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Topic ClosedSteven Wilson Vs. Roine Stolt
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Ambient Hurricanes View Drop Down
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Points: 2549 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 22 2012 at 22:21
Originally posted by Horizons Horizons wrote:

Progsters mad at (bad) pop. What else is new LOL

There is good pop on the radio at the moment - Gotye. 
but anyway...

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Are their other songs better than Somebody That I Used To Know?  I've heard it on the radio and didn't think it was very good.
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Points: 374 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2012 at 00:18
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by Horizons Horizons wrote:

Progsters mad at (bad) pop. What else is new LOL

There is good pop on the radio at the moment - Gotye. 
but anyway...

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Are their other songs better than Somebody That I Used To Know?  I've heard it on the radio and didn't think it was very good.
I assume so, he's been popular in the underground music scene for awhile, Somebody That I Used to Know just happened to be a hit. My cousins are big fans of his and have been since he started but I haven't listened to much outside of his big hit, but what I have heard is pretty decent stuff. He sounds a lot like Peter Gabriel in my opinion (and to the opinion of many critics).
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Points: 593 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 25 2012 at 07:06
I would generally agree on SW comments on The Flower Kings - not completely, because I like also some of TFK stuff very much.  Thing I miss usually in TFK music is genuine inspiration. TFK endless compositions lack memorable pieces and melodies, and tend to recycle their old ideas sometimes in very stiff way. I do not have a problem with them because of sounding "too retro" or "regressive" though. BUT I love Transatlantic equally as Porcupine Tree. Both band are usually full of inspirational ideas. So does it make me SW or RS follower? 


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Points: 7 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2012 at 15:57
I like the flower Kings and like them very much, Transatlantic I do find formulated, I think Mr Wilson needs to be carefull hear, is he saying that true form progression is via bands like Porcupine Tree or Mars Volta Raidiohead and so on and that the past should be left there.
Trouble is when Mr Wilson picks up his pay for remastering Emerson Lake and Palmer or King Crimson, his argument falls flat.
Also everything been done there is nothing 100% original these days all borrow from here or there, or diffrent era's 60's 70's and so on.
 
 HIs solo work is clearly reaching for dark avenues,but his works are not so obscure that the music has never been heared, early Pink floyd eaisly comes to mind, I think in his attempt to be original the balance is all wrong, I find his solo work tedious and boring at times, with Porcupine Tree the music is more measured and thoughtfull.
 
I don't think he is any position to demand bands chose a certain path, let the music take care of its self, people who love and appriciate good music can decide for themselves.
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Points: 774 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2012 at 05:13
Around the same time SW made this statement, he appeared in some magazine with his all-time favourite British albums. His #1 was "Ummagumma". Then I felt that someone who thinks tuneless crap is the best thing ever done couldn't be taken seriously.
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Points: 12732 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2012 at 11:26
The Ummagumma live album is really excellent, for me. The Studio one is a mixed bag, some nice moments and some utterly unlistenable ones. Now, Coma Divine, from Porcupine Tree, does seem to carry on the Ummagumma feel, and I really love that album because of that.
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Points: 7951 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 02 2012 at 23:03
I haven't read this whole thread. I do not actually know the current generation of Prog as well as I would like to. I just got through reading a thread about alarming (or perhaps humorous) comments by Ian Anderson, which although a bit different seem not unrelated to this. There's one comment right off that I want make about SW's comments that really ticks me off. My father read science fiction and fantasy. I was brought up reading science fiction and fantasy. I have friends who read science fiction and fantasy. Lots of people read science fiction and fantasy, more probably now than in 1972. Just look at the space devoted to it in just about any bookstore. A science fiction or fantasy lyric is not "rubbish" simply because it science fiction or fantasy.

Oh, and I was deeply into mythology too when I was younger.
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Points: 1029 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 03 2012 at 00:40
I like science fiction and fantasy too, and am of course, a prog fan. I think what Wilson really meant is that the neo prog movement is not doing anything new. Anyway, this interview was from seven years ago. I think SW has softened his stance on prog since then, he used to not much like the label. 
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Points: 523 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 03 2012 at 10:26

Originally posted by Kashmir75 Kashmir75 wrote:

Anyway, this interview was from seven years ago. I think SW has softened his stance on prog since then, he used to not much like the label. 
Well, of course, it's much cooler and trendier to be associated with Progressive Rock now than it was in 2005 isn't it? I would think that has something to do with him "softening his stance" on the label Wink
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Points: 33 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 03 2012 at 12:47
For those who understand french read this interview:
http://www.amarokprog.net/articles_205_467.html
I think Roine himself forgot the whole thing. And Steven shows nowadays his love towards into remixing King Crimson, Jethro Tull and ELP.
I think this discussion is from another time.
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Points: 59 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 04 2012 at 14:49

As much as I've admired Steven Wilson through his work with Porcupine Tree, I'm utterly shocked by his statement. He claims that the Flower Kings and Transatlantic are the death of progressive music, yet the only bands SW actually listens to include dark or death-related lyrics. Not sure how that remark came out of Steven's mouth LOL 
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Points: 28029 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2012 at 01:22
^ As I've pointed out before there is no problem if you understand and define 'progressive music' in the same way that Steven understands and defines it. In my opinion The Flower Kings have added very little to progressive music and no one could answer my question 'in what ways have TFK evolved since the 90's'. They have done well in reflecting seventies symphonic prog using modern recording techniques but I hear little in the way of music evolution. BUT thats by the by. The problem for me is that Steven put himself on a pedestal in deciding to be both judge and jury on what constitutes 'progressive rock music'. He simply should not have done that and has been justifiably berated for it (even though I sort of agree with his commentsSmile)
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Points: 10964 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2012 at 01:38
Certainly The Flower Kings have evolved; Jonas Reingold's addition to the band had an enormous impact on their sound. Their later albums Adam & Eve and Paradox Hotel are different from their older albums, as well as their new one.
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Points: 28029 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2012 at 14:06
^ in what way though?
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Points: 6 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2012 at 12:20
It's astonishing to read what Steven Wilson had to say. Of all people making music today he dares to call out the FK and Transatlantic and questions their "progresiveness"? For SW to call out the aforementioned bands and to say that they are recycling old ideas is preposterous; when SW himself is copying and pasting old and tired riffs, from Opeth and other "dark" metal bands, into his own music.

Steven Wilson makes "pop art rock"; no more, no less. He's very good at it and has certainly learned studio techniques to yield some excellent recordings; but so have many others. He doesn't have a monopoly on recording prowess.

SW thinks he's much more important than he actually is. He fashions himself as a cross between Robert Fripp and David Bowie; or maybe Fripp and McCartney/Lennon. I dunno which combo he feels he's closest to, but he's on some trip that won't let him see reality.

Most of SW's work is boring, cookie cutter "heavy metal" riffing with the occassional spacey interlude with some Brit Pop thrown in to ensure that the mainstream gets his attention. His formula is probably one of THE MOST transparent in the so-called "progressive music" world. In fact, when I first listened to 'In Absentia' the first thing I asked myself was: how on earth can this music be classified as "progressive" when it sounds like POP?

Steven: stop taking yourself so seriously. You're a musician with little virtuosity or harmonic inventiveness but with LOTS of pop production and marketing savvy. Your skillset is not a bad thing, really. You've allowed many new/younger fans to become curious about REAL prog and many have explored the more adventurous side of the genre. For that, you must be commended.

But stop the false pretenses and respect the virtuosos of the genre. You're sounding like a child.

[edit]
BTW, Opeth's latest 'Heritage' is about as retro as any album in recent memory; right down to the Blackmore riffs ripped from 'Gates of Babylon'.  In fact, large portions of 'Heritage' sound like Rainbow and I consider the latest Opeth effort a tribute to Blackmore(whether Åkerfeldt will own up to it or not is another thing). Of course, there's the 70s Black Sabbath influence oozing out at every turn.

If Steven Wilson was such a purist and against bands that go back in order to move forward, then why did he MIX Opeth's Heritage?

Ah, Steven Wilson, words do come back to bite us, don't they?


Edited by wbiphoto - September 06 2012 at 14:18
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Points: 7849 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2012 at 12:26


Mr. Wilson!!!
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Points: 10964 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2012 at 14:49
Originally posted by wbiphoto wbiphoto wrote:


BTW, Opeth's latest 'Heritage' is about as retro as any album in recent memory; right down to the Blackmore riffs ripped from 'Gates of Babylon'.  In fact, large portions of 'Heritage' sound like Rainbow and I consider the latest Opeth effort a tribute to Blackmore(whether Åkerfeldt will own up to it or not is another thing). Of course, there's the 70s Black Sabbath influence oozing out at every turn.



Mikael Akerfeldt has actually admitted (on the Heritage making-of DVD) that some stuff on the album is a tribute of sorts to Ronnie James Dio. But he's never admitted to being progressive by definition, and has also commented that much of his influences for Heritage came from obscure 70s prog bands.
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Points: 6 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2012 at 16:16
Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

Originally posted by wbiphoto wbiphoto wrote:


BTW, Opeth's latest 'Heritage' is about as retro as any album in recent memory; right down to the Blackmore riffs ripped from 'Gates of Babylon'.  In fact, large portions of 'Heritage' sound like Rainbow and I consider the latest Opeth effort a tribute to Blackmore(whether Åkerfeldt will own up to it or not is another thing). Of course, there's the 70s Black Sabbath influence oozing out at every turn.

Mikael Akerfeldt has actually admitted (on the Heritage making-of DVD) that some stuff on the album is a tribute of sorts to Ronnie James Dio. But he's never admitted to being progressive by definition, and has also commented that much of his influences for Heritage came from obscure 70s prog bands.


Well, there ya go! My ears weren't lying to me when I heard the obvious Rainbow influence and you've just confirmed it.

Whether or not Åkerfeldt will SAY that his work is "progressive", or that he's trying to be "progressive", is irrelevant. His music is considered such, otherwise it wouldn't be featured on this site or the many others around the net that attach the "progressive" label to Opeth's music. Robert Fripp at one point hated the label "prog" and wanted no part of it, yet, he's one of the most well-known and influential prog artists. Same applies to Åkerfeldt in the realm of death/extreme/tech metal etc.

My objective is not to pick apart Åkerfeldt or to measure Opeth's progressiveness, but to highlight Steve Wilson's EXTREME ARROGANCE. For SW to say that the FK and Transatlantic, and acts like them, will bring on the "death of progressive music" is unconscionable. Specially when he's regurgitating themes and riffs that have existed for decades , and in the case of Opeth's latest, helping other acts do the same.

What SW said is defenseless.


Edited by wbiphoto - September 06 2012 at 16:18
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Points: 1029 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2012 at 19:18
^Wow, someone really doesn't like Steven Wilson. I never thought I'd see the day. 

I prefer his music to TFK, and don't care if it's 'prog' or not. 
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Points: 2 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2012 at 21:28
Cool  Just want to add a few cents in here.  First, full disclosure... I am a musician... ok... I'm a drummer. 

After decades of having unjustifiable bias towards a very small subset of music.  I was, like a large population of the drumming community, a huge fan of Rush and Neal Peart in particular.  I was the first one in any conversation to talk about how much better Peart was than anybody who ever lived.  I was totally sure of my opinion... and anyone who differed from me back then... was... well....  stupid.

Since that time, I have matured musically.  I have expanded my musical horizons.  I have looked and listened in directions that I thought were filled with talentless bums..  Looking back...  as a fan of music... it was ME that was the talentless bum.

Today... I still have great joy in listening to the latest drop by Rush... and I am still blown away by Neal's drumming.  Its great.  There is no doubt about that.  But I have also expanded my horizons to better understand what Ringo did and how it worked... and Charlie Watts... and Mike Portnoy...  and Dave Weckl,   and Steve Smith (both Journey and Vital Information).  I have since become a huge fan of both Buddy Rich, and Nick D Virgillio... and Chad Wackerman... and so on and so forth... 

The bottom line is, that when you limit yourself to a single style or genre of music... You are stunting your growth as a musician.  I look at drummers like Steve Smith, and Vinnie Colaiuta,, and have seen them jump from Rock to Jazz to ... gasp... even country...  and do all incredibly well...

When I see posts like the ones that started this thread... I feel sad...  People are closing off their minds to the incredible variety of music that exists... 

To that end, I play with both a praise and worship team, and a local town band (check us out if you're ever in New Carlisle Indiana).  I actually enjoy playing old standards... and sometimes... even giving them a new feel.    I also like marches, and classical pieces adapted for "quasi" jazz bands like our town band. 

I ask, no, I implore all of you who want to take sides on this one... to get out and listen to everything you can.  As a fan of prog... I know you listen deeper than most... and can appreciate the subtle things the musicians lend to their work.  Learn to appreciate all of it.  Roine is awesome.  Steven is awesome... But for different reasons.  Just because the awesomeness originates from different places, doesn't mean it isn't there.... because as a real musician  ... ok... as a drummer...  I can see how both artists matter... now... and 10 years down the road... 

Peace out everyone...  Not everything in life has to be a contest... Sometimes we can just sit back and enjoy...  And we should.

Tom
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