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The origins of progressive rock (proto-prog)
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I think most people on here would agree that for the most part full blown prog didn't really happen until the KC debut. There were possibly a few exceptions before that such as the Nice but as a full blown genre I think it's safe to say that ITCOTCK is the one that kicked the doors down. 

Consensus: ItCotCK was the first true REALIZATION of the progressive rock album. 

Album contenders before that was at the CONCEPTUALIZATION stage.
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I don't think we can have a proto prog discussion without mentioning the mellotron. This taped sampling system was a key and gateway into early prog with it's constantly out of tune and slightly slowed down spacy sound. It allowed several proto proggers to venture into more complex orchestral type arrangements which later led to the use of Moog synths and partial to full orchestral accompaniment.

Edited by SteveG - June 07 2018 at 04:13
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I don't think we can have a proto prog discussion without mentioning the mellotron. This taped sampling system was a key and gateway into early prog with it's constantly out of tune and slightly slowed down spacy sound. It allowed several proto proggers to venture into more complex orchestral type arrangements which later led to the use of Moog synths and partial to full orchestral accompaniment.

Of course, no proto-prog discussion w/o mentining the mellotron.

I did mention it in the OP/blog Wink


Edited by earlyprog - June 07 2018 at 08:58
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Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I think most people on here would agree that for the most part full blown prog didn't really happen until the KC debut. There were possibly a few exceptions before that such as the Nice but as a full blown genre I think it's safe to say that ITCOTCK is the one that kicked the doors down. 

Consensus: ItCotCK was the first true REALIZATION of the progressive rock album. 

Album contenders before that was at the CONCEPTUALIZATION stage.

I think a big part of that is the fact that Court was relatively successful and so more people knew about it. It's hard to be an influential album when it doesn't reach a lot of ears. Court while not super huge like say DSOTM or even as big as Fragile was successful enough for enough people to hear it and say to themselves "wait, what the heck is this?"
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Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

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Wow! A picture of me in my first band! I'm in the back line 2nd from the right playing an uggiddi stick with a string bender. Good times, man. Good times.

Edited by SteveG - June 07 2018 at 10:45
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Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I don't think we can have a proto prog discussion without mentioning the mellotron. This taped sampling system was a key and gateway into early prog with it's constantly out of tune and slightly slowed down spacy sound. It allowed several proto proggers to venture into more complex orchestral type arrangements which later led to the use of Moog synths and partial to full orchestral accompaniment.

Of course, no proto-prog discussion w/o mentining the mellotron.

I did mention it in the OP/blog Wink
oh, then let me rephrase that. I think the mellotron should be your starting point with harpsichord, organ, etc. as supporters that briefly made staring roles in the music, like the Hendrix song you mentioned.
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I think most people on here would agree that for the most part full blown prog didn't really happen until the KC debut. There were possibly a few exceptions before that such as the Nice but as a full blown genre I think it's safe to say that ITCOTCK is the one that kicked the doors down. 

Consensus: ItCotCK was the first true REALIZATION of the progressive rock album. 

Album contenders before that was at the CONCEPTUALIZATION stage.

I think a big part of that is the fact that Court was relatively successful and so more people knew about it. It's hard to be an influential album when it doesn't reach a lot of ears. Court while not super huge like say DSOTM or even as big as Fragile was successful enough for enough people to hear it and say to themselves "wait, what the heck is this?"

Agreed. REALIZATION requires an audience (buyers/customers, sellers/providers, musicians) gradually beginning to understand or REALIZE that there's a new genre in town they did not know or notice before.

Thanks for the input. It provides a better basis for the definition of the various stages of prog development.
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Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I think most people on here would agree that for the most part full blown prog didn't really happen until the KC debut. There were possibly a few exceptions before that such as the Nice but as a full blown genre I think it's safe to say that ITCOTCK is the one that kicked the doors down. 

Consensus: ItCotCK was the first true REALIZATION of the progressive rock album. 

Album contenders before that was at the CONCEPTUALIZATION stage.

I think a big part of that is the fact that Court was relatively successful and so more people knew about it. It's hard to be an influential album when it doesn't reach a lot of ears. Court while not super huge like say DSOTM or even as big as Fragile was successful enough for enough people to hear it and say to themselves "wait, what the heck is this?"

Agreed. REALIZATION requires an audience (buyers/customers, sellers/providers, musicians) gradually beginning to understand or REALIZE that there's a new genre in town they did not know or notice before.

Thanks for the input. It provides a better basis for the definition of the various stages of prog development.
I like it, but I find it difficult to believe that the Beatles, who have been getting a lot of press in the PA pages recently, would agree that Sgt. Pepper's was a CONCEPULAZATON and not a fully realized musical venture, hence a REALIZATION of what they intended, as ad hoc as some of the music and album themes actually were.
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Related image[/QUOTE]Wow! A picture of me in my first band! I'm in the back line 2nd from the right playing an uggiddi stick with a string bender. Good times, man. Good times. [/QUOTE]

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Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

To me the question is why rock 'n roll?--  why did rock progress so fully when pop and blues and folk and even jazz were generally stagnant and fixed in place.   What properties did rock have that allowed such growth?   And was it the era, or the music itself?   It's easy to say this artist or that artist were the "first", "pioneering", "seminal", all the recorded evidence is there to be analyzed and noted as influential.   But what caused the incredible rise of rock as art and its unexpected triumph, both commercially and creatively? ~



Above, siLLy puPPy gave some good answers to your amazement.

I think rock (still in it's undeveloped infancy) was inherently susceptible to adjustments and modifications (development) under the influence by the right people, technology and societal changes. The present blog lies within that - broader - framework, rather than focusing entirely on the susceptibility of rock to 'prog influences'.

Thanks for bringing the factor out in the open.




Edited by earlyprog - June 07 2018 at 14:05
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Originally posted by fredyair fredyair wrote:

Like they say, you hit the nail on the head. There was a stirring revolution in many areas of society, sexual, civil liberties, anti war movements, women liberation, etc, people were experimenting with mind bending drugs and at the same time the transistor revolution in electronics was connecting the world more closely than ever, creating new ways of communicating and expressing itself. Music couldn't stay away from it, and rock was the new kid in the block, eager to separate itself from the rest of popular music. I think that's the cocktail that brought us prog music.

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In will return to these influences in later additions to the blog (around part 5).
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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

To me the question is why rock 'n roll?--  why did rock progress so fully when pop and blues and folk and even jazz were generally stagnant and fixed in place.   What properties did rock have that allowed such growth?   And was it the era, or the music itself?   It's easy to say this artist or that artist were the "first", "pioneering", "seminal", all the recorded evidence is there to be analyzed and noted as influential.   But what caused the incredible rise of rock as art and its unexpected triumph, both commercially and creatively? ~



I would guess that jazz and the blues had been around for several decades and were entering their later life stage of creativity whereas rock was young, full of energy and was the music that attracted the creative youth to express themselves. Pop, jazz and blues didn't really go away, they were simply vacuumed up and inserted into rock's DNA in order to create all kinds of interesting musical monsters that we all love today Star

Rock + creativity => prog

with creativity depending on the available technology, people and societal changes.
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Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Certainly Procol Harum as Mortte mentioned but the first two both qualify....and the first Nice...Emerlist Davjack also...Moody Blues of course.....early Traffic imo.....and there are many obscure and one hit wonders that released very interesting things from 68-70...like East Of Eden that was mentioned above....the PA proto prog page lists some of them.
Spirit were doing interesting things even before 12 Dreams was released.
I always enjoyed Touch...sadly they only did the one LP.
And many of the Brit psych-rock things were crossing over into early prog back then....The Move...Pussy Plays....Moonkyte...Andromeda....

Agreed. Of the latter, Touch and Spirit are certainly worth analyzing for their prog worthiness. I will investigate Pussy Plays and Moonkyte further, thanks.

Pussy is the name of the band. "Plays" is just the album title. Moonkyte is from 1971 so clearly not too early. 


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - June 07 2018 at 17:45
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^ And they are barely protoprog, really just a psych band and a fairly typical one.
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^ From what I understand, the p word band is similar to early Pink Floyd(ie Barrett era and maybe just after that but pre Ummagumma).
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Welllll, sorta.  They kinda embody the early Brit-psych sound.
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Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

maybe Vanilla Fudge?
Zappa?
Deep Purple (Evans era)

Clearly, Deep Purple (Evans era) were remarkably progressive!!  Check them out in this 1968 video....



*ahem!*  You are missing a real proto-prog treat if you don't watch this Deep Purple video!!  LOL
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I think most people on here would agree that for the most part full blown prog didn't really happen until the KC debut. There were possibly a few exceptions before that such as the Nice but as a full blown genre I think it's safe to say that ITCOTCK is the one that kicked the doors down. 

Consensus: ItCotCK was the first true REALIZATION of the progressive rock album. 

Album contenders before that was at the CONCEPTUALIZATION stage.

I think a big part of that is the fact that Court was relatively successful and so more people knew about it. It's hard to be an influential album when it doesn't reach a lot of ears. Court while not super huge like say DSOTM or even as big as Fragile was successful enough for enough people to hear it and say to themselves "wait, what the heck is this?"

Agreed. REALIZATION requires an audience (buyers/customers, sellers/providers, musicians) gradually beginning to understand or REALIZE that there's a new genre in town they did not know or notice before.

Thanks for the input. It provides a better basis for the definition of the various stages of prog development.
I like it, but I find it difficult to believe that the Beatles, who have been getting a lot of press in the PA pages recently, would agree that Sgt. Pepper's was a CONCEPULAZATON and not a fully realized musical venture, hence a REALIZATION of what they intended, as ad hoc as some of the music and album themes actually were.

There's often a mismatch between views of the creator/artist and the listener/consumer of the art (cf. REALIZATION vs. CONCEPTUALIZATION). At the onset of recording Sgt. Pepper, the Beatles had a CONCEPT (concept album) but ended up realizing a piece of art that deviated from that concept. Yet, the album led to ideas and concepts of new directions in music in the right minds. Hence, the relegation of Sgt. Pepper to the IDEATION or CONCEPTUALIZATION phase of prog.


Edited by earlyprog - June 08 2018 at 02:43
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