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The origins of progressive rock (proto-prog)

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Topic: The origins of progressive rock (proto-prog)
Posted By: earlyprog
Subject: The origins of progressive rock (proto-prog)
Date Posted: June 06 2018 at 02:09
AN INTRODUCTION TO THE ORIGINS OF PROGRESSIVE ROCK (PROTO-PROG).

Part one: Proto-prog and fullblown prog.

‘Progressive’ as a cultural phenomenon was first expressed in recorded popular music around 1964 via ‘progressive’ segments of songs (for instance, Animals, Beatles, Yardbirds, Who, Beach Boys) followed by entire progressive songs in 1966 (Soft Machine, Jimi Hendrix, Pink Floyd, Doors, Beatles) and entire progressive rock (a.k.a. prog) albums in 1968 (such as The Nice ‘Ars longa vita Brevis’, East Of Eden 'Mercator Projected', Moody Blues 'On the Threshold of a Dream', Caravan 'Caravan' (?), HP Lovecraft 'II' (?)). However, on the live scene Soft Machine and Pink Floyd were playing entire prog gigs as early as 1966.

In Denmark and other countries outside the UK and the US, progressive rock often developed at a slower pace.

In can be helpful to describe the development of progressive rock and any of it’s genres on a song and album basis by a stage model including research, ideation, conceptualization, realization, commercialization and operation. The three former stages define proto-prog, the latter fullblown prog.

On the song basis, Pink Floyd, Procol Harum, The Doors and others successfully reached the commercialization stage around 1967 while as an album genre, prog would not reach the realization stage before 1969’s ‘In the Court of the Crimson King’ by King Crimson and the commercialization stage a year later.

(Part 2 and subsequent parts deal with advances in technology and societal changes that supported the early development of progressive rock.)


Part two: The musical instruments, the instrumentalists and the producers.

Integration of musical instruments from jazz (brass instruments, the Hammond organ etc.), European classical music (string and woodwind instruments e.g. the clavichord and harpsichord but also the harmonium), Indian classical music (e.g. the sitar), electronic music (the Theremin, Clavioline, electroacoustic tape music, Musique Concrète, electronic generators etc.), blues and folk music (e.g. the 12-string guitar) into popular music in the 60s i.e. R&B, beat and rock, as well as the introduction of new (electronic) musical instruments such as the mellotron and moog synthesizer are prominent features in the development of progressive rock. (An example of instrument integration: the use of Harpsichord by Jimi Hendrix in 'Burning of the Midnight Lamp'.)


In addition, the use of the recording studio as a musical instrument (recall Joe Meek and Abbey Road Studios) plays an important role.

The producer would also become an important component of and have a significant effect on the music. In passing we mention Joe Meek, George Martin, Brian Wilson, Chris Blackwell, Teo Macero, Norman Smith and Johnny Reimar.

Also, the players or instrumentalists such as the keyboardist (Keith Emerson), the guitarist (Steve Howe) and the bassist (Chris Squire) would fill larger roles resulting in less lyrics (and perhaps melody) oriented music with increased focus on instrumental passages and the proficiency of the instrumentalist. By adding instrumentalists from genres outside popular music the group would become enlarged by musicians from e.g. jazz (e.g. Burnin Red Ivanhoe) and classical music (The Beatles).




Replies:
Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: June 06 2018 at 02:12
Feel free to suggest references (songs, albums, musical instruments, instrumetalists, producers etc.) and add comments Hug


Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: June 06 2018 at 02:20
maybe Vanilla Fudge?
Zappa?
Deep Purple (Evans era)


Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: June 06 2018 at 02:24
while as an album genre, prog would not reach the realization stage before 1969’s ‘In the Court of the Crimson King’ by King Crimson and the commercialization stage a year later.
 
Procol Harum released Shine On Brightly over year before, there is "In Held Twas In I" that I think is fullblooded prog epic, also prog elements on the other songs in album. Also, there is mention about 1968 as a year of prog albums (specially the Nice Ars Longa Vita Brevis also has one side long epic), but not anything about that Procol Harum great album.


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 06 2018 at 04:28
I would definitely mention Zappa/s (MOI) "Freak Out" as well as the Moody Blues "Days of Future Passed" from proto as well as the studio experiments of the Beatles. There is a lot to canvas. 

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Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: June 06 2018 at 05:15
^Also Zappa´s Absolutely Free, it´s maybe the first prog album (specially first side).


Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: June 06 2018 at 09:12
Certainly Procol Harum as Mortte mentioned but the first two both qualify....and the first Nice...Emerlist Davjack also...Moody Blues of course.....early Traffic imo.....and there are many obscure and one hit wonders that released very interesting things from 68-70...like East Of Eden that was mentioned above....the PA proto prog page lists some of them.
Spirit were doing interesting things even before 12 Dreams was released.
I always enjoyed Touch...sadly they only did the one LP.
And many of the Brit psych-rock things were crossing over into early prog back then....The Move...Pussy Plays....Moonkyte...Andromeda....


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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin


Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: June 06 2018 at 11:26
Also really much proto-prog on great Love´s Forever Changes-album. I like much Spirit 60-70 begin albums too!


Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: June 06 2018 at 12:42
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

maybe Vanilla Fudge?
Zappa?
Deep Purple (Evans era)

'Renaissance' by Vanilla Fudge contains a variety of genres including R&B ('All in your Mind', 'Look of Love'), US Psyche ('The Sky cried- when I was a Boy', 'Thoughts') and a mixture of symphonic and psyche (the remainder of the album). Hence, not a fullblown prog album IMO.

Evans-era DP albums: proto-prog although there nmay be a few fullblown prog tracks that slip my mind at the moment - will have to check.


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: June 06 2018 at 15:19
I think most people on here would agree that for the most part full blown prog didn't really happen until the KC debut. There were possibly a few exceptions before that such as the Nice but as a full blown genre I think it's safe to say that ITCOTCK is the one that kicked the doors down. 


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: June 06 2018 at 16:15
To me the question is why rock 'n roll?--  why did rock progress so fully when pop and blues and folk and even jazz were generally stagnant and fixed in place.   What properties did rock have that allowed such growth?   And was it the era, or the music itself?   It's easy to say this artist or that artist were the "first", "pioneering", "seminal", all the recorded evidence is there to be analyzed and noted as influential.   But what caused the incredible rise of rock as art and its unexpected triumph, both commercially and creatively? ~




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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy


Posted By: fredyair
Date Posted: June 06 2018 at 16:44
Like they say, you hit the nail on the head. There was a stirring revolution in many areas of society, sexual, civil liberties, anti war movements, women liberation, etc, people were experimenting with mind bending drugs and at the same time the transistor revolution in electronics was connecting the world more closely than ever, creating new ways of communicating and expressing itself. Music couldn't stay away from it, and rock was the new kid in the block, eager to separate itself from the rest of popular music. I think that's the cocktail that brought us prog music.

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Long live Progresive music!


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: June 06 2018 at 18:10
^ I've also considered the possibility that the rock format, in its simple and untrained structure and nature, was primed for growth and ripe for a big shot of creative energy.   Of course, marijuana didn't hurt, either.




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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: June 06 2018 at 18:36
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

To me the question is why rock 'n roll?--  why did rock progress so fully when pop and blues and folk and even jazz were generally stagnant and fixed in place.   What properties did rock have that allowed such growth?   And was it the era, or the music itself?   It's easy to say this artist or that artist were the "first", "pioneering", "seminal", all the recorded evidence is there to be analyzed and noted as influential.   But what caused the incredible rise of rock as art and its unexpected triumph, both commercially and creatively? ~



I would guess that jazz and the blues had been around for several decades and were entering their later life stage of creativity whereas rock was young, full of energy and was the music that attracted the creative youth to express themselves. Pop, jazz and blues didn't really go away, they were simply vacuumed up and inserted into rock's DNA in order to create all kinds of interesting musical monsters that we all love today Star


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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: June 06 2018 at 19:37
^Exactly--  blues and folk and pop and jazz (and let's not forget classical) didn't incorporate rock, rock incorporated them.   But rock 'n roll seems a wholly unlikely depository for all the music forms that came before it.





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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy


Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: June 06 2018 at 20:11
I’m always one to give Zappa and the MOI credit as being the first, but determining the first is not the same as determining the “origin”. For that we need to know who was influenced by who. Zappa was a long way from the center of Prog. He did play at least once over Interstellar Overdrive with post-Barrett Floyd. He did do some work with the LSO (I’m not actually sure when). What other influence did Zappa have on the English underground? Zappa’s band members after leaving the MOI tended to go back to Jazz, Chamber Music or other obscurity. Few bands other than Beefheart were an offshoot of the MOI. The Genesis folks were heavily influenced by the Nice. I myself am not sure what other acts were. Tull influenced a segment of Prog, but not more than a segment. The Wild Flowers and Soft Machine were early occupiers of the underground and yielded numerous offshoot bands. King Crimson seem to have influenced many. On the other hand, much like the MOI, in spite of the number band members who came and went, they did little to expand the number of bands.



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A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: June 06 2018 at 20:56
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^Exactly--  blues and folk and pop and jazz (and let's not forget classical) didn't incorporate rock, rock incorporated them.   But rock 'n roll seems a wholly unlikely depository for all the music forms that came before it.




I would say it was a matter of convenience. It was what was popular so therefore it simply became the musical canvass to paint upon. If rock was put head to head with every genre on the planet without being popular at the time, then perhaps some other genre would've been the fertile breeding ground. I would think it was simply a crossroads of coincidences where rock was a popular genre at the time when musical globalization went viral.


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Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: June 06 2018 at 23:11
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

maybe Vanilla Fudge?
Zappa?
Deep Purple (Evans era)

Clearly, Deep Purple (Evans era) were remarkably progressive!!  Check them out in this 1968 video....




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I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!!


Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: June 07 2018 at 02:41
Originally posted by Mortte Mortte wrote:

while as an album genre, prog would not reach the realization stage before 1969’s ‘In the Court of the Crimson King’ by King Crimson and the commercialization stage a year later.
 
Procol Harum released Shine On Brightly over year before, there is "In Held Twas In I" that I think is fullblooded prog epic, also prog elements on the other songs in album. Also, there is mention about 1968 as a year of prog albums (specially the Nice Ars Longa Vita Brevis also has one side long epic), but not anything about that Procol Harum great album.

It's always debatable whether an early PA listed album is full blown prog. 'Shine on brightly' has full songs and segments of songs that are prog (successful genre integration) the rest is R&B, blues. 


Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: June 07 2018 at 03:03
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Certainly Procol Harum as Mortte mentioned but the first two both qualify....and the first Nice...Emerlist Davjack also...Moody Blues of course.....early Traffic imo.....and there are many obscure and one hit wonders that released very interesting things from 68-70...like East Of Eden that was mentioned above....the PA proto prog page lists some of them.
Spirit were doing interesting things even before 12 Dreams was released.
I always enjoyed Touch...sadly they only did the one LP.
And many of the Brit psych-rock things were crossing over into early prog back then....The Move...Pussy Plays....Moonkyte...Andromeda....

Agreed. Of the latter, Touch and Spirit are certainly worth analyzing for their prog worthiness. I will investigate Pussy Plays and Moonkyte further, thanks.


Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: June 07 2018 at 03:16
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I think most people on here would agree that for the most part full blown prog didn't really happen until the KC debut. There were possibly a few exceptions before that such as the Nice but as a full blown genre I think it's safe to say that ITCOTCK is the one that kicked the doors down. 

Consensus: ItCotCK was the first true REALIZATION of the progressive rock album. 

Album contenders before that was at the CONCEPTUALIZATION stage.


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 07 2018 at 04:12
I don't think we can have a proto prog discussion without mentioning the mellotron. This taped sampling system was a key and gateway into early prog with it's constantly out of tune and slightly slowed down spacy sound. It allowed several proto proggers to venture into more complex orchestral type arrangements which later led to the use of Moog synths and partial to full orchestral accompaniment.

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Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: June 07 2018 at 08:55
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I don't think we can have a proto prog discussion without mentioning the mellotron. This taped sampling system was a key and gateway into early prog with it's constantly out of tune and slightly slowed down spacy sound. It allowed several proto proggers to venture into more complex orchestral type arrangements which later led to the use of Moog synths and partial to full orchestral accompaniment.

Of course, no proto-prog discussion w/o mentining the mellotron.

I did mention it in the OP/blog Wink


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: June 07 2018 at 09:37
Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I think most people on here would agree that for the most part full blown prog didn't really happen until the KC debut. There were possibly a few exceptions before that such as the Nice but as a full blown genre I think it's safe to say that ITCOTCK is the one that kicked the doors down. 

Consensus: ItCotCK was the first true REALIZATION of the progressive rock album. 

Album contenders before that was at the CONCEPTUALIZATION stage.

I think a big part of that is the fact that Court was relatively successful and so more people knew about it. It's hard to be an influential album when it doesn't reach a lot of ears. Court while not super huge like say DSOTM or even as big as Fragile was successful enough for enough people to hear it and say to themselves "wait, what the heck is this?"


Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: June 07 2018 at 09:39
Related image

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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 07 2018 at 10:39
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Related image
Wow! A picture of me in my first band! I'm in the back line 2nd from the right playing an uggiddi stick with a string bender. Good times, man. Good times.


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 07 2018 at 10:44
Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I don't think we can have a proto prog discussion without mentioning the mellotron. This taped sampling system was a key and gateway into early prog with it's constantly out of tune and slightly slowed down spacy sound. It allowed several proto proggers to venture into more complex orchestral type arrangements which later led to the use of Moog synths and partial to full orchestral accompaniment.

Of course, no proto-prog discussion w/o mentining the mellotron.

I did mention it in the OP/blog Wink
oh, then let me rephrase that. I think the mellotron should be your starting point with harpsichord, organ, etc. as supporters that briefly made staring roles in the music, like the Hendrix song you mentioned.

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Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: June 07 2018 at 11:15
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I think most people on here would agree that for the most part full blown prog didn't really happen until the KC debut. There were possibly a few exceptions before that such as the Nice but as a full blown genre I think it's safe to say that ITCOTCK is the one that kicked the doors down. 

Consensus: ItCotCK was the first true REALIZATION of the progressive rock album. 

Album contenders before that was at the CONCEPTUALIZATION stage.

I think a big part of that is the fact that Court was relatively successful and so more people knew about it. It's hard to be an influential album when it doesn't reach a lot of ears. Court while not super huge like say DSOTM or even as big as Fragile was successful enough for enough people to hear it and say to themselves "wait, what the heck is this?"

Agreed. REALIZATION requires an audience (buyers/customers, sellers/providers, musicians) gradually beginning to understand or REALIZE that there's a new genre in town they did not know or notice before.

Thanks for the input. It provides a better basis for the definition of the various stages of prog development.


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 07 2018 at 12:51
Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I think most people on here would agree that for the most part full blown prog didn't really happen until the KC debut. There were possibly a few exceptions before that such as the Nice but as a full blown genre I think it's safe to say that ITCOTCK is the one that kicked the doors down. 

Consensus: ItCotCK was the first true REALIZATION of the progressive rock album. 

Album contenders before that was at the CONCEPTUALIZATION stage.

I think a big part of that is the fact that Court was relatively successful and so more people knew about it. It's hard to be an influential album when it doesn't reach a lot of ears. Court while not super huge like say DSOTM or even as big as Fragile was successful enough for enough people to hear it and say to themselves "wait, what the heck is this?"

Agreed. REALIZATION requires an audience (buyers/customers, sellers/providers, musicians) gradually beginning to understand or REALIZE that there's a new genre in town they did not know or notice before.

Thanks for the input. It provides a better basis for the definition of the various stages of prog development.
I like it, but I find it difficult to believe that the Beatles, who have been getting a lot of press in the PA pages recently, would agree that Sgt. Pepper's was a CONCEPULAZATON and not a fully realized musical venture, hence a REALIZATION of what they intended, as ad hoc as some of the music and album themes actually were.

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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.


Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: June 07 2018 at 13:11
Related image[/QUOTE]Wow! A picture of me in my first band! I'm in the back line 2nd from the right playing an uggiddi stick with a string bender. Good times, man. Good times. [/QUOTE]

LOLLOLClap


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Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: June 07 2018 at 14:03
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

To me the question is why rock 'n roll?--  why did rock progress so fully when pop and blues and folk and even jazz were generally stagnant and fixed in place.   What properties did rock have that allowed such growth?   And was it the era, or the music itself?   It's easy to say this artist or that artist were the "first", "pioneering", "seminal", all the recorded evidence is there to be analyzed and noted as influential.   But what caused the incredible rise of rock as art and its unexpected triumph, both commercially and creatively? ~



Above, siLLy puPPy gave some good answers to your amazement.

I think rock (still in it's undeveloped infancy) was inherently susceptible to adjustments and modifications (development) under the influence by the right people, technology and societal changes. The present blog lies within that - broader - framework, rather than focusing entirely on the susceptibility of rock to 'prog influences'.

Thanks for bringing the factor out in the open.




Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: June 07 2018 at 14:10
Originally posted by fredyair fredyair wrote:

Like they say, you hit the nail on the head. There was a stirring revolution in many areas of society, sexual, civil liberties, anti war movements, women liberation, etc, people were experimenting with mind bending drugs and at the same time the transistor revolution in electronics was connecting the world more closely than ever, creating new ways of communicating and expressing itself. Music couldn't stay away from it, and rock was the new kid in the block, eager to separate itself from the rest of popular music. I think that's the cocktail that brought us prog music.

Clap

In will return to these influences in later additions to the blog (around part 5).


Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: June 07 2018 at 14:18
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

To me the question is why rock 'n roll?--  why did rock progress so fully when pop and blues and folk and even jazz were generally stagnant and fixed in place.   What properties did rock have that allowed such growth?   And was it the era, or the music itself?   It's easy to say this artist or that artist were the "first", "pioneering", "seminal", all the recorded evidence is there to be analyzed and noted as influential.   But what caused the incredible rise of rock as art and its unexpected triumph, both commercially and creatively? ~



I would guess that jazz and the blues had been around for several decades and were entering their later life stage of creativity whereas rock was young, full of energy and was the music that attracted the creative youth to express themselves. Pop, jazz and blues didn't really go away, they were simply vacuumed up and inserted into rock's DNA in order to create all kinds of interesting musical monsters that we all love today Star

Rock + creativity => prog

with creativity depending on the available technology, people and societal changes.


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: June 07 2018 at 17:45
Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Certainly Procol Harum as Mortte mentioned but the first two both qualify....and the first Nice...Emerlist Davjack also...Moody Blues of course.....early Traffic imo.....and there are many obscure and one hit wonders that released very interesting things from 68-70...like East Of Eden that was mentioned above....the PA proto prog page lists some of them.
Spirit were doing interesting things even before 12 Dreams was released.
I always enjoyed Touch...sadly they only did the one LP.
And many of the Brit psych-rock things were crossing over into early prog back then....The Move...Pussy Plays....Moonkyte...Andromeda....

Agreed. Of the latter, Touch and Spirit are certainly worth analyzing for their prog worthiness. I will investigate Pussy Plays and Moonkyte further, thanks.

Pussy is the name of the band. "Plays" is just the album title. Moonkyte is from 1971 so clearly not too early. 


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: June 07 2018 at 19:10
^ And they are barely protoprog, really just a psych band and a fairly typical one.



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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: June 07 2018 at 19:18
^ From what I understand, the p word band is similar to early Pink Floyd(ie Barrett era and maybe just after that but pre Ummagumma).


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: June 07 2018 at 19:40
Welllll, sorta.  They kinda embody the early Brit-psych sound.


-------------
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy


Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: June 07 2018 at 20:41
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

maybe Vanilla Fudge?
Zappa?
Deep Purple (Evans era)

Clearly, Deep Purple (Evans era) were remarkably progressive!!  Check them out in this 1968 video....



*ahem!*  You are missing a real proto-prog treat if you don't watch this Deep Purple video!!  LOL


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I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!!


Posted By: hellogoodbye
Date Posted: June 08 2018 at 00:04
Rock is a stone thrown at the surface of a lake, a founder of growing circles, of age-old waves of memories.

Emilio Duckinson.


Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: June 08 2018 at 02:38
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I think most people on here would agree that for the most part full blown prog didn't really happen until the KC debut. There were possibly a few exceptions before that such as the Nice but as a full blown genre I think it's safe to say that ITCOTCK is the one that kicked the doors down. 

Consensus: ItCotCK was the first true REALIZATION of the progressive rock album. 

Album contenders before that was at the CONCEPTUALIZATION stage.

I think a big part of that is the fact that Court was relatively successful and so more people knew about it. It's hard to be an influential album when it doesn't reach a lot of ears. Court while not super huge like say DSOTM or even as big as Fragile was successful enough for enough people to hear it and say to themselves "wait, what the heck is this?"

Agreed. REALIZATION requires an audience (buyers/customers, sellers/providers, musicians) gradually beginning to understand or REALIZE that there's a new genre in town they did not know or notice before.

Thanks for the input. It provides a better basis for the definition of the various stages of prog development.
I like it, but I find it difficult to believe that the Beatles, who have been getting a lot of press in the PA pages recently, would agree that Sgt. Pepper's was a CONCEPULAZATON and not a fully realized musical venture, hence a REALIZATION of what they intended, as ad hoc as some of the music and album themes actually were.

There's often a mismatch between views of the creator/artist and the listener/consumer of the art (cf. REALIZATION vs. CONCEPTUALIZATION). At the onset of recording Sgt. Pepper, the Beatles had a CONCEPT (concept album) but ended up realizing a piece of art that deviated from that concept. Yet, the album led to ideas and concepts of new directions in music in the right minds. Hence, the relegation of Sgt. Pepper to the IDEATION or CONCEPTUALIZATION phase of prog.


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 08 2018 at 04:02
Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I think most people on here would agree that for the most part full blown prog didn't really happen until the KC debut. There were possibly a few exceptions before that such as the Nice but as a full blown genre I think it's safe to say that ITCOTCK is the one that kicked the doors down. 

Consensus: ItCotCK was the first true REALIZATION of the progressive rock album. 

Album contenders before that was at the CONCEPTUALIZATION stage.

I think a big part of that is the fact that Court was relatively successful and so more people knew about it. It's hard to be an influential album when it doesn't reach a lot of ears. Court while not super huge like say DSOTM or even as big as Fragile was successful enough for enough people to hear it and say to themselves "wait, what the heck is this?"

Agreed. REALIZATION requires an audience (buyers/customers, sellers/providers, musicians) gradually beginning to understand or REALIZE that there's a new genre in town they did not know or notice before.

Thanks for the input. It provides a better basis for the definition of the various stages of prog development.
I like it, but I find it difficult to believe that the Beatles, who have been getting a lot of press in the PA pages recently, would agree that Sgt. Pepper's was a CONCEPULAZATON and not a fully realized musical venture, hence a REALIZATION of what they intended, as ad hoc as some of the music and album themes actually were.

There's often a mismatch between views of the creator/artist and the listener/consumer of the art (cf. REALIZATION vs. CONCEPTUALIZATION). At the onset of recording Sgt. Pepper, the Beatles had a CONCEPT (concept album) but ended up realizing a piece of art that deviated from that concept. Yet, the album led to ideas and concepts of new directions in music in the right minds. Hence, the relegation of Sgt. Pepper to the IDEATION or CONCEPTUALIZATION phase of prog.
Got cha! Thumbs Up

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Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: June 08 2018 at 09:49
Originally posted by hellogoodbye hellogoodbye wrote:

Rock is a stone thrown at the surface of a lake, a founder of growing circles, of age-old waves of memories.

Emilio Duckinson.

Hello, helloGoodbye!

I was searching for a definition of ROCK and wasn't satisfied because I started to question that (fully realized) ROCK existed before (fully realized) PROG. I suppose you're saying that prog is one of the ripples that was generated by the rock thrown at the surface of the lake?

Goodbye (for now), helloGoodbye!


Posted By: jiminyCrikett
Date Posted: June 08 2018 at 10:31
Where would you guys put bands like Comus and Jan Dukes de Grey? I would say that they are extremely influencial to a lot of different music we listen to today but not popularly of course


Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: June 08 2018 at 11:18
^Well...they both get listed here as 'prog- folk'...which is I suppose a decent description.
Though to me at times they are more folky rock and not all that proggy.
Who do you think they influenced in the world of prog or are you limiting their influence to prog folk.?


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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin


Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: June 08 2018 at 11:22
Originally posted by jiminyCrikett jiminyCrikett wrote:

Where would you guys put bands like Comus and Jan Dukes de Grey? I would say that they are extremely influencial to a lot of different music we listen to today but not popularly of course

I confess early Prog Folk is not my expertise so if you're asking if any of these artists delivered the first fullblown Prog Folk album, I 'surrender'.

SteveG is THE EXPERT into this.

SteveG?........


Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: June 08 2018 at 11:35
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I think most people on here would agree that for the most part full blown prog didn't really happen until the KC debut. There were possibly a few exceptions before that such as the Nice but as a full blown genre I think it's safe to say that ITCOTCK is the one that kicked the doors down. 

Consensus: ItCotCK was the first true REALIZATION of the progressive rock album. 

Album contenders before that was at the CONCEPTUALIZATION stage.

I think a big part of that is the fact that Court was relatively successful and so more people knew about it. It's hard to be an influential album when it doesn't reach a lot of ears. Court while not super huge like say DSOTM or even as big as Fragile was successful enough for enough people to hear it and say to themselves "wait, what the heck is this?"

Agreed. REALIZATION requires an audience (buyers/customers, sellers/providers, musicians) gradually beginning to understand or REALIZE that there's a new genre in town they did not know or notice before.

Thanks for the input. It provides a better basis for the definition of the various stages of prog development.
I like it, but I find it difficult to believe that the Beatles, who have been getting a lot of press in the PA pages recently, would agree that Sgt. Pepper's was a CONCEPULAZATON and not a fully realized musical venture, hence a REALIZATION of what they intended, as ad hoc as some of the music and album themes actually were.

There's often a mismatch between views of the creator/artist and the listener/consumer of the art (cf. REALIZATION vs. CONCEPTUALIZATION). At the onset of recording Sgt. Pepper, the Beatles had a CONCEPT (concept album) but ended up realizing a piece of art that deviated from that concept. Yet, the album led to ideas and concepts of new directions in music in the right minds. Hence, the relegation of Sgt. Pepper to the IDEATION or CONCEPTUALIZATION phase of prog.
Got cha! Thumbs Up

Love you, Steve Heart

I was pleased to see you back a few years ago. We both left (or were left) and returned (insert a biblical reference here? LOL).


Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: June 08 2018 at 11:47
Is there a romance blooming on the forum...?

;)


-------------
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin


Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: June 08 2018 at 12:25
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Is there a romance blooming on the forum...?

;)

LOL

Just the usual late 60s s**** HeartHug


Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: June 08 2018 at 12:58
^Ok...fair enough.....  :)
Who are some of your favorite proto prog and early prog bands that are less well known...? I love some of those one hit wonders who did just an album or two.
for example...I'm a fan of Cressida, Spring, and Fantasy.


-------------
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin


Posted By: jiminyCrikett
Date Posted: June 08 2018 at 13:04
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

^Well...they both get listed here as 'prog- folk'...which is I suppose a decent description.
Though to me at times they are more folky rock and not all that proggy.
Who do you think they influenced in the world of prog or are you limiting their influence to prog folk.?

Although they are prog-folk, I would say that they are the beginnings of metal with their darker lyrics, and their use of a wide range of instruments, time signatures, lengthy pieces, and conceptual music all before the 70s had to influence the classic 70s proggers as well

*edit 
Just looked and I guess the two albums I would have said were influential were both in '71 so...
lol maybe they were more influential to metal than prog. But I'm sure that progressive artists, although they listened to the pop of the day, might have been more influenced by less known bands doing things before their time.


Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: June 08 2018 at 13:11
I can see some influence to 70's prog bands and I suppose many of these early prog acts listened to one another if they had a chance  ... but metal...? Bit of a stretch imho.

-------------
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin


Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: June 08 2018 at 13:11
Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by Mortte Mortte wrote:

while as an album genre, prog would not reach the realization stage before 1969’s ‘In the Court of the Crimson King’ by King Crimson and the commercialization stage a year later.
 
Procol Harum released Shine On Brightly over year before, there is "In Held Twas In I" that I think is fullblooded prog epic, also prog elements on the other songs in album. Also, there is mention about 1968 as a year of prog albums (specially the Nice Ars Longa Vita Brevis also has one side long epic), but not anything about that Procol Harum great album.

It's always debatable whether an early PA listed album is full blown prog. 'Shine on brightly' has full songs and segments of songs that are prog (successful genre integration) the rest is R&B, blues. 
Well, I think only true blues or R&B song in Shine On Brightly is "Wish Me Well". Have you really listened the whole album?


Posted By: jiminyCrikett
Date Posted: June 08 2018 at 13:17
I guess I always thought the dark nature of the lyrics and sound were influential to the entire metal scene but I have been wrong before haha


Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: June 08 2018 at 13:21
^ Early hard/rock /metal scene...? Like as early as Sabbath ,or are you talking about Iron Maiden and later bands like  Metallica....?
I wonder if any of the true metal bands ever listened to old obscure proggy folk...? That would be interesting to hear about. I always assumed that the metal bands were following in the footsteps of Sabbath and Maiden, etc...


-------------
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin


Posted By: jiminyCrikett
Date Posted: June 08 2018 at 13:32
I think Sabbath and them were about the same time, and Sabbath certainly had a greater influence on the genre I wouldn't contest that. I guess its a stretch to say all metal since I think thrash metal like Metallica wouldn't have been influenced by it. And that I'm not sure, I just know that when I listen to First Utterance (on youtube of course, shame its not on spotify) it sounds like they're trying to play metal just on the wrong instruments. And it very much works!

*edit - I definitely mean a darker metal than mainstream, of course


Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: June 08 2018 at 14:04
You should buy a copy on cd......I did when these old obscure albums were being released many years ago.
I have toyed around with getting an original on vinyl...for some collectors it's a holy grail album....worth over a grand in good shape. If I could find a cheap one for say $500....
;)


-------------
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin


Posted By: jiminyCrikett
Date Posted: June 08 2018 at 14:05
Sorry to get everything off topic though - as far as the prog scene, I feel like the psychedelic rock scene played more of a role in influencing progressive music than we realize, for instance the Clouds have been mentioned to have influenced Yes among others heavily. I think that seeing more mainstream acts succeed in pushing the boundaries of rock more primed the public for the emergence of prog rock than influencing the music (not that the beatles and such didn't influence prog, just that their influence on artists specifically might be overstated)


Posted By: jiminyCrikett
Date Posted: June 08 2018 at 14:11
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

You should buy a copy on cd......I did when these old obscure albums were being released many years ago.
I have toyed around with getting an original on vinyl...for some collectors it's a holy grail album....worth over a grand in good shape. If I could find a cheap one for say $500....
;)

That is a great idea, I think I will! I would already have it on vinyl if it wasn't so costly, maybe some day...


Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: June 08 2018 at 14:31
To Jiminy...I need to go back and listen to Clouds...I have that 2on1 cd release.....Scrapbook and Watercolour Days. I was not aware that Yes was influenced by them.

-------------
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 09 2018 at 05:56
Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I think most people on here would agree that for the most part full blown prog didn't really happen until the KC debut. There were possibly a few exceptions before that such as the Nice but as a full blown genre I think it's safe to say that ITCOTCK is the one that kicked the doors down. 

Consensus: ItCotCK was the first true REALIZATION of the progressive rock album. 

Album contenders before that was at the CONCEPTUALIZATION stage.

I think a big part of that is the fact that Court was relatively successful and so more people knew about it. It's hard to be an influential album when it doesn't reach a lot of ears. Court while not super huge like say DSOTM or even as big as Fragile was successful enough for enough people to hear it and say to themselves "wait, what the heck is this?"

Agreed. REALIZATION requires an audience (buyers/customers, sellers/providers, musicians) gradually beginning to understand or REALIZE that there's a new genre in town they did not know or notice before.

Thanks for the input. It provides a better basis for the definition of the various stages of prog development.
I like it, but I find it difficult to believe that the Beatles, who have been getting a lot of press in the PA pages recently, would agree that Sgt. Pepper's was a CONCEPULAZATON and not a fully realized musical venture, hence a REALIZATION of what they intended, as ad hoc as some of the music and album themes actually were.

There's often a mismatch between views of the creator/artist and the listener/consumer of the art (cf. REALIZATION vs. CONCEPTUALIZATION). At the onset of recording Sgt. Pepper, the Beatles had a CONCEPT (concept album) but ended up realizing a piece of art that deviated from that concept. Yet, the album led to ideas and concepts of new directions in music in the right minds. Hence, the relegation of Sgt. Pepper to the IDEATION or CONCEPTUALIZATION phase of prog.
Got cha! Thumbs Up

Love you, Steve Heart

I was pleased to see you back a few years ago. We both left (or were left) and returned (insert a biblical reference here? LOL).
Right back at ya, brother! We old cosmic psych rockers turned prog heads have to stick together!

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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.


Posted By: hellogoodbye
Date Posted: June 09 2018 at 16:13
I suppose you're saying that prog is one of the ripples that was generated by the rock thrown at the surface of the lake?

Exactly   


Posted By: jiminyCrikett
Date Posted: June 11 2018 at 07:55
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

To Jiminy...I need to go back and listen to Clouds...I have that 2on1 cd release.....Scrapbook and Watercolour Days. I was not aware that Yes was influenced by them.

I wasn't sure where I had heard about yes and decided to do some digging...

https://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/culture/music/interview-clouds-the-greatest-scottish-band-you-ve-never-heard-of-1-2234975

apparently A LOT of proggers loved these guys, not just Yes. And potentially stole from them. I need to listen to them more as well! Its hard to go back to the old stuff sometimes but so worth it


Posted By: Albert H
Date Posted: January 04 2019 at 07:09
Many British musicians would strongly argue that UK Prog began with Billy Ritchie and his band "1-2-3".  Their residency in late '66 and early '67 at the Marquee introduced musicians as diverse as Jon Anderson,  Jeff Lynne, Deep Purple, David Bowie and Keith Emerson to the idea of complex orchestrations played in extended works.

Unfortunately, there is little by way of recordings of this band - there are a couple of poor quality tape-recorded bootlegs - but they never really got into the studio in their original form.

In 1969, a change of management lead to a change of name.  They became "Clouds" and released two albums under that name.  Sadly, according to people (mostly musicians) who'd taken the time to seek them out in their original incarnation, "Clouds" was a shadow of the former band.  They allowed their management to push them into performing "more accessible", lighter "pop" material.

Billy Ritchie gave up the music business in disgust in 1972 or so. Ouch  Progressive music lost one of its greatest innovators.

It's worth reading "The ABC of 1-2-3 by Billy Ritchie himself, and  "The Story Of Clouds" by James P. Alexander.


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"Why is it humming?"<p>
"Because it doesn't know the words"


Posted By: miamiscot
Date Posted: January 04 2019 at 07:38
Billy Ritchie invented Prog.

I've heard that before.

It's not 100% false.



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