Steven Wilson Vs. Roine Stolt
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Topic: Steven Wilson Vs. Roine Stolt
Posted By: Mirror Image
Subject: Steven Wilson Vs. Roine Stolt
Date Posted: August 01 2012 at 23:39
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I found this thread via IGN of all places and found it interesting: Roine Stolt replies to Steven Wilson 08. Dec 2005 at 13:50 Here's an excerpt from an interview with SW about prog music, and a reply from one of the people he talks about: "Jeff Nau (Explicitly Intense magazine): As far as progressive rock goes and had gone,what do you feel about what's happening now? Dream Theater is still doing very well, and now there's a new kind of prog rising up with bands like the Mars Volta and even Radiohead - but also with older-sounding groups like the Flower Kings and Transatlantic. What do you think needs to happen for it to survive? Steve Wilson (Porcupine Tree): Okay, I think that answer is very simple: bands like the Mars Volta, Tool, and Radiohead - these bands are the future of progressive music. Bands like the Flower Kings and Transatlantic? The DEATH of progressive music. These are the bands that reinforce every prejudice people have about progressive rock: old-fashioned, pompous, pretentious, hung-up on sci-fi concepts - that for me is rubbish. But there's a new wave of bands that for me are being influenced just as much by hip-hop as they are King Crimson or Godspeed You Black Emperor and bands like us as well, I hope. For me, Transatlantic and the Flower Kings - and I have heard these bands, unfortunately - they're following the blueprint from 1972 so closely; it's completely pointless and redundant. They're never going to better the originals, anyway - why bother? Whatever's going around should be part of their musical vocabulary. I don't particularly dig generic music, whether it's hardcore metal or hip-hop, even down to the prog bands you mentioned. They're following a formula way too closely. For me,being progressive is about taking the word at face value: it a band is going to try to be progressive, they shouldn't be looking at the past - they should be looking at everything that's going on around them now, from hip-hop to trip-hop to death metal to trance. The word 'progressive' is about the FUTURE." Roine Stolt fired backed with this linguistically dubious e-mail: From: Roine Stolt Subject: Steve Wilson on The Flower Kings Date: December 8, 2005 7:34:19 AM EST Rob ,and all... It's correct ,it IS a personal preference and it IS OK to have an opinion . It's just that it comes across as a bit aggressive and who knows ...silly,as neither Flowerkings or Transatlantic have ever been dealing with "sci-fi lyrics" ,at least to my knowledge . But I fear it is more than an opinion , it is a bit of an aggressive statement, meant to hurt or diminish. What he present is his opinion that we are the "death of progressive rock", it is not that nice a statement really. I suppose he's trying to say that bands like us scare the younger audience or the hip crowd and press away ,that he now appearently is eager to please,it is in his "marketing plan" . We all fight for recognition, but a bit of positivism is sometimes better that hanging out what should/could be your friends. In that sense Mike Portnoy is a lovely guy, he is always VERY supportive of groups ,know or unknown,I think I've never heard him say a bad word about anyone ,any band ,even folks he could have reason to dislike. It's that Steven does not seem to care if he piss me off ,or Portnoy or Trewavas off , or whoever have helped him in the past , I think he believes it just add to his credibility ...or coolness??!!! So he don't like Symphonic/prog , fine , but my question would be, is he now into the more metal things because he loves it or because it simply have a bigger audience .' My guess is that Steven's career means a lot to him and he do whatever it takes to make PT a bigger act ,he wanna be in with the cool in-crowd ,the dark tattooed guys. In that sense I can see that any "flowery" old school hippie band like TFK looks like a bad future and something he wanna steer away from rapidly ,not to be connected. Now,there are many prog bands out there (name XXXX) that create a stir within progcircles that I personally feel is exactly what Steven is referring TFK to be , they are scarecrows, they scare people away because they are not close to as inventive ,poetic,expressive or original as Yes,ELP, Floyd or Crimson or simply DULL. Many a hype is written in advertisments or articles in the prog-press or mailinglists all over about those bands but I still find them VERY poor and sometimes unlistenable. BUT I would never go as far as hang them out in an interview (at least I hope I haven't ) . For me it's quite simple ,if a band like Transatlantic sell 65'000 copies of a CD (on an independent label) it simply means that the band IS popular,VERY popular and that MANY people do NOT consider them to be the DEATH of prog ,rather the "new life" or "afterlife" or whatever, but many people did rejoice. it WAS a phenomenon. If Steven Wilson feel the opposite ......we can't do much about that,but he's wrong. Flowerkings is a band that started around the same time as PT and he knows very well of us and know we're both popular and considered along with Spocks, PT to be the new wave of prog . So after all there may be some truth to that he try to kill his competition . I may be wrong but I seem to remember that Steven Wilson's name came up as a possible candidate to mix the second Transatlantic album ,but at the time someone of us had heard that he didn't like us at all , so it's not the first time he make similar statements , this is his firm belief,not something thoughtless he happen to say ...... . Roine Stolt ------------- “Music is enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not enough for music.” - Sergei Rachmaninov |
Replies:
Posted By: Mirror Image
Date Posted: August 01 2012 at 23:39
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Now, those that read this, what do you think about it? Who's right? Who's wrong? ------------- “Music is enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not enough for music.” - Sergei Rachmaninov |
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: August 01 2012 at 23:47
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Steven is better and right. :D ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: Mirror Image
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 00:01
Well, I think Wilson has a lot of good points, but I don't think he's right in the way he went about talking about TFK or Transatlantic. I think he was pretty downright rude about it. I think Wilson is really deeply in awe of Stolt who is just a towering presence in progressive music. Stolt is a musician's musician. Of course, Wilson's music is different and appeals to different people. I personally don't care much about his music. I have three Porcupine Tree albums that do nothing but collect dust. The problem I have with Wilson is that he thinks his music is 'progressive.' The reality is that progressive rock is a style of rock music now that he has even acknowledged in various interviews. It's not a new thing. It's something that has been around since The Beatles were cutting Sgt. Pepper's. The interesting thing is that The Beatles are more relevant today than Wilson and Stolt put together.  Anyway, to me, it's not a question of who's "better" because quite honestly you can't really compare apple and oranges, but it just comes down to personal preference as with anything. Wilson likes The Mars Volta? Great, I don't. Wilson likes Tool? Great, I'm not a fan of metal. Wilson likes Radiohead? Great, I don't. I mean he call these guys the future of music all he wants to, it's simply one man's opinion. Thankfully, there's enough good music to go around for people of all tastes. I am one that happens to lean towards Stolt's style. I like instrumental virtuosity and long improvised solo sections. But, again, this is what I like.------------- “Music is enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not enough for music.” - Sergei Rachmaninov |
Horizons wrote:Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 00:43
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I remember reading his interview in some rock magazine just after Stupid Dream came out and he had very similar views back then (1999). Wilson came across as very arrogant and was putting himself above many bands and clearly didn't mind rubbishing neo prog bands. This bothered me a little as at the time I loved IQ (and still do) and was into the growing 'retro prog' scene which included another of my beloved bands Par Lindh Project. So who does this upstart think he is then? I bought the album (Stupid Dream) to find out and was quite stunned about how bloody ordinary it was. Progressive rock not more like dull plodding rock with self obsessed lyrics that didn't even make sense. File under waste of time. At around the same time I was getting into The Flower Kings having seen them live. They were much more like it. A symphonic prog band with lots of twists and turns in their music and lovely album covers. Colourfull technically well played music.
Skip forward five years and I was getting fed up with The Flower Kings and had just started to listen to Stupid Dream again(something that came about by accident and I won't bore anyone with the story). Deadwing convinced me that I was actually mssing out on something special. Then I got the newly remastered version of Stupid Dream which knocked me sideways.
Nowadays PT are one of my favourite bands while The Flower Kings don't figure anywhere. Roine Stolt has milked the retro prog scene for all its worth and fair enough he's done well. However I am now very much on the same page as Steven Wilson as regards the idead of what is 'progressive'. There is nothing progressive about The Flower Kings (or for that matter Anglagard who I like a lot). Stolt knows his genre and exploits it very well. Wilson also knows the genre very well but has cleverly carved out his own niche.
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Posted By: Gard3n
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 00:45
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In the end, it's just a showcase of opinions, nothing more. They can do the music they want, and everyone will choose what to listen to. I consider myself a fan of SW, but I think he's been a jerk here. Also I tend more to Steven musical taste. Another thing that must be said here is that the "new classic style" prog bands don't have a chance against the classics. Sorry, but what they do has been done ten thousand times better in the past.
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 01:03
Definition of:  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm 
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Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 01:17
It was a short post so it seems that way!  I ensure everyone that i did read everything k - didn't feel like making an unimportant, pointless post as long as the argument. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 01:17
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Roine was definitely being the nicer more sensible guy, though SW was voicing many opinions which I tend to agree with. I feel that Roine came out the better man in this discussion, also considering I won't count PT as something to "progressive" or anything like that. ------------- There be dragons |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 01:18
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The problem is, Porcupine Tree is (was) no more progressive than The Flower Kings were (are), so all of SWilson's comments are null and void,
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 01:21
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He's not looking to be labeled as prog or progressive. He's has voiced this before. He just dislikes that bands, specifically TFK here, seems to replicate or praise that "Classic Age" too much so it comes through their music too much. Something i agree with. Whatever though. Opinions are like a****les - everyone has one and they all stink. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 01:24
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If you have the time and energy to want to rant about bands you don't care for, you must be craving attention, or have no life.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 01:29
Are you referring to me? Or to anyone that does that? I hope you don't think i'm ranting.  I just don't want to look like i have annoyingly blind faith. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 01:30
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No I was talking about Steven Wilson. I like you Austin.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 01:33
 Thanks Mike. :')! I think you're a neat guy too.  ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: napoca
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 01:34
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I don't think it is relevant what SW has to
say about progressive music (actually I am not sure he is using progressive
rock term), as long as he declare that only bands like his or the others he
mentioned (Mars Volta, Radiohead and Tool) are moving in the "right"
direction. What direction is right in "progressive music"? The one
that brings more audience and get radio airplay by incorporating elements of
more commercial genres? Probably SW forgot about his “The Sky Moves Sideways
Phase One” as being “old fashioned, pretentious, completely pointless and redundant”
or maybe he is ashamed now by his source of inspiration. For me that track is
one of the best PT songs although I enjoy others from later albums where he steered
away from that style. Unfortunately, the ability to record a 70 min album that CD era is offering brought a lot of over pretentious, pompous and ultimately too long albums, which both FK and Transatlantic failed to avoid - and in this regard SW is right. But if I had to choose between a “modern” sound album of progressive music which try to please the sheep and an old fashioned progressive rock influenced one, I would go with the second one. A matter of tastes. |
Posted By: napoca
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 01:37
| Sorry for the font size, it was a copy paste from Word and didn't pay atention to it. |
Posted By: Gard3n
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 02:46
| This will end in another pointless and lengthy discussion of what is and what isn't progressive. |
Posted By: ScorchedFirth
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 04:31
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Steven Wilson was kinda right. A good point, really badly (bit nastily even) made.
------------- breathing, eating, defecating, screwing, drinking, spewing, sleeping... 
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Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 05:29
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I found Steven Wilson's last album (the solo one) to be quite boring, and while I have always had a special place in my heart for Porcupine Tree, I like Wilson less after reading this - that was quite pompous and pretentious, especially considering how grey, lifeless and washed out his solo album and Storm Corrosion were, and even more so when compared to the bright and colorful album that is the Flower Kings' latest album. Steven Wilson is a (animal whose other name is a synonym of donkey). In my personal opinion.
------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List 
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 05:46
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I have totally lost all respect for Steve Wilson. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 05:53
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The benefits of having been on here so long.... I remember when this interview was actually done, it made quite the stire here at the time as well (I expect that thread is long gone by now though). One thing people seem to have forgotten is that until around the time of Fear of a Blank Planet, Wilson hated the term Progressive Rock and being associated with it, it was only in the latter part of the 2000's when the term became much more widely applied to a wide variaty of bands that he came to accept being labeled as such. This interview reflects that. Personally I find the majority of music from both Wilson and Stolt to be extremely boring, so I can consider myself neutral in this. I agree with some of Wilsons point, if only in part, but he still comes across as being an arrogant little so and so. Mind you, at first Stolt only just stops short of calling Wilson a sheep so as bad as each other I think. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 06:26
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Well, Then, way back in the mists of time - about 1985ish - Roj (who was a contact for S.Wilsons current band - I can't remenber what they were called) - and myself - went to stay @ S. Wilsons Parents house in Hemel Hempstead... He played us a bit of Rush - he was REALLY into the seventies prog bands then - Genesis, Yes - but mainly Floyd & Rush...We went to the pub with his keyboard player.....He dreamed of becoming a big star (yes and owning a Jaguar).....That much was certain....A lot of his music is REALLY floydesque (The Sky moves sideways).
I haven't listened a lot to his PT stuff - my youngest son plays a bit and I really like some of it......But I feel saddened at this attack that seems to echo the 1976/77 - "HIP" journo's attack on prog as they grooved to New Wave (Trash really IMO) - Maybe he should produce for lady ga-ga or summat...Maybe (although he's an accomplished guitarist himself) he's not in the same class as Roine (causes Jealousy)......no comparison... Aye and Mars Volta - just not my cup of tea - the more avant-garde the more inverted-snobbery applies I feel......S.W will be mentioning Wizards Hats next if he's not careful................  ------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 06:35
I tends to agree with this. .........................bands like the Mars Volta, Tool, and Radiohead - these bands are the future of progressive music.............................................................................. But he should only mention what he thinks is great, what he dosent like, he would do better keep it to him self. ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: appudds
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 06:36
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I personally disagree about the opinions of Steven Wilson. There are a lot of bands these days who want to recapture the mood of the past which is lost. Even though they arent that close to it, they are trying something atleast. The least thing Steven Wilson can do is recognise their talent. If I am not wrong, I heard the song called "The Sky Moves Sideways" and till date, its the worst progressive rock song I have ever heard (my personal opinion). I dont know how Steven sees those songs as prog but TFK and Transatlantic as not prog. I am sure Steven should look at his old songs and think twice about criticizing someone. And If he doesnt want bands to act "old school", why did he help mix the Heritage album for Opeth? And if he feels symphonic prog is the "death" of progressive music, why try Storm Corrosion? I have a huge respect for Steven and I am heavily disappointed that he has come out to openly criticize fellow progressive musicians who are stalwarts. |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 06:54
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Would be nice with a link to the interview. Another thing, keep in mind this was 7 years ago. ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: Earthmover
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 07:11
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God, Roine could use some English courses. -------------  |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 07:21
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I agree with some of what Wilson says, but he is foolish, and I expect somewhat egotistical to express his views in the way he did.
The Flower Kings and Transatlantic are clearly not the 'future' of prog. Was it ever their intention to be? I'm sure seasoned musicians like them, know the business well enough to know, that they are not about to start selling albums by the lorry load, in this day and age. They do what they do and they do it well. I don't listen to them. They do very little for me, but that's hardly the point. To be frank I've heard all I want to hear of Porcupine Tree, for now, too. Boring music. The Incident was wholly unremarkable. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: JS19
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 07:33
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While I agree with both sides of the argument to some extent, Steven Wilson is being a bit of a d*** here. While the bands he mentioned might not be churning out any 'classic' albums anytime soon, or pushing any boundaries, they have the right to make whatever music they want. I happen to think some of it is really good, and I know other people do too. There's a different kind of way of thinking about music in PT and TMV and that kind of band, they want to make things people haven't heard before. The Flower Kings just want to make the music they love, and that happens to be classic prog rock. Also, Roine comes of this sounding like such a nicer person that Steven (even though both are usually nice guys), so I think it's clear who wins. Hopefully Steven'll retract his statement and try and make amends otherwise he's going to lose a lot of fans. ------------- 
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Posted By: Roland113
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 08:14
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^ being as this was in 2005 I don't see a retraction coming soon. I'd love to hear his take on that interview now to see if he's matured at all. Either way, you don't trash other bands in interviews, I think the term is professional courtesy. |
Posted By: kole
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 09:08
This. Though if I understand it correctly, he was asked specifically about TFK and Transatlantic |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 11:17
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Steven Wilson is rather close to an imbecile when he opens his mouth. When he shuts up and plays his little simple instruments he fares way better. Anyway, if what he's being doing recently is supposed to be the real standard for real "progressive" rock, count me out of that stupid train. Porcupine Tree is rather always good (except the last album) but Wilson's multiple projects in recent years all make me yawn and get sleepy. And that's beside the point. He just showed he's a child. He looks like a child, and acts like a child. I've always said: that one person is extremely good at something doesn't mean they are extremely good at giving opinions, or even that they're intelligent. ------------- 
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 11:36
Agreed. I can understand Robert Fripp making that kind of statement, but Wilson isn't exactly the epitome of progressive-ness. Hey, Steven, truly progressive acts don't even care whether the public calls them prog rock or whatever. I agree to a large extent about the points Wilson made about Flower Kings but he so isn't the right person to say that in such scathing terms in an interview. |
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 11:53
------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 12:08
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If this happened in 2005, I think it's pretty much water under the bridge by now. I think both parties came off a bit childishly. Take Roine Stolt and Steven Wilson, and drop them in a discussion room of hard core "GLEE" fans. Let them hear people argue at length over whether Finn and Rachel's marriage will be successful, or whether Puck is really a good guy or just a manipulative punk, the choice of songs in the "Madonna" episode, and whether or not Curt is a fair portrayal of a gay student. After a couple of hours of this, Roine and Steve will understand that they're not so far apart after all. They're both into progressive rock to the GLEE fan.
------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 13:16
Sounds like your trying to turn them into a pair of mass murderers to me, either that or they'll create a suicide pact.  ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 13:26
Exactly. 7 years ago I was a black man from Uganda into Sperm whale fishing and Burt Bacharach. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 14:19
 Yeah.Still, the point of my ridiculous example is that we - prog-metal fans, new fans, old fans, RIO fans, Volta fans, Flower King fans, etc. - are not as ideologically different as we sometimes think we are. ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: Wanorak
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 14:41
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Point to Roine!! The negativity expressed by Steven Wilson was totally unnecessary!! What's great about prog now is that all the diverse acts can exist at the same time, and they all should support each other!! ------------- A GREAT YEAR FOR PROG!!! |
Posted By: Anthony H.
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 14:48
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Wow. f**k Steven Wilson. I've lost an enormous amount of respect for him after reading that. Regardless of whether or not you agree with him, you can't deny that that was nasty, pompous, and downright sh*tty. -------------  |
Posted By: Roland113
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 15:03
LOL,
well played. |
Posted By: rdtprog
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 15:10
| Two on my favorites band bashing each other! Ronnie being more polite. I think Steven went too far with the words he used. I don't see a big difference in a band that make progressive music with a new metal influence, and another that make progressive music with a old symphonic influence. As long as it's progressive music, new or retro, i don't care. |
Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 15:15
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I remember when this came out and i was put off by Wilson's attitude but at the same time i was and still am a huge fan. As others have mentioned this was a long time ago and back then Wilson didn't have a lot of good things to say about progressive rock period. He always distanced himself from it while today he champions it. So i'm happy Wilson came around and i think he has matured some too.
I honestly think that the way The Flower Kings promoted a positive message and brought light into music pissed Wilson off back then as he was into the darker, melancholic style. ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: Anthony H.
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 15:21
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Wilson is the emo kid of prog. ------------- |
Posted By: Roland113
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 15:47
As opposed to now?
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Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 15:54
Okay some things with Wilson will never change  I don't see him buying IQ or Flower Kings albums ever. He's also stated he would never play or sing on an Ayreon album either. ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: colorofmoney91
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 16:15
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I agree mostly with SW, even if he is a total ass. Though I'm not a fan of TFK, Roine gets points in my book for being mature. As for both of them, meh. ------------- http://hanashukketsu.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - Hanashukketsu |
Posted By: zumacraig
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 16:20
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meh is right. the internet is such a wasteland. we're sitting here arguing about a 7 year old interview! :-) anyway, wilson's comments are utterly naive. one can't dictate how another should do their art. ironically, steven wilson is all retro 90s alternative and not progressive. roine, on the other hand, has some thin skin. who gives a sh*t what steven wilson says...he's roine stolt. of course,all of this means nothing. let's talk about something really important, like Chik-Fil-A! ------------- Stardust we are. -Roine Stolt |
Posted By: Anthony H.
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 16:22
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Posted By: Master of Time
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 17:13
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Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 18:05
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I didn't look at this thread until now because I thought it was another poll. ------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: questionsneverknown
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 19:08
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I have to say that I'm a little surprised by the turn of the discussion on this. I read the initial Wilson/Stolt exchange this morning and then just came back to read all the comments, and then had to go back and read the initial exchange again. Sorry to go against the tide here but I don't think that Wilson is actually being that mean. The interviewer asked him what he thought about current directions in progressive music and which ones he'd like to see be pursued further. He then offered his opinion. He spoke of bands that he thought moved the genre forward and others that he thought didn't, and he gave aesthetic reasons for why he thought this. That seems completely reasonable. It's what artists in most fields do--I like this direction, I don't like this one; I'd prefer to more of this and it's what I'm trying to do; I could do without more of that; it's not what I'm into and I don't think it's healthy for the field. Again, that seems reasonable to me. Frankly I find it a bit hard to follow Stolt's argument, but that's probably simply down to a language issue--so, fair enough. But I do find it strange that he hears ad hominem attacks in Wilson's statement, like when he says, essentially, but Mike Portnoy's a really nice guy. I don't know that that was ever part of the issue. I don't think Wilson said anything mean about these other artists as people, he simply expressed (strongly) his likes and dislikes for different kinds of music. We can agree or disagree with Wilson, but I like that he gave some aesthetic reasons for his tastes and opinions. ------------- The damage that we do is just so powerfully strong we call it love The damage that we do just goes on and on and on but not long enough. --Robyn Hitchcock |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 19:47
| As many have stated here, I do agree with Wilson's opinion about the kind of bands that move the genre forward. And also about the bands that don't move it forward. And if he doesn't like those bands, it's perfect, and he can say so without any recrimination from anyone. But implying that it is wrong what Stolt is doing with music, and that said music is bad music, that's what I think was wrong... he might have been a bit more diplomatic. That's always the better. I actually like what I have heard from both men, as long as the music is good, I don't care if it's retro or avant or whatever. I guess that if the musician is good, symphonic prog still has a lot to offer (I really love The Whirlwind as much as the best albums from the 70's, for example), if the musician is bad, avant music just won't be good. |
Posted By: lmaorofllollmao
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 20:13
haha, i was thinking the same exact thing. ------------- EATTTT YOUURRR BEEEEEETTTSSSSS!!!!! 
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Posted By: 10mb
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 20:18
| I really have a hard time understanding the why of this kind of thing. Wilson is extremely talented, why should he feel the need to trash anybody? Artistic insecurity? I guess an artist is only as good as the next idea he has? I like music that is interesting enough to return to, over and over again. Both of these guys have created music that have done this for me- and both have created stuff that I don't listen to all that often. I don't like PROGRESSIVE MUSIC. I like music that is most easily described as Progressive. There is a difference and I am ever so thankful there continues to be music being made that I love, regardless of the genre, tag, or label associated with it. |
Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 20:28
Any interviews i've read with him have been nothing but intelligent and thoughtful. Whether it's about progressive music in general or his work in the studio re-mixing King Crimson, ELP or Jethro Tull he always has my full attention.
The fact most of his music makes you yawn and sleepy is simply your tastes just like classical music bores the hell out of me, no ones right or wrong it's just opinions and tastes my friend. ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 20:51
I think calling their music rubbish and labelling them the death of prog rock, as reinforcing old prejudices about prog rock is out of line. As Stolt infers, it is a bit like suggesting that they rob the prog community of fans. Wilson is entitled to say he finds them boring and regressive. I remember Wetton made similar observations about IQ and neo prog generally in an elaborate interview in the 90s (and there are people who would find even that rude, not that I do), but Wilson went beyond that. I have found even in other interviews that Wilson is somewhat touchy about how prog rock is perceived, why he can never be a multi millionaire as long as he makes prog rock and such and such. He could let go a bit. I agree that Stolt seems to have over-reacted there, but he probably took it personally with regard to "death of prog rock". Prog rock musicians feel persecuted so Wilson calling them the death of prog rock is probably the last thing they want to hear.
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 20:54
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I'm sorry I have not read the thread, but I read the excerpt from the interview. I agree with Stolt, but not for the reasons he mentions. When I think of "progressive music," I think of music that progresses in and of itself: That is to say, a piece of music that is adventurous or dynamic, as opposed to pure pop which has a verse and a chorus. Progressive music for me is that which explores rather than just entertains. The definition Wilson gives that progressive artists must in some way "progress" (i.e., find something new and venture into new styles) has always been silly to me. Some bands do very well with that (King Crimson, er Bob Fripp, made a career out of it, but he is the exception here, and a likely one since KC was hardly ever the same band at all). Imagine if Yes had, after Fragile, took what they had stylistically as a band and made disco (an emergent genre at the time): Would that have been considered progressive rock? Well, many bands went toward popular music (and disco!) and progressive rock fans have regarded many of those albums as rubbish. What progressive rock fans wanted was more of what they had fallen in love with. Hence the rise of "Neo-Prog" bands like Marillion and IQ. They were doing in the 1980s what Yes and Genesis ceased to do. So no, Steve. I don't want my prog to sound like Nickelback, thank you very much. I want bands to make the music they want to make, and I will continue to be the judge and jury with respect to their product. Derivative trumps boring anyway, I say. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 21:02
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^ I agree completely with you Rob and i think it's a shame that people take the word "progressive" to mean the music has to explore new territories(good luck with that anyway). Progressive music is as you say music that isn't necessarily verse, chorus, verse, chorus etc but music that explores. I've even heard WIlson describe it this way. When you listen to Blues whether from 1960 or 1980 it's still Blues. It's a style of music just like Progressive Rock is a style. The word isn't a verb. ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: Mirror Image
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 21:19
This is essentially what I said in my post back on page...uh....one! ------------- “Music is enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not enough for music.” - Sergei Rachmaninov |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 21:25
Except, contemporary music need not be Nickelback, it could be Mars Volta or Tool, to reiterate Wilson's examples or Bjork, Massive Attack, Mastodon among many others. However, I highly doubt that exposure to new music is the only way a musician makes something fresh or daring.
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 21:37
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I have said many times that I consider The Mars Volta to be one of the most innovative bands of the 21st century. They are far more interesting (and consistent!) than those who are just trying to be different. No matter what TMV as done since their inception, one can always tell he is listening to TMV, and not just because of Cedric's voice! ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Mirror Image
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 22:08
TMV remind me of a bunch of kids hyped up on Red Bull. To me, their music lacks focus and it just sounds like one chaotic mess. I can barely listen to them and I'm thankful I never have blown my hard earned money on one of their albums. There are some bands that you just have to see what the hype is about. Thankfully, I was inquisitive enough to check them out on YouTube.
------------- “Music is enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not enough for music.” - Sergei Rachmaninov |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 22:13
Yes, part of what I said was based on my tastes. That doesn't make my very last sentence wrong. It applies perfectly to this case and to the persona of Steven Wilson. -------------
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Posted By: Mirror Image
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 22:18
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Getting back to the Wilson/Stolt topic, the more I read Wilson's comments, the angrier I get. I think it showed what a class act he is by bashing other musicians who he felt didn't follow his little narrow idea of what progressive music should be. As I said, he made some valid points, but he didn't need to act the way he did. It's one thing to give your opinion, but it's a completely different animal altogether to bash other musicians. What did Stolt do to him? What did Wilson possibly have to gain from degrading The Flower Kings or Transatlantic? He could have simply said he didn't care for their music, but the interviewer didn't ask him to go into great detail about it. It was a simple yes or no question that Wilson took to mean it was time to flaunt his apparent massive ego. ------------- “Music is enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not enough for music.” - Sergei Rachmaninov |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 22:23
I just want to mention that I was one who "checked them out" online numerous times and did not like them. It was not until I bought two of their albums (yes two- the store gave a freebie every ten you bought) that I began to like them. I got Frances the Mute and Amputechture right before a week long vacation. I am now a fan. By the way, if you want to approach them, please try Octahedron. It is a much mellower album. Check it out!  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 22:23
How about this? And this? (the first 1:25 or so is a barely audible ambient drone opening; you can skip it if you want). ------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 22:24
Ninja'd ya! 
------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 22:26
No, I ninja'd ya, because I suggested it in a different thread . ------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 22:27
Quite spot on! And please recall that every other project that SW was/is in fails to get as much attention as PT, except for the stuff released under his name and Storm Corrosion, but those are only three bands out of the dozens he had/has. -------------   
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Posted By: Mirror Image
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 22:33
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Sorry guys, I just don't like The Mars Volta. I definitely don't like the vocalist. He just doesn't jive well with me. I also like more instrumental virtuosity and interplay between the musicians. ------------- “Music is enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not enough for music.” - Sergei Rachmaninov |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 22:37
Their albums are hit or miss for me as well. Wile I don't like their most "successful" (mostly boring for me) albums, I like their "bad" albums a lot. Cedric does have a terrible vocal tone, being surpassed only by LaBrie, and the way he chooses to sing only makes everything worse. All in all, it's a reasonably good band, but I never understood why people like it to the point of LOVING it at all. -------------
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Posted By: Mirror Image
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 22:41
The band is a just a miss for me and I'm glad I didn't waste a whole lot of time on them. I just like the Symphonic Prog stuff more, but, again, this is just my preference. ------------- “Music is enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not enough for music.” - Sergei Rachmaninov |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 23:02
I don't have any problem with that. -------------
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Posted By: Anthony H.
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 23:15
You need to stop saying ridiculous things about TMV. You don't have to like them, but your criticisms of them are absurd. It would be like me saying, "I hate DT. Just a bunch of guys who play a 16/8 time signature for 38 minutes and think it's cool." Or, "I hate Univers Zero. It's just a bunch of people farting into bassoons." It's stupid, and all it does is piss people off. ------------- |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 23:18
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lol didn't see this thread before I, to some degree, agree with Stephen Wilson, but only because the other school of bands mentioned here bores me to tears. Not that I like PT much either... I won't judge Wilson for being an a****le because he still falls short of Dave Mustaine, who I happen to quite like.
also dis |
Posted By: Anthony H.
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 23:21
If Dave is your standard for sh*ttiness, then everyone is a saint. ------------- |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 23:22
Only if they play guitar k |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 23:23
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I don't know if Dave Mustaine sings as much as he snarls.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: Mirror Image
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 23:38
I'm just joking around so no need to take it all so personally. I do, however, stand by criticism that their music lacks focus. It's okay to like something that you don't right? I was just making sure before I go and give another one of those absurd opinions of mine. Just relax man. Everything will be well. The world didn't end because I don't like The Mars Volta. ------------- “Music is enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not enough for music.” - Sergei Rachmaninov |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 23:38
Here in Brazil he is known by some as Quake Mustaine, because people say he sounds like a duck quacking. Also, he quacks well enough.
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 23:51
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ducks are pretty metul dvck |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: August 02 2012 at 23:55
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why not QVACK? -------------
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: August 03 2012 at 01:47
very well put but the problem that many have is that modern neo or symph prog is just copying something that has already been done rather than trying to forge a new way or approach. ELP ,Yes and Genesis never copied other bands.
You comment about Yes not changing style after Fragile and so invalidating themselves as 'progressive rock'. Yes created the syle and they owned it so why should they then change? Flower Kings and nowadays Glass Hammer seem to be trying just to replicate it. Pointless unless they are going to improve it and that is simply not going to happen.Yes on the other hand looked to improve what they were doing up to Relayer at least. After that I think some criticism is deserved. They were not untouchable!
You also state that prog rock fans in the eighties were just looking for more of the same. Not sure about that although nostalgia will of course play a part in any appreciation of music whatever the style. WIthout that Roine could safely give up!
The eighties was a problematic decade however. The rise of MTV and bands that were really a front for some prodcuer left a dearth of interesing music which perhaps allowed the likes of Marillion and IQ to establish themselves. But this was of course partly because they could go out and perform the music live unlike many eighties pop groups and that was also important.
In terms of 'proggessiveness' there were artists like Kate Bush,Peter Gabriel and few others that showed the way forward and if you looked hard enough there was some modern progressive 'rock' music. I would say Propaganda (German band produced by Trevor Horn) made the album of the decade A Secret Wish. It had plenty of progressiveness even by the definition you use but was distinctly modern in approach. It was possible to do this and always has been.
I do like some retro prog (Glass Hammer pre 'If',Anglagard and Par Lindh Project but not much else) and I have no problem with Wilson not liking those bands and stating so. If he wants to big up his own music then fine.Wilson has found a brand of modern rock that sounds sophisticated and deals with emotions and feelings. I like this and it makes my collection and listening experience a bit more rounded I believe so I applaud him.
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Posted By: rdtprog
Date Posted: August 03 2012 at 03:31
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It's funny that Steven Wilson is remixing the ELP catalogue, a band that reinforce every prejudice people have about progressive rock: old-fashioned, pompous,pretentious. Is Elp was not a band that was going to the past with his take on old classic songs? He would say that he has nothing wrong to say about the best 70's band, but only for those who are influenced by them. Is ELP better than Mussorgsky? Isn't that redundant and pointless? |
Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: August 03 2012 at 05:33
This. ------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List
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Posted By: The-Winkler
Date Posted: August 03 2012 at 05:56
| I find it rather sad that Steven Wilson would name and shame bands like that in an interview, its one thing to voice an opinion on a genre/sub genre its another thing to label a band the DEATH of Progressive music. I'm a huge fan of Steven Wilson, I've met the man and found him very courteous and generous with his time, so these comments surprise me. I've read he doesn't like the Prog tag, thats fine, I get where he's coming from, bands should be progressive and their is some truth in the fact TFK and Transatlantic are more Proggy than Progressive, they do wallow to some extent in the music of the 70's, but I like their take on it, so I can only think something has been lost in translation so to speak within the interview or at least I hope thats the case. I find it hard to believe that Steven Wilson who has been working with nearly all the big names in Prog would so categorically distance himself from the likes of TFK etc...I find it all very contradictory, I met him only 3 weeks ago in London, he was in the bar at Celebr8 Prog Festival, watching band like IQ, Pallas and The Tangent, doesn't strike me as a guy who hates the music... |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: August 03 2012 at 06:31
I don't have time to respond to the whole post, but I have to address this before I go. ELP, Yes, and Genesis were all to one degree or another "copying" other bands. I know when I started I would have been happy to sound like the Beatles or Joe Tex or whoever. You want to sound like most bands, you want to sound like their records and that's how you learn your chops. - Jon Anderson ELP essentially sprang from an earlier band called The Nice and Emerson's desire to do renditions of classical pieces (that's not exactly original, is it?). Genesis began as pretty much a pop band. So no, Yes did not "create" a style. TFK and GH won't "improve" a style because stuffy codgers would never allow them to. No musical style exists in the background. All musicians owe a debt to other musicians. This is inescapable. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: PabstRibbon
Date Posted: August 03 2012 at 07:45
| I think it's funny to know what SW think about bands that got the 70's feeling when the man himself released Grace for Drowning, an album that feels like a King Crimson album. SW may be an amazing producer and a good composer but I think that he is very pretentious and over-the-top guy |
Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: August 03 2012 at 09:18
Well again i've never seen a pompous interview with Wilson except the one this thread is based on and i've read most(i think). If you can give me links i'd appreciate it. Otherwise it's just sour grapes. It seems like when a band or person becomes successful in Prog they become a target. I don't get it especially when Wilson and the more successful Dream Theater do nothing but promote progressive music. Dream Theater have been the whipping boys on this site since i joined and so i thought you would be sensitive to that T. ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: August 03 2012 at 09:41
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I think you hit the nail on the head John. Prog fans are more than anything, people who reside outside of the popular music spheres, and even if most of us whine about not having anybody to share our musical tastes with, at least in real life, - I think we revel in the mystical and selfserving underdog status that naturally comes with the territory. Then we get to know the prog circles better and better, and suddenly this underdog thing barks again and we start digging even deeper for something obscure and unknown. Why? It's simply cool to listen to music nobody else does. Well that is part of the equation I think. The underdog attitude still pushes us forward to find new under the radar music, and when you finally get there, bands like PT and DT suddenly feel enormous - especially due to the constant free advertising they get from people who just happened to stumble over one of their albums and then got to know the word prog. We are constantly reminded of these big bands, and even if they are far from being the huge billionaire acts some of us see them as, they still stand for something that is corporate and big business like. So it becomes 'cool' to hate on these bands - even if they still carry the torch of our much beloved music and continue to draw people in to progressive waters, where they probably at some point will get to know about all those other bands that deserve much more recognition, because they are more underground...? Bollocks!
Oh and this is coming from a guy who revels in the obscure and out there... ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Mirror Image
Date Posted: August 03 2012 at 09:55
Some valid points, but I certainly don't relate to your comment about the whole 'underdog status' thing. I could careless if one of the bands I like are well-known or not known at all. I've ALWAYS listened to music that all my friends never heard of because I was exposed to this music when I was a kid. What I thought was part of the norm was actually not, so when I would talk about Genesis or King Crimson with my friends they would just give me blank stares. People listen to music they like regardless of it's popularity. If people listened to music because it was the 'underdog' thing to do then I think they would be listening for the wrong reasons. It all starts with exposure. From there, people can follow their heart's desire or they can just simply listen to music that they truly deep down inside of them don't care anything about.
------------- “Music is enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not enough for music.” - Sergei Rachmaninov |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: August 03 2012 at 09:59
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Maybe I expressed myself clumsily, but I don't necessarily think people listen to music because of its underdog status, - like I said it was only part of the equation, but I do think they form opinions about music due to it. Most of the times, the big bands feel the result of this. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: August 03 2012 at 10:15
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^ Well said David. I see the word Prog quite often in the Toronto Sun newspaper because the reviewer there uses it when he reviews Rush, Tool, Dream Theater, Mastadon, Muse etc. And yes these are gateway bands to Prog, in fact Fates Warning was my gateway into Prog. ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: August 03 2012 at 10:19
Well, there's also the fact that because they are more well known they are more likely to come across large numbers of people that wont like them, which is not going to be such a problem for Cheer-Accident and others. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: August 03 2012 at 11:10
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^ That is, of course, also another factor ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: shomanca
Date Posted: August 03 2012 at 11:13
How is your Swedish, by the way...?
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Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: August 03 2012 at 13:18
I actually think you are spot on here - at least I've noticed many people seem to hate on the more well known Prog acts and when you look at some of the other music they have given 5 stars to, the only logical explanation is that they don't like these artists because they've been successful. I myself has always loved Prog simply because I love the music, and I've always hoped that the bands I loved WOULD make it big someday. I want them to be successful, and I want more people to know about them. ------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List
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Posted By: mono
Date Posted: August 03 2012 at 13:27
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If Steven Wilson were a music critic, I would agree with him to a certain extent (and it is quite common to see music critics become "agressive" about old-fashioned bands). In his case, he is being a bit of a douchebag, as his work is far from being completey "useful" for the future of progressive music. He has made so many poppish songs that could have been written ten to twenty years before, that we cannot have this attitude towards TA, TFK or Neal Morse. I personnly can't listen to Transatlantic or Morse anymore, they bore the hell out of me, and listen to PT much more often. But that's my taste! These guys are not the death of progressive rock, they are a branch that did not evolve so much in sound and creativity compared to the seventies (IMO, and left apart the tech advances that lead to have a "cleaner" sound), but what's wrong with that?? It's just a pause in time, and noone can say that being completely new is a must-rule. I personnally like that in a band (surprise, new elements, new sounds, etc...), but I can bvery well understand why (very intellegent and cultured) people listen to TFK, Neal Morse or Transatlantic! Music doesn't always have to be about who's the next icon of the genre. I think that I tend to look for originality mainly beacuse I am a musician (which I think is at the same time a curse and a blessing for music-listenning, other topic...) So please come down from your cardboard pedestal M. Wilson and just keep making your music as you like to. Let others enjoy what they like. ------------- https://soundcloud.com/why-music Prog trio, from ambiant to violence https://soundcloud.com/m0n0-film Film music and production projects https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: August 03 2012 at 14:57
Yes started off wanting to be the Beach Boys but 'evolved' or 'changed' or whatever word is best suited. Roine Stolt and the like don't seem that interested in change or evolution
Genesis began as a pop band. Your point is what?
Yes created something very distinct it seems to me as near as you can be to nailing down 'progressive rock' as a style. You claim they didn't create a style but don't offer any reason to support that.
''All musicians owe a debt to other musicians'' just means that we all owe a debt to what comes before.So its okay to copy then and not be inspired?
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