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zappaholic View Drop Down
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Points: 2822 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 29 2013 at 06:57
Originally posted by refugee refugee wrote:


No silent silent letters? How do you pronounce "knight" and "psalm"?




"You silly English K-NIGGETS!"
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 29 2013 at 06:57
Many silent letters modify the following syllable in a subtle way, this is not the same as a consonant blend (as in "th" or "ph") which modifies the pronunciation of the consonant itself. In words beginning "Kn" the "K" serves to harden the "N" sound and soften the following vowel, but this is so subtle in modern pronunciation as to be lost, as Ian says of the "w" in "write"  - he sort of pronounces it, he knows it is there.The "K" in "knight" does modify the word pronunciation, it is just that the modified pronunciation sounds exactly the same as the unmodified pronunciation, the "k" remains in knight when written to distinguish it from the homophone "night". If you doubt this explanation then consider "now", "know" and "no".

Incidentally, there are two other homophones of right and write - wright (meaning "worker" as in playwright and wheelwright) and rite (meaning "ceremony or ritual" as in rite of passage) ... as you can now see the silent "w" pairings would actually be "rite" with "write", and "right" with "wright". The meaning and etymology of each word is different and unrelated, the reason they exist in the English language is because they were introduced into the language from different European languages at different times in different regional locations (rite is derived from Latin; write, wright and right are all Germanic but from Saxon, Frisian and Norse derivation)

The only silent "P" is in swimming.

In the English language there are very few definitive pronunciations of words as the the actual pronunciation varies with dialect and accent. In this thread thus far we have several people offering opinions whose lingua franca is English but whose accent and dialect varies considerably.
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Points: 4671 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 29 2013 at 08:42
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Many silent letters modify the following syllable in a subtle way, this is not the same as a consonant blend (as in "th" or "ph") which modifies the pronunciation of the consonant itself. In words beginning "Kn" the "K" serves to harden the "N" sound and soften the following vowel, but this is so subtle in modern pronunciation as to be lost, as Ian says of the "w" in "write"  - he sort of pronounces it, he knows it is there.The "K" in "knight" does modify the word pronunciation, it is just that the modified pronunciation sounds exactly the same as the unmodified pronunciation, the "k" remains in knight when written to distinguish it from the homophone "night". If you doubt this explanation then consider "now", "know" and "no".

Incidentally, there are two other homophones of right and write - wright (meaning "worker" as in playwright and wheelwright) and rite (meaning "ceremony or ritual" as in rite of passage) ... as you can now see the silent "w" pairings would actually be "rite" with "write", and "right" with "wright". The meaning and etymology of each word is different and unrelated, the reason they exist in the English language is because they were introduced into the language from different European languages at different times in different regional locations (rite is derived from Latin; write, wright and right are all Germanic but from Saxon, Frisian and Norse derivation)

The only silent "P" is in swimming.

In the English language there are very few definitive pronunciations of words as the the actual pronunciation varies with dialect and accent. In this thread thus far we have several people offering opinions whose lingua franca is English but whose accent and dialect varies considerably.

Cool; I wasn't aware one could hear accents on the interwebs!
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 29 2013 at 09:11
Originally posted by infocat infocat wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


In the English language there are very few definitive pronunciations of words as the the actual pronunciation varies with dialect and accent. In this thread thus far we have several people offering opinions whose lingua franca is English but whose accent and dialect varies considerably.

Cool; I wasn't aware one could hear accents on the interwebs!
If you have the British accent of either Ian or myself I would be quietly surprised, since it is highly unlikely that he and I share an accent given that I come from the east coast of England and he resides the capitol city of Wales, (not withstanding the possibility that someone living in the USA having the same accent as either of us is almost inevitable). I would be equally surprised that people posting from Cleveland, Colorado, Georgia, Northern California and Washington, DC would be sharing a common accent... However, I do accept that these things are indeed possible, co-incidence, however unlikely, does happen.
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Points: 7849 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 29 2013 at 09:13
Some have said that 'English' is one of the hardest languages to learn because of 'silent' letters; however, it's just as Dean said about regional differences with 'pronunciation' and how they have been changed over time by our regional neighbors. But Mainly, we should consider the 'logic' in the English language. Take for example the word 'Island.'
Now if we took out the 's' how the would we pronounce it? It would be Iland or Ileand and you can see by trying to pronounce 'Island' without the silent 's' being visible it takes away from trying to say the word correctly mainly because of the 'double LL.' Anyhow, Silent letters play more of a role in the English language than one might ever think.
;)
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 29 2013 at 09:22
Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

Some have said that 'English' is one of the hardest languages to learn because of 'silent' letters; however, it's just as Dean said about regional differences with 'pronunciation' and how they have been changed over time by our regional neighbors. But Mainly, we should consider the 'logic' in the English language. Take for example the word 'Island.' 
Now if we took out the 's' how the would we pronounce it? It would be Iland or Ileand and you can see by trying to pronounce 'Island' without the silent 's' being visible it takes away from trying to say the word correctly mainly because of the 'double LL.' Anyhow, Silent letters play more of a role in the English language than one might ever think. 
;)
'double LL'?? say what? Confusion over upper case "I" and lower case "l" in sans-serif fonts perhaps, but in lower case this confusion does not exist ("iland") nor would it with serifs it would be "Iland"

However, that aside, great post.

Quote isle (n.) Look up isle at Dictionary.com
late 13c., from Old French ile, earlier isle, from Latin insula "island," of uncertain origin, perhaps (as the Ancients guessed) from in salo "(that which is) in the sea," from ablative of salum "the open sea." The -s- was restored first in French, then in English in the late 1500s.




/edit: Of course, Isle can have a silent "a" at the beginning, which leads us to the famous Prog pun by Peter Gabriel: "The Aisle of Plenty"



Edited by Dean - December 29 2013 at 09:42
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Points: 8856 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 31 2013 at 12:33
I pronounce both words the following way: "rite"

If you do not pronounce them this way, you are rong.


Edited by Polymorphia - December 31 2013 at 12:34
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Points: 13063 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 31 2013 at 12:36
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

Some have said that 'English' is one of the hardest languages to learn because of 'silent' letters; however, it's just as Dean said about regional differences with 'pronunciation' and how they have been changed over time by our regional neighbors. But Mainly, we should consider the 'logic' in the English language. Take for example the word 'Island.' 
Now if we took out the 's' how the would we pronounce it? It would be Iland or Ileand and you can see by trying to pronounce 'Island' without the silent 's' being visible it takes away from trying to say the word correctly mainly because of the 'double LL.' Anyhow, Silent letters play more of a role in the English language than one might ever think. 
;)
'double LL'?? say what? Confusion over upper case "I" and lower case "l" in sans-serif fonts perhaps, but in lower case this confusion does not exist ("iland") nor would it with serifs it would be "Iland"

However, that aside, great post.

Quote isle (n.) Look up isle at Dictionary.com
late 13c., from Old French ile, earlier isle, from Latin insula "island," of uncertain origin, perhaps (as the Ancients guessed) from in salo "(that which is) in the sea," from ablative of salum "the open sea." The -s- was restored first in French, then in English in the late 1500s.




/edit: Of course, Isle can have a silent "a" at the beginning, which leads us to the famous Prog pun by Peter Gabriel: "The Aisle of Plenty"

An isle cannot have an isthmus or a peninsula, but may be an eyot, given its location. Even an islet, I'll add. Although it may not add anything to the conversation atoll. Wink
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Points: 7849 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 31 2013 at 14:00
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

Some have said that 'English' is one of the hardest languages to learn because of 'silent' letters; however, it's just as Dean said about regional differences with 'pronunciation' and how they have been changed over time by our regional neighbors. But Mainly, we should consider the 'logic' in the English language. Take for example the word 'Island.' Now if we took out the 's' how the would we pronounce it? It would be Iland or Ileand and you can see by trying to pronounce 'Island' without the silent 's' being visible it takes away from trying to say the word correctly mainly because of the 'double LL.' Anyhow, Silent letters play more of a role in the English language than one might ever think. ;)

'double LL'?? say what? Confusion over upper case "<FONT face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">I" and lower case "<FONT face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">l" in sans-serif fonts perhaps, but in lower case this confusion does not exist ("iland") nor would it with serifs it would be "<FONT face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">Iland"


However, that aside, great post.


Quote isle (n.)<SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia, Garamond, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px; rgb255: "> </SPAN>Look up isle at Dictionary.com
<SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia, Garamond, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px; rgb255: ">late 13c., from Old French</SPAN><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia, Garamond, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px; rgb255: "> </SPAN><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia, Garamond, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px" ="foreign">ile</SPAN><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia, Garamond, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px; rgb255: ">, earlier</SPAN><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia, Garamond, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px; rgb255: "> </SPAN><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia, Garamond, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px" ="foreign">isle</SPAN><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia, Garamond, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px; rgb255: ">, from Latin</SPAN><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia, Garamond, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px; rgb255: "> </SPAN><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia, Garamond, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px" ="foreign">insula</SPAN><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia, Garamond, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px; rgb255: "> </SPAN><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia, Garamond, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px; rgb255: ">"island," of uncertain origin, perhaps (as the Ancients guessed) from</SPAN><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia, Garamond, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px; rgb255: "> </SPAN><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia, Garamond, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px" ="foreign">in salo</SPAN><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia, Garamond, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px; rgb255: "> </SPAN><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia, Garamond, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px; rgb255: ">"(that which is) in the sea," from ablative of</SPAN><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia, Garamond, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px; rgb255: "> </SPAN><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia, Garamond, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px" ="foreign">salum</SPAN><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia, Garamond, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px; rgb255: "> </SPAN><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia, Garamond, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px; rgb255: ">"the open sea." The</SPAN><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia, Garamond, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px; rgb255: "> </SPAN><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia, Garamond, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px" ="foreign">-s-</SPAN><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia, Garamond, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px; rgb255: "> </SPAN><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia, Garamond, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px; rgb255: ">was restored first in French, then in English in the late 1500s.</SPAN>





/edit: Of course, Isle can have a silent "a" at the beginning, which leads us to the famous Prog pun by Peter Gabriel: "The Aisle of Plenty"



An isle cannot have an isthmus or a peninsula, but may be an eyot, given its location. Even an islet, I'll add. Although it may not add anything to the conversation atoll. Wink


Pretty interesting.
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Points: 14169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 31 2013 at 14:39
Right is rite and write is rite
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Points: 11415 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2014 at 16:28
I've always been puzzled that the nouns plumber and slumber don't rhyme (as the former has a silent 'b')
So what makes plumber different from say, number or cucumber?
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Points: 2822 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2014 at 16:56
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

I've always been puzzled that the nouns plumber and slumber don't rhyme (as the former has a silent 'b')
So what makes plumber different from say, number or cucumber?


Probably because it's derived from the verb to plumb?  That'd be my guess.
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Points: 11415 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2014 at 17:00
Originally posted by zappaholic zappaholic wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

I've always been puzzled that the nouns plumber and slumber don't rhyme (as the former has a silent 'b')
So what makes plumber different from say, number or cucumber?


Probably because it's derived from the verb to plumb?  That'd be my guess.





OK I geddit, to comfortably numb....Wink
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Points: 12794 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2014 at 17:08
A lot of English's inconsistencies come from French conquests of the island and attempts to "Latin-ize" the Germanic language. I'd find sources but I'm lazy.
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Points: 11415 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2014 at 17:54
Can anyone explain the rationale behind the different pronunciation of the following?

Charles was a charlatan
The owl and the vole howled at the hole in the bowl


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Points: 2822 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 08 2014 at 16:58



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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 08 2014 at 17:13
^ though it seems Seuss was less thorough than he thought, which was not enough, being unaware of the hiccough Chough from Scarborough:

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Points: 13298 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 08 2014 at 17:35
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Can anyone explain the rationale behind the different pronunciation of the following?

Charles was a charlatan
The owl and the vole howled at the hole in the bowl



It's all language of origin - Charles is a derivation of Karl from German, so gets the soft k sound ('ch')

Charlatan is a portmanteau of an Italian word and a French word, so it gets the soft sh sound.

Owl is Old English and Germanic, so it has the "ow" sound (cowl, howl, etc)

Vole is English and Norwegian, so it gets a hard o.

Hole and bowl are in the same boat, with bowl having an Older English origin.
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Points: 11415 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 08 2014 at 19:31
Originally posted by Andy Webb Andy Webb wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Can anyone explain the rationale behind the different pronunciation of the following?

Charles was a charlatan
The owl and the vole howled at the hole in the bowl



It's all language of origin - Charles is a derivation of Karl from German, so gets the soft k sound ('ch')

Charlatan is a portmanteau of an Italian word and a French word, so it gets the soft sh sound.

Owl is Old English and Germanic, so it has the "ow" sound (cowl, howl, etc)

Vole is English and Norwegian, so it gets a hard o.

Hole and bowl are in the same boat, with bowl having an Older English origin.


Thanks, that wasn't the answer I was expecting but it certainly seems plausibleThumbs Up
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Points: 43717 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2017 at 10:44
Originally posted by refugee refugee wrote:

My last thread here (the Ian-thread) was a big hit. Now I have a problem with Norwegians saying that the "w" in "write" is pronounced. I tell them that it isn’t; "write" is pronounced exactly like "right". Am eye write?

not if you are Elmer Fudd. 
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