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Are Certain Genres Not "Music"?

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Awesoreno View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Awesoreno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Are Certain Genres Not "Music"?
    Posted: March 10 2021 at 15:25
I made this since Lewian thought it better to discuss on a thread not dedicated to a Steven Wilson interview. I agree. 

Have at it. 
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Catcher10 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2021 at 15:28
Define "music" please....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Awesoreno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2021 at 15:36
Well, I knew a definition of music would have to follow. But some people have different ideas of music. My approach is pretty all-encompassing, and depends solely on the intent of the artist. Frank Zappa has a pretty open-ended definition of a composition in his book.

How do you define music?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2021 at 15:41
'Music' comes from the Greek mousa (muse),
The Muses were the Greek poets' divinized conceptions of the faculties that help them to create and recite poetry.
So, the simple answer to your question is, NO, certain genres (whatever they are) are ALWAYS music.
Next question?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2021 at 15:46
I agree with JD.........any genre of music is music. How is music not music??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Man With Hat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2021 at 16:02
I guess I need to read the original thread, but yeah...music is music. There are definitely genres where the music is secondary (for example, rap and pop), but they are still music. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2021 at 16:19
The question is probably not well defined, since as soon we are talking about genre, we are talking about a typology and a typology is always a typology of something - in this case music.

I think the discussion that is referred to was much more triggered by this exchange:
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Yes. For me, music has to have rhythm, melody, and harmony. Acepella is only one out of three.

Music has to have sound, sound, and sound. That's more than enough.

Which is a different questioning than to talk about musical genres...

I guess that as soon sound is being made with an intention that goes beyond the mere communication function but looks for a poetic function, we could talk about music. "Harmony" is something very much culturally determined... So, yes, sound, sound and sound, as soon as there is some intentional composing behind it... I guess...
(now, to contradict - or question - myself: are birds singing producing music...?)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2021 at 16:35
First flaw in Grumpyprogfan's argument...How does A Cappella only have one of the three elements from the list above, it has two at the very least and a talented singer can sing harmony with themselves.

Ok, my mistake, it was a twin. LOL

But really, rhythm & melody are easily present in singing
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2021 at 16:43
As I said, for me, music needs rhythm (the beat), melody (what you hum - usually the lyrics), and harmony (the chords or notes that exist with melody). Sound only is not music. Was your baby waking you up all night crying (sound) music? Not to my ears. Just like a blank canvas is not art - it needs paint.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2021 at 16:57
Have you not seen The Beatles White Album?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2021 at 17:17
This should blow your mind.




Edited by JD - March 10 2021 at 17:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2021 at 17:30
A friend told me the story that he once went to an avantgarde concert (that some people may not find very "musical"). Somebody stood up and shouted "that's not music", and the bandleader then said, "well, I don't know, we can talk about that if you want, or we may go on anyway if that's fine by you". Which apparently was more popular, so they did...

This comes too late in the day so I'll probably join in tomorrow (thought there's quite a bit of work to do).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2021 at 17:39
Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

This should blow your mind.
Not mine. What do you think of this?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2021 at 17:56
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Define "music" please....

Hi,

And I think that's where it all "starts". I'm guilty in that in the 60's there were things being done in theater, film and music that "defied" the standard norms of "what music is/was" ... and yet, we did not dislike them, and somehow they survived the onslaught of folks making fun of it. 

A fun example ... some electronic stuff in the 50's was not considered "music" but was used in a few films, and it came off fantastic, helping give it "not here" or "somewhere else in the universe" feel ... that even things like "Star Wars" DID NOT DO, BUT FAKED IT!

In the 60's when you look at Joseph Chaikan and many others, the "voice" was important, and when you see Mick accentuate certain words and phrases, you know he "got it" ... and used it forever, and still does very well. It defied the "definition" of the art form, but one thing happened ... it ended up spreading the "experiment" into the main source of music ... electronics in the early days, got a "keyboard" and all of a sudden was "considered" music because it was played ... not just haphazard noises!

Fast forward, and we get into a society that is so split up, in every way you can possibly imagine, and what do we do? We create a myriad of "genres" so people can find the stuff that seems better for them ... and in essence all we're doing is separating everything, and avoiding the discussion of ... "what is music". 

It doesn't help that many of the genres are not even about "music" per se, within a composed context, which has been for hundreds of years the defined "description" of what is music and what is just a barroom brawl and fun! Thus, my take (sometimes -- not always) that some stuff defies the idea of what music is ... well, I guess that using your DAW and creating a beat is composition ... without anything else except the adlibbing and words thrown in for effect ... the only concern I have is that the "beat" doesn't change ... another sentence is added to it instead, which makes is seem like "music".

My take is that the breakdown in the "definition" of things is the problem, and add to the equation that everyone in "social media" is a music expert and that their opinion is more important than the history and what made us define it so ... and many of these folks at times, do not care about that history or definition ... they just want their jingle in their ears, so they can have enough gumption to go to work, or school! We did the same thing a bit differently I thought, but in the end ... it feels like it was just different clothing! And, of course, colors!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2021 at 18:05
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

A friend told me the story that he once went to an avantgarde concert (that some people may not find very "musical"). Somebody stood up and shouted "that's not music", and the bandleader then said, "well, I don't know, we can talk about that if you want, or we may go on anyway if that's fine by you". Which apparently was more popular, so they did...
...

Hi,

Still not as bad as when we came out of "East Meets West" in Chicago and the fat over done ladies were in unison and the leader was saying out loud ... "how can you call all that improvisation ... music?" ... and it didn't matter that one of its folks was Yehudi Menuhin ... along with Ravi Shankar ... the lack of respect for the artists appreciation for music from what would be considered a different realm ... is a problem ... and guess what ... we get the same thing here.

I do not, exactly, think that rap/hip-hop is not music, but it creates a bit of confusion in my mind as to what "music" is ... and is not. But, one thing, for sure ... I do not want the RIGID and pathetic, separation that academia makes for all this ... because a lot of the hit stuff, still is considered "street music" and not "real music" ... and at this point I say ... time out ...  now we're back to social rendering ... not discussing music! So someone is telling me that a circle in a different country with different people can not count because it was a ritual (going back to Missa Luba, and Pipes of Pan) and NOT MUSIC per se, which means it had to be composed and then played.
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote dougmcauliffe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2021 at 18:14
I think the presence of any one of those things, melody, harmony or rhythm is enough to constitute being called "music." I'd take it even further to the point where really any collection of sounds can be music, some of the most incredible stuff i've ever heard was when a professor showed me this small ensemble of her and some colleagues using their instruments in the most unconventional and avant garde ways, using mallets on the inside of a piano, vibrating guitar strings by tapping and rubbing the back of the guitar, it was really indescribable. I don't think anything is black and white, and music is what you make of it. At the end of the day it is just a collection of floating notes and pitches, it can be anything.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2021 at 18:17
Hi,

About SW ... his "definition" of music has changed. In the earlier days, the band created an atmosphere that helped his words stand up ... and nowadays, there is no atmosphere ... just a "song" and the words are more important than the atmosphere, and we're supposed to enjoy the feeling by his words ... 

I'm not sure that I care for the "song" person named SW ... I much prefer the trip material that was his band ... but then, you know what this says, right? ... guess where the "trip" idea came from ... NOT HIM! Specially visible now that he thinks his words are the trip and the music is secondary to it! Just augmented by his solo part and such ... just another "pop song" in my book!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2021 at 18:33
Any sound, or lack of sound, that is performed by an artist whether deliberate or improvised meets my definition of music whether it be free jazz or industrial drone noise. It may not be music I'd listen to but it meets the definition.
Ian

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2021 at 18:57
An "amusing" topic.

Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

'Music' comes from the Greek mousa (muse),
The Muses were the Greek poets' divinized conceptions of the faculties that help them to create and recite poetry.
So, the simple answer to your question is, NO, certain genres (whatever they are) are ALWAYS music.
Next question?
 
While, without seeing your post, I might have opted to present a tautology and say that non-music genres are not music or music genres by definition, since genres refers to categories of artistic composition, and the muses cover the arts and sciences, I will defer to your point in a certain agreement. Music can be considered to be more than sound, but also it can be considered to be less than "just sound" since it commonly implies arrangement.   Traffic noise can be incorporated into music and by itself not be considered music.  Trafficcore, and Post-Traffic, may be music genres, and Traffic is a band, but traffic noise alone might not inspire the muses -- that said, traffic controllers may be inspired by Erato, the muse of erotic poetry and traffic control.  Noise music is a genre of music, of course, but that incorporates "just noise" into a musical framework.  I often think of music generally as simply ordered and sequential notes of sound (though some have attempted one note "music").  That sound need not be musical per se to my ears, but it is structured to be music or must be perceived as music, which can rather depend on the listener.  Music generally is a sort of relationship between the composer and the sound, and the sound and the listener.

As for the "next question", when (if ever or never) is the Art genre not Art when it's an Art Garfunkel?  And what is art, and the limitations thereof, in the garfunkelian paradigm? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Erenan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2021 at 19:50
Presuming the question is asking about genres that purport to be music but actually are not music, and insofar as certain definitions of "music" might be considered to be correct definitions, there do exist correct definitions for which the answer is "no."
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