 The Dark Elf wrote:
1) Floyd not prog? No, none of us considered them so in the 70's. Blues rock dressed up with sound fx that burnouts and granola eaters thought was heavy. Very popular, though, no doubt.
Us? Who is us? Your little clique? First, you try to make three people sound like a veritable tidal wave of VdGG fandom, and now those same three somehow make a plurality or majority in regards to your limited definition of prog.
What makes VdGG prog? The insipid whining vocals? The fact you can't even hum along to a song, or find a memorable tune? Maybe you can't.
Melody is not a VdGG forte. But the obscurant lyrics are interesting to read.
Oh, I know, the fact that no one in the U.S. ever even heard of the band in 70s. You and your mainstream loving friends didn't know them. Several heads who were hip to the underground knew of them. They sold out NYC's Beacon Theater on their one and only U.S. appearance (over two thousand fans) in '76 and were played on import programs (and on college stations) across the country. But yeah, they wouldn't have been in Rolling Stone.
My "mainstream loving" friends? That's rich. We've seen Camel. We've seen Gentle Giant. Seen Mclaughlin, Miles Davis , Capt. Beefheart, Tom Waits and King Crimson. I'm not sure what you mean by mainstream, but sorry, we stopped at high-pitched, tormented arias. A whole 2000 people saw VdGG? Gosh, such a high water mark in rock history. How many got free tickets or a Pete Hamill bobblehead?
(but they were big in Italy  ). And Holland. And Belgium. And France. And French Canada. And had a big cult following in Britain (remember, they appeared on the cover of Melody Maker as Britain's most fashionable band). Oh, and a snotty right back at you (and your blog sucks )
Wow! The Benelux countries? And Quebec? Woot! Those are some real feathers in their caps. What next, are they going to conquer Uzbekistan? Or Rwanda? My blog sucks? Well, since it's not a Pete Hamill Teenbeat Blog with big VdGG logos plastered on it, I can understand why it wouldn't hold your attention.
If I look at an album like Animals or Wish You Were Here, I think distinctly prog. I don't.
You're wrong.
As far as your misguided knock on Genesis (I wasn't knocking them, so you're misguided), two of their albums with Gabriel were top ten in the UK (SEbtP and The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway) and two more were top ten while Hackett remained in the Band (Trick of the Tail and Wind and Wuthering). In the U.S., all four of those albums were in the top 70 or better - all before their "commercial success". But the OP stated that they, along w/PF, were one of the two biggest prog bands in existence. Not until the PC hits came along and people worked their way back (Yes and ELP were bigger in the 70's, that I remember well). That's what I was addressing, I wasn't knocking Genesis in that statement.
As far as Genesis, you inferred that their commercial success in the 80s was the reason their earlier albums have sold. That was not the case as I pointed out; ergo, you are misguided.
That's something VdGG couldn't even dream of in their heyday. Well, they never had a heyday, actually. When you, Mr Elf, are gigging with a band that gets huge critical acclaim, is namechecked by a bewildering array of artists (musicians, authors, film directors), gets fantastic coverage in the British/European music press (you've seen the Hammill article in the latest Mojo then?), and can fill audtitoriums in several countries with crowds ranging from 1,200 - 3,000 (or more in some cases), then I'll take your comments seriously.
Considering you have done nothing but act as a shill for your pet cult band, and you have not filled small municipal auditoriums either, then that discounts your opinion as well. I love how you use the phrase "bewildering array of artists" like VdGG was important. Like Elmore James, or Elvis, or Chuck Berry or The Beatles. Or PINK FLOYD.
2) A matter of taste, yes. I would suggest that, growing up in the 70s, a huge swathe of young listeners in every demographic (including plenty of punks that I knew, as well as hippies, rockers, metalheads, college radicals, etc. ) enjoyed Floyd. And still do. And many can't stand them and find them boring. Music for sheep. We hung in different crowds and read different journalists, obviously. Fair enough. Still think the Syd stuff, and late '60s stuff of Floyd's is pretty outstanding though.
As far as "many" not standing Floyd, they have sold over 250 million albums worldwide (like Floyd has outsold VdGG in Italy and Belgium for instance). I'd be willing to bet that even the majority of your beret-wearing, clove cigarette-smoking nihilist friends have worn out and replaced countless Floyd albums and upgraded from vinyl to 8-track to cassette to CD and so on just like millions of others (that's more than the "many" you refer to, which I assume, again, amounts to three). That's what great bands do - they get repeat business and add generations of fans.
But truthfully, I think VdGG would've been a great instrumental band. They probably would have sold more albums in Liechtenstein and San Marino without the obnoxious singing.
3) This matter of taste thing is getting repetitive. I would say rightly that DSotM is acclaimed as one of the greatest albums ever recorded by nearly every rock reviewer on the planet, not by a few oddball eccentrics who wish to prove their decadency. The same sort who would make the sodden claim that The Beatles were overrated. The Beatles weren't over-rated, but Dark Side is (it is acknowledged as an important 'classic' by most, but it's also held up by tons of musicians as everything that's wrong with classic rock. To me, it's worse than crap because it's not even offensive... it's bland and dull (but, again, great sound fx that really had the masses thinking they were hearing something heavy, maaaaan).
You would be in the minority on a planet of one, Little Prince. Again, you use the words "tons of musicians", but there are plenty of musician polls that rate DSotM and Pink Floyd extremely high, whereas VdGG is a footnote beneath a citation on the back side of a food stamp.
4) Johhny Rotten holds about as much musical weight with me as Gary Glitter. Well, you are on the wrong end of history there. There's no convincing you of his importance (historically w/the SP's, but musically moreso with PIL) so I won't try. But those same critics you talk of biggin' up Dark Side will also speak of JR's mega-importance in the history of rock (even mainstream slop like Rolling Stone and Spin big up JR).
Sorry, for someone so keen on apparent musicianship, your idolization of Rotten seems tragically misplaced. But Rotten did say Alice Cooper's 'Killer' was the greatest album of all time, so I guess he isn't all bad. Funny thing, Rotten didn't say that about a VdGG album. 
Rotten is a loudmouth novelty act with safety pins and bad hair. Get off my lawn you punks or I'll call the cops *shakes stick*... don't mess with the Dark Elf!!
Once I saw Iggy and the Stooges and the MC5 in the early 70s, the later punk scene seemed like a joke. And far too late.
If we were looking at the sheer amount of bands that counted them as influences, Floyd would simply crush VdGG. But there are tons of noted/famous musicians who'd prefer VdGG over Floyd and I like them better than the artists who like Floyd (Phil Collins and Peter Gabriel would be two; I rememeber Phil having some very unflattering things to say about Floyd in the press, but he's a VdGG fan, especially of Guy Evans [when I talked to Phil a few years back, he went on about how close he and Guy were back in the day and about what a great drummer he was [and is, although I know Phil hasn't seen Guy in years])
Again with the "tons" reference. Let's see, a ton is 2000 pounds. Are you saying four or five really fat bass players prefer VdGG? I would suggest, from a pure "tonnage" aspect, more musicians prefer Floyd by weight. Yeah, Phil Collins is a virtual paragon of musical integrity. Sing me Su-su-sudio.
Not just us bourgeois listeners, mind you, but bands. That sell albums. Something VdGG never could quite manage. VdGG sold quite a few albums in Europe and even The Least broke Britain's top fifty (they did quite a lot better than that in other countries). The most recent VdGG album made number 13 on Britain's 'Indy Charts' and the label head told me that if the Amazon sales/rankings were counted (which they've now started to do) then it would have made the mainstream rock charts. I've seen the band several times since they've reformed in places like the Royal Festival Hall, Liverpool Philharmonic, Leicester De Montford Hall (where Genesis Live was recorded), Amsterdam's Paradiso, Manchester's Bridgewater Hall, London's Sheperd's Bush Empire, etc, and they were a huge draw (so, around 1,500 - 3,000 at each gig). And they've drawn more than that in Montreal, Quebec City, Moscow, Rome (well, everywhere in Italy naturally), etc. That's at least respectable. Wouldn't you say?
Look, you trot out the same tired statistics and quotes, and then act like I should be impressed by a band managing to fill a 1500 seat hall. I've seen local bands that can do that. Who cares? You really love VdGG. I mean, it's almost a creepy, stalking kind of love that would have a girl seeking a restraining order. But hey, to each his own.
Except in Italy. As far as Floyd being bland, I guess you've never seen one of their concerts. I suppose you've never heard, as I have, 70,000 people all singing "Wish You Were Here" along with the band. Chilling, yes. Oh brother. Spare me. Were they raising their lighters and giving each other back rubs? With tears in their eyes because of the heaviness of the 'scene'? Kill me.
I've seen hundreds of concerts in my life by every band from Alice Cooper to Frank Zappa. I've never seen a better show than a Pink Floyd concert (and Floyd isn't even my favorite band). Sorry if that doesn't fit in with your little clique, but I don't smoke clove cigarettes or wear a beret.
There aren't 70,000 people on the planet who even know who VdGG are. And once they heard them, they would indeed be horrified. Good one...
Again, I really do like VdGG from a musicianship standpoint. If they could erase the god-awful caterwauling that accompanies it, I would listen more often. |
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Van der Graaf Generator vs Pink Floyd
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Fascinating to witness a frustrated writer who's started up his own blog (as if that weren't a cliche) in his mom's basement, for a reading audience of eight, exert his 'musical knowledge' when his nose is bent out of shape!
