Are Certain Genres Not "Music"? |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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When someone says it's one demographic that has this opinion of hip hop, it's very clear what that refers to unless we want to suddenly get very specific about words (when MortSahlFan never said a single racist thing against black people and only assailed hip hop). I hope you can see the contradiction in your logic but if you can't, *shrug*
I have heard progressive Italian hip hop and for the last few years Punjabi hip hop has caught on in India. So I don't agree. But again, believe whatever you wish because the strength of your beliefs are clear from the portion I am going to quote...
But if we are going to bring racism into the equation, then music as the Western world views it tends to be racist. The way music that is not white or Western enough is labelled urban or world, when there is often no need for that. . No! No! No! It is just a convenience, that's all. What do you think we in India call music from America, UK, Italy, et al, all put together? We just call it Western music. We don't try to get specific with subcultural classification except when we are talking about one specific genre alone. And basically anything outside India is non-Indian music even though the whole wide world is much bigger than India. Anything from the northern part of India is called north Indian by people living in the Southern part of India and vice versa even though both regions have multiple linguistic communities. There is no difference between that and what you're talking about. Of course anything from outside the Western world is called world music; that's not racist, that's just classification. Besides, blues and jazz are/were also dominated by black people and nobody today says they are 'not Western'. I already laid out why hip hop is revolutionary and why therefore it triggers strong reactions. The bad thing about this is it is so unpleasant but the good thing is it is the only music left that still challenges our views about what can be possible in music. The attacks are par for the course. Nobody attacks rock because rock is essentially dead as a dodo while a few great musicians try to keep the corpse alive. Hip hop is alive, well and thriving. Yes, some of the people who attack hip hop, like Ben Shapiro, clearly do so from a racist perspective. But to presume a racist or bigoted intent the moment somebody attacks hip hop is nearly as bad as holding racist beliefs about hip hop itself. And that is my only point in this discussion. Do NOT become what you're fighting against. You can't just jump to make presumptions about a person's identity based on his views about one music genre and then try to defend yourself with word salad. No, it was wrong to make that presumption in the first place. Oh but you are not going to admit it, you will keep justifying your and doug's position. I know how it goes.
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nick_h_nz
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The only person who has brought race and/or racism into the equation is MortSahlFan. Nothing Doug said was even remotely racist - unless someone chooses to take it that way. And while I agree that not all nastiness is bigoted, sometime it is, but just isn’t as immediately apparent.
Much of the reaction against hip hop (or urban) music is because it is considered “black music”. It doesn’t matter if there is the odd exception like Eminem. In fact, in some ways that makes it worse. I have known a lot of people who say they hate hip hop, but they like Eminem. I have friends for whom the only hip hop they own is Eminem. Em once famously declared he was the Elvis Presley of rap. Only, he hasn’t really been, because while Elvis made black music palatable for a white audience, white hip hop artists remain the minority. Almost every popular form of music in the Western world - rock, blues, jazz, etc. - has come from black music that has been assimilated and accepted into what white audiences are comfortable with. Hip hop remains a predominately black music, and resistant to gentrification.
But if we are going to bring racism into the equation, then music as the Western world views it tends to be racist. The way music that is not white or Western enough is labelled urban or world, when there is often no need for that. I wrote an article for The Progressive Aspecf last year, on 11 June, which was designated as #SpeakUpThursday and a day to “Use Your Platform” to express how you feel about how racism in music still exists today. I concentrated on “world music” because much of what I listen to is described as world music - even though it could easily be called rock, pop, jazz, folk, hip hop, soul, etc. —-//—- Systemic and inherent racism are being widely spoken about, if not always widely understood, topics at present. It might seem that music is above all that, but while by no means all who make the music, promote the music, or listen to the music are racist, there has long been an air of cultural superiority when it comes to Western music. Classical music exists throughout the world, but it tends to be white European classical music that is most exalted. Nowhere, though, is this sense of cultural superiority more obvious than when the term “world music” is used. It’s now about 30 years since the concept was created, I’d like to think with the best intentions, but the idea of world music was never a good one then. And certainly not now. Thankfully, more and more people are coming to recognise that world music is an outdated and increasingly offensive term. Artists from Western countries tend not to get stuck in the world section – just those that don’t speak English or come from “exotic” parts of the world. It can come across, intentionally or otherwise, that the only music that “matters” is that which white musicians have co-opted and made popular throughout the western world. Thus a black musician can play jazz, blues, or rock with relative impunity, but anything outside this white comfort zone is too often relegated to the musical ghetto of world music. Music should be unprejudiced, and all mu-sic should be world music. I have fallen into this trap myself recently, when I relegated Josh Feinberg’s recent album to an A Different Aspect article, stating that as much as I love it (and I do), it wasn’t really progressive. I was pulled up on this, and rightly so. “In many ways it is more progressive than a lot of prog – the polyrhythms, shifting sub-divisions, pushing and pulling of time,” I was told. I foolishly responded, thinking I was justifying myself, when I was really showing my own ignorance,that while there is no denying the complexities and intricacies of Eastern music over Western, and the use of microtones, and polyrhythms, those are standard for the style of music. Josh Feinberg is amazing, I said, but he didn’t appear to me to be doing anything to take the music out of the Hindustani framework (i.e., to make it progressive). It’s the same with a lot of things from the East. You could make the same argument for Carnatic and Gamelan, I suggested. Both are again complex and intricate, I imagine you might call them progressive, but for me, they are what they are, and it is what someone does with them that makes them progressive. But here’s the kicker, I guess. And I really should know better. Although I had the best intentions, I was letting my ignorance shine through. I am not racist, and I’d like to think most people who follow The Progressive Aspect are not racist also, but it’s important to recognise our limitations. I might well enjoy a lot of non-Western music (and I do), but I clearly don’t know enough about it, or listen to enough variety, to know just what is progressive. It has now been pointed out to me that within Indian Classical there are ‘traditionalists’, and then there are ‘progressives’ – and that Josh Feinberg is definitely in the progressive camp. I was pointed toward another example of a ‘progressive’, as opposed to a ‘traditionalist’, Shahid Parvez Khan, who “really, really pushes polyrhythms and polymetrics, weird mathy subdivisions and changes. When I saw him live, there were parts where he was mimicking a delay pedal. He’s absolutely a progressive artist in the genre.” The point is, even those of us who are well aware of the prejudices in our society, and who are anti-racism, can still fall fowl of the cultural superiority that the labelling of Western music, as opposed to “world” music creates. “World” effectively means “the rest of the world that is not familiar enough, or white enough, for us to conveniently place into genres it might otherwise fall into, if we gave it more thought”. While there will always be exceptions, the vast majority of “world” music could fall into the same broad categories we use for Western music (for example, rock, folk, jazz, soul or hip hop). That they are not, is a sign that we are still not as free of prejudice as we might like I have recently consigned a review of Eishan Ensemble’s latest album to the bin, and am in the process of re-writing it, because ultimately it is a progressive jazz album (and a very good one). Why limit the potential audience of a good piece of music by affixing the word “world”? Admittedly, I did not, because I have long found that a troublesome term; but even without calling Eishan Ensemble’s music “world”, I was still framing it in a way that was unfair. This happens more often than you might think. Bands and artists that hail from non-Western countries, no matter if they play music that would be “accepted” by Western listeners, are unfairly given the label “world music”. Even if a musician moves to a Western country their origin is unfairly shackled to them. A quick google reveals two such artists: a Nigerian soul singer who moved to Germany, but whose music (despite her entreaties) is still sold as “world music” rather than soul; and a rapper from the Congo, now residing in Belgium, who would rather his music was sold as “hip hop”, but finds it still handicapped by the “world music” label. As an example of how ingrained the sense of cultural superiority is within music, I have no doubt whatsoever, that if Vodun were a band hailing from West Africa, their albums would have ended up lost in the world music section. Rather than being one of “our” bands, using West African rhythms, they would be seen as a West African band, fusing their traditional music within a Western framework. That Vodun are not considered world music merely underlines how wrong it is to use the label at all, and how essentially arbitrarily it is used. To reiterate, because I can’t make this point enough, I’m almost 100% convinced it is because Vodun are a “British” band, or else they, too, would be a “world music” band. If we, as listeners of music, want to be as progressive as the music we like to listen to, we need to start questioning some of the norms within the music industry. A friend of mine recently suggested that even a label as seemingly innocuous as “folk” can also have connotations of cultural superiority. As she pointed out, the Westernised homogeneity people assume from the label is completely counter to the so many different traditions and cultures it should span. Much “world music” is folk music, yet you won’t find it in the folk section of your local record store. And this is true for most labels, starting all the way back with classical. The labels we use instantly “favour” or evoke Western modes. Classical music includes the Indian Classical music I mentioned earlier, as Carnatic and Hindustani are just two extremely vast catalogues of music not usually thought of when someone talks of classical music. It’s perhaps also worth calling out cultural appropriation, as there are definitely times when non-Western instruments (and stereotypically, the sitar) are used for effect, without real context. I listen to plenty of white and/or Western artists who use Eastern instruments or instrumentation, but they don’t do it for effect. That’s absolutely fine. It’s when it’s used just to dress up a piece of music or add a little colour, that I find it grating. It’s like the musical equivalent of black face. But while black face is now universally reviled and recognised as being offensive, it’s musical equivalent does not (yet?) draw such ire or condemnation. But I love it when someone shows a real passion for learning about the instrument and history of music played with it. Charlie Cawood and Lachlan Dale are two great examples of this. Concluding this article is not easy, as it is hard to neatly wrap things up when there is still so much misunderstanding (some wilful, and much unintentional) regarding systemic and inherent racism. There are many people out there who are anti-racist, but due to their white privilege overlook the more subtle aspects of cultural superiority within society. There is always opportunity for learning and recognition of what could be changed for the better. I have long railed against the term world music, but still stumbled into unintentional prejudice (due to ignorance) when writing about Josh Feinberg’s album. What you take from this article is up to you. It’s up to all of us. |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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This is what I am talking about. A lot of people who don't like hip hop aren't white and may not even be old. You're going to have deal with it. Not everyone knows about the origins of hip hop either; again, to many people it's just music ('or not music music' according to them). For the last time, a lot of these connections that may be obvious from an American perspective are not to many from the rest of the world. I know but only because I hang out a lot in places like this. The first hip hop based song I heard wasn't even one by an African American musician. It was a composition of A R Rahman from back in the 90s. People can be nasty when they express their dislike of certain music; all nastiness isn't bigoted. An idiot metalhead acquaintance of mine was once nasty to me because I shared a ghazal on FB. But...I don't operate with these cultural or sub cultural boundaries that he seemed to so for me, it wasn't 'weird' to like both metal and ghazals (and numerous other genres). No, he wasn't being racist, just stupid which is par for the course in metal world.
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dougmcauliffe
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"This is the most ignorant comment i've read here" The irony "I'm not white, I'm not old, I've been a professional musician since the age of 17." You just made a bizarre unhinged post earlier about how you haven't left your house in months, as if i'm going to believe you've been making a sustainable living, in other words: a professional, musician since you were a teenager. "Your comments are not only incorrect and ignorant, but it seems I hit a sore spot with you, so you resort to the trendy sh*t. Maybe you're mad because you can't play an instrument." I mean, I can play an instrument, I don't have to prove that to you but that is, as a matter of fact, what I go to school for. So in other words, that is "incorrect and ignorant." What trendy s**t? Later, you racist stereotype. Man, if not being narrow minded and blissfully intolerant towards entire subcultures and genres of music is all it takes to be a racist stereotype, than I am a racist stereotype
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Hrychu
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I like both hip hop and prog.
Both genres can have good and bad music. Edited by Hrychu - March 12 2021 at 20:03 |
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dougmcauliffe
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^ I didn't call him racist anywhere in that comment though.... as a matter of fact, he edited his comment to call me racist
The stereotype I was referring to was the old bud light guzzling 55+ white guy who takes to facebook on the regular to preach about snowflake millennials and how they just don't make music like they used to as he turns on Close to the Edge for the 6th time this week.... there's a wine mom equivalent. But there's no motive to put down any race in my comment or suggest that the other user is racist, at the end of the day, there's only really one demographic of people who regularly go out of their way to completely write off Hip Hop and call it "not music." I think I pointed out in another comment some of the implications that one might presume by hearing someone say "hip hop is not music," wether intended or not. The thing is, hip hop really is a proxy for black culture and there's no denying that's where the real meat of the genre comes from. While Eminem and MGK have had big success in the genre, they don't represent the overwhelming bigger picture, much of the most influential and archetype hip hop records stem from an expression of issues and prejudices faced by the African American community, and that's why I say making those bigoted comments carry some pretty nasty undertones to them. Even the grammys came under fire for compartmentalizing and segregating certain African American fronted music into a category called "urban contemporary music" that could easily just fall into the pop or RnB category. I struggle to see how recognizing that hip hop is a very predominantly black-led art is an American thing, it seems pretty universal to me.
Edited by dougmcauliffe - March 12 2021 at 20:21 |
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rogerthat
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Er, well,. there is surely no need to indulge in "you're racist" the moment somebody says he think hip hop is crap. Is that really such a big deal? I could point to a hundred different music genres/sub genres that metalheads used to routinely dub as crap. It may be unpleasant to be highly opinionated but it's not a crime. And again, this reflexively presuming racism when someone bashes hip hop is an American thing. While hip hop has universal following, it isn't nearly as popular in many other parts of the world as in America so that strong correlation that seems to naturally come to say doug's mind doesn't occur to many of us. We don't necessarily think of hip hop as a proxy for a black sub culture (and it's no longer anyway, I mean, Eminem, Machine Gun Kelly); it's just another kind of music and one that still polarizes opinions because of its inherent design. It will take a couple more generations of ubiquity before hip hop as a very normal idea of music comes to be.
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nick_h_nz
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I’ve refrained from replying to the posts I’ve seen from you so far, because while they are ignorant and narrow-minded, they have not been personal. Insulting Doug in this way is not on. The only sore spot that appears to have been hit is your own, and you clearly haven’t been paying much attention to the forum if you’re unaware of Doug’s musical knowledge and ability. By all means, stick to your comfort zone, and insult music you don’t like as much as you like - but don’t make it personal. Doug was suggesting that most people who suggest some genres of music live up to a stereotype, which he described, but included the word probably. Age is relative anyway, so perhaps you are old in Doug’s eye? And just because you are a professional musician doesn’t mean your views are correct, and that Doug’s are incorrect, you clearly have a difference of opinion, but there is no objective way to say his views are wrong and yours are right. |
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MortSahlFan
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This is the most ignorant comment I've read here. Probably the only one. I'm not white, I'm not old, I've been a professional musician since the age of 17. Your
comments are not only incorrect and ignorant, but it seems I hit a sore
spot with you, so you resort to the trendy sh*t. Maybe you're mad
because you can't play an instrument. Later, you racist stereotype.
Edited by MortSahlFan - March 12 2021 at 15:47 |
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SteveG
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One man's noise is another man's symphony. So no.
Edited by SteveG - March 12 2021 at 19:57 |
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Progishness
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Anyone making a stupid generalisation like that has clearly never heard 'The Score' by the Fugees - a masterpiece of an album regardless of your personal tastes & preferances.
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Progishness
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And where would music in general (and prog in particular) be without innovators and experimentation?
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ExittheLemming
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Metal machine Music "Well, anyone who gets to side four is dumber than I am." (Lou Reed)
Edited by ExittheLemming - March 12 2021 at 09:14 |
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Icarium
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Or Leonard Cohan whos carear is based around talk-singing, and is almost earned him a Nobel Literature price.
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nick_h_nz
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Or much of Lou Reed’s Raven. Or for that matter, his manner of “singing” on Lulu. Both of those albums, like Metal Machine Music so many years before, received criticism that they weren’t even music. Blatantly untrue, even if the performance at times wasn’t conventionally musical. The thing is, they were just another couple of albums where Reed took some of his fanbase outside their comfort zone. David Bowie, John Cale, Lou Reed, Frank Zappa - you name it, there are renowned and well-liked musicians who have alienated some of their fanbase at times, by making music in quite different ways and styles. Some less “musical” to some ears - but each of those still music to the ears of others. Once again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and music is in the mind of the listener. What’s music to one person isn’t to another. And some listeners find it easier to take leaps out of their comfort zones more than others, (And for anyone who wants to show their appreciation of Reed’s Raven or Lulu, both appear in a poll I made for his last few years: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=125586 ) |
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siLLy puPPy
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Anybody who says that all hip hop is crap clearly hasn't been exposed to the wide range of what exists these days. Check these out. Just a really small sampling. The BLazing Arrow album is best experienced as an album experience. This is just one cool track. M.I.A. has some intersting stuff Same with Run The Jewels
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Progishness
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So presumably, 'Fairy Tales' the first Mother Gong album would fall into that category?
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Icarium
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Are spoken word music or poetry
Edited by Icarium - March 12 2021 at 08:17 |
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Easy Money
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Any genre produces mediocrity once music industry types realize there is money in that genre. Thats what happened to rap, and that is what has happened to different types of rock and RnB over the years. Edited by Easy Money - March 12 2021 at 07:51 |
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Grumpyprogfan
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