Forum Home Forum Home > Other music related lounges > Proto-Prog and Prog-Related Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - The Beatles never existed!
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedThe Beatles never existed!
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 891011>
Author
Message
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
NYSPORTSFAN View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie


Joined: January 07 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 64 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2015 at 16:31
Originally posted by Lear'sFool Lear'sFool wrote:

^ The heck? Me a hater of The Beatles? Never. If pointing out that The Beatles had influences and precedents  is hatred....

In the end, you fail to to see the connections between the various raga influenced works, and, knowing you are wrong, resort to insult.

The Beatles - and specifically, George - would not have jumped into the sitar and raga if not for The Byrds. Roger McGuinn introduced George to the sitar via a Ravi Shankar recording, and they helped move the process along with "Eight Miles High", which did in fact pip the Fab Four on being first to try and fuse raga principles into rock music, thank you very much.

And The Byrds clearly got the idea to do so from Trane. And Trane got his ideas from Bud Shank and Tony Scott. Who did such because they met Ravi and collaborated. Ravi had a lot of faith and interest in mixing raga into Western forms, first jazz and orchestral, and then later helping George learn the sitar once McGuinn introduced George to it and Ravi and so picked one up.

The story of music is the story of precedence.
 
The Beatles were exposed or George Harrison was exposed to Classical Indian Music before they met the Byrds and musically speaking "Love You To" is unlike anything their rock peers were doing those are the plain facts. I am sure there was musical exchanges between The Byrds and The Beatles. Please note The Byrds basically formed as a rock band music after hearing "A Hard Days Night".
 
Now if you want to say Kinks or The Yardbirds were using pseudo Indian influences before The Beatles you might have an argument but the full blown fusion like "Love You To" of Within You Within You" which is basically World Music/Meets Pop music.
 
I think you might be interested in reading  MacDonald, Ian (2005). Revolution in the Head: The Beatles' Records and the Sixties where he thinks "Ticket To Ride" drones were actually derived from Classical Indian music. 
 
 
 
Back to Top
LearsFool View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: November 09 2014
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 8642 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2015 at 16:38
^ The Byrds took from Dylan, not The Beatles, and The Byrds pipped The Beatles. Try again.
Back to Top
NYSPORTSFAN View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie


Joined: January 07 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 64 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2015 at 17:13
Originally posted by Lear'sFool Lear'sFool wrote:

^ The Byrds took from Dylan, not The Beatles, and The Byrds pipped The Beatles. Try again.

It's surprising as a supposed Beatles fan you don't know this. Actually Roger McGuinn actually purchased the Ricky Guitar after hearing The Beatles playing one. Please do yourself a favor maybe read on the topic before commenting.

Roger McGuinn saw and heard "She Loves You" on the Jack Paar Show in early January 1964, was so knocked out they he went out and bought "Meet The Beatles," listened to it repeatedly, learned all the songs, and started integrating their songs into his acoustic folk sets around Greenwich Village. 

David Crosby, in Chicago in early '64, was "floored" by "Meet The Beatles," and "ate it for breakfast." Gene Clark, touring in Canada with the New Christy Minstrels in the second half of 1963, heard "She Loves You" for the first time. Later, in early '64 on a jukebox in Norfolk, Virginia, he only punched up "She Loves You" about forty times over the two days he was playing there. Clark later claimed: "I knew, I knew, that this was the future." (Richie Unterberger, TURN!TURN!TURN!. Backbeat Books, 
Back to Top
LearsFool View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: November 09 2014
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 8642 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2015 at 17:18
^ The Byrds were mainly a Dylan derived band, end of. And rather than getting all their rock influence from The Beatles, they took from the general grouping of Invasion bands.

If you actually read what you try and use as evidence for completely and utterly wrong conclusions, you'll note that The Byrds were a folky unit before any British influence cropped up.

And don't you dare insult my credentials as a Beatle fan.


Edited by Lear'sFool - February 01 2015 at 17:23
Back to Top
NYSPORTSFAN View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie


Joined: January 07 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 64 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2015 at 17:44
Originally posted by Lear'sFool Lear'sFool wrote:

^ The Byrds were mainly a Dylan derived band, end of. And rather than getting all their rock influence from The Beatles, they took from the general grouping of Invasion bands.

If you actually read what you try and use as evidence for completely and utterly wrong conclusions, you'll note that The Byrds were a folky unit before any British influence cropped up.

And don't you dare insult my credentials as a Beatle fan.

Please read from Roger McGuinn comments. If you don't think they weren't listening to The Beatles then you are at fault not me. It's pretty accepted that The Byrds were formed as a folk rock band because of The Beatles not Dylan as he didn't go electric way after the fact. Even then Dylan was influenced by The Beatles to go electric.  Back in those days you would be hard pressed to find a band that wasn't influenced by The Beatles. This is just silly. 

The artful Roger: in The Folk Den with Roger McGuinn

 

At the same time all this was happening, McGuinn also experienced a major epiphany that would have a profound effect on his musical future: The Beatles had exploded onto the American charts. Captivated by their skiffle beat, mellifluous chord progressions, and infectious melodies, he instinctively knew that melding those distinguishing characteristics with his own tried-and-true folk sensibilities and training would yield a pretty unique sound.

"When the Beatles had come out, the folk boom had already peaked," McGuinn notes. "The people who had been into it were getting kind of burned out. It just wasn't very gratifying, and it had become so commercial that it had lost its meaning for a lot of people. So the Beatles kind of re-energized it for me. I thought it was natural to put the Beatles' beat and the energy of the Beatles into folk music. And in fact, I heard folk chord changes in the Beatles' music when I listened to their early stuff like 'She Loves You' and 'I Want To Hold Your Hand.' I could hear the passing chords that we always use in folk music: the G-Em-Am-B kind of stuff. So I really think the Beatles invented folk-rock. They just didn't know it."


Bob Dylan:

In short, the Beatles were a rupture — they changed modern history, and no less a craftsman than Bob Dylan understood the meaning of their advent. "They were doing things nobody else was doing," he later told his biographer Anthony Scaduto.

 "But I just kept it to myself that I really dug them. Everybody else thought they were just for the teenyboppers, that they were gonna pass right away. But it was obvious to me that they had staying power. I knew they were pointing the direction that music had to go. . . . It seemed to me a definite line was being drawn. This was something that never happened before."



Edited by NYSPORTSFAN - February 01 2015 at 17:45
Back to Top
LearsFool View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: November 09 2014
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 8642 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2015 at 18:25
^ The Byrds did their own folk rock, so Dylan's influence trumps all others. You clearly know nothing about The Byrds, or anything for that matter.
Back to Top
SteveG View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20609 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2015 at 15:08
^The Beatles were indeed influenced by Dylan's lyrics and that was the major reason for John Lennon's switch to introspective songwriting on such songs as You've Got To Hide Your Love Away , Nowhere Man, and (if it was slowed down and played according to it's content) Help. A big steep away from She Loves You.
 
The Byrds main influence from The Beatles was that McGuinn was smitten with the chime of Harrison's 12 string electric Ric.
 
Harrison, in return, was turned on to the sitar by listening to Ravi Shankar records that were played to him by David Crosby! When Harrison first encountered the sitar on the set of the movie Help!, he thought it was a joke until his Shankar listening encounter with Crosby.
 
An excellent and thorough account of The Beatles, The Byrds, Dylan and their back and forth influences can be found in Ritchie Unterberger's wonderful book titled Turn! Turn! Turn! 
 
It's a fantastic eye witnessed account of that wild era, and includes the back story of Dylan playing  the controversial electric set at the 1965 Newport Folk Festival. In reality, this planted the seeds for the Byrd's creation of American Folk Rock.
 
Btw, Roger McGuinn is on record that his lead vocal for Mr. Tambourine Man was a deliberate impersonation of what he thought was a combination of both Lennon's and Dylans' vocals and phrasing! Far out!


Edited by SteveG - February 02 2015 at 15:30
Back to Top
NYSPORTSFAN View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie


Joined: January 07 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 64 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2015 at 18:35
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^The Beatles were indeed influenced by Dylan's lyrics and that was the major reason for John Lennon's switch to introspective songwriting on such songs as You've Got To Hide Your Love Away , Nowhere Man, and (if it was slowed down and played according to it's content) Help. A big steep away from She Loves You.
 
The Byrds main influence from The Beatles was that McGuinn was smitten with the chime of Harrison's 12 string electric Ric.
 
Harrison, in return, was turned on to the sitar by listening to Ravi Shankar records that were played to him by David Crosby! When Harrison first encountered the sitar on the set of the movie Help!, he thought it was a joke until his Shankar listening encounter with Crosby.
 
An excellent and thorough account of The Beatles, The Byrds, Dylan and their back and forth influences can be found in Ritchie Unterberger's wonderful book titled Turn! Turn! Turn! 
 
It's a fantastic eye witnessed account of that wild era, and includes the back story of Dylan playing  the controversial electric set at the 1965 Newport Folk Festival. In reality, this planted the seeds for the Byrd's creation of American Folk Rock.
 
Btw, Roger McGuinn is on record that his lead vocal for Mr. Tambourine Man was a deliberate impersonation of what he thought was a combination of both Lennon's and Dylans' vocals and phrasing! Far out!
 
I have read Ritchie Unterberger's Turn! Turn! Turn.
 
He had interesting interview with Barry McGuire in which he thinks The Beatles  were more influential than Dylan in terms of folk rock. Barry comments are interesting on The Beatles influence on The Byrds sound. By the way The Byrds recorded Mr. Tambourine was recorded before the Dylan concert.

I'm finding that the Beatles are cited as the biggest influence in the shift to folk-rock, more than Dylan.

It was so much fun. It was really fun. Well, Bobby was just basically a folk singer. He didn't play with any bands or anything, like all the rest of us. Just played his guitar and sang his songs. And then when I left the Christys... (chuckles) Roger McGuinn, he wanted to get in the Christys and we were full and wouldn't let him in. And so did David Crosby. He was all pissed off because he couldn't get in the Christys, and Hoyt Axton couldn't get in, and all the guys that were loose in the streets, a lot of them, wanted to get in. The Christys was happening, and everybody was looking for work and wanted places to sing and people to sing to.

So I went out to Hoyt's one time, and Hoyt [Axton] was living in Topanga Canyon, and Roger McGuinn was living in his poolhouse. So I was sitting out, and Roger says, "hey, come here, let me sing some songs for you." So he started singing some songs, and he said, "What do you think about this stuff?" And it just blew me away. "Can you think of anybody who'd like to hear this?" And I said, Roger, that's awesome, just wonderful. And he told me one time that when he heard the little 12-string, electric 12-string riff that the Beatles did, I think it was the end of "Hard Day's Night," right at the end of one of their songs. And Roger went, that's it, that's it! And that's where he got the style for "Tambourine Man" and "12 [sic] Miles High" and basically, the Byrds' sound.

 


Edited by NYSPORTSFAN - February 03 2015 at 18:36
Back to Top
LearsFool View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: November 09 2014
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 8642 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2015 at 18:50
Originally posted by NYSPORTSFAN NYSPORTSFAN wrote:

He had interesting interview with Barry McGuire in which he thinks The Beatles  were more influential than Dylan in terms of folk rock. Barry comments are interesting on The Beatles influence on The Byrds sound. By the way The Byrds recorded Mr. Tambourine was recorded before the Dylan concert.

Of course, but "Mr. Tambourine Man" was a Dylan cover, so Dylan's influence was there even before Newport. It was always there. And as such, McGuire is wrong to say that The Beatles were more influential on folk rock - they did only two folky rock songs, whereas Dylan did three whole albums of it and inspired the folk aspect of The Byrds.
Back to Top
micky View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2015 at 19:10
hahah.  Been following this interesting exchange over the last few pages.

I do think however we now need a new thread title..

Barry McGuire never existed.LOL
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Back to Top
LearsFool View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: November 09 2014
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 8642 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2015 at 19:13
^ LOL
Back to Top
micky View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2015 at 19:20
Wink

you got guts and conviction brother.. I'll give you that Clap

Yeah man...f**k McGuire and the opinion he rode in on... what does he really know. LOL
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Back to Top
SteveG View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20609 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2015 at 10:34
Originally posted by NYSPORTSFAN NYSPORTSFAN wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^The Beatles were indeed influenced by Dylan's lyrics and that was the major reason for John Lennon's switch to introspective songwriting on such songs as You've Got To Hide Your Love Away , Nowhere Man, and (if it was slowed down and played according to it's content) Help. A big steep away from She Loves You.
 
The Byrds main influence from The Beatles was that McGuinn was smitten with the chime of Harrison's 12 string electric Ric.
 
Harrison, in return, was turned on to the sitar by listening to Ravi Shankar records that were played to him by David Crosby! When Harrison first encountered the sitar on the set of the movie Help!, he thought it was a joke until his Shankar listening encounter with Crosby.
 
An excellent and thorough account of The Beatles, The Byrds, Dylan and their back and forth influences can be found in Ritchie Unterberger's wonderful book titled Turn! Turn! Turn! 
 
It's a fantastic eye witnessed account of that wild era, and includes the back story of Dylan playing  the controversial electric set at the 1965 Newport Folk Festival. In reality, this planted the seeds for the Byrd's creation of American Folk Rock.
 
Btw, Roger McGuinn is on record that his lead vocal for Mr. Tambourine Man was a deliberate impersonation of what he thought was a combination of both Lennon's and Dylans' vocals and phrasing! Far out!
 
I have read Ritchie Unterberger's Turn! Turn! Turn.
 
He had interesting interview with Barry McGuire in which he thinks The Beatles  were more influential than Dylan in terms of folk rock. Barry comments are interesting on The Beatles influence on The Byrds sound. By the way The Byrds recorded Mr. Tambourine was recorded before the Dylan concert.

I'm finding that the Beatles are cited as the biggest influence in the shift to folk-rock, more than Dylan.

It was so much fun. It was really fun. Well, Bobby was just basically a folk singer. He didn't play with any bands or anything, like all the rest of us. Just played his guitar and sang his songs. And then when I left the Christys... (chuckles) Roger McGuinn, he wanted to get in the Christys and we were full and wouldn't let him in. And so did David Crosby. He was all pissed off because he couldn't get in the Christys, and Hoyt Axton couldn't get in, and all the guys that were loose in the streets, a lot of them, wanted to get in. The Christys was happening, and everybody was looking for work and wanted places to sing and people to sing to.

So I went out to Hoyt's one time, and Hoyt [Axton] was living in Topanga Canyon, and Roger McGuinn was living in his poolhouse. So I was sitting out, and Roger says, "hey, come here, let me sing some songs for you." So he started singing some songs, and he said, "What do you think about this stuff?" And it just blew me away. "Can you think of anybody who'd like to hear this?" And I said, Roger, that's awesome, just wonderful. And he told me one time that when he heard the little 12-string, electric 12-string riff that the Beatles did, I think it was the end of "Hard Day's Night," right at the end of one of their songs. And Roger went, that's it, that's it! And that's where he got the style for "Tambourine Man" and "12 [sic] Miles High" and basically, the Byrds' sound.

 
Glad you read the book. I think that McGuire stating that the Beatles influence in the shift from Folk to Folk Rock was that they turned everyone electric, along with the influence of Beatles' songs (who took Dylan's inspiration) like You've Got To Hide Your Love Away. A great influence certainly, but the Byrds are the ones who put the pieces together and that was long established before Unterberger's recap, which historically has been this: The Beatles+Dylan=The Byrds.  In other words a 50/50 split, as Unterberger's book infers.
 
Now, back to topic: The Byrds and Dylan never existed! LOL


Edited by SteveG - February 04 2015 at 15:06
Back to Top
Smurph View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 11 2012
Location: Columbus&NYC
Status: Offline
Points: 3167 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2015 at 11:05
http://www.mandatory.com/2014/04/28/10-public-figures-who-allegedly-made-a-pact-with-the-devil/5

Speaking of Bob Dylan
http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/



wtf
Back to Top
CPicard View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 03 2008
Location: Là, sui monti.
Status: Offline
Points: 10841 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2015 at 02:59
Weird to see this thread has evolved from a joke about a crazy conspiracy theory to a serious discussion about the merits of the Beatles.
So, I feel like I got to re-watch the Rutles movies: it makes sense in this context.
Back to Top
earlyprog View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Neo / PSIKE / Heavy Teams

Joined: March 05 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 2133 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2015 at 05:53
Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by zravkapt zravkapt wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

News Flash: Paul is Dead!

The Corpse is now working with Kayne West:

http://pitchfork.com/news/57934-kanye-west-and-paul-mccartney-team-up-for-only-one/

He appears to have resurrected and is now also working with Rihanna:

http://www.examiner.com/article/new-mccartney-kanye-west-song-with-rihanna-out-and-some-still-don-t-know-him

Someone should stop that zombie before he harms more people.

....and working with Lady Gaga:

http://www.examiner.com/article/beatles-news-lady-gaga-making-music-with-mccartney-ringo-s-postcards

I'm nearly convinced this guy actually is for real LOL
Back to Top
SteveG View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20609 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 06 2015 at 09:21
Originally posted by CPicard CPicard wrote:

Weird to see this thread has evolved from a joke about a crazy conspiracy theory to a serious discussion about the merits of the Beatles.
So, I feel like I got to re-watch the Rutles movies: it makes sense in this context.
The Rutles do actually  Exist!
Back to Top
chopper View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 20030 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 06 2015 at 10:30
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by CPicard CPicard wrote:

Weird to see this thread has evolved from a joke about a crazy conspiracy theory to a serious discussion about the merits of the Beatles.
So, I feel like I got to re-watch the Rutles movies: it makes sense in this context.
The Rutles do actually  Exist!
Ah, but can you prove it?
Back to Top
earlyprog View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Neo / PSIKE / Heavy Teams

Joined: March 05 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 2133 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 06 2015 at 12:16
^I read about them in some book. Hence, it's a fact they actually do exist.

LOL
Back to Top
chopper View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 20030 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 06 2015 at 12:37
Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

^I read about them in some book. Hence, it's a fact they actually do exist.

LOL

Wow, so Noddy and Big Ears exist then?
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 891011>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.164 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.