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The T View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2013 at 21:17
Originally posted by Larree Larree wrote:

All great artists have their own philosophies that are the fiber that makes their art breath life.  No philosophy.  No breath.
What you define here as philosophy is not anything else but a worldview or just a way of thinking. All people have one, not just artists. And you have quite the romanticized view of artists. Some of the greatest of all time have been quite regular individuals who didn't want to change the world and didn't care about the "why" of things except how to make their music/colors/letters work to create a work of art.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2013 at 21:18
Originally posted by Larree Larree wrote:

And music does a lot more than "just" entertain me.  If all I wanted was entertainment I would watch one of those music star game shows.  Violin
What else does it do?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2013 at 21:23
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Larree Larree wrote:

All great artists have their own philosophies that are the fiber that makes their art breath life.  No philosophy.  No breath.
What you define here as philosophy is not anything else but a worldview or just a way of thinking. All people have one, not just artists. And you have quite the romanticized view of artists. Some of the greatest of all time have been quite regular individuals who didn't want to change the world and didn't care about the "why" of things except how to make their music/colors/letters work to create a work of art.
 
Uh...philosophy is a world view and a way of thinking on one level.
 
 
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2013 at 21:27
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Larree Larree wrote:

And music does a lot more than "just" entertain me.  If all I wanted was entertainment I would watch one of those music star game shows.  Violin
What else does it do?

Wow.  Really?  Okay.  Music inspires me and invigorates my mind.  Listening to great music makes me want to be more inventive and creative in all aspects of my life.  Is that a good start?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2013 at 21:28
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Larree Larree wrote:

All great artists have their own philosophies that are the fiber that makes their art breath life.  No philosophy.  No breath.
What you define here as philosophy is not anything else but a worldview or just a way of thinking. All people have one, not just artists. And you have quite the romanticized view of artists. Some of the greatest of all time have been quite regular individuals who didn't want to change the world and didn't care about the "why" of things except how to make their music/colors/letters work to create a work of art.
 
Uh...philosophy is a world view and a way of thinking on one level.
 
 

Right on, Dr. Wu!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2013 at 21:32
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Larree Larree wrote:

All great artists have their own philosophies that are the fiber that makes their art breath life.  No philosophy.  No breath.
What you define here as philosophy is not anything else but a worldview or just a way of thinking. All people have one, not just artists. And you have quite the romanticized view of artists. Some of the greatest of all time have been quite regular individuals who didn't want to change the world and didn't care about the "why" of things except how to make their music/colors/letters work to create a work of art.

Come on, T.  Of course those regular individuals wondered why.  Constantly!


Edited by Larree - May 17 2013 at 21:33
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2013 at 21:35
Ok ok. Let's just slow down and really ask ourselves where or what we would be without critical thought that is a prime result of philosophy. Where? I look at so many bands I love and their music is rittled with philosophical concepts and thoughts on a lyrical basis. Sheesh. Subject matter would be somf**king boring if ya ask me.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2013 at 21:35
In my opinion, philosophy is neither important nor unimportant; just a way of trying to understand the universe around us. Music is a very spiritual art form, and I think that philosophy and spirituality are great ways of unleashing a musician's full creative potential. 

I enjoy listening to music with philosophical or abstract themes, but I also enjoy listening to music with simpler themes. It all depends on my mindset.
I am currently digging:

Hawkwind, Rare Bird, Gong, Tangerine Dream, Khan, Iron Butterfly, and all things canterbury and hard-psych. I also love jazz!

Please drop me a message with album suggestions.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2013 at 21:47
Originally posted by The Mystical The Mystical wrote:

In my opinion, philosophy is neither important nor unimportant; just a way of trying to understand the universe around us. Music is a very spiritual art form, and I think that philosophy and spirituality are great ways of unleashing a musician's full creative potential. 

I enjoy listening to music with philosophical or abstract themes, but I also enjoy listening to music with simpler themes. It all depends on my mindset.

Exactly!  Great post!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2013 at 22:05
Originally posted by The Mystical The Mystical wrote:

In my opinion, philosophy is neither important nor unimportant; just a way of trying to understand the universe around us. Music is a very spiritual art form, and I think that philosophy and spirituality are great ways of unleashing a musician's full creative potential. 
I enjoy listening to music with philosophical or abstract themes, but I also enjoy listening to music with simpler themes. It all depends on my mindset.


Well then. You are allowed to board the DEAD CAN DANCE train. :)
Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2013 at 22:20
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Philosophy is a waste of a mind, it is the single most useless invention mankind has ever created, and the nonsense that dribbles from the mouths of pop and rock lyricists are some of the worst example of that. Prog lyrics are often poor poetry and even poorer philosophy even when compared to the inane banality of Hit Me baby One More Time. Why should I think that the probably drunken and possibly drug-addled musings of a singer in a rock band should carry any meaningful message or insight into the human condition. If the words tell a story then great, if they attempt to impart wisdom then ... meh.

Haha, this is bound to cause some controversy. Personally I was drawn to psychology and philosophy as a pre-teen and teen (struggling to read Nietzsche, Freud and Jung, embarrassing! :-), but by my mid-20s saw it as much the same as you do. I became much more interested in sociology and critical theory, which at its best tackles real-world problems and uses exciting methodologies. I'm not saying though that I want lyricists to start quoting or drawing from Bakhtin, Gramsci, Lukacs, or Althusser... Not sure how well it would work in a song :-)

I'm of the mind that when Marx took elements of Hegel's philosophy out of the realm of la-la land and applied it to reality, the social sciences were born, and philosophy was rendered a bit worthless.

At the same time, what fresh horrors were birthed and unleashed? I think Marxism and neo- and post- can be great at interpreting history and current events, and even a bit of prediction - but as a prescriptive application or remedy for capitalism's ills, well... that's another story...

Personally, I think the best application for critical theory and sociological theories is as art and literary/textual criticism, where it can't do too much harm! Certainly, many of these theorists have/had important things to say (Fanon, Freire, etc.), but generally no one's listening anyway - except others who specialize in the same thing (art theory, architecture, film, literature, etc.).


Edited by jude111 - May 18 2013 at 00:25
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2013 at 22:43
Have you guys seriously ever tried to read a real work of philosophy? Here's an excerpt from Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason." Try to read it with comprehension, and without falling asleep. (And perhaps you can also tell me how to apply it when dealing with global warming, the threat of global pandemics, Islamic fundamentalism, Greece's crashing economy, poverty in Detroit, the failing Euro, the rise of China and the competition among the ruling classes of the capitalist countries, etc.):

I
TRANSCENDENTAL ILLUSION 
WE have already entitled dialectic in general a logic of illu-
sion. This does not mean a doctrine of probability; for prob-
ability is truth, known however on insufficient grounds, and
the knowledge of which, though thus imperfect, is not on that
account deceptive; and such doctrine, accordingly, is not to be
separated from the analytic part of logic. Still less justification
have we for regarding appearance and illusion as being identi-
cal. For truth or illusion is not in the object, in so far as it is
intuited, but in the judgment about it, in so far as it is thought. 
It is therefore correct to say that the senses do not err -- not
because they always judge rightly but because they do not
judge at all. Truth and error, therefore, and consequently also
illusion as leading to error, are only to be found in the judg-
ment, i.e. only in the relation of the object to our understand-
ing. In any knowledge which completely accords with the laws
of understanding there is no error. In a representation of the
senses -- as containing no judgment whatsoever -- there is also
no error. No natural force can of itself deviate from its own
laws. Thus neither the understanding by itself (uninfluenced
by another cause), nor the senses by themselves, would fall
into error. The former would not, since, if it acts only accord-
ing to its own laws, the effect (the judgment) must necessarily
be in conformity with these laws; conformity with the laws
P 298
of the understanding is the formal element in all truth. In
the senses there is no judgment whatsoever, neither a true
nor a false judgment. Now since we have no source of know-
ledge besides these two, it follows that error is brought about
solely by the unobserved influence of sensibility on the under-
standing, through which it happens that the subjective grounds
of the judgment enter into union with the objective grounds
and make these latter deviate from their true function, -- just
as a body in motion would always of itself continue in a
straight line in the same direction, but if influenced by another
force acting in another direction starts off into curvilinear
motion. In order to distinguish the specific action of under-
standing from the force which is intermixed with it, it is neces-
sary to regard the erroneous judgment as the diagonal between
two forces -- forces which determine the judgment in different
directions that enclose, as it were, an angle -- and to resolve
this composite action into the simple actions of the under-
standing and of the sensibility. In the case of pure a priori
judgments this is a task which falls to be discharged by tran-
scendental reflection, through which, as we have already shown,
every representation is assigned its place in the corresponding
faculty of knowledge, and by which the influence of the one
upon the other is therefore likewise distinguished. 
We are not here concerned with empirical (e.g. optical)
illusion, which occurs in the empirical employment of rules of
understanding that are otherwise correct, and through which
the faculty of judgment is misled by the influence of imagina-
tion; we are concerned only with transcendental illusion, which
exerts its influence on principles that are in no wise intended for
use in experience, in which case we should at least have had a
criterion of their correctness. In defiance of all the warnings of
criticism, it carries us altogether beyond the empirical employ-
ment of categories and puts us off with a merely deceptive exten-
sion of pure understanding. 
++ Sensibility, when subordinated to understanding, as the object
upon which the latter exercises its function, is the source of real
modes of knowledge. But the same sensibility, in so far as it in-
fluences the operation of understanding, and determines it to make
judgments, is the ground of error. 
P 298
We shall entitle the principles whose
application is confined entirely within the limits of possible
P 299
experience, immanent; and those, on the other hand, which
profess to pass beyond these limits, transcendent. In the case of
these latter, I am not referring to the transcendental employ-
ment or misemployment of the categories, which is merely an
error of the faculty of judgment when it is not duly curbed by
criticism, and therefore does not pay sufficient attention to the
bounds of the territory within which alone free play is allowed
to pure understanding. I mean actual principles which incite
us to tear down all those boundary-fences and to seize posses-
sion of an entirely new domain which recognises no limits of
demarcation. Thus transcendental and transcendent are not
interchangeable terms.


Edited by jude111 - May 17 2013 at 23:30
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2013 at 23:47
Originally posted by HolyMoly HolyMoly wrote:

So that's it, then?  We've got the world figured out, and there's no need to question our systems of thought any more?  I just have a strong feeling that we're not done explaining stuff yet - science has so little to say about what "life" actually is, or how the brain really works, for example.  Some stuff can't be reduced to atoms.


If you want to learn about 'systems of thought,' you'd learn much more from social theorists than philosophers. For example, a film like The Matrix drew from structuralism and post-structuralism, including Foucault and Baudrillard (not to mention that it's been written and analyzed by other theorists, such as Zizek). A comprehensive study of ideology, Marx's model for consciousness (tied to economic activity and social position), ways of seeing, linguistics and language acquisition... This stuff I think will tell us more about our systems of thought than would stuff like Plato or Descartes (who are of course historically important).

I can see many people here are using the term "philosophy" very broadly. I'm using the term as it applies to the academic discipline. The only worthwhile uni upper-level philosophy class I took was "Philosophy and the Social Sciences," which was taught by a professor coming at it more from the social theory side. Almost every discipline within the social sciences usually has to take this kind of class, looking at methods, epistemology and ontology. This stuff has real-world application and is therefore quite interesting (at least for me - but I'm a bit deranged, liking these deep subjects, lol). (As far as metaphysics, logic and aesthetics goes - forget it, worthless and antiquated except for a student of history, IMO. And when it comes to analytic philosophy and the logical positivists, I can get downright hostile :-) (There's no other way to see it than as a retreat from history, an American anti-Continental, anti-intellectual, school of thought that was terrified of socialism and the working class, and an attempt to go back into the realm of 'pure thought', insisting that philosophy and science should only be concerned with what can be seen by the eye or touched by the hand, rather than underlying structures or causes that can't be directly seen. Therefore, it's not gravity that causes a ball to drop, it's me letting go of it that caused it. You can't see gravity - nor can you see the economic base of capitalism - therefore neither gravity nor capitalism exist.)


Edited by jude111 - May 19 2013 at 09:55
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2013 at 01:16
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Monadology Monadology wrote:

Either Dean's attitudes toward philosophy rest of some dogmatic set of values by which the consequences of philosophy are judged, or Dean's attitudes toward philosophy rest of some set of values which was derived from philosophical thinking about what is good and what are bad, by which the consequences of philosophy are judged. In the first case, I think it's safe to say that dogmatically held values have done far more harm than philosophy ever has. In the second case, Dean is sawing the branch supporting him. Either way, there's not much use debating with him.

Yeah, I get that argument a lot and it bounces off me like a bouncy thing hitting a hard thing. Lovers of Philosophy as an academic discipline do get a little prickly when someone dismisses their passion as a mere frippery.

Perhaps like a head hitting a brick wall? Ok, that's not bouncy... I was hoping you'd have an actual response to him though.

Philosophy didn't develop and last this long for no good reason. Its natural that the complex minds of humans will analyze their ways of thinking and make them more efficient. It's totally labored and unhealthy to try and deny this. If we never sorted out the way we think and conceptualize, we would not know which way to develop things like science. They go hand in hand. There might be an endpoint of philosophy, but to deny its place in history is demented. The same goes for religion, by the way. Any negative things that manifested themselves in philosophy and religion were there in human nature to begin with.


Also, gotta love the people who think art does nothing more than "entertain". What a dull as dirt way of thinking. Or maybe they'd say any and all positive mindsets can be called results of "entertainment". In that case, what a depraved use of the English language.


Edited by King Crimson776 - May 18 2013 at 01:21
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2013 at 02:42
Philosophy is not just musing about 'I think therefore I exist'. One might argue that a certain amount of philosophy is required for science to exist and to work. Mathematics and Logic require us to assume certain axioms to be true, we need to agree on what do we mean by 'number', the rules for using mathematical symbols etc.
Without Logic we would not have computers.
The interface between Science and Philosophy may be subtle, Einstein worked out his theories mostly guided by his Logic, not by empirical experiment. One might be tempted to say 'by his common sense' which is tricky since it lead him to apparently nonsensical or at least counter-intuitive conclusions such as the invariability of the speed of light of the fact that space's geometry is not euclidean. It was Logic which told him at first that those conclusions, no matter how counter-intuitive, must be true. Then he worked out the mathematical formulations.
Things like Godel's incompleteness theorems lie at the fringe between philosophy and mathematics and have real consequences for example in computing science.
Quantum theory works and some scientists are happy with it and dismiss taking any stance on its philosophical implications (Feynman's 'shut up and calculate' school of thinking), but many scientists are not happy to just accept the fact that it works and believe that we need to dig deeper into its philosophical implications.



Edited by Gerinski - May 18 2013 at 02:51
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2013 at 04:03
Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

Originally posted by Larree Larree wrote:

If we had no philosophy, history, fictional stories, poetry, or music - yes, music (Because we would not have music either if we did not have the other stuff.) - we would not be conscious of anything except the here and now.  Nothing wrong with here and now, but like I said... if we only had the here and now that would put us on the same level as farm animals.  We would simply be some other creature's food.  


Exactly. f**king boring coputers with meat. I'd say it would be pretty hard to reach Into that inspiration bag and pull out something decent if we had no philosophy. Philosophy is the 'logos' and epistemology of how we disect our beings as a whole. What could be more interesting other than prog of course!?
Ermm let me think... slugs and snails and puppy-dog tails are more interesting than philosophy, then I find life to be far more interesting than the meaning of life and the observation of life far more interesting than the observation of the meaning of life and the feelings and emotions of the observations of life are far more interesting than the observations of the feelings and emotions of the meaning of life. You can have everything without philosophy because "The Philosophy of..." is a describing thing, the thing exists whether some navel-gazing time-waster describes it or not: history, fictional stories, poetry, music, art, science, mathematics, reality, emotions, love, hate, ambition, dreams, desires, needs, wants all exist without philosophy, philosophy requires at least one of those to exist. Philosophy is not the thing that makes us human, philosophy is the thing that tries to describe why we are human, and it fails every time. Being human is not philosophising, being human is doing. Do you really think song-writers and lyricists are good philosophers or are they pseudo-intellectually obscuring rather simplistic ideas in pretty rhyming words.
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2013 at 04:58
^ It all depends on the songwriter/lyricist.  Beer
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2013 at 04:59
Originally posted by King Crimson776 King Crimson776 wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Monadology Monadology wrote:

Either Dean's attitudes toward philosophy rest of some dogmatic set of values by which the consequences of philosophy are judged, or Dean's attitudes toward philosophy rest of some set of values which was derived from philosophical thinking about what is good and what are bad, by which the consequences of philosophy are judged. In the first case, I think it's safe to say that dogmatically held values have done far more harm than philosophy ever has. In the second case, Dean is sawing the branch supporting him. Either way, there's not much use debating with him.

Yeah, I get that argument a lot and it bounces off me like a bouncy thing hitting a hard thing. Lovers of Philosophy as an academic discipline do get a little prickly when someone dismisses their passion as a mere frippery.

Perhaps like a head hitting a brick wall? Ok, that's not bouncy...
The metaphorgotten was a deliberate ploy to avoid an analogy backfire, it requires no answer.
Originally posted by King Crimson776 King Crimson776 wrote:

I was hoping you'd have an actual response to him though.
Whatever for? He made it plain there was no point debating with me, so I didn't debate with him.
 
Dogma and philosophy are intertwined and you cannot discuss (or even diss) philosophy without having a philosophy because that is the circular nature of philosophical debate, I am aware of this dicotomy and always have been, that does not alter my opinion on the subect. I still have a mental image of the tree falling down while Bugs Bunny (or was it Roadrunner) remained sat on the unsuported branch floating in mid air. As I am not sat on a real branch connected to a real tree I can saw away to my heart's content and the tree could still fall. And yes, it would make a sound, just as Bart Simpson can make the sound of one hand clapping.
 
Originally posted by King Crimson776 King Crimson776 wrote:


Philosophy didn't develop and last this long for no good reason. Its natural that the complex minds of humans will analyze their ways of thinking and make them more efficient. It's totally labored and unhealthy to try and deny this. If we never sorted out the way we think and conceptualize, we would not know which way to develop things like science. They go hand in hand. There might be an endpoint of philosophy, but to deny its place in history is demented. The same goes for religion, by the way. Any negative things that manifested themselves in philosophy and religion were there in human nature to begin with.
Ermm You seem to have answered your own question there since any positive and neutral things that manifested themselves in philosophy and religion were also there in human nature to begin with. Religion is ritualised philosophy, and they are as incalcitrant and dogmatic as each other. Philosophy (as an academic discipline) persists because we haven't junked it yet like we have with alchemy and astrology.
Originally posted by King Crimson776 King Crimson776 wrote:


Also, gotta love the people who think art does nothing more than "entertain". What a dull as dirt way of thinking. Or maybe they'd say any and all positive mindsets can be called results of "entertainment". In that case, what a depraved use of the English language.
Yeah, when you make stuff up and put words in peoples' mouths you can come up with any negative conclusion you like. Art can convey a message, the source and content of that message is rarely meaningful or insightful and that does not affect the quality of the art, but if it does not entertain then it is just bad art.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2013 at 05:48
There's no clear line defining what is philosophy, we can move from the 'hard philosophy' ('are mathematics discovered or invented?' kind of stuff) all the way to just the writings of clever and educated thinkers. Some may say that writers such as Borges or Saramago are more philosophers than fiction writers, their stories always have some message, some deeper meaning, they are written so as to make the reader think about something (not that I'm any expert BTW).

Are 'thinkers' useful to society? I think so, they may not have invented or developed any technological device, but so long as they make people think, that's already a good enough product.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2013 at 05:56
The last thing I want here, is to get into a verbal joust with you Dean(mostly because I know I'll have my ass handed over to meLOL), but I think philosophy is integral to the history of the world. Still is. I've been discussing the matter with one of my oldest friends, who now is studying to become professor in physics. The never ending discussion. He's much like you are, and the funny thing about it is that I agree with most of what he says - I just come to different conclusionsLOL

Anyway, I think philosophy can be both poisonous as well a marvellous tool to inspect the world around us and inside.

Italian philosopher Giorgio Agamben recently taught me a valuable lesson fx. Here's a simplified version, if anyone's interested: http://www.egs.edu/faculty/giorgio-agamben/articles/state-of-exception/
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

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