The Prog Mind |
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The T
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: May 17 2013 at 21:17 | |||||
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The T
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: May 17 2013 at 21:18 | |||||
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 22 2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 20623 |
Posted: May 17 2013 at 21:23 | |||||
Uh...philosophy is a world view and a way of thinking on one level. |
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin |
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Larree
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 10 2013 Location: Hollywood, CA Status: Offline Points: 869 |
Posted: May 17 2013 at 21:27 | |||||
Wow. Really? Okay. Music inspires me and invigorates my mind. Listening to great music makes me want to be more inventive and creative in all aspects of my life. Is that a good start?
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Larree
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 10 2013 Location: Hollywood, CA Status: Offline Points: 869 |
Posted: May 17 2013 at 21:28 | |||||
Right on, Dr. Wu!
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Larree
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 10 2013 Location: Hollywood, CA Status: Offline Points: 869 |
Posted: May 17 2013 at 21:32 | |||||
Come on, T. Of course those regular individuals wondered why. Constantly!
Edited by Larree - May 17 2013 at 21:33 |
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progbethyname
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 30 2012 Location: HiFi Headmania Status: Offline Points: 7849 |
Posted: May 17 2013 at 21:35 | |||||
Ok ok. Let's just slow down and really ask ourselves where or what we would be without critical thought that is a prime result of philosophy. Where? I look at so many bands I love and their music is rittled with philosophical concepts and thoughts on a lyrical basis. Sheesh. Subject matter would be somf**king boring if ya ask me.
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Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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The Mystical
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 20 2012 Status: Offline Points: 604 |
Posted: May 17 2013 at 21:35 | |||||
In my opinion, philosophy is neither important nor unimportant; just a way of trying to understand the universe around us. Music is a very spiritual art form, and I think that philosophy and spirituality are great ways of unleashing a musician's full creative potential.
I enjoy listening to music with philosophical or abstract themes, but I also enjoy listening to music with simpler themes. It all depends on my mindset.
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I am currently digging:
Hawkwind, Rare Bird, Gong, Tangerine Dream, Khan, Iron Butterfly, and all things canterbury and hard-psych. I also love jazz! Please drop me a message with album suggestions. |
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Larree
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 10 2013 Location: Hollywood, CA Status: Offline Points: 869 |
Posted: May 17 2013 at 21:47 | |||||
Exactly! Great post!
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progbethyname
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 30 2012 Location: HiFi Headmania Status: Offline Points: 7849 |
Posted: May 17 2013 at 22:05 | |||||
Well then. You are allowed to board the DEAD CAN DANCE train. :) |
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Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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jude111
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 20 2009 Location: Not Here Status: Offline Points: 1754 |
Posted: May 17 2013 at 22:20 | |||||
Haha, this is bound to cause some controversy. Personally I was drawn to psychology and philosophy as a pre-teen and teen (struggling to read Nietzsche, Freud and Jung, embarrassing! :-), but by my mid-20s saw it as much the same as you do. I became much more interested in sociology and critical theory, which at its best tackles real-world problems and uses exciting methodologies. I'm not saying though that I want lyricists to start quoting or drawing from Bakhtin, Gramsci, Lukacs, or Althusser... Not sure how well it would work in a song :-) I'm of the mind that when Marx took elements of Hegel's philosophy out of the realm of la-la land and applied it to reality, the social sciences were born, and philosophy was rendered a bit worthless. At the same time, what fresh horrors were birthed and unleashed? I think Marxism and neo- and post- can be great at interpreting history and current events, and even a bit of prediction - but as a prescriptive application or remedy for capitalism's ills, well... that's another story... Personally, I think the best application for critical theory and sociological theories is as art and literary/textual criticism, where it can't do too much harm! Certainly, many of these theorists have/had important things to say (Fanon, Freire, etc.), but generally no one's listening anyway - except others who specialize in the same thing (art theory, architecture, film, literature, etc.). Edited by jude111 - May 18 2013 at 00:25 |
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jude111
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 20 2009 Location: Not Here Status: Offline Points: 1754 |
Posted: May 17 2013 at 22:43 | |||||
Have you guys seriously ever tried to read a real work of philosophy? Here's an excerpt from Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason." Try to read it with comprehension, and without falling asleep. (And perhaps you can also tell me how to apply it when dealing with global warming, the threat of global pandemics, Islamic fundamentalism, Greece's crashing economy, poverty in Detroit, the failing Euro, the rise of China and the competition among the ruling classes of the capitalist countries, etc.):
I TRANSCENDENTAL ILLUSION WE have already entitled dialectic in general a logic of illu- sion. This does not mean a doctrine of probability; for prob- ability is truth, known however on insufficient grounds, and the knowledge of which, though thus imperfect, is not on that account deceptive; and such doctrine, accordingly, is not to be separated from the analytic part of logic. Still less justification have we for regarding appearance and illusion as being identi- cal. For truth or illusion is not in the object, in so far as it is intuited, but in the judgment about it, in so far as it is thought. It is therefore correct to say that the senses do not err -- not because they always judge rightly but because they do not judge at all. Truth and error, therefore, and consequently also illusion as leading to error, are only to be found in the judg- ment, i.e. only in the relation of the object to our understand- ing. In any knowledge which completely accords with the laws of understanding there is no error. In a representation of the senses -- as containing no judgment whatsoever -- there is also no error. No natural force can of itself deviate from its own laws. Thus neither the understanding by itself (uninfluenced by another cause), nor the senses by themselves, would fall into error. The former would not, since, if it acts only accord- ing to its own laws, the effect (the judgment) must necessarily be in conformity with these laws; conformity with the laws P 298 of the understanding is the formal element in all truth. In the senses there is no judgment whatsoever, neither a true nor a false judgment. Now since we have no source of know- ledge besides these two, it follows that error is brought about solely by the unobserved influence of sensibility on the under- standing, through which it happens that the subjective grounds of the judgment enter into union with the objective grounds and make these latter deviate from their true function, -- just as a body in motion would always of itself continue in a straight line in the same direction, but if influenced by another force acting in another direction starts off into curvilinear motion. In order to distinguish the specific action of under- standing from the force which is intermixed with it, it is neces- sary to regard the erroneous judgment as the diagonal between two forces -- forces which determine the judgment in different directions that enclose, as it were, an angle -- and to resolve this composite action into the simple actions of the under- standing and of the sensibility. In the case of pure a priori judgments this is a task which falls to be discharged by tran- scendental reflection, through which, as we have already shown, every representation is assigned its place in the corresponding faculty of knowledge, and by which the influence of the one upon the other is therefore likewise distinguished. We are not here concerned with empirical (e.g. optical) illusion, which occurs in the empirical employment of rules of understanding that are otherwise correct, and through which the faculty of judgment is misled by the influence of imagina- tion; we are concerned only with transcendental illusion, which exerts its influence on principles that are in no wise intended for use in experience, in which case we should at least have had a criterion of their correctness. In defiance of all the warnings of criticism, it carries us altogether beyond the empirical employ- ment of categories and puts us off with a merely deceptive exten- sion of pure understanding. ++ Sensibility, when subordinated to understanding, as the object upon which the latter exercises its function, is the source of real modes of knowledge. But the same sensibility, in so far as it in- fluences the operation of understanding, and determines it to make judgments, is the ground of error. P 298 We shall entitle the principles whose application is confined entirely within the limits of possible P 299 experience, immanent; and those, on the other hand, which profess to pass beyond these limits, transcendent. In the case of these latter, I am not referring to the transcendental employ- ment or misemployment of the categories, which is merely an error of the faculty of judgment when it is not duly curbed by criticism, and therefore does not pay sufficient attention to the bounds of the territory within which alone free play is allowed to pure understanding. I mean actual principles which incite us to tear down all those boundary-fences and to seize posses- sion of an entirely new domain which recognises no limits of demarcation. Thus transcendental and transcendent are not interchangeable terms. Edited by jude111 - May 17 2013 at 23:30 |
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jude111
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 20 2009 Location: Not Here Status: Offline Points: 1754 |
Posted: May 17 2013 at 23:47 | |||||
If you want to learn about 'systems of thought,' you'd learn much more from social theorists than philosophers. For example, a film like The Matrix drew from structuralism and post-structuralism, including Foucault and Baudrillard (not to mention that it's been written and analyzed by other theorists, such as Zizek). A comprehensive study of ideology, Marx's model for consciousness (tied to economic activity and social position), ways of seeing, linguistics and language acquisition... This stuff I think will tell us more about our systems of thought than would stuff like Plato or Descartes (who are of course historically important). I can see many people here are using the term "philosophy" very broadly. I'm using the term as it applies to the academic discipline. The only worthwhile uni upper-level philosophy class I took was "Philosophy and the Social Sciences," which was taught by a professor coming at it more from the social theory side. Almost every discipline within the social sciences usually has to take this kind of class, looking at methods, epistemology and ontology. This stuff has real-world application and is therefore quite interesting (at least for me - but I'm a bit deranged, liking these deep subjects, lol). (As far as metaphysics, logic and aesthetics goes - forget it, worthless and antiquated except for a student of history, IMO. And when it comes to analytic philosophy and the logical positivists, I can get downright hostile :-) (There's no other way to see it than as a retreat from history, an American anti-Continental, anti-intellectual, school of thought that was terrified of socialism and the working class, and an attempt to go back into the realm of 'pure thought', insisting that philosophy and science should only be concerned with what can be seen by the eye or touched by the hand, rather than underlying structures or causes that can't be directly seen. Therefore, it's not gravity that causes a ball to drop, it's me letting go of it that caused it. You can't see gravity - nor can you see the economic base of capitalism - therefore neither gravity nor capitalism exist.)
Edited by jude111 - May 19 2013 at 09:55 |
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King Crimson776
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 12 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2779 |
Posted: May 18 2013 at 01:16 | |||||
Perhaps like a head hitting a brick wall? Ok, that's not bouncy... I was hoping you'd have an actual response to him though. Philosophy didn't develop and last this long for no good reason. Its natural that the complex minds of humans will analyze their ways of thinking and make them more efficient. It's totally labored and unhealthy to try and deny this. If we never sorted out the way we think and conceptualize, we would not know which way to develop things like science. They go hand in hand. There might be an endpoint of philosophy, but to deny its place in history is demented. The same goes for religion, by the way. Any negative things that manifested themselves in philosophy and religion were there in human nature to begin with. Also, gotta love the people who think art does nothing more than "entertain". What a dull as dirt way of thinking. Or maybe they'd say any and all positive mindsets can be called results of "entertainment". In that case, what a depraved use of the English language.
Edited by King Crimson776 - May 18 2013 at 01:21 |
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
Posted: May 18 2013 at 02:42 | |||||
Philosophy is not just musing about 'I think therefore I exist'. One might argue that a certain amount of philosophy is required for science to exist and to work. Mathematics and Logic require us to assume certain axioms to be true, we need to agree on what do we mean by 'number', the rules for using mathematical symbols etc.
Without Logic we would not have computers. The interface between Science and Philosophy may be subtle, Einstein worked out his theories mostly guided by his Logic, not by empirical experiment. One might be tempted to say 'by his common sense' which is tricky since it lead him to apparently nonsensical or at least counter-intuitive conclusions such as the invariability of the speed of light of the fact that space's geometry is not euclidean. It was Logic which told him at first that those conclusions, no matter how counter-intuitive, must be true. Then he worked out the mathematical formulations. Things like Godel's incompleteness theorems lie at the fringe between philosophy and mathematics and have real consequences for example in computing science. Quantum theory works and some scientists are happy with it and dismiss taking any stance on its philosophical implications (Feynman's 'shut up and calculate' school of thinking), but many scientists are not happy to just accept the fact that it works and believe that we need to dig deeper into its philosophical implications. Edited by Gerinski - May 18 2013 at 02:51 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: May 18 2013 at 04:03 | |||||
let me think... slugs and snails and puppy-dog tails are more interesting than philosophy, then I find life to be far more interesting than the meaning of life and the observation of life far more interesting than the observation of the meaning of life and the feelings and emotions of the observations of life are far more interesting than the observations of the feelings and emotions of the meaning of life. You can have everything without philosophy because "The Philosophy of..." is a describing thing, the thing exists whether some navel-gazing time-waster describes it or not: history, fictional stories, poetry, music, art, science, mathematics, reality, emotions, love, hate, ambition, dreams, desires, needs, wants all exist without philosophy, philosophy requires at least one of those to exist. Philosophy is not the thing that makes us human, philosophy is the thing that tries to describe why we are human, and it fails every time. Being human is not philosophising, being human is doing. Do you really think song-writers and lyricists are good philosophers or are they pseudo-intellectually obscuring rather simplistic ideas in pretty rhyming words.
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What?
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Larree
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 10 2013 Location: Hollywood, CA Status: Offline Points: 869 |
Posted: May 18 2013 at 04:58 | |||||
^ It all depends on the songwriter/lyricist.
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: May 18 2013 at 04:59 | |||||
The metaphorgotten was a deliberate ploy to avoid an analogy backfire, it requires no answer.
Whatever for? He made it plain there was no point debating with me, so I didn't debate with him.
Dogma and philosophy are intertwined and you cannot discuss (or even diss) philosophy without having a philosophy because that is the circular nature of philosophical debate, I am aware of this dicotomy and always have been, that does not alter my opinion on the subect. I still have a mental image of the tree falling down while Bugs Bunny (or was it Roadrunner) remained sat on the unsuported branch floating in mid air. As I am not sat on a real branch connected to a real tree I can saw away to my heart's content and the tree could still fall. And yes, it would make a sound, just as Bart Simpson can make the sound of one hand clapping.
You seem to have answered your own question there since any positive and neutral things that manifested themselves in philosophy and religion were also there in human nature to begin with. Religion is ritualised philosophy, and they are as incalcitrant and dogmatic as each other. Philosophy (as an academic discipline) persists because we haven't junked it yet like we have with alchemy and astrology.
Yeah, when you make stuff up and put words in peoples' mouths you can come up with any negative conclusion you like. Art can convey a message, the source and content of that message is rarely meaningful or insightful and that does not affect the quality of the art, but if it does not entertain then it is just bad art.
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What?
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
Posted: May 18 2013 at 05:48 | |||||
There's no clear line defining what is philosophy, we can move from the 'hard philosophy' ('are mathematics discovered or invented?' kind of stuff) all the way to just the writings of clever and educated thinkers. Some may say that writers such as Borges or Saramago are more philosophers than fiction writers, their stories always have some message, some deeper meaning, they are written so as to make the reader think about something (not that I'm any expert BTW).
Are 'thinkers' useful to society? I think so, they may not have invented or developed any technological device, but so long as they make people think, that's already a good enough product. |
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23104 |
Posted: May 18 2013 at 05:56 | |||||
The last thing I want here, is to get into a verbal joust with you Dean(mostly because I know I'll have my ass handed over to me), but I think philosophy is integral to the history of the world. Still is. I've been discussing the matter with one of my oldest friends, who now is studying to become professor in physics. The never ending discussion. He's much like you are, and the funny thing about it is that I agree with most of what he says - I just come to different conclusions
Anyway, I think philosophy can be both poisonous as well a marvellous tool to inspect the world around us and inside. Italian philosopher Giorgio Agamben recently taught me a valuable lesson fx. Here's a simplified version, if anyone's interested: http://www.egs.edu/faculty/giorgio-agamben/articles/state-of-exception/
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams |
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