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Topic: The Velvet Underground Posted: July 10 2012 at 12:53
I searched but couldn't find any thread about the Velvet Underground. Is there a reason they haven't been included in the past under proto-prog or prog-related? They're just as "art rock" as David Bowie and definitely more experimental.
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Posted: July 10 2012 at 13:53
I'd say yes to proto prog, their long improv jams were vital to the progression of progressive rock and they really were very experimental and influential.
Their name has been mentioned quite often in relation to proto-prog, by my humble person as well. I think their first three albums are really progressive (especially the first in 1966's context).
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Posted: July 10 2012 at 14:40
Hate to say it, but I doubt they'll be included anytime soon. The Velvet Underground & Nico is probably the most prog based of their works, but after that, those characteristics drop considerably. White Light/White Heat could be considered prog if looked through the lens of works like The Piper At The Gates Of Dawn (Pink Floyd), The Soft Machine (The Soft Machine), and Trout Mask Replica (Captain Beefheart), but that's pushing it and the last two albums (The Velvet Underground and Loaded) sound more like something from an indie band a la The Modern Lovers.
Admittedly, it is possible to list the Velvet Underground as progressive rock, but by including them, it risks opening the floodgates for other acts like The Red Krayola or Pere Ubu, who have even less to do with what most associate with prog.
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I think they would make for a fine inclusion actually. Allright I am a huge fan, but the way The Velvets approached music - their ability to weave strange instrumentation into the tunes(Nobody had ever used a viola like that - before Venus in Furs!!) - the whole notion of connecting music with art and a 'Factory* of imaginative skills seeking to highlight the best and most interesting of different subcultures - all of that is greatly infused in the music. Proto prog is a pretty good description - not only philosophically but also musically, as they clearly paved the way for a large number of bands already featured on this site.
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
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Posted: July 10 2012 at 14:54
KingCrInuYasha wrote:
Hate to say it, but I doubt they'll be included anytime soon. The Velvet Underground & Nico is probably the most prog based of their works, but after that, those characteristics drop considerably. White Light/White Heat could be considered prog if looked through the lens of works like The Piper At The Gates Of Dawn (Pink Floyd), The Soft Machine (The Soft Machine), and Trout Mask Replica (Captain Beefheart), but that's pushing it and the last two albums (The Velvet Underground and Loaded) sound more like something from an indie band a la The Modern Lovers.
Admittedly, it is possible to list the Velvet Underground as progressive rock, but by including them, it risks opening the floodgates for other acts like The Red Krayola or Pere Ubu, who have even less to do with what most associate with prog.
The closest they got to prog was actually White Light / White Heat and we shouldn't worry about opening the floodgates for other acts that clearly aren't as influential as the Velvet Underground was.
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Posted: July 10 2012 at 14:55
Guldbamsen wrote:
I think they would make for a fine inclusion actually. Allright I am a huge fan, but the way The Velvets approached music - their ability to weave strange instrumentation into the tunes(Nobody had ever used a viola like that - before Venus in Furs!!) - the whole notion of connecting music with art and a 'Factory* of imaginative skills seeking to highlight the best and most interesting of different subcultures - all of that is greatly infused in the music. Proto prog is a pretty good description - not only philosophically but also musically, as they clearly paved the way for a large number of bands already featured on this site.
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Posted: July 10 2012 at 15:02
Well, I'm against their inclusion. Great band? Yes. Innovative as hell? Yes. Massively influential? Again, yes. But they are not prog, they are closer to punk.
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Posted: July 10 2012 at 15:18
thellama73 wrote:
Well, I'm against their inclusion. Great band? Yes. Innovative as hell? Yes. Massively influential? Again, yes. But they are not prog, they are closer to punk.
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Posted: July 10 2012 at 21:57
The Truth wrote:
The closest they got to prog was actually White Light / White Heat and we shouldn't worry about opening the floodgates for other acts that clearly aren't as influential as the Velvet Underground was.
Proto-prog would be an excellent fit.
You got me with the latter, but the former I have to disagree with just a bit. With VU & Nico, about half that album is proggish - specifically, "Venus In Furs", "Heroin", "All Tomorrow Parties", "The Black Angel's Death Song" and "European Son".
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Posted: July 10 2012 at 22:20
The Truth wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
Well, I'm against their inclusion. Great band? Yes. Innovative as hell? Yes. Massively influential? Again, yes. But they are not prog, they are closer to punk.
That's why proto-prog is a better fit.
I just don't think that everything experimental is automatically related to prog, proto or otherwise.
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Posted: July 11 2012 at 00:47
KingCrInuYasha wrote:
The Truth wrote:
The closest they got to prog was actually White Light / White Heat and we shouldn't worry about opening the floodgates for other acts that clearly aren't as influential as the Velvet Underground was.
Proto-prog would be an excellent fit.
You got me with the latter, but the former I have to disagree with just a bit. With VU & Nico, about half that album is proggish - specifically, "Venus In Furs", "Heroin", "All Tomorrow Parties", "The Black Angel's Death Song" and "European Son".
Apart from the title track and possibly "Lady Godiva's Operation" isn't all of White Light / White Heat pretty dang progressive?
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Posted: July 11 2012 at 00:48
thellama73 wrote:
The Truth wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
Well, I'm against their inclusion. Great band? Yes. Innovative as hell? Yes. Massively influential? Again, yes. But they are not prog, they are closer to punk.
That's why proto-prog is a better fit.
I just don't think that everything experimental is automatically related to prog, proto or otherwise.
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Posted: July 11 2012 at 01:31
The Truth wrote:
I'd say yes to proto prog, their long improv jams were vital to the progression of progressive rock and they really were very experimental and influential.
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Posted: July 11 2012 at 18:28
thellama73 wrote:
Well, I'm against their inclusion. Great band? Yes. Innovative as hell? Yes. Massively influential? Again, yes. But they are not prog, they are closer to punk.
well said
No way can they be lumped in with prog - more New Wave meets punk
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Posted: July 12 2012 at 02:00
AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
Well, I'm against their inclusion. Great band? Yes. Innovative as hell? Yes. Massively influential? Again, yes. But they are not prog, they are closer to punk.
well said
No way can they be lumped in with prog - more New Wave meets punk
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Posted: July 12 2012 at 02:40
lazland wrote:
They were not a proto prog band. As someone else said, if anything, they formed a template for much of the 1970's New Wave in America.
Experimental does not equate to prog.
The thing with this is that you're using 21st C. terminology to describe a band form the mid-20th C. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but were the Moody Blues not classified as Proto on PA around six years ago? Bands are not isolated beings and just because VU influenced Punk etc. doesn't mean they didn't influence Prog as well. Cale, Bowie, Eno, Roxy, Talking Heads, any number of Kraut bands...
The OP couldn't find any VU threads. If the OP wants to search using 'Any date' and 'and older' in Find Posts, and Display Results as 'Topics' there are around twenty or so VU threads with about ten in Suggest New Bands. Despite all that I don't think VU has ever been officially evaluated by the Admin Team, so we don't know if they are Proto or not. From the PA definition of Proto: '... developed one or more elements of Prog... an important stage in the evolution of Progressive Rock.' At least one or two boxes ticked?
I'd like to see more of an argument from the OP for the band's inclusion, citing the best musical examples. I think you will also need the support of a Special Collab to put this to Admin. The only Admin I know who regularly posts in VU threads is a fan, but does not (if I remember correctly) think they belong on PA. So you may be minus one vote before you begin. You will therefore need to make a very good case for VU to be considered.
I have considered proposing VU in the past but am undecided myself. I would like to see more members' opinions and, in particular, more support from other Collabs first. But since they've been suggested so many times maybe it's time to nail this once and for all. And how cool would it be to see that big yellow phallus or the Airfix toy soldiers on the PA frontpage?
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Posted: July 12 2012 at 16:16
17 minute experimental jam session.
Jam session in one ear, short story recited by Cale in the other.
I just don't think stuff like this is new wave at all, they did not jam as much as the Velvets and certainly did not display a wide range of styles. They go from stuff like this to little ditties such as this:
Oh, and this too:
This band is putting lyrical complexity as well and musical and sonic complexity into that song.
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The Velvet Underground
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KingCrInuYasha wrote:
