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Topic ClosedModern album FINAL!!! Hybris v. Spirit of Eden
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Poll Question: pick the winner of the 2015 PA's modern album tournament
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Svetonio View Drop Down
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2015 at 20:30
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Uhh....what does The Who have to do with the thread topic?
Leave it to Mr S to bring in an irrelevant point.
 
Disapprove
Actually, chopper asked me for more explanation how that manner of singing is the most noticeable difference between Prog and Art Rock. I gave some examples - The Beatles, 10cc, 80s Townshend solo stuff and The Who's rock-operas. Sadly, he's not able yet to hear the differences.
 
Oh and this is a forum for the music discussions if you forgot that.

Well I must have missed your "example" of The Beatles and 10cc but quoting Roger Daltrey and The Who doesn't give an example of the difference between singing in prog and art rock - that's just quoting band names. I can obviously see a difference between Daltrey's rock singing of something like Baba O'Reilly and Jon Anderson's more sedate style, I presume that's what you mean, however Daltrey can sing quieter songs and Anderson can rock a bit. Where would you place someone like John Wetton?
I'v been already mentioned The Beatles' A Day In The Life as an example of that (early) Art-Rock and Art-Rock (i.e. Rock) manner of singing. Abbey Road  the album is also great example of Art Rock, while Strawberry Fields Forever / Penny Lane, that first-class single, is (early) Prog and sung in Prog manner; also Being For The Benefit of Mr. Kite  is fantastic (early) Prog song by The Beatles and sung in Prog manner.
 
Roger Daltrey was a undoubtedly one of greatest Rock singer ever and he was able to sing everything but he just refused to fullfil Townshend's desire and to sing in Prog manner in late 60s.
So thanks to gutsy Daltrey (who wasn't an art school student but a street-fighting son of Shepherds Bush) because Pete Townshend (an art school genius with the head in clouds) didn't changed the music direction of The Who in late 60s and therefore to destroy the greatest Rock  band ever. So, Daltrey expressed Townshend's ingenious and complex visions but in Rock manner. Though, there is one  track at Quad where Daltrey sings in the Prog manner, of course in Daltrey's own way. Add if you like Song Is Over  and that's all of The Who's prog songs with Daltrey on it. But otherwise, in the whole career, Daltrey refused to sing so many Townshend's songs that were written to be "progressive music"; once in his diary at former petetownshend.com, Townshend wrote that it was "maybe hundreds of pretty complex songs" that Daltrey won't to sing. And The Who survived, although with a smaller number of the studio albums than one could expect from the great band like that.
 
John Wetton you said? It's Prog manner of singing, of course.
 
I'v been already mentioned 10cc as also a great example that 70s Rock could be very artistic, complex, i.e. Art Rock, and it remains to be Rock due to manner of singing at the first place. And yet 10cc' vocals were awesome and musically better than many of Prog bands (Prog is not a badge of honor as somebody said).
 
Freddie Mercury is also an example of great Art Rock singer, what often leads young fans here to confuse the Queen in their best, Art Rock phase, with prog.
 
 
That underrated Big Star too... 
 
What about Joni Mitchell, re female Art Rock singers-songwriters?
 
There are many of examples.
 
Of course, that difference between the Prog manner of singing and the Rock manner is not that huge as e.g. the difference of the Jazz manner and Rock manner of singing, but it remains enough big that could be detected easily.
 


Edited by Svetonio - October 02 2015 at 05:45
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SaltyJon View Drop Down
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Points: 28772 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2015 at 20:34
Originally posted by TheGazzardian TheGazzardian wrote:

Kind of disappointed that the 'modern prog' final is two albums that are closer to 1970 than the current year

That doesn't bother me so much, I'm only upset that only one of them is any good. Wink
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Points: 1422 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2015 at 01:25
HYBRIS
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Points: 20030 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2015 at 05:46
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

also Being For The Benefit of Mr. Kite  is fantastic (early) Prog song by The Beatles and sung in Prog manner.
 
Fair enough but you're just quoting examples without saying what the difference actually is. That's like me saying football is different to rugby and Ronaldo is a footballer.
Why is Lennon's singing in Mr Kite "prog manner" as opposed to, say, something on Abbey Road?
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Svetonio View Drop Down
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2015 at 12:48
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

also Being For The Benefit of Mr. Kite  is fantastic (early) Prog song by The Beatles and sung in Prog manner.
 
Fair enough but you're just quoting examples without saying what the difference actually is. That's like me saying football is different to rugby and Ronaldo is a footballer.
Why is Lennon's singing in Mr Kite "prog manner" as opposed to, say, something on Abbey Road?
Okay, if all these examples given above are not enough for simple understanding, then we can try with easier tasks: what about the differences in the manner of singing between, for example, the Art Rock song Sea Breezes by Art Rock band Roxy Music, and Prog Rock song Musical Box by Genesis - both are from the albums released in 1972, and both (sic!) are listed as prog bands in PA?
Do you hear the difference?
If you hear the difference, then I believe that you're able to hear also that those vocals at Spirit of Eden  are Art Rock vocals, and that the vocals at Hybrys  the album are Prog Rock vocals. If not, there's no any chance for your hearing...
And I am sorry in that case, LOL.
About analysis what you maybe expected from me, I told you very clear at previous page of this thread that I am not a music teacher nor a musician (just a fan) that to be able to give you an academic analysis about this matter.
But, if someone doesn't hear such a difference, then even an academic analysis of singing by both singers would be pretty futile.

Edited by Svetonio - October 02 2015 at 13:13
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Points: 20847 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2015 at 12:55
As opposed to repeatedly stating an opinion as fact, that wouldn't be futile at all. Ermm
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2015 at 13:47
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

As opposed to repeatedly stating an opinion as fact, that wouldn't be futile at all. Ermm
Hey you clever one, just tell me quickly why King Crimson were not accepted the singer Elton John to join the band after an audition?
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Points: 554 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2015 at 13:53
I think Elton John becoming King Crimson's vocalist would have been awesome. Honestly disappointed that it didn't happen.

I don't know if Fripp and Elton would have been able to get along at a personal level though. I've heard that Elton used to go on drinking and drug binges and go crazy in his early days. Hard to believe when you look at him now (or maybe not?).


Edited by King Only - October 02 2015 at 13:58
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Points: 1563 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2015 at 14:33
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

As opposed to repeatedly stating an opinion as fact, that wouldn't be futile at all. Ermm
Hey you clever one, just tell me quickly why King Crimson were not accepted the singer Elton John to join the band after an audition?
Just because he was a good singer doesn't mean that he would've been great in every band. Can you imagine Geddy Lee as Genesis' vocalist? Dead
There is no dark side in the moon, really... Matter of fact, it's all dark...
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Points: 20030 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2015 at 14:43
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

also Being For The Benefit of Mr. Kite  is fantastic (early) Prog song by The Beatles and sung in Prog manner.
 
Fair enough but you're just quoting examples without saying what the difference actually is. That's like me saying football is different to rugby and Ronaldo is a footballer.
Why is Lennon's singing in Mr Kite "prog manner" as opposed to, say, something on Abbey Road?
Okay, if all these examples given above are not enough for simple understanding, then we can try with easier tasks: what about the differences in the manner of singing between, for example, the Art Rock song Sea Breezes by Art Rock band Roxy Music, and Prog Rock song Musical Box by Genesis - both are from the albums released in 1972, and both (sic!) are listed as prog bands in PA?
Do you hear the difference?
If you hear the difference, then I believe that you're able to hear also that those vocals at Spirit of Eden  are Art Rock vocals, and that the vocals at Hybrys  the album are Prog Rock vocals. If not, there's no any chance for your hearing...
And I am sorry in that case, LOL.
About analysis what you maybe expected from me, I told you very clear at previous page of this thread that I am not a music teacher nor a musician (just a fan) that to be able to give you an academic analysis about this matter.
But, if someone doesn't hear such a difference, then even an academic analysis of singing by both singers would be pretty futile.

Instead of being condesending, try answering the question please. Yes, I can hear a difference between Spirit of Eden and Hybris vocals as well as between Ferry and Gabriel, but that's not what I asked in this case. I asked what is prog about Lennon's singing on "Mr Kite"?


Edited by chopper - October 02 2015 at 14:44
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Points: 5111 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2015 at 14:52
Originally posted by King Only King Only wrote:

I think Elton John becoming King Crimson's vocalist would have been awesome. Honestly disappointed that it didn't happen.
 
OT: This got me thinking about who else I'd like to have heard sing in Crimson and my mind's ear has now got fixated on Peter Hammill singing ITCOCK. I can hear it as clear as day. And it's bloody terrible Cry
 
His version of 21CSM is awesome though Thumbs Up
 
 
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Points: 1563 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2015 at 14:57
^ That's what I love about Lake. He can go from the heavily distorted vocals of Schizoid to the soft I Talk To The Wind to the mysterious Crimson King.
There is no dark side in the moon, really... Matter of fact, it's all dark...
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2015 at 23:28
Originally posted by King Only King Only wrote:

I think Elton John becoming King Crimson's vocalist would have been awesome. Honestly disappointed that it didn't happen.

I don't know if Fripp and Elton would have been able to get along at a personal level though. I've heard that Elton used to go on drinking and drug binges and go crazy in his early days. Hard to believe when you look at him now (or maybe not?).
At that time an unknow singer Elton John was supposed to sing on Poseidon, for 250-pound fee and after the departure of Greg Lake from the band, but Fripp decided that Elton John's manner of singing is not suitable for the band as King Crimson. And it was the right decision because his manner of singing wasn't the prog manner of singing. Elton John's manner of singing in 1970 was Art Rock manner of singing.

Edited by Svetonio - October 03 2015 at 00:00
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2015 at 07:30
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

(...) I asked what is prog about Lennon's singing on "Mr Kite"?
The manner of Lennon' singing on Being For The Benefit of Mr Kite! is not Rock / Art Rock, because Lennon's singing contains a nuance of a chorus for example like this, and with the music that creates an atmosphere of a circus poster from 19th century (what actually inspired Lennon for the song), that is prog regarding Being For The Benefit of Mr Kite!.
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Points: 20847 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2015 at 09:16
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

As opposed to repeatedly stating an opinion as fact, that wouldn't be futile at all. Ermm

<span ="hps">Hey you</span> <span ="hps">clever</span> <span ="hps">one</span><span>, just tell me</span> <span ="hps">quickly</span> <span ="hps">why</span> King Crimson were <span ="hps">not accepted the singer</span><span ="hps"> Elton</span> <span ="hps">John to join</span> <span ="hps">the band</span> <span ="hps">after</span> <span ="hps">an audition?</span>


How the hell do I, or you, know why, it's pure speculation. One singer and band does not make a rule, its just opinionated bollocks. I'd personally loved to have heard David Sylvian in Crimson. You just keep posting opinions as facts. We can't even agree what is prog son it's a nonsense to define rules about vocalists.
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Svetonio View Drop Down
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2015 at 00:51
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

(...) I'd personally loved to have heard David Sylvian in Crimson. (...)
Nothing really spectacular if a voter of Talk Talk says so.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2015 at 03:51
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

(...) I'd personally loved to have heard David Sylvian in Crimson. (...)
Nothing really spectacular if a voter of Talk Talk says so.
The only thing a sore loser loses is his dignity.
What?
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2015 at 03:54
Quote I'd like just to inform the readers of this thread that i ignore what  Dean is posting here since long time ago, actually since he started to insult me at this forums, for example here. I'm just avoid to chat with such characters.
 
p.s. Dean knows it very well, but I'm always being quoted by him, because he wants to use my non-answer and silence that he tries to create an illusion that his tragicomic "arguments" (adressed to me) are compelling; he adressed so many post to me (although he knows that will be no reply from my side) at so many threads just in favor that you think that I'm flattered by his posts.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2015 at 04:36
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Quote I'd like just to inform the readers of this thread that i ignore what  Dean is posting here since long time ago, actually since he started to insult me at this forums, for example here. I'm just avoid to chat with such characters.
 
p.s. Dean knows it very well, but I'm always being quoted by him, because he wants to use my non-answer and silence that he tries to create an illusion that his tragicomic "arguments" (adressed to me) are compelling; he adressed so many post to me (although he knows that will be no reply from my side) at so many threads just in favor that you think that I'm flattered by his posts.
Brilliant, the more you copy that link the more apt it becomes.
What?
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2015 at 06:29
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

 but I couldn't help but think that the people who are praising this album are the same people who hate Porcupine Tree and Hogarth era Marillion.

Which would be pretty ironic because Happiness is Easy is pretty much the template for In Absentia/Deadwing PT.  Radiohead also initially imitated them they were more original in mixing different influences and broke away.  In PT/SW, it seems to be rather obvious, barely an attempt to disguise the Talk Talk influence.
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