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Are Certain Genres Not "Music"? |
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Lewian 
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 Posted: March 14 2021 at 11:00 |
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True. I also once saw Cage in a video commenting on it, and he seemed far more interested in meditation than provocation, although I find it hard to believe that he wasn't aware of the provocative side of it.
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JD
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Posted: March 14 2021 at 10:59 |
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I seem to remember hearing or reading something way back in the ancient times (circa 70's) that he performed it outside in a downtown area (NYC ??) and that the sounds of the environment became the music. Perhaps more of a metaphysical piece than a purely musical exploration. The most fascinating part of this concept to me is no matter how skilled the musican(s) performing are, the piece can never be played the same twice.
Edited by JD - March 14 2021 at 10:59 |
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Easy Money
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Posted: March 14 2021 at 10:56 |
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Re '4:33': Cage was trying to get people to increase their awareness, to listen to the sounds around them as if they were composed music.
It takes a bit of concentration and mental discipline, it is similar to meditation. I often use this sort of mental discipline to shut off extraneous thoughts and get some sleep. It works, but it takes effort. Edited by Easy Money - March 14 2021 at 10:57 |
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Lewian
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Posted: March 14 2021 at 10:56 |
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By the way I can totally see Doug's annoyance about people who say "hip hop is not music" particularly if it can be suspected that this means for them "as a music lover it doesn't even fall in my area" as a cheap excuse to not give it a chance. This is indeed worse than saying "I don't like it" - of course everyone is not only entitled to not like it but also to not listen to it after the first or second unenjoyable experience. However "it's not music" seems to raise the dislike on some kind of superficially general and "objective" level where it really shouldn't be. Now the thing is that (as I wrote earlier) the term music is floating in meaning and somebody else can say "my music definition is X, and what is music and what I like are two different matters, I hear a lot of hip hop and like it but it still is not music to me", which then would be a different cup of tea altogether. And none of these has in the first place to do with one's colour of skin or age, although these attitudes are for sure not equally distributed over all skin colours and ages, and chances are there are people who hate it and are also racist and these two are connected... which can all be said without stereotyping anyone in particular. |
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Icarium
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Posted: March 14 2021 at 10:54 |
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^ Like the best sound effect in horror music was not the music or ambience but the absence of sound - silence - which also servs as one of Dr Whos most chilling enemys - The Silence
Bernard Hermann helped to widen the pallet of what music were supposed to sound like or were not supposed to be. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6kv9gVBWDo Edited by Icarium - March 14 2021 at 10:58 |
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Lewian
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Posted: March 14 2021 at 10:45 |
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The thing about this is that it illustrates the potential of the "what is music and where does it stop" discussion. I'm pretty sure Cage had such discussions, surely he was thinking about the limitations of the "music" concept and how to extend them. I saw this once live performed by G. Ligeti, who also introduced and discussed it. It serves as drawing people's attention to what else can be heard, it surely isn't "nothing". It did a lot paving the way for introducing all kinds of noises and sounds into western music, be it the "high brow" academic variety, or be it later the Beatles, Pink Floyd, Can... Understanding "what's in it" requires to listen properly, but a major quality of it is also "extra-musical" and intellectual, if you want, in its provocative but also its educating quality. Now is that music? Requiring a straight yes or no answer misses the point. For me listening to all kinds of noises consciously as "musical" is something of a familiar habit, but it probably wouldn't be without pioneers like Cage. The magnificent fart thing probably wouldn't have existed either, surely not on youtube.
Edited by Lewian - March 14 2021 at 10:47 |
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A Crimson Mellotron
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Posted: March 14 2021 at 07:27 |
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A Crimson Mellotron
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Posted: March 14 2021 at 07:27 |
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ExittheLemming
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Posted: March 14 2021 at 06:46 |
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Blackbirds and Caucasian birds all joined in a dawn chorus of sumptuous musical harmony. Bless.
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nick_h_nz
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Posted: March 14 2021 at 06:22 |
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A lot of traditional Māori music uses birdsong. Among the various taonga pūoro (traditional Māori musical instruments) are some that deliberately mimic birdsong.
One of my favourite albums from last year was Ruby Solly’s Pōneke- which uses a combination of taonga pūoro, cello and found sounds/field recordings. The birdsong you hear when you listen is not from field recordings, but rather from taonga pūoro. Pōneke was one of two taonga pūoro albums that really spoke to me last year, the other being by Ariana Tikao and Al Fraser. I also really enjoyed another album featuring Al Fraser, which deliberately pitted the ancient sounds of taonga pūoro against more modern electronic sounds. And each one of these albums that I throughly enjoyed, and absolutely found musical, provoked the reaction of some to question if they were even music at all. |
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dougmcauliffe
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Posted: March 14 2021 at 06:13 |
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 Alright, alright.... we might be able to make a case for "Arc of Life" not being music
 Is Arc of Life really gonna be the moment of clairty? The middle ground of this thread? The second I saw the name Billy Sherwood attached and a track called "Locked Down," I knew exactly what we were getting into.Edited by dougmcauliffe - March 14 2021 at 06:20 |
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Shadowyzard
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Posted: March 14 2021 at 06:10 |
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^ All the birds are the "cover" artists of their first ancestors and are doomed to be so for eternityyyyyyyyy!
Oh well, no... That shouldn't be it, there is evolution, for God's sake!
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suitkees
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Posted: March 14 2021 at 06:07 |
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^ hehe. What more is, they have a good memory, because every day they sing the same song, over and over again...  If their songs can be called music in the sense of a work of creation remains open for debate... I've many birds flying and singing around the house, but I'm note a specialist. (but hey, "song" means work of creation, no? Oh gosh...)
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Shadowyzard
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Posted: March 14 2021 at 06:01 |
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For exactitude's sake, some birds sing and some don't. I think the birds that (can) sing are making melodies and that is within the framework of creating music. Though, I wouldn't say they are very creative about it, haha. The discussion could be about whether the melodies they sing are instinctive or not. In either case, I'd call it "music", given that an entire song can be composed of a single melody (and the variations of it). Edited by Shadowyzard - March 14 2021 at 06:02 |
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Shadowyzard
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Posted: March 14 2021 at 05:39 |
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@dougmcauliffe
I think a young person is more likely to see rap and hip-hop that way. As for the recent discussion, there could be the flip side of the coin too; that is, a black person who "defends" rap and hip-hop JUST because it is a "black" thingy. |
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nick_h_nz
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Posted: March 14 2021 at 05:38 |
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Or almost anything Sir Billy of Sherwood has been involved in. Ah well, different strokes for different folks. It might not be my cup of tea, but is is music. 🤢🤮 |
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suitkees
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Posted: March 14 2021 at 05:36 |
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Oh, you're talking about the new Arc of Life album here...!?
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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dougmcauliffe
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Posted: March 14 2021 at 05:27 |
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"If you don't believe Hip Hop is music, and you say that as a big one size fits all statement, you are old, probably white, and an embodiment of a certain stereotype"
"yeah, you are just an old white b*****d" I mean besides the fact you're dramatizing what I actually said, I really don't feel bad about that comment, and i'm not really going to keep arguing over a harmless poke like that. His original comment just reeked of dopy closeminded ignorance and just totally shot down and wrote off a multitude of genres all in one big sweep. We're on an anonymous prog music form, if I see someone bashing hip hop, electronic instruments/drums and pitch correction, as far as I'm concerned you're a middle aged dad who gets excited every summer for the rock legacy tour featuring Foreigner, REO Speedwagon and Tesla until proven otherwise. Someone like him isn't looking for any sort of open minded discussion when they're just presenting their opinions as blunt objective fact. My reply at the end there was really just meant to be a light passing jab, no, I don't actually hate old white people or think lesser of them, I mean eventually i'll be one myself. But every now and then it's fun to poke fun at a generational stereotype the same way one could make fun of people who are my age for a multitude of reasons, like idk.... we're all a bunch of Tik Tok, Tide Pod Eating, Nicotine Addicted, fiends who listen to cartoonishly autotuned and hyper produced music. I think at the end of the day it's not like old white people are under any sort of attack in their day to day lives and a forum post like my own probably wont be sending any sort of shockwaves their way.
Edited by dougmcauliffe - March 14 2021 at 05:29 |
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suitkees
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Posted: March 14 2021 at 05:21 |
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Maybe you two could call it quits instead of continuing this miscommunication. And go back to the thread's topic...? In my opinion there are some different meanings given to the word "music" here, navigating between music as the result of a work of creation and music as a quality of what we hear ("quality" in the sense of a characteristic aspect of something, not the good/bad quality-thing). There can be much musical quality in the singing of birds, but I don't think we could consider what they produce a work of music (for me it has a lot to do with the intention behind it). But we can manipulate these sounds into a work of music (music concrète is of course the example of using "found" sounds in order to create a work of music). Some here have argued that music is in the ear of the beholder, which corresponds in my opinion to recognizing/hearing a musical quality in things, without "it" necessarily being music (as the result of a work of creation). That said, we can all have a personal definition of what "music" is, but it won't make communication with others easier if we don't try to understand how the other is using (defining) the same word. And: bad music is still music.
Edited by suitkees - March 14 2021 at 05:45 |
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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rogerthat
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Posted: March 14 2021 at 04:53 |
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You are in the worst possible position to attempt to tell me what to do given that when somebody simply said hip hop is not music, you immediately went, "yeah, you are just an old white b*****d". What words am I putting in your mouth? Those were your words and I have quoted them upthread. I don't care if it's so tough for you to accept you were wrong to stereotype him like that. I will keep repeating that it is wrong because it is, unambiguously so. A retort to a dumb take on a music genre cannot be to stereotype that person himself; that's even dumber, even more rude. |
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Easy Money wrote:
i've said all these words in my comments, gone deep into what i'm arguing against and you're still stuck on the word "white." Of everything i've said over the several pages here, that really should not be your main takeaway.