is an amendment to your earlier more ambitious proposition which was...
Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

If you don't believe Hip Hop is music, and you say that as a big one size fits all statement, you are old, probably white, a embodiment of a certain stereotype (a certain 6 letter b word that last I heard was banned on this site, go figure)

So you assume the race, age and character of a person all out of one thing and you expect us to rush to your defence for it?  Exactly who's dying on what hill here?  Yes, it's rude and unpleasant to say a particular genre is not music but that does not entitle you to stereotype that person, worse still to slot them into a particular racial demographic and refuse to believe them when they tell you they aren't white or old.

No, the problem is you overstepped the line in your attempt to defend prog.  And then, having stereotyped MortSahlFan you complain about him personally attacking you.  What, did you expect him to just roll over and say yessir?

So...

Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:


 I'm saying to these people, don't back yourself into a corner and an unpleasant stereotype. Rather, be the cool old dude with the tie dye shirt who has a broad respect for art.

That's their choice and it doesn't entitle you to personally attack them.  Please, white people speaking respectfully about hip hop is not going to make black people's problems go away.  So stop making such a big deal out of it where you assume that somebody saying hip hop is not music is an old white (possibly racist) bas****.  Yeah, you didn't flat out call him a racist but that's where you were going.  If dog whistles are poor form for conservatives, they should be for liberals too.  You don't get a special licence to indulge in dog whistles because you are saving the world from evil.


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 13 2021 at 19:06
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Say it loud: I'm an unrepentant old white boomer and loving a huge variety of music from all cultures across the globe. (I'm NOT a conservative but I don't think Ben Shapiro is even remotely a dick for being clueless about music) It always seems rather predictable that these types of threads invariably degenerate into how polarising Hip Hop and Rap erm ...'spoken word music' is for the Prog community. As soon as someone plays the race card there is no coming back to any semblance of decorum. Dead I'm sure none of us would deny the musicality and improvisational ability of the beat poets reciting their verse against be bop Jazz in the 50's and 60's e.g Jack Kerouac (with Al Cohn and Zoot Sims) Kenneth Patchen (with the Chamber Jazz Sextet) and Gil Scott Heron's early albums in the 70's etc. Their modern equivalents and influence can be found in the likes of: A Tribe called Quest, Digable Planets, De La Soul and the Jungle Brothers et al. Seeing as how the PA crew are ripe suckers for complexity and 'odd time signatures' y'all, this is an example of truly progressive spoken word music that has very few peers even in the Prog realm:

Story 2 by Clipping broken down by Yogev Gabay (his You Tube channel has numerous other examples of metric and rhythmic innovation from Metal, Rock, Prog, Hip Hop, Rap, Pop, Funk, Soul (the list goes on)




I am not even that much into poetry but I love Tribe Called Quest for exactly the combination of jazz with awesome syncopated grooves. 


Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 00:04
I'm going to be honest AF: the fact that this thread exists, and the very idea has been entertained either directly or indirectly, is further proof this forum is probably done.

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"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021


Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 00:54
Ok, I’m just convinced at this point you’re going out of your way to misunderstand me, move the goalposts and put words in my mouth that just are not there. I’m not going walk back what I said because I know what I mean, you evidently don’t, you’re reading way to deep into something that just isn’t there. Why are the words liberal and conservative even coming up? It kinda tells me what angle you’re actually coming from and why the mere mention of the word “white” has you breaking down and hyper analyzing every word I say, and every word I don’t say....

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The sun has left the sky...
...Now you can close your eyes


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 01:45
Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

I’m not going walk back what I said because I know what I mean, you evidently don’t, you’re reading way to deep into something that just isn’t there. Why are the words liberal and conservative even coming up? It kinda tells me what angle you’re actually coming from and why the mere mention of the word “white” has you breaking down and hyper analyzing every word I say, and every word I don’t say....


No, you don't know what you mean because he said he is not white and you would rather pretend he is lying than accept you are wrong. That speaks volumes about YOU and how ideological you are about something as mundane as bashing music.


Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 03:46
There he goes putting words in my mouth again. Only one person in this thread called anybody racist, and it's the guy you're defending Confused  i've said all these words in my comments, gone deep into what i'm arguing against and you're still stuck on the word "white." Of everything i've said over the several pages here, that really should not be your main takeaway.

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The sun has left the sky...
...Now you can close your eyes


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 04:53
Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

There he goes putting words in my mouth again. Only one person in this thread called anybody racist, and it's the guy you're defending Confused  i've said all these words in my comments, gone deep into what i'm arguing against and you're still stuck on the word "white." Of everything i've said over the several pages here, that really should not be your main takeaway.

You are in the worst possible position to attempt to tell me what to do given that when somebody simply said hip hop is not music, you immediately went, "yeah, you are just an old white b*****d".  What words am I putting in your mouth?  Those were your words and I have quoted them upthread.  I don't care if it's so tough for you to accept you were wrong to stereotype him like that. I will keep repeating that it is wrong because it is, unambiguously so.  A retort to a dumb take on a music genre cannot be to stereotype that person himself; that's even dumber, even more rude. 



Posted By: suitkees
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 05:21
Maybe you two could call it quits instead of continuing this miscommunication. And go back to the thread's topic...?

In my opinion there are some different meanings given to the word "music" here, navigating between music as the result of a work of creation and music as a quality of what we hear ("quality" in the sense of a characteristic aspect of something, not the good/bad quality-thing). There can be much musical quality in the singing of birds, but I don't think we could consider what they produce a work of music (for me it has a lot to do with the intention behind it). But we can manipulate these sounds into a work of music (music concrète is of course the example of using "found" sounds in order to create a work of music).
Some here have argued that music is in the ear of the beholder, which corresponds in my opinion to recognizing/hearing a musical quality in things, without "it" necessarily being music (as the result of a work of creation).

That said, we can all have a personal definition of what "music" is, but it won't make communication with others easier if we don't try to understand how the other is using (defining) the same word.

And: bad music is still music.


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The razamataz is a pain in the bum


Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 05:27
"If you don't believe Hip Hop is music, and you say that as a big one size fits all statement, you are old, probably white, and an embodiment of a certain stereotype"

"yeah, you are just an old white b*****d"

I mean besides the fact you're dramatizing what I actually said, I really don't feel bad about that comment, and i'm not really going to keep arguing over a harmless poke like that. His original comment just reeked of dopy closeminded ignorance and just totally shot down and wrote off a multitude of genres all in one big sweep. We're on an anonymous prog music form, if I see someone bashing hip hop, electronic instruments/drums and pitch correction, as far as I'm concerned you're a middle aged dad who gets excited every summer for the rock legacy tour featuring Foreigner, REO Speedwagon and Tesla until proven otherwise. Someone like him isn't looking for any sort of open minded discussion when they're just presenting their opinions as blunt objective fact. My reply at the end there was really just meant to be a light passing jab, no, I don't actually hate old white people or think lesser of them, I mean eventually i'll be one myself. But every now and then it's fun to poke fun at a generational stereotype the same way one could make fun of people who are my age for a multitude of reasons, like idk.... we're all a bunch of Tik Tok, Tide Pod Eating, Nicotine Addicted, fiends who listen to cartoonishly autotuned and hyper produced music. I think at the end of the day it's not like old white people are under any sort of attack in their day to day lives and a forum post like my own probably wont be sending any sort of shockwaves their way.


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The sun has left the sky...
...Now you can close your eyes


Posted By: suitkees
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 05:36
Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

...who listen to cartoonishly autotuned and hyper produced music.

Oh, you're talking about the new Arc of Life album here...!?  Wink


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The razamataz is a pain in the bum


Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 05:38
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

...who listen to cartoonishly autotuned and hyper produced music.

Oh, you're talking about the new Arc of Life album here...!?  Wink
Or almost anything Sir Billy of Sherwood has been involved in.

Ah well, different strokes for different folks. It might not be my cup of tea, but is is music. 🤢🤮



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https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect


Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 05:39
@dougmcauliffe

I think a young person is more likely to see rap and hip-hop that way.

As for the recent discussion, there could be the flip side of the coin too; that is, a black person who "defends" rap and hip-hop JUST because it is a "black" thingy.


Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 06:01
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

 the singing of birds, but I don't think we could consider what they produce a work of music (for me it has a lot to do with the intention behind it).


For exactitude's sake, some birds sing and some don't. I think the birds that (can) sing are making melodies and that is within the framework of creating music. Though, I wouldn't say they are very creative about it, haha. The discussion could be about whether the melodies they sing are instinctive or not. In either case, I'd call it "music", given that an entire song can be composed of a single melody (and the variations of it).


Posted By: suitkees
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 06:07
^ hehe. What more is, they have a good memory, because every day they sing the same song, over and over again... Wink
If their songs can be called music in the sense of a work of creation remains open for debate... I've many birds flying and singing around the house, but I'm note a specialist. (but hey, "song" means work of creation, no? Oh gosh...)


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The razamataz is a pain in the bum


Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 06:10
^ All the birds are the "cover" artists of their first ancestors and are doomed to be so for eternityyyyyyyyy!

Oh well, no... That shouldn't be it, there is evolution, for God's sake! LOL


Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 06:13
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

...who listen to cartoonishly autotuned and hyper produced music.

Oh, you're talking about the new Arc of Life album here...!?  Wink

LOL 

Alright, alright.... we might be able to make a case for "Arc of Life" not being music Smile Is Arc of Life really gonna be the moment of clairty? The middle ground of this thread? LOLLOL The second I saw the name Billy Sherwood attached and a track called "Locked Down," I knew exactly what we were getting into.


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The sun has left the sky...
...Now you can close your eyes


Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 06:22
A lot of traditional Māori music uses birdsong. Among the various taonga pūoro (traditional Māori musical instruments) are some that deliberately mimic birdsong.

One of my favourite albums from last year was Ruby Solly’s Pōneke- which uses a combination of taonga pūoro, cello and found sounds/field recordings. The birdsong you hear when you listen is not from field recordings, but rather from taonga pūoro.

https://rubysolly.bandcamp.com/album/p-neke" rel="nofollow - https://rubysolly.bandcamp.com/album/p-neke

Pōneke was one of two taonga pūoro albums that really spoke to me last year, the other being by Ariana Tikao and Al Fraser.

https://rattle-records.bandcamp.com/album/nau-mai-e-k-hua" rel="nofollow - https://rattle-records.bandcamp.com/album/nau-mai-e-k-hua

I also really enjoyed another album featuring Al Fraser, which deliberately pitted the ancient sounds of taonga pūoro against more modern electronic sounds.

https://rattle-records.bandcamp.com/album/mixed-messages" rel="nofollow - https://rattle-records.bandcamp.com/album/mixed-messages

And each one of these albums that I throughly enjoyed, and absolutely found musical, provoked the reaction of some to question if they were even music at all.



 


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https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect


Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 06:46
Originally posted by Shadowyzard Shadowyzard wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

 the singing of birds, but I don't think we could consider what they produce a work of music (for me it has a lot to do with the intention behind it).


For exactitude's sake, some birds sing and some don't. I think the birds that (can) sing are making melodies and that is within the framework of creating music. Though, I wouldn't say they are very creative about it, haha. The discussion could be about whether the melodies they sing are instinctive or not. In either case, I'd call it "music", given that an entire song can be composed of a single melody (and the variations of it).


Blackbirds and Caucasian birds all joined in a dawn chorus of sumptuous musical harmony. Bless.


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Posted By: A Crimson Mellotron
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 07:27
Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

This should blow your mind.


Just beautiful.



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