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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Points: 37575
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Posted: May 17 2013 at 16:56 |
Dayvenkirq wrote:
Not exactly life-changing, but changing the person's thinking. |
You mean like Charles Manson and Helter Skelter?
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The T
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
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Points: 17493
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Posted: May 17 2013 at 17:02 |
Dayvenkirq wrote:
Not exactly life-changing, but changing the person's thinking. |
If a 4-minute rock song (or 10, it's prog after all) managed to change one person's mind, I'd be wary of trusting that person with... Anything.
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Dean
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Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Posted: May 17 2013 at 17:04 |
HolyMoly wrote:
In defense of Philosophy, I believe that Philosophy both shapes and reflects upon the patterns of thought held by a society. If we rewind back to Aristotelian times, his exhaustive and methodical segmenting of the natural world eventually gave birth to our entire study of science and the standards of logic. We take for granted that these laws of nature, these logical truths have always been there, but if so, where were they? It's all based upon a set of analogs, the logos of our Western thought, that originated from Philosophy. This is why cultures so different from our own seem so alien and (sometimes, crassly put), "stupid", because they don't adhere to the basic "truths" that we take for granted. But their systems work too -- their reality is based on a different set of analogs, a different philosophy.
I would probably agree with Dean that Philosophy has done more harm than good - but not because it's useless and empty, but because the Philosophy itself is the basis for everything good and bad. It's the whole thing. Great sea changes in civilization (Renaissance, Major Scientific advances, etc), the growing pains of mankind, all originate from new developments in Philosophy. I think it behooves us to want to understand what is at the very roots of our belief system, if progress is to be possible.
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Since Aristotle's time we have managed to separate out the disciplines of Science, Philosophy and Alchemy - one of these permits the major advances we have experience, one of them we have discarded as charlatan, the other hangs on by the skin of its teeth because...
HolyMoly wrote:
Plus, I majored in Philosophy biyyaaatch
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HolyMoly
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin
Joined: April 01 2009
Location: Atlanta
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Points: 26138
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Posted: May 17 2013 at 17:18 |
Dean wrote:
HolyMoly wrote:
In defense of Philosophy, I believe that Philosophy both shapes and reflects upon the patterns of thought held by a society. If we rewind back to Aristotelian times, his exhaustive and methodical segmenting of the natural world eventually gave birth to our entire study of science and the standards of logic. We take for granted that these laws of nature, these logical truths have always been there, but if so, where were they? It's all based upon a set of analogs, the logos of our Western thought, that originated from Philosophy. This is why cultures so different from our own seem so alien and (sometimes, crassly put), "stupid", because they don't adhere to the basic "truths" that we take for granted. But their systems work too -- their reality is based on a different set of analogs, a different philosophy.
I would probably agree with Dean that Philosophy has done more harm than good - but not because it's useless and empty, but because the Philosophy itself is the basis for everything good and bad. It's the whole thing. Great sea changes in civilization (Renaissance, Major Scientific advances, etc), the growing pains of mankind, all originate from new developments in Philosophy. I think it behooves us to want to understand what is at the very roots of our belief system, if progress is to be possible.
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Since Aristotle's time we have managed to separate out the disciplines of Science, Philosophy and Alchemy - one of these permits the major advances we have experience, one of them we have discarded as charlatan, the other hangs on by the skin of its teeth because...
HolyMoly wrote:
Plus, I majored in Philosophy biyyaaatch
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So that's it, then? We've got the world figured out, and there's no need to question our systems of thought any more? I just have a strong feeling that we're not done explaining stuff yet - science has so little to say about what "life" actually is, or how the brain really works, for example. Some stuff can't be reduced to atoms.
I will, however, tip my hat to you for cleverly using my own postscript as the exclamation point on your argument. That was pretty cool. . I'm probably in over my head, advancing what must sound like a load of mystical BS, but what the hey. It's a topic that interests me.
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My other avatar is a Porsche
It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased.
-Kehlog Albran
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
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Posted: May 17 2013 at 17:26 |
Dean wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
Not exactly life-changing, but changing the person's thinking. | You mean like Charles Manson and Helter Skelter? |
Don't know anything about that.
The T wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
Not exactly life-changing, but changing the person's thinking. | If a 4-minute rock song (or 10, it's prog after all) managed to change one person's mind, I'd be wary of trusting that person with... Anything. |
What if it's an ambient piece ... or a series of ambient pieces?
Oh, wait ... now we are not talking lyrics. ... What about just something of Waters or Hammill type?
Edited by Dayvenkirq - May 17 2013 at 17:31
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Larree
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 10 2013
Location: Hollywood, CA
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Points: 869
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Posted: May 17 2013 at 17:30 |
"Geez, what else do you want the song to do, flip your pancakes?" |
Yes! And fry up some bacon, too!
Edited by Larree - May 17 2013 at 17:51
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Larree
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 10 2013
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Points: 869
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Posted: May 17 2013 at 17:33 |
I like the lyrics of Robert Hunter.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Points: 37575
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Posted: May 17 2013 at 18:17 |
HolyMoly wrote:
So that's it, then? We've got the world figured out, and there's no need to question our systems of thought any more? I just have a strong feeling that we're not done explaining stuff yet - science has so little to say about what "life" actually is, or how the brain really works, for example. Some stuff can't be reduced to atoms. |
Philosophy does not answer any of those, nor does it even attempt to get close to explaining any of them. In 3000 years of documented Philosophy we've not one single philosophical explanation of anything that has any practical application. In fact philosophy has been so self-absorbed it has managed to confuse itself on exactly what an explanation is such that it is impossible to give an explanation on what actually constitutes an explanation. Philosophy is never going to tell us what "life" actually is no matter how many philosophers we put onto the problem, we will never arrive at an explanation - an infinity of philosophers pounding at an infinity of typewriters for an eternity will result in precisely nothing... So Mr Kant, we arrive at the end of the Universe so it is time to see what you have produced in that eternity on your trusty Remington Model No.5, so let us look at what have you written here? "To be is to do", Right. Is that it? Really? The sum total of an infinity of years of work is six words that we in the trade call 'taking the piss'... you do realise that people will be making jokes about this in the future; anything else? "Happiness is not an ideal of reason, but of imagination"... right, I see, you managed a few more random words there that almost make sense... if you'd spent a night at the tavern on cheap wine that is; any other pearls of wisdom you wish to share? "Science is organised knowledge. Wisdom is organised life" .. okay, two nights in the tavern and a pipeful of wacky-baccy; one more before I throw you out? "I had therefore to remove knowledge, in order to make room for belief" ... somehow that doesn't surprise me one bit, you mind that door doesn't swing back and hit you on your arse as you leave... "Ingratitude is the essence of vileness." Oh, go home and annoy someone else.
Philosophy has never figured anything out and I honestly don't expect that it ever will, the process of looking for the answer is not the goal... that's like firing randomly at a wall, drawing targets around where the bullets didn't hit and feeling smug about it. "These aren't the droids you're looking for."
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The T
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: May 17 2013 at 18:44 |
^Dean, today I can't agree more with you.
Though it actually has a purpose, as I have said before: to ensure that there are future generations of philosophers who teach philosophy so there can be schools where new philosophers are trained to be the future professors.
Wow, philosophy has a life of its own. It's self-sustaining.
Edited by The T - May 17 2013 at 18:46
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Larree
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 10 2013
Location: Hollywood, CA
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Points: 869
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Posted: May 17 2013 at 19:37 |
If we had no philosophy, history, fictional stories, poetry, or music - yes, music (Because we would not have music either if we did not have the other stuff.) - we would not be conscious of anything except the here and now. Nothing wrong with here and now, but like I said... if we only had the here and now that would put us on the same level as farm animals. We would simply be some other creature's food.
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The T
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Joined: October 16 2006
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Posted: May 17 2013 at 19:41 |
False. We could still have music, history, and all the rest without philosophy. All the rest have an specific objective/purpose/matter/whatever. Only philosophy concerns itself with answering unanswerable questions. History tells us what happened. Music entertains us. So does poetry. Philosophy asks obvious questions and poses no real answers. I'm not seeing the connection you make. Music, history, poetry, is the here and the now (or "then" in history). Philosophy is the "what the hell".
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Larree
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 10 2013
Location: Hollywood, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 869
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Posted: May 17 2013 at 19:48 |
^ Actually true. Because it's all connected. All art has connections to philosophy. We would be robots without it. Our art would suck.
Edited by Larree - May 17 2013 at 20:04
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
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Points: 17493
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Posted: May 17 2013 at 20:17 |
What?
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Larree
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 10 2013
Location: Hollywood, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 869
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Posted: May 17 2013 at 20:38 |
All great artists have their own philosophies that are the fiber that makes their art breath life. No philosophy. No breath.
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 20623
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Posted: May 17 2013 at 20:57 |
The T wrote:
A song change a person's life? I'm not too clear on the possibilities of that. |
Not sure who it was here but someone said Revealing Science of God by Yes made him think about going into a different carreer.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
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dr wu23
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Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 20623
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Posted: May 17 2013 at 20:58 |
Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:
dr wu23 wrote:
"Heroes hands drain stones for blood To whet the scaling knife. Magi blind with visions light Net death in dread of life. Their children kneel in jesus till They learn the price of nails; Whilst all around our mother earth Waits balanced on the scales."
To me very evocative stuff. |
Whereas to me it reads as complete bollocks and I'm a huge KC fan. I guess mileage varies. |
Well...you just don't understand it then.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
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dr wu23
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Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
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Points: 20623
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Posted: May 17 2013 at 21:01 |
The T wrote:
Wow, philosophy has a life of its own. It's self-sustaining. |
Yes..just like politics and progressive rock websites.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 20623
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Posted: May 17 2013 at 21:03 |
Larree wrote:
^ Actually true. Because it's all connected. All art has connections to philosophy. We would be robots without it. Our art would suck. |
Spot on......but the material reductionists simply don't get that,,, or don't want to. To them it's all just hardwired brain cells, etc etc....nothing to see here move on.
Edited by dr wu23 - May 17 2013 at 21:18
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
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Larree
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 10 2013
Location: Hollywood, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 869
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Posted: May 17 2013 at 21:04 |
And music does a lot more than "just" entertain me. If all I wanted was entertainment I would watch one of those music star game shows.
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progbethyname
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 30 2012
Location: HiFi Headmania
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Points: 7849
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Posted: May 17 2013 at 21:15 |
Larree wrote:
If we had no philosophy, history, fictional stories, poetry, or music - yes, music (Because we would not have music either if we did not have the other stuff.) - we would not be conscious of anything except the here and now. Nothing wrong with here and now, but like I said... if we only had the here and now that would put us on the same level as farm animals. We would simply be some other creature's food. |
Exactly. f**king boring coputers with meat. I'd say it would be pretty hard to reach Into that inspiration bag and pull out something decent if we had no philosophy. Philosophy is the 'logos' and epistemology of how we disect our beings as a whole. What could be more interesting other than prog of course!?
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Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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