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yam yam View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2013 at 19:45
If I remember correctly there were only the two of them in the team back then, and harmonium.ro was also in sole charge of the New Suggestions forum - a 'no' from him was definitely curtains! LOL
 
But moving along from here - according to the rules, even in 4-man teams a single 'no' vote means that a candidate is automatically rejected (this was the situation in Crossover before I joined the team in January to make it 5), whereas 5-man teams can clear artists on a close-run 3-2 majority (as we do now in Crossover).
 
No - I don't fully understand it either... Ermm
 
And don't EVER ask me to explain this:
 
 
(Don't worry - they were added in Experimental/Post Metal, and I think the band should have been 'removed' from Crossover rather than rejected, after three straight yeses! LOL)
 
For the record, here are the PA voting guidelines:
 
4. Bands being evaluated by a genre team will be accepted on a majority vote of the active team members
4.1 A majority vote will be a number of positive votes in excess of 60% - on teams of 4 or less active members a single No vote will be taken as a veto, rejecting the artist.
4.1.1 Three-man team = 2 Yes votes, 0 No votes
4.1.2 Four-man team = 3 Yes votes, 0 No votes
4.1.3 Five-man team = 3 Yes votes
4.1.4 Six-man team = 4 Yes votes
4.1.5 Seven-man team = 4 Yes votes
 
Hope that helps!  Smile
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2013 at 20:18
If three out of four agree on a four man team, that's 75%, more than pretty much any presidential election has ever won by, nevermind any other kind of election conducted in a similar 'majority rules' manner.

On a three person team, 3 votes is still a ghastly majority, with 66.666% for it. However, the requirement for the vote to be unanimous here is more understandable, but only just.

For comparison, the percent ratio of 3:2 (Yes:No) on a five man team is 60:40, LESS than the ratio of both team compositions below it. I realize it doesn't strictly come down to numbers here, but...wait, yes, it actually does, since it is a voting system based around the number of team members and the number of votes.

Further, the percent ratio on a six man team of 4:2 is 66:34, the EQUIVALENT of a non-passing vote in a 3-man team. Meanwhile, a seven man team with a vote of 4:3 is LESS than that, at 57:43, and it is allowed to pass? You may have to excuse my excessive number-crunching, but I feel it is appropriate in this circumstance.

Perhaps the remedy lies in ensuring the teams are always at a good size, such as 5 or 6? The problem seems to lie in having too few members on a team, and not scaling the voting process effectively with larger teams.

Perhaps I am being a bit nitpicky, and I realize these voting systems were likely carefully planned and well-intentioned, but a bit of the logic is lost on me.

Also, as a sidenote, is there a contingency plan in place for if a subgenre rejects a band that should have gone to another sub, but forgets to reccomend the move? I understand the teams can get incredibly busy, and this idea vexes me for some reason.


Edited by CoolJimmi - May 17 2013 at 20:23
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2013 at 20:22
No contingency plan. I've catered for a couple of hundred such cases myself, don't know if anyone else have taken the time to check.
Websites I work with:

http://www.progressor.net
http://www.houseofprog.com

My profile on Mixcloud:
https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2013 at 20:43
I've stumbled upon a few myself too - & there are doubtless plenty more lurking away somewhere...I expect most will probably get sorted out one way or another in the fullness of time, as fresh suggestions etc get posted for the bands/artists concerned. It's so easy for posts & 'move' recommendations to get 'lost' almost anywhere on the site if they aren't deat with promptly, and subsequently get buried by a load more fresh ones following swiftly on...But we are all only volunteers, with somewhat limited time - there's no easy solution, I'm afraid. Ermm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2013 at 20:49
Perhaps they require someone who's full-time application is to that particular area, no..? *nudge nudge* Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2013 at 20:51
The easiest ones are the teams who use the progfreak system. A lot of teams don't though, and tracking what happened to their MOVE artists basically means scouring through tons and tons of forum posts...
Websites I work with:

http://www.progressor.net
http://www.houseofprog.com

My profile on Mixcloud:
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2013 at 21:08
Scouring is my middle...uh, name, I guess, though that would be an interesting moniker, if not somewhat badass, haha.

I understand the problem with it, and it makes me feel uncomfortable for some reason; when systems do not operate at peak efficiency, I have this compulsory need to rectify it in some manner.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2013 at 21:12
If you really feel like digging - here are some of the bands voted MOVE from the psych team for the last few years. Happy hunting. Some will have been added, others need to be checked.




Alumbrados        
Homepage Myspace us The Amboy Dukes      


it Antares      
Homepage
us Ant-Bee      
Homepage Myspace de Arilyn      
Homepage Myspace
The Atomic Bitchwax  
 

Myspace gr Awake      

Myspace gb Baikonour    
 
Homepage Myspace us Glenn Branca      
Homepage
tr Bunalim      
Homepage

Canterbury Glass      
Homepage Myspace us Citay      

Myspace us Clearlight      


us The Common Ground Of Franks, Malgeri And Pauciello    
 
Homepage
us Date Palms    
 
Homepage Myspace us Dyonisos      

Myspace fr Eidôlon      

Myspace us Elektryk Bestia      
Homepage Myspace us Everest Days        

Myspace
Experimental Audio Research      
Homepage Myspace gb Rebsie Fairholm      
Homepage Myspace us The Flaming Lips      
Homepage
us Flössin    
 


dk Föreningen Til Livets Beskytelse      

Myspace jp Fullarmor      
Homepage Myspace it Fungus      


jp Galax        

Myspace it Gandalf's Project    
 

Myspace ru The Grand Astoria      
Homepage Myspace us Gravity Tree        
Homepage
jp Hal & Ring      
Homepage
jp The Happenings Four      
Homepage Myspace pl Hipgnosis    
 

Myspace
Insigne        


gr Iraklis  
 


se Iskra      



Ivory      


gb Jasper      


us Jungle      
Homepage
us Kaleidoscope      
Homepage Myspace gb Kasper Rosa      
Homepage
ua Alexander Khodchenko    
 


es Koska      
Homepage
us Little Hans    
 
Homepage
gb The Lollipop Shoppe        
Homepage
jp Losalios        
Homepage Myspace de Loxley Beade      
Homepage Myspace jp Kawabata Makoto        


us Mary Butterworth      

Myspace
Pat Mastelotto, and Pamelia Kurstin    

Websites I work with:

http://www.progressor.net
http://www.houseofprog.com

My profile on Mixcloud:
https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2013 at 21:14
I will actually quite happily jump all over that after I get back from a friend's birthday party.

Thank you very much, Windhwak Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2013 at 21:22
Supplementing with the MOVE bands from Post:

pk 6LA8    
 
Homepage Myspace us Apse          
Homepage Myspace de Bohren & der Club of Gore          

Myspace pt Catacombe    
 
Homepage Myspace
Clogs          
Homepage Myspace si Coma Stereo        

Myspace us Concentric    
 
Homepage Myspace yu Consecration    
 
Homepage Myspace ro Discordless      
 

Myspace us East of the Wall          

Myspace
East Rodeo    
 
Homepage Myspace nz Ender        
Homepage Myspace us Every Other Fate          
Homepage Myspace us Fang Island      
Homepage Myspace us Grails          
Homepage Myspace nz High Dependency Unit      
 
Homepage Myspace gb Jesu          

Myspace ar Lenin        

Myspace nz Mammoth          

Myspace pl Merkabah        

Myspace fr Myster Möbius        
Homepage Myspace it Oniric          

Myspace in Phobia        

Myspace mx Stabilimentum        
Homepage Myspace au The Longest Day    
 
Homepage Myspace ie The Redneck Manifesto      
Homepage
it Vanessa Van Basten        

Myspace fi Veljeni Valas      

Myspace us Windmills By The Ocean          
Homepage Myspace us Witt      
 
Homepage Myspace rs Zemlja Broj 9    

Websites I work with:

http://www.progressor.net
http://www.houseofprog.com

My profile on Mixcloud:
https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2013 at 21:22
and from Heavy:

us 100 Ounces        

Myspace us 41Point9        
Homepage
ro Absurdcus        
Homepage Myspace nl A Liquid Landscape        
Homepage Myspace fr Alkemy        


ca Amish      
Homepage
id Attilion        

Myspace ca Criminal Caterpillar      

Myspace br Deventter          
Homepage Myspace ca Diatessaron        
Homepage Myspace us Dream The Electric Sleep      
Homepage
de Even Horses      
Homepage Myspace us Gospel          

Myspace ar La Incredible Fuga de Triangulos        


es Koska        
Homepage
hu Nine Books        
Homepage
ca NoMeansNo      
Homepage
ca Nucleus        
Homepage
jp Rin Tosh*te Shigure      


us Omar Rodriguez-Lopez        

Myspace bg Smallman        
 

Myspace us Total B.S.      

Websites I work with:

http://www.progressor.net
http://www.houseofprog.com

My profile on Mixcloud:
https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2013 at 21:23
and a few from RIO:

Myspace be 48 Cameras          


gb AMM            
Homepage Myspace ru Auktyon        
Homepage
fi Avarus      
 


fr Bedjabetch            


us Tyondai Braxton        


us Eugene Chadbourne            


us Crazy Backwards Alphabet        

Myspace us Creedle    
 
Homepage
fr Cruciferius            
Homepage Myspace us The Dead Kenny G      
 

Myspace gb Don Bradshaw-Leather    
 


fr Alain Eckert Quartet            

Myspace us Elektryk Bestia        
Homepage
fi Ensemble Ambrosius          

Myspace fr Ex Vitae            
Homepage Myspace be Flat Earth Society            
Homepage
us Foetus            


us Bill Frisell            

Myspace us Fun Machine            
Homepage Myspace fr Guillaume Perret & the Electric Epic            


us Iceburn Collective      
 
Homepage Myspace us The Invincible Czars            

Myspace cz Jablkoň            
Homepage Myspace us Jerseyband        
Homepage
dk Joke Inc      
 
Homepage
de Emanuel Leander König    
 
Homepage Myspace fr Maledictus Sound          


us Material            

Myspace fr Mentat Routage            
Homepage Myspace gb Mothlite            
Homepage
be My Skinny Wonderland            


se Nya Ljudbolaget            
Homepage
us Oho        

Myspace fr Pryapisme      
 


au Quasar      
 


se Rättan Frittz            
Homepage
us Religious Girls      
 

Myspace fr Rien        
Homepage
nl Rosa Ensemble            

Myspace it SKE          
Homepage
fr The Snobs    
 

Myspace gb Spratleys Japs        
Homepage Myspace us Star FK Radium    
 


fr St. Erhart        
Homepage Myspace fr TeTsuo            

Myspace jp Trio96      
 

Myspace us Tuner        
Homepage Myspace us Tuxedomoon            
Homepage Myspace fr Urban Sax      

Websites I work with:

http://www.progressor.net
http://www.houseofprog.com

My profile on Mixcloud:
https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2013 at 21:24
and Eclectic:

us Bead Game        
 
Homepage
us Casualties of Applied Metaphysics      
 

Myspace mx Delta Red          
 

Myspace us Dinner Music For The Gods            
 
Homepage
jp Geinoh Yamashirogumi            
 
Homepage Myspace us Human Life Index          
 

Myspace tr Baris Manço        
 
Homepage Myspace us Mars Hollow          
 


no Octopus        
 

Myspace nz Schtung            
 
Homepage Myspace do El Trio        

Websites I work with:

http://www.progressor.net
http://www.houseofprog.com

My profile on Mixcloud:
https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2013 at 22:03
Originally posted by CoolJimmi CoolJimmi wrote:

If three out of four agree on a four man team, that's 75%, more than pretty much any presidential election has ever won by, nevermind any other kind of election conducted in a similar 'majority rules' manner.

On a three person team, 3 votes is still a ghastly majority, with 66.666% for it. However, the requirement for the vote to be unanimous here is more understandable, but only just.

For comparison, the percent ratio of 3:2 (Yes:No) on a five man team is 60:40, LESS than the ratio of both team compositions below it. I realize it doesn't strictly come down to numbers here, but...wait, yes, it actually does, since it is a voting system based around the number of team members and the number of votes.

Further, the percent ratio on a six man team of 4:2 is 66:34, the EQUIVALENT of a non-passing vote in a 3-man team. Meanwhile, a seven man team with a vote of 4:3 is LESS than that, at 57:43, and it is allowed to pass? You may have to excuse my excessive number-crunching, but I feel it is appropriate in this circumstance.

Perhaps the remedy lies in ensuring the teams are always at a good size, such as 5 or 6? The problem seems to lie in having too few members on a team, and not scaling the voting process effectively with larger teams.

Perhaps I am being a bit nitpicky, and I realize these voting systems were likely carefully planned and well-intentioned, but a bit of the logic is lost on me.

Also, as a sidenote, is there a contingency plan in place for if a subgenre rejects a band that should have gone to another sub, but forgets to reccomend the move? I understand the teams can get incredibly busy, and this idea vexes me for some reason.
 
You lost me somewhere between DeMoivre's Theorem and Fourier Analysis, but a situation where 3-2 is ok, and 3-1 isn't does strike me as being somewhat barmy! LOL
 
And looking at those 'move' charts...Jeez - I've opened up a real can of worms here, haven't I...All because I did a search for 'The End Of The Ocean', and turned this thread up when I whittled it down to just 'Ocean' as a final check!
 
Travis - if you want to spend a few hours delving away, then I'm sure everyone here would be eternally grateful to you for any 'unfinished business' you managed to turn up! Approve
 
Looking at it realistically though, only six teams currently use progfreak - Neo, Crossover, Psych/Space, Heavy, RIO/Avant and Prog Metal. Others have used it at various times in the past, and will show up in some artist's charts, but take the Eclectic 'move' chart on there for instance - all that happened at least three years ago - they haven't used progfreak since, and all recent 'moves' have been done solely via messages posted in the team threads in the collab zone, and their charts themselves are maintained within the team threads too. To be honest, without access to the collab zone you won't get far with your investigation at all. Even the teams that do use progfreak action their 'moves' via messages posted in each other's team threads, and without being able to check that these messages have actually been posted...and then responded to...you are up the creek without a paddle! Some evaluations you would be able to follow on progfreak to a certain extent, but eventually you would still have to resort to the team thread in the collab zone to find out exactly where it all went tits-up.
Progfreak is an extremely useful tool for keeping tabs on an evaluation - the problem with it is that there are no 'back', 'undo', 'edit' or 'delete' buttons anywhere. Everything you do is recorded and kept - the only way to alter stuff in any way if you screw up is to email the site owner, Mike, and get him to fix it for you. I guess that's why some teams would rather avoid the site and keep their business where they are fully in control of it.
On a more positive note - if you keep up the enthusiasm for the site you have demonstrated over the past few weeks, it shouldn't be all that long before you do join the ranks of the collaborators on here.


Edited by yam yam - May 17 2013 at 23:11
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2013 at 05:28
I am quite the purveyor of prog and other artful musics, and becoming a collab of any sort would be a great honor and personal goal of mine, but I shall preserve that for the future, eh?

For now, I have a good deal of interesting music to evaluate and re-reccommend to the appropriate team(s), so I'll have to get back to you on that whole 'realistically' nonsense Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2013 at 05:52
As for my first act, Alumbrados (the first band listed up there in Psych), while being psychedelic in nature, would most likely fit into either Avant-Prog or Prog Folk, given this here:



An offshoot of Bardo Pond (a band currently in the Psyche sub), they experiment with free improvisation and droning, post-rockish folk, utilizing many, many ethnic and esoteric instruments.

Their compositions are quite lengthy, their longest track clocking in at over 37 minutes long, making the fact that only 3 official studio releases are out a bit less biting, plus their very interesting 'Live from Constantinople' CD, featuring 3 'Untitled' songs, which are essentially post-psychedelic free folk jams - a moniker I would use to describe their overall sound.

"Much different than the lumbering jams of another Bardo Pond’s offshot Alasehir are the drenched ethno-drones of Alumbrado. Featuring John & Michael Gibbons on guitar, sitar, cumbas and various percussive instruments as well as Michael Zanghi and Aaron Igler with additional electronics and percussion. Alumbrados is a beautiful, rhythmic and tremendously arranged psychedelic experience. 

“Alumbrados investigations are as thorough and as reliable as researches by material scientists, but not as easily demonstrable to the general public. Spiritual powers lie dormant within every human being, and when awakened, they compensate for both telescope and microscope, they enable their possessor to investigate, instanter, things beyond the veil of matter, but they are only developed by a patient application and continuance in well doing extended over years, and few are they who have faith to start upon the path to attainment to perseverance to go through with the ordeal.” - Michael Gibbons"

Very interesting indeed, especially after taking this journey:





Wish I could find a stream of their super long acid song, but all I can dig up are downloads Ermm

In conclusion, I would send them over to the RIO/Avant team, but Prog Folk might also want a stab at them, though they are almost certainly too far removed from anything sane and practical to fit anywhere else but in RIO/Avant, where I do believe they should rightfully be taken.

Before I continue my crusade, where shall I put these? Should I create a new thread in the "Submissions" forum to house all my investigations? One of the lounges? Somewhere else?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2013 at 06:04
Take them to a new suggest artist thread, each and every case ;-)

That's the easiest way.
Websites I work with:

http://www.progressor.net
http://www.houseofprog.com

My profile on Mixcloud:
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2013 at 06:32
But here is where this 'crusade' hits the buffers to a certain extent...There are several posts in the Psych team thread concerning the original Alumbrados suggestion.They were actually moved to Indo Prog/Raga Rock on 13th November 2009 (the sub has no thread of its own, but is dealt with within the Kraut team thread) where this comment was made:  "I've just discovered a few pieces from this curious band. It sounds like a medley of buzzing static sitar sequences, abrasive electric noises punctuated by cinematic-acoustic minimal guitar leads within dreamy-like / ritual proportions. It's closed to the acid-droning folk side of the subgenre (a few bands are already included). I don't see any objection...we can add them." Obviously it would be wrong for me to say out here in full public view from whom the comment originally came, but suffice it to say the addition was never made.
 
You really do need access to the collab zone threads to check up properly on these 'lost' bands and artists. Starting a fresh topic is all well and good, but in many cases (such as this one you) would be starting out from scratch again where it would probably be possible to sort the matter out once and for all with a simple 'bump' in the appropriate place within the collab zone.
 
Am I making any sense?
 
I would recommend that you be given access to the collab zone with immediate effect in order to carry out this quite important work that you have so kindly offered to do for us, but it isn't my call. Someone way above my own status would have to get this agreed for you with the admin dept.
 
Edit: I have now 'bumped' the original suggestion in Kraut's team thread, so perhaps we should wait and see if anything transpires before actually creating a fresh thread for these guys? Ermm


Edited by yam yam - May 18 2013 at 07:08
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2013 at 07:04
I'm in favor of giving this eager helper the possibility to help out with chores such as this one. Very much so, which is why I dished out some of the amount of work that needed doing in this department to monitor the reaction really :-)

I'll kick this thread out to an admin, and while my voice doesn't carry that much weight it's a start. If others could chime in on the cause as well it would be nice. We're all in favor of people who like to haul a lot of weight around here after all :-)
Websites I work with:

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http://www.houseofprog.com

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2013 at 07:10
Nice one Olav! Approve I agree 100% - we need to get guys like Travis on board asap.  Thumbs Up
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