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Aussie-Byrd-Brother
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Posted: March 20 2018 at 12:20 |
Braka wrote:
If there's one PF album which I do consider overrated it's definitely The Wall. Compared with the other three albums from their classic period, I find it for the most part realtively musically unadventurous and straightforward. Most of the songs just have a few chords, often with the figure of Waters' one-note bass-line rumbling or plodding through them, ala 'One of these days'. And the concept? I know that by the late 70's Roger literally wanted to spit in the audience's faces, but I find it hard to generalise his problems into something more broadly meaningful to me.
It's still a good album, IMO, but I don't understand why people rate it above Dark side. |
Not sure if others feel the same way about `The Wall', but there's definitely a kind of....teenage rebellion/teenage angst/angry teenage boy/rites-of-passage thing about it. I don't know...I remember when I was going through high school so many kids thought it was dark, tortured, hardcore, and really edgy. Hell, I even probably thought that for a little moment! These days (I'm just over forty), I'll happily still play `Animals', `DSotM', `WYWH', `More' and the early psych stuff etc over and over, but `The Wall'....maybe once every few years now, and there's definitely parts of it that make me cringe now! It's an amazing concept, has plenty of drama and big moments, but it's also histrionic, unbelievably self-indulgent and lacks the subtlety of many of the albums before it, and it also sounds like a completely different band to the albums before it.
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Mortte
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Posted: March 20 2018 at 13:34 |
Braka wrote:
If there's one PF album which I do consider overrated it's definitely The Wall. Compared with the other three albums from their classic period, I find it for the most part realtively musically unadventurous and straightforward. Most of the songs just have a few chords, often with the figure of Waters' one-note bass-line rumbling or plodding through them, ala 'One of these days'. And the concept? I know that by the late 70's Roger literally wanted to spit in the audience's faces, but I find it hard to generalise his problems into something more broadly meaningful to me.
It's still a good album, IMO, but I don't understand why people rate it above Dark side.
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I donīt believe anyone put the Wall above Dark Side. As far as I know, the Wall is really hated among non-Pink Floyd fans and also more underrated than overrated also among many fans. There was just here Floyd album poll, where the Wall got one or two votes. Also your description about the Wall sounds you really havenīt listened it. Few chords? I find in the flesh, the Thin Ice, all Another Brick In the Walls, Mother, Goodbye Blue Sky, Young Lust, Hey You, Nobody Home, Vera, Comfortably Numb, Run Like Hell, Waiting for the Worms and Trial really great songs. And really the Wall isnīt just a story about Rogīs problems, it has much more larger and greater themes.
I donīt think any Floyd album is overrated.
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kenethlevine
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Posted: March 20 2018 at 14:05 |
I think it's overrated. I love Time but don't really care much for anything else on there. And even Time I never actually choose to listen to. I generally feel that way about WYWH, Animals and the Wall as well. Part of the problem was they got so overplayed that they lost all excitement for me before I could decide on my own if there was something to be excited about. I enjoy a lot of sad music but like a bit of light with the dark. Like my brother (who generally liked Floyd) said so well, albeit tongue in cheek, when referring to the depressive aspect, "No good can come from listening to them"
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Argo2112
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Posted: March 20 2018 at 14:14 |
I like Dark Side but yea, I think it may be a little overrated. I think it's great, don't get me wrong but in some circles I feel it gets a little too much hype.
Edited by Argo2112 - March 20 2018 at 14:14
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AFlowerKingCrimson
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Posted: March 20 2018 at 14:39 |
[As far as I remembered about that document, one meter of the popularity was sales in the US. As I said before, I believe the Genesis sales in eighties is a big base in the second place. And of course gap between Floyd & Genesis could be big. As far as I know, Jethro as sold well in the Us, thatīs the reason why it went over Yes.]
Well geez, you may as well say U2 or the Rolling Stones or Led Zeppelin or whoever was bigger than Yes which of course they were. If we are talking prog rock then you have to stick with the prog years so counting Genesis' eighties output as a way to point them as bigger doesn't really count. Yes were bigger than Genesis as a prog band. As for Jethro Tull how much of their albums were prog? You have to count the prog content. If we look at them as prog bands we might not even put PF in there but even if we do they would still be number one while number two would be Yes, followed by ELP then maybe JT then Genesis. That document might have the final say about over all album sales(then agains might not)but if we are talking about prog content within the band and how big each band is as a prog band then that's a different story.
Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - March 20 2018 at 14:40
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: March 20 2018 at 17:04 |
Upbeat Tango Monday wrote:
To say DSOTM was groundbreaking is absolute rubbish. It was a calculated effort, a formula: how to reach the most people without alienating listeners. Playing safe and being sterile on all fronts. Later came WYWH. A record that was 1/2 about trying to remember old Floyd and Syd, the other half was about DSOTM, their own Frankenstein: "we heard about the sell out"
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To call this comment uninformed gives a bad name to misinformation. Please, offer anything intelligible that shows DSotM was a calculated effort at being formulaic. One would be hard pressed to find any contemporary commentary anywhere that states Floyd sat down and came up with an easy-listening formula to sell a 45 million unit album, or to not alienate listenership -- that is utter garbage.
As I mentioned previously, when rock fans (there were no "prog" fans -- you listened to Floyd, Sabbath, Yes, Tull, Zeppelin, The Who, etc. because they were all great), including myself, first heard it in 1973, we realized this was something different and special. From the first spin you knew it was great, which is why it has been overplayed for the last 40+ years -- someone put the record on and never took it off the turntable since. No previous Floyd album was so complete and balanced, with a sonic aura that was hands down the best stereo experience at the time. Floyd upped the ante and produced something that, like the Beatles before them, left other bands scrambling to come close to achieving.
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twseel
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Posted: March 20 2018 at 18:12 |
^I sort of agree with Tango to the point that the chord sequences are so plain and tension is constantly relased so quickly that I can barely get any musical value out of it, though I can kind of appreciate how smooth they managed to make the whole thing sound.
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ReactioninG
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Posted: March 20 2018 at 19:44 |
Not overrated. Truly a phenomenal album. I think the overrated one in their classic catalogue is actually Wish You Were Here. It's very good, but not quite as good as DSOTM, Animals, or the Wall.
Dark Side is perfect, functioning as a complete unity when listened to from beginning to end. If any criticism could exist, I suppose it would be of the vagueness of the social criticisms it offers and the slight psychedelic indulgence the tracks have compared to subsequent albums. I do consider Animals-Wall and perhaps Final Cut to be superior by a hair. Not sure if they are as majestic as Dark Side though.
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micky
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Posted: March 20 2018 at 19:50 |
ReactioninG wrote:
Not overrated. Truly a phenomenal album. I think the overrated one in their classic catalogue is actually Wish You Were Here. It's very good, but not quite as good as DSOTM, Animals, or the Wall.
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that is the reason why these overrated discussions are usually trash... it has NOTHING to do with tastes.
It has everything to do with understanding rock(prog) music and its evoluation. No one in their right mind would ever say that WYWH or Animals were on the same level as DSOTM. One might enjoy them more.. and that is cool. More power to those that do.. but to express the opinion they are as great of albums does not mark the albums as overrated.. it just marks those who have that opinion as ignorant and unable to evaluate music.. only parrot what they like and don't like.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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HackettFan
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Posted: March 20 2018 at 23:18 |
SteveG wrote:
^ A good question from HF, as usual. I can only guess that aside from it's commercial breakthrough, DSotM established a type of PF musical formula and theatrical musings that extended over into their following albums. |
First off, Thank you. Second why would we not extend the same qualities to Meddle?
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A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
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Braka
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Posted: March 20 2018 at 23:22 |
SteveG wrote:
Braka wrote:
If this hasn't already been said, just for the record, it's perfectly possible for an album to be overrated and still be a masterpiece. And i wouldn't take any notice of NME, who were cynical jerks and became unbearable once new wave arrived. As for Rolling Stone, every time Bob Dylan puts out an album of himself gargling they call it the best thing he's done since Highway 61.
Personally I think 'Dark Side' is clearly the best Floyd album. It would take forever to go through each album and try to analyse why, but I just think it's the album where they defined and perfected their sound in the same moment. Waters has more or less indicated that they may as well have broken up after it, and Gilmour even admitted he may have been right.
If there's one PF album which I do consider overrated it's definitely The Wall. Compared with the other three albums from their classic period, I find it for the most part realtively musically unadventurous and straightforward. Most of the songs just have a few chords, often with the figure of Waters' one-note bass-line rumbling or plodding through them, ala 'One of these days'. And the concept? I know that by the late 70's Roger literally wanted to spit in the audience's faces, but I find it hard to generalise his problems into something more broadly meaningful to me.
It's still a good album, IMO, but I don't understand why people rate it above Dark side.
| Best post in this thread! |
Cheers. I was rather expecting to have everyone jump on me ;)
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Mortte
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Posted: March 20 2018 at 23:59 |
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
[As far as I remembered about that document, one meter of the popularity was sales in the US. As I said before, I believe the Genesis sales in eighties is a big base in the second place. And of course gap between Floyd & Genesis could be big. As far as I know, Jethro as sold well in the Us, thatīs the reason why it went over Yes.]
Well geez, you may as well say U2 or the Rolling Stones or Led Zeppelin or whoever was bigger than Yes which of course they were. If we are talking prog rock then you have to stick with the prog years so counting Genesis' eighties output as a way to point them as bigger doesn't really count. Yes were bigger than Genesis as a prog band. As for Jethro Tull how much of their albums were prog? You have to count the prog content. If we look at them as prog bands we might not even put PF in there but even if we do they would still be number one while number two would be Yes, followed by ELP then maybe JT then Genesis. That document might have the final say about over all album sales(then agains might not)but if we are talking about prog content within the band and how big each band is as a prog band then that's a different story.
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I think this discussion is going nowhere anymore. Itīs that stupid "I think that one is prog and that one is not". U2, Stones & Zeppelin naturally are not commonly thought progbands, although Zeppelin are in pa base and yes, there are some prog at least their albums after Led Zeppelin III. But not saying Jethro progband...I canīt just carry on this. Of course the progsounding prog, I mean what people commonly thing about prog is Yes & Genesis, but then there are many bands that you should leave out prog, I think you can then say symphony prog is only true prog (then King Crimson is also just some odd experimental jazz or something else you really should not listen if youīre true progfan).
And I think that document was "What progbands have been the most succesfull in their career" not "What progbands was most succesfull in the seventies". But maybe you should write your complaints to BBC about poor document?
Maybe I should put text under my posts "I only dream progdreams".
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Mortte
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Posted: March 21 2018 at 00:07 |
micky wrote:
ReactioninG wrote:
Not overrated. Truly a phenomenal album. I think the overrated one in their classic catalogue is actually Wish You Were Here. It's very good, but not quite as good as DSOTM, Animals, or the Wall.
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that is the reason why these overrated discussions are usually trash... it has NOTHING to do with tastes.
It has everything to do with understanding rock(prog) music and its evoluation. No one in their right mind would ever say that WYWH or Animals were on the same level as DSOTM. One might enjoy them more.. and that is cool. More power to those that do.. but to express the opinion they are as great of albums does not mark the albums as overrated.. it just marks those who have that opinion as ignorant and unable to evaluate music.. only parrot what they like and don't like. |
Really have to agree you guys fully! This thread would make much more sense, if the tittle had been: "I donīt like DSoTM. Anyone else who donīt like it?" I really hope no-one starts anymore these "Is this classic album overrated"-threads. If do, I donīt think I donīt waste my time anymore on those.
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Mortte
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Posted: March 21 2018 at 00:16 |
HackettFan wrote:
SteveG wrote:
^ A good question from HF, as usual. I can only guess that aside from it's commercial breakthrough, DSotM established a type of PF musical formula and theatrical musings that extended over into their following albums. | First off, Thank you. Second why would we not extend the same qualities to Meddle? |
I really try this one time. DSoTM is superior to the other Floyd-albums that in this album they succeeded to balance their musical ambitions, perfection recording, meaningful lyrics, all of their greatest qualities. For example in there are not such pieces that Fearless, San Tropez and Seamus are in Meddle (I like them, but theyīre just much mediocre than other stuff in Meddle). Also they succeeded to make it their bestseller still not giving up anything about their ambitious that time. DSoTM is really anymore my personal favourite album, but really would ever said it overrated comparing any other Floyd album. They succeeded best all the way in that album and never succeeded at least artistically as great after that.
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SteveG
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Posted: March 21 2018 at 03:39 |
HackettFan wrote:
SteveG wrote:
^ A good question from HF, as usual. I can only guess that aside from it's commercial breakthrough, DSotM established a type of PF musical formula and theatrical musings that extended over into their following albums. | First off, Thank you. Second why would we not extend the same qualities to Meddle? |
I feel that with Meddle, particular with Echos, Floyd was still perfecting their musical formula. And aside from Echos, the songs on Meddle are just not as strong musically as well as lyrically to those on DSotM. As others have said, its all about subjective opinions. So your view is as valid as mine.
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Frenetic Zetetic
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Posted: March 21 2018 at 10:26 |
EDIT: mobile destroyed my awesome post.
Edited by Frenetic Zetetic - March 21 2018 at 10:32
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"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
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dr wu23
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Posted: March 21 2018 at 10:32 |
^ Good points Steve.....to me Meddle was to a large degree a transition album between the old and the newer Floyd (not related to Barrett...). I think WYWH and Animals are as good on a production and playing level...but I simply like the songs better on DSOTM.
Regarding ratings...and as I said earlier that most iconic albums tend to be a bit overrated due to fans of specific bands skewing those ratings.
Regarding Mick's comments.... DSOTM 4.6 WYWH 4.62 Animals 4.52 and a large number of diverse ratings...over 3000 opinions in each case....so it appears that subjectivity. ie taste is indeed a critical factor.
Edited by dr wu23 - March 21 2018 at 10:47
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
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AFlowerKingCrimson
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Posted: March 21 2018 at 12:24 |
Mortte wrote:
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
[As far as I remembered about that document, one meter of the popularity was sales in the US. As I said before, I believe the Genesis sales in eighties is a big base in the second place. And of course gap between Floyd & Genesis could be big. As far as I know, Jethro as sold well in the Us, thatīs the reason why it went over Yes.]
Well geez, you may as well say U2 or the Rolling Stones or Led Zeppelin or whoever was bigger than Yes which of course they were. If we are talking prog rock then you have to stick with the prog years so counting Genesis' eighties output as a way to point them as bigger doesn't really count. Yes were bigger than Genesis as a prog band. As for Jethro Tull how much of their albums were prog? You have to count the prog content. If we look at them as prog bands we might not even put PF in there but even if we do they would still be number one while number two would be Yes, followed by ELP then maybe JT then Genesis. That document might have the final say about over all album sales(then agains might not)but if we are talking about prog content within the band and how big each band is as a prog band then that's a different story.
| I think this discussion is going nowhere anymore. Itīs that stupid "I think that one is prog and that one is not". U2, Stones & Zeppelin naturally are not commonly thought progbands, although Zeppelin are in pa base and yes, there are some prog at least their albums after Led Zeppelin III. But not saying Jethro progband...I canīt just carry on this. Of course the progsounding prog, I mean what people commonly thing about prog is Yes & Genesis, but then there are many bands that you should leave out prog, I think you can then say symphony prog is only true prog (then King Crimson is also just some odd experimental jazz or something else you really should not listen if youīre true progfan).
And I think that document was "What progbands have been the most succesfull in their career" not "What progbands was most succesfull in the seventies". But maybe you should write your complaints to BBC about poor document?
Maybe I should put text under my posts "I only dream progdreams". |
Then don't continue the conversation. Listen, I've done the research on sales and the RIAA. I know which prog albums have gone gold and so on. Ok? For these bands their prog careers were mostly in the seventies. Why should we lump "taking it all too hard" or "in too deep" or "owner of a lonely heart" etc in with the prog stuff. If we go by their criterion that if they are a prog band and we'll count all their stuff then yeah I can see that but it's pointless and dumb and that's why I mentioned the other non prog bands. Even some of them had proggy stuff too anyway. No, I won't write to them why don't you write to them and tell them how much their documentary means to you and how you think they have the final say on the things. I sure don't.
Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - March 21 2018 at 12:26
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ProfPanglos
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Posted: March 21 2018 at 16:36 |
Interesting comments. I much prefer The Wall to DSotM. I'd personally say yes, DSotM is overrated. It just never, ever blew me away - it's good, of course, but WYWH, The Wall, Animals, heck, even Final Cut I consider better than DSotM. I realize I'm probably in the minority here, but oh well.
As far as "what is prog and what is not prog" - I think everyone has different ideas on that one. I always considered Pink Floyd "classic rock," not "prog." Same goes for the majority of Tull's work - I view Tull's "progressive" stint as basically 1970-77; the bulk of Tull's output is mediocre (in my opinion), but those 1970-77 years were special for them, and their music reached dizzying heights of prog excellence during that relatively short period.
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Catcher10
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Posted: March 21 2018 at 18:09 |
I don't think it is overrated at all. Does not matter whether I like it or not, its an album that influenced more bands than can be listed here. Just the production of Dark Side was a critical achievement, recorded in 1972 and released in 1973, what Alan Parsons did was and still is an engineering marvel. The album remains a staple for showing off your high end audio gear, its hard to beat the sound quality coming off my turntable when I spin the album.......
What, this was the Floyd's 7th or 8th album, so I think they were due for a masterpiece and they created it and the fans approved it spending over 14yrs on the charts.
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