Prog Polls - Van der Graaf Generator vs Pink Floyd

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Van der Graaf Generator vs Pink Floyd

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Topic: Van der Graaf Generator vs Pink Floyd

Posted By: Icarium
Subject: Van der Graaf Generator vs Pink Floyd
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 03:02

I think this is a very interesting paring as both is well known for a sort of harsh sound, and spaced out chaotic jamming/playing, cacophonic and often bizzare but also very beautifull and romantic at times, groovy, but also melancholic (i would say). I think both band have strong similaritys.

Ummagumma is to me very close to the sound of Van der Graaf, in terms of dissonance and mystesisme, it must have been an influentual album for Hammil (and Fripp) lots of good ideas on that for every composer in the so called eclectic prog scene Wink

(i know it is not a scene but hey).

so who is your favourite band the Floyds or the Generators,,,

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Replies:

Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 03:36

Pink Floyd, but Van der Graaf Generator has reached high on my list in recent years.

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Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 03:48

Van Der Graaf Generator hands down!

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Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 04:05

VDGG

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Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.

Posted By: prog61
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 04:14

Posted By: friso
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 04:25

VdGG

Posted By: ole-the-first
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 04:56

Van Der Graaf Generator.

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This night wounds time.

Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 05:25

VeDeGa

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wtf

Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 06:42

Comparing what ? Confused

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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution

Posted By: Daysbetween
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 06:46

VdGG easily but I do love some Floyd.

Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 06:49

octopus-4 wrote:

Comparing what ? Confused

whats your point Shocked

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Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 07:12

Floyd by miles.

VDGG aren't really that highly rated anywhere but on this particular site, but Floyd are absolute legends in the world of prog.

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A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.

Posted By: The Bearded Bard
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 07:18

I like both, but neither is my favourite band. Gotta go with Floyd though, just because of Wish You Were Here. VDGG doesn't have an album as good as that imo.

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Posted By: yanch
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 07:28

Pink Floyd. In know VdGG is very popular and well respected, but they just don't do it for me.

Posted By: proggy
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 08:12

I can't get past Hammills vocals...And musically, its not even close imo opinion....Floyd all the way....

Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 08:12

someone_else wrote:

Pink Floyd, but Van der Graaf Generator has reached high on my list in recent years.

Me too

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Posted By: Glucose
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 10:31

VDGG. Floyds are perfect, but Van der Graafs are perfect even more.

Posted By: Anthony H.
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 10:34

Pink Floyd by an incalculably huge margin.

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Posted By: kevin4peace
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 10:48

Definitely Floyd. I've been getting into VDGG a bit more lately, but they just don't compare with the Floydsters for me.

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Nothing to say here. Nothing at all. Nothing is easy.

Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 11:13

prog61 wrote:

[head-scratching] Come again?

The Floyd. VdGG are not even on my list of favorites. I think I would lose my consciousness listening to the Graaf's wackiness and Hammill's cryptic poetry (as poetry usually is).

Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 11:39

Van der Graaf Generator stomps on the weak.

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Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.

Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 11:40

it is even

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Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 11:53

FLOYD for me but both are legendary.

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"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"

"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN

Posted By: Mr. Maestro
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 11:53

VdGG, easily. As much as I love the Floyd, it's just no contest.

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"I am the one who crossed through space...or stayed where I was...or didn't exist in the first place...."

Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 12:04

While I can admire and respect VDGG, their music does very little for me. The Floyd it is.

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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"

Posted By: silcir
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 12:08

Both Great.

But since GODBLUFF was the 2nd or 3rd prog album i heard (extra info. the 1st was bursting out, and 2nd/3rd was either this one or GG's Octopus) it has to me a higher meaning, so VDGG gets it.

Posted By: refugee
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 12:26

Hercules wrote:

Floyd by miles.

VDGG aren't really that highly rated anywhere but on this particular site, but Floyd are absolute legends in the world of prog.

You keep telling us that, but repeating a false statement doesn’t make it true.

What do these polls measure anyway? The preferences of the PA members who happen to be active at the time of the poll. That shouldn’t be so hard to deal with, even if you and your friends disagree with the result.

That much said, I’m pretty sure PF will win this.

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He say nothing is quite what it seems;
I say nothing is nothing
(Peter Hammill)

Posted By: gents
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 12:28

Very hard to decide...............Floyd is.....well.....Floyd, great and fabulous, but VDGG is really something specially different......different state of mind and feelings.....simply genious..........

percentage is no longer 50:50.....sorry Floyd

Posted By: MillsLayne
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 12:50

Pink Floyd for me, simply because I prefer David Gilmour's vocals over Peter Hammil's.

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Posted By: apps79
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 12:51

no question for me, VDGG by many miles

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Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 12:59

I thoroughly enjoy both, but VDGG wins this one pretty easily as they are one of my top three bands. Floyd falls a little further down the list.

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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?

Posted By: MFP
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 13:52

VDGG

Posted By: Wanorak
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 14:32

Very tough choice but Floyd. If I want a more challenging listen then VDGG.

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A GREAT YEAR FOR PROG!!!

Posted By: Fox On The Rocks
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 14:45

Easily Van Der Graaf Generator. H To He, Pawn hearts, Godbluff and Still Life are all of immaculate and impeccable quality. Floyd have never reached that level with me except on a few albums - Wish You Were Here and The Wall. Van Der Graaf are one of my favourite bands ever - in my top 5.

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Posted By: geneyesontle
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 16:07

VDGG

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Posted By: iluvmarillion
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 18:55

VDGG are a bit more imaginative but Pink Floyd are closer to my heart.

Posted By: Earthmover
Date Posted: June 16 2012 at 19:10

I wouldn't vote even if I could, because I've only heard Still Life by VdGG, but every single studio album by PF, so it would be unfair. But, from what I expect from VdGG, I think they will win. I prefer Still Life over all PF albums except WYWH.

Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: June 17 2012 at 03:17

Hercules wrote:

VDGG aren't really that highly rated anywhere but on this particular site

Well, he hates 'em (which I can respect) but he's just not in touch with modern critical opinion (like, he must never read Mojo, Uncut, The Wire, etc... or be aware of the legion of famous admirers the band have. And he's certainly never gone to any of their recent concerts in sizeable theaters and auditoriums where the band habitually draws very well. Which is fine, but it just trumpets his ignorance when he states something like this). I've addressed this before with Hercules (who actually seems like a nice guy in most of his posts, albeit a little confused) and the old reply will suffice here (this one was in response to his calling VdGG an extremely minor band):

VdGG were a 'cult' band in Britain, but they were certainly not "extremely minor" as you say. They definitely weren't "major" but they played to audiences of about 1,200 - 1,500 in the UK. That's at least moderately successful. And they were on the cover of Melody Maker in May '71 as "Britain's Most Fashionable Band." Just being on the cover of MM alone would imply some sort of success level, but being called Britain's Most Fashionable Band was definitely a feather in their cap. But it's true that they could just never get over the hump, and they never had anything close to a 'hit' although many Brits knew "Theme One" because John Peel used it to open and close his show. You and your friends might have hated VdGG and so they were avoided by you and not on your radar, but they still were on the radar of many 'heads'. And as you correctly state, VdGG were very popular on the continent in countries like Belgium, France, Italy, Holland, etc, and even French Canada.

I think your intense dislike of them (which you've expressed before on this forum) gets your nose out of joint whenever they do well in a poll. I've seen other VdGG-detractors/haters express this same thing, and even do an almost mocking sort of thing where it's said that this is the only place that VdGG can do well because they have no other fans other than on ProgArchives, which is a joke. Many VdGG admirers aren't into any other prog bands and certainly wouldn't be hanging out on a prog internet forum! I've seen VdGG several times in the UK, since they reformed, in auditoriums/theaters with crowds ranging from 1,200 - 3,000 and of all the VdGG heads I've met, only a minor fraction even knew what ProgArchives or Progressiveears was. Hammill and VdGG are considered the 'hipper' end of prog and get glowing articles in Mojo, Uncut, The Wire, etc... that just ain't going to happen for Gentle Giant, Camel, etc. A lot of their 'hipness' comes from the fact that they were an inspiration to many punk rockers (another fact that drives fans of more conventional prog bonkers), but the fact is that VdGG is far more respected by the hipper-than-thou British music critics than almost any other prog band. Like it or not, that's a major feather in the cap and has helped them to sell a lot of albums (or CD's, I should say!).

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jc

Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: June 17 2012 at 03:25

more hipper-then-though should listen to Gentle Giant Tongue

, punk with Gentle Giant mix would be awesome

i really like Van der Graaf Generator, i like their dynamic rumblingness and strange dissonance which only they are capable to make, they make cacophony musical

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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: June 17 2012 at 06:46

Floyd on vocals alone.

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to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...

Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: June 17 2012 at 07:40

There is nothing wrong with VdGG as far as their professionalism and productivity. They surely have been playing decent tunes for 4+ decades, but I don't think they have quite managed to revolutionize anything. I am not even seeing any strong impact or sustained influence, exerted by VdGG on the World's musical heritage.

Has to be PF, therefore!

Posted By: FromAbove
Date Posted: June 17 2012 at 09:41

VdGG, primarily because I've listened to both bands completely.

Floyd was awesome in the beginning, but I feel Pink Floyd becomes rather standardized after Meddle, and it began to sound all the same to me. I didn't see any innovation from them after Meddle until A Momentary Lapse of Reason. The vocoders get annoying after a while.

VdGG has some variety, and I find their music sometimes more enjoyable to listen to than Pink Floyd.

In my honest opinion, I believe Hammill to be a better singer than Waters. To me, Waters seems to be almost all the same after some albums. Gilmour as well.

Posted By: leolabin
Date Posted: June 17 2012 at 16:25

I love both bands but I have to go with Pink Floyd.

Posted By: Eria Tarka
Date Posted: June 17 2012 at 18:51

Is it weird that I found VDGG alot easier to get into than Floyd?

Posted By: Fox On The Rocks
Date Posted: June 17 2012 at 21:27

bytor2112 wrote:

Is it weird that I found VDGG alot easier to get into than Floyd?

Heh. Same. Big smile

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Posted By: King Manuel
Date Posted: June 18 2012 at 12:32

There are only two Floyd Albums I love from the first to the last track without being tempted to skip a track, however four VdGG albums of which I can say the same!

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Don't Bore Us, Get To The Chorus

Posted By: colorofmoney91
Date Posted: June 18 2012 at 20:28

I vote Pink Floyd because they're chill and because Peter Hammill's voice is like nails on a chalkboard.

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Posted By: ProgEpics
Date Posted: June 19 2012 at 00:41

VDGG bores me, cant even get through a whole album without feeling like every song offers nothing new.

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Come on you target for faraway laughter,
Come on you stranger, you legend, you martyr, and shine!

Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: June 19 2012 at 00:43

I bet VdGG is like some kind of a mental exercise. You just keep practicing till it's piece of cake for ya. Ditto for GG.

Posted By: Gandalff
Date Posted: June 19 2012 at 06:08

Pink Floyd are much more famous (actually, along with Genesis, the most famous prog band).
Their music is generally more palatable.
They have more real "masterpieces". Van der Graaf Generator have only one in fact - Pawn Hearts.
But VDGG are leading over Pink Floyd at the moment. What paradoxes!

(I voted for Floyds, of course.)

-------------
A Elbereth Gilthoniel
silivren penna míriel
o menel aglar elenath!
Na-chaered palan-díriel
o galadhremmin ennorath,
Fanuilos, le linnathon
nef aear, sí nef aearon!

Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: June 19 2012 at 07:55

Gandalff wrote:

Pink Floyd are much more famous (actually, along with Genesis, the most famous prog band).
Their music is generally more palatable.
They have more real "masterpieces". Van der Graaf Generator have only one in fact - Pawn Hearts.
But VDGG are leading over Pink Floyd at the moment. What paradoxes!

(I voted for Floyds, of course.)

Point by Point:

1. Famous doesn't mean better. And before prog forums started up, no one I knew ever considered Floyd prog (it's more like blues rock dressed up with weird sound effects and stereophonic hijinks; a lot of burnouts in high school and yoga teachers thought it was heavy stuff). Genesis became really famous during the Phil Collins 'greatest hits' era. Then you had millions working their way back through the catalog and discovering the prog stuff. So they owe their mega-fame to 'Invisible Touch,' 'We Can't Dance,' etc rather than 'Supper's Ready.'

2. A matter of taste, but fair enough.

3. A matter of taste; yours is misguided and wrong in my eyes, but mine would be in yours. Just opinions, eh? You should hear Godbluff & Still Life, though. Many consider them masterpieces as well (although you won't read about it in Rolling Stone or Spin)

4. Maybe the reason that VdGG is doing well is that Pink Floyd (after their brilliant first few albums, i.e. Piper, Saucerful, etc) became really boring. Johnny Rotten called them 'music for sheep', and I'm inclined to agree. Not to piss anyone off, it's just my opinion. And I totally get and respect how people can hate VdGG and Hammill. That's the thing, though. I can see where people would find VdGG like nails on a chalkboard and truly hate them [which, paradoxically, is a 'positive' in my eyes]; I cannot see where PF would inspire that reaction because they're worse than hate-inspiring -- they're just bland / boring. One poster described them as 'chill' and I can see where that's coming from. VdGG was never 'chill.' They were more like the dark side of prog, hair-tearing, psychotic panic. Soundtracks for nightmares. You either loved it or hated it.

Pink Floyd was more successful, but it's similiar to how Spielberg will always be more "successful" than Fellini. It's easier to digest for the masses, but it doesn't mean it's a greater artistic success. John Anthony, by the way, is the legendary British producer who has amongst his credits Genesis, Queen, Roxy Music, Al Stewart, The Tubes, Ace (he did their mega-single 'How Long'), and of course Van der Graaf.

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jc

Posted By: Glucose
Date Posted: June 19 2012 at 08:22

ProgEpics wrote:

VDGG bores me, cant even get through a whole album without feeling like every song offers nothing new.

...When I had my PF season, I thaught there can not be more inspirative music; but then I heard VDGG.
They have a power to absolutely remove the fear of death for a while and I always have some very strong feelings when I'm listening to them. Not boring at all..in my opinion. Pink Floyd are passed through their own kind os typical sadness in every song. Beautiful songs, but not as good as Hammill's

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Under the rocks and stones,
there is water underground

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 19 2012 at 08:42

yanch wrote:

Pink Floyd. In know VdGG is very popular and well respected, but they just don't do it for me.

^^^^^^

That

Iván

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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 19 2012 at 11:03

bucka001 wrote:

. I can see where people would find VdGG like nails on a chalkboard and truly hate them [which, paradoxically, is a 'positive' in my eyes]; I cannot see where PF would inspire that reaction because they're worse than hate-inspiring -- they're just bland / boring.

Waters's strained vocals sound like nails to a chalkboard on large parts of Wall. Especially The Trial.

Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: June 19 2012 at 11:13

Hi,

On principle ... I will not vote on this one.

Totally unfair question that I wish not to answer ... I love both dearly, although I could state that Peter's words resonate really well with me ... and I can relate to them a lot. But PF has also been very important in my life and words!

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Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: June 19 2012 at 11:45

rogerthat wrote:

Waters's strained vocals sound like nails to a chalkboard on large parts of Wall. Especially The Trial.

Maybe it has to be that way to go along with the concept, kind of complete the album.

Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: June 19 2012 at 11:47

Dayvenkirq wrote:

rogerthat wrote:

Waters's strained vocals sound like nails to a chalkboard on large parts of Wall. Especially The Trial.

Maybe it has to be that way to go along with the concept, kind of complete the album.

The Trial is still terrible. LOL

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Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: June 19 2012 at 11:58

^ Would it be more terrible if the song was turned into a video clip with the judge being an a#$ (as the album artwork suggests) ? Gro-o-o-o-oss Big smile

Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: June 19 2012 at 12:04

Dayvenkirq wrote:

^ Would it be more terrible if the song was turned into a video clip with the judge being an a#$ (as the album artwork suggests) ? Gro-o-o-o-oss Big smile

The visuals could dampen the harshness. Or it just might not make any difference at all, or make it worse. Tongue

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Posted By: Gandalff
Date Posted: June 19 2012 at 15:50

bucka001 wrote:

Gandalff wrote:

Pink Floyd are much more famous (actually, along with Genesis, the most famous prog band).
Their music is generally more palatable.
They have more real "masterpieces". Van der Graaf Generator have only one in fact - Pawn Hearts.
But VDGG are leading over Pink Floyd at the moment. What paradoxes!

(I voted for Floyds, of course.)

Point by Point:

2. A matter of taste, but fair enough.

Well. You're huge VdGG fan, as we can see from your avatar. Maybe therefore you're somewhat biased. I'm not a fan of both listed bands, but Dark Side Of The Moon was my first real touch with the kind of a Prog Rock in my age about 10. I should add more reasons why I prefer Pink Floyd over Van der Graaf Generator:

Pink Floyd always had a genuine guitar and bass.
They had three quite acceptable singers, VdGG has only one, although excellent, but, frankly, somewhat polarizing singer (as someone said above, after all).
Pink Floyd had much memorable melodies, how many VdGG's ones anyone can able to sing?
Pink Floyd had truly better and more colorful wizard behind the keyboard.

To be fair, the drummer from Van der Graaf Generator is obviously better.

-------------
A Elbereth Gilthoniel
silivren penna míriel
o menel aglar elenath!
Na-chaered palan-díriel
o galadhremmin ennorath,
Fanuilos, le linnathon
nef aear, sí nef aearon!

Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: June 19 2012 at 15:58

I still think Ummagumma (studion version ) is VDGG related in terms of dissonence

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Posted By: ProgEpics
Date Posted: June 19 2012 at 17:28

VDGG is obviously very talented but I don't feel moved by their music in any way. It just has a forced sound to it.

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Come on you target for faraway laughter,
Come on you stranger, you legend, you martyr, and shine!

Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 19 2012 at 22:17

irrelevant wrote:

Dayvenkirq wrote:

rogerthat wrote:

Waters's strained vocals sound like nails to a chalkboard on large parts of Wall. Especially The Trial.

Maybe it has to be that way to go along with the concept, kind of complete the album.

The Trial is still terrible. LOL

Yeah, I know what the context is but it still makes me cringe. I felt Waters over-reached himself as a singer in that album, though it also has some of his memorable moments where his demented high pitched whining actually works very well - like One of My Turns.

Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 19 2012 at 22:24

Gandalff wrote:

Pink Floyd always had a genuine guitar and bass.
They had three quite acceptable singers, VdGG has only one, although excellent, but, frankly, somewhat polarizing singer (as someone said above, after all).
Pink Floyd had much memorable melodies, how many VdGG's ones anyone can able to sing?
Pink Floyd had truly better and more colorful wizard behind the keyboard.

To be fair, the drummer from Van der Graaf Generator is obviously better.

Haven't you heard...memorable melodies are banned in prog as they are too commercial and easy (and apparently have absolutely nothing to do with compositional skill). I don't blame buck, though, because Hercules likes to dismiss VDGG's influence without basis. It is quite true that they are one of the few prog rock bands that are considered hip in punk circles (not that I am inclined to attach any special importance to that because PF are also placed in roughly the same category as Who, LZ, Doors in terms of importance and if that is commercial, so be it Hug

)

Posted By: Gandalff
Date Posted: June 19 2012 at 22:42

rogerthat wrote:

Gandalff wrote:

Pink Floyd always had a genuine guitar and bass.
They had three quite acceptable singers, VdGG has only one, although excellent, but, frankly, somewhat polarizing singer (as someone said above, after all).
Pink Floyd had much memorable melodies, how many VdGG's ones anyone can able to sing?
Pink Floyd had truly better and more colorful wizard behind the keyboard.

To be fair, the drummer from Van der Graaf Generator is obviously better.

)

I hope you did think in hyperbole because other Prog Rock icons such as King Crimson, Yes or Genesis (well, those early with Gabriel) have also a lot of memorable melodies and yet are not "commercial".

-------------
A Elbereth Gilthoniel
silivren penna míriel
o menel aglar elenath!
Na-chaered palan-díriel
o galadhremmin ennorath,
Fanuilos, le linnathon
nef aear, sí nef aearon!

Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 04:15

Gandalff wrote:

rogerthat wrote:

Gandalff wrote:

Pink Floyd always had a genuine guitar and bass.
They had three quite acceptable singers, VdGG has only one, although excellent, but, frankly, somewhat polarizing singer (as someone said above, after all).
Pink Floyd had much memorable melodies, how many VdGG's ones anyone can able to sing?
Pink Floyd had truly better and more colorful wizard behind the keyboard.

To be fair, the drummer from Van der Graaf Generator is obviously better.

)

Oh, dear. That was sarcasm. With that told, Floyd is even more 'straight up' than those bands you mentioned. Which is one of the reasons they are also considered classic rock.

Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 05:28

Gandalff wrote:

bucka001 wrote:

Gandalff wrote:

Pink Floyd are much more famous (actually, along with Genesis, the most famous prog band).
Their music is generally more palatable.
They have more real "masterpieces". Van der Graaf Generator have only one in fact - Pawn Hearts.
But VDGG are leading over Pink Floyd at the moment. What paradoxes!

(I voted for Floyds, of course.)

Point by Point:

2. A matter of taste, but fair enough.

Pink Floyd always had a genuine guitar and bass.
They had three quite acceptable singers, VdGG has only one, although excellent, but, frankly, somewhat polarizing singer (as someone said above, after all).
Pink Floyd had much memorable melodies, how many VdGG's ones anyone can able to sing?
Pink Floyd had truly better and more colorful wizard behind the keyboard.

To be fair, the drummer from Van der Graaf Generator is obviously better.

Well, yeah I'm a fan... I wrote a book on 'em and they're my friends! I will say that Richard Wright and Nick Mason are my two fave Floyds (Waters and Gilmour not so much). I think RW is pretty great and would take his "architect of the total music" style over Wakeman/Emerson's synth flashiness any day. But Hugh Banton is pretty incredible; brilliant actually. If you see him live, and watch his feet... he's playing impossibly complex stuff on the manuals, and his feet are dancing these great bass lines at the same time. I still don't know how he does it (he's also one of the few rock organists who covers on bass pedals, as VdGG has no bass gtrst). He, too, plays to the architecture and textures of the total music, rather than appearing as a mega-flash soloist.

My main issue in these polls is when someone like Hercules (who does seem like a good enough guy in his posts otherwise) and you (no offense) profess amazement that a moderately succussful band could do well in a poll against a mega-superstar band, and that the success of the one band automatically means they're "better" (whatever that is). Here's the thing... this is a prog forum. A lot of people on here are going to know and be familiar with VdGG because it's a prog forum. If this same poll were done on a classic rock forum or 'general music' forum, it'd be no contest (for every one VdGG fan, there are a thousand Floyd fans). But this is a specialized forum and here bands like VdGG, Magma, Gentle Giant, Camel, etc, are just as known as the 'biggies' so mainstream success doesn't play into the outcomes of polls. So I don't get the befuddlement. And I think we'd all agree (at least I thought we would) that mainstream success doesn't neccessarily equal quality, or ensure "superiority." Otherwise we'd all agree that Madonna is better than Yes (she certainly has sustained her A-level success for longer than Yes; I'm not a fan but she's definitely still mega-huge).

-------------
jc

Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 05:40

rogerthat wrote:

I don't blame buck, though, because Hercules likes to dismiss VDGG's influence without basis. It is quite true that they are one of the few prog rock bands that are considered hip in punk circles (not that I am inclined to attach any special importance to that because PF are also placed in roughly the same category as Who, LZ, Doors in terms of importance and if that is commercial, so be it Hug

)

Yeah, that's pretty much it (and VdGG's cred / influence extends beyond just the punks / post punks, by the way

). I'm fine with people hating VdGG. That's not BS, I really can see where they wouldn't be someone's cup of tea. When I first heard Hammill's harsh singing I wasn't sold (hardly), although I did love is smoother vocals on the first few albums (he developed the harshness later). I've actually heard some detractors come up with stuff that I had to laugh at when they described Hammill's voice. I had to admit I knew where they were coming from, even though I still loved The Voice. One guy wrote at one time, "It sounds like some old guy shouting at kids to get off his lawn." (!!) Awesome!

And I was used to great technique and virtuoso soloing (I grew up with old Genesis, ELP, Yes, etc) and VdGG didn't seem interested in solo-ing, etc, so I thought they weren't as good. (I've revised that opinion).

So, yes, I have no problem with Herc (and others) absolutely despising the band. Fair enough. But his hatred has him saying things that I think he wishes were true, rather than are true. Saying that VdGG aren't respected anywhere but on this particular forum is as ludicrous as me saying "Early Floyd was never considered psychedelia by anyone except people on this forum." (By the way, early Floyd stuff is some of my fave music ever... it's only around DSOTM and forward that they lost the plot for me... the rest of the world didn't seem to have a problem with it though!).

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jc

Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 06:16

bucka001 wrote:

(By the way, early Floyd stuff is some of my fave music ever... it's only around DSOTM and forward that they lost the plot for me... the rest of the world didn't seem to have a problem with it though!).

And even if they didn't, Roger Waters seems to agree when he says that Dark Side basically finished the band. Smile

Posted By: -Radioswim-
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 15:56

Can't we all agree that it's subjective

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Dust in the Kitchen

Posted By: gazagod
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 22:01

vdgg and hamill are definitely an acquired taste for, well, anyone... and I've listened to everything from Schoenberg to Albert Ayler to Graveland and enjoyed them all... once you 'get' the band, though, a whole new experience and appreciation of the music and lyric opens up... I think the same thing can happen with other bands with unconventional vocal deliveries(from the point of view of mainstream rock)...but both bands have reflective lyrics as well, though VDGG are quite a bit more personal to me

I Love Pink Floyd, but they are about as conventional (instrumentally) as one can get and still be considered 'prog'... ah well, maybe not...(the live at pompeii-and the other early stuff- has a psych freakout or two) i never have understood 'prog as genre' and i doubt anyone else does either- witness the endless pedantic debates on these bbs... LOL

hey it's all good fun... and a catchall that successfully(?) binds an eclectic array of sonic narratives

Im not able to vote yet and fine with that because I couldnt rank one over the other... both delivered years of listening pleasure

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we only know that we do not know

Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 22:28

bucka001 wrote:

Gandalff wrote:

Pink Floyd are much more famous (actually, along with Genesis, the most famous prog band).
Their music is generally more palatable.
They have more real "masterpieces". Van der Graaf Generator have only one in fact - Pawn Hearts.
But VDGG are leading over Pink Floyd at the moment. What paradoxes!

(I voted for Floyds, of course.)

Point by Point:

2. A matter of taste, but fair enough.

Point by point rebuttal:

1) Floyd not prog? What makes VdGG prog? The insipid whining vocals? The fact you can't even hum along to a song, or find a memorable tune? Oh, I know, the fact that no one in the U.S. ever even heard of the band in 70s (but they were big in Italy

). If I look at an album like Animals or Wish You Were Here, I think distinctly prog. As far as your misguided knock on Genesis, two of their albums with Gabriel were top ten in the UK (SEbtP and The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway) and two more were top ten while Hackett remained in the Band (Trick of the Tail and Wind and Wuthering). In the U.S., all four of those albums were in the top 70 or better - all before their "commercial success". That's something VdGG couldn't even dream of in their heyday. Well, they never had a heyday, actually.

4) Johhny Rotten holds about as much musical weight with me as Gary Glitter. Or Tiny Tim. Rotten is a loudmouth novelty act with safety pins and bad hair. If we were looking at the sheer amount of bands that counted them as influences, Floyd would simply crush VdGG. Not just us bourgeois listeners, mind you, but bands. That sell albums. Something VdGG never could quite manage. Except in Italy. As far as Floyd being bland, I guess you've never seen one of their concerts. I suppose you've never heard, as I have, 70,000 people all singing "Wish You Were Here" along with the band. Chilling, yes. There aren't 70,000 people on the planet who even know who VdGG are. And once they heard them, they would indeed be horrified.

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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...

Posted By: gazagod
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 22:37

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

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we only know that we do not know

Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 22:44

gazagod wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Conversely, argumentum non populum (they are not popular; ergo, they must be great) is specious. Perhaps even fallatious!

-------------
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...

Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 00:29

The Dark Elf wrote:

1) Floyd not prog? No, none of us considered them so in the 70's. Blues rock dressed up with sound fx that burnouts and granola eaters thought was heavy. Very popular, though, no doubt.

What makes VdGG prog? The insipid whining vocals? The fact you can't even hum along to a song, or find a memorable tune? Maybe you can't.

Oh, I know, the fact that no one in the U.S. ever even heard of the band in 70s. You and your mainstream loving friends didn't know them. Several heads who were hip to the underground knew of them. They sold out NYC's Beacon Theater on their one and only U.S. appearance (over two thousand fans) in '76 and were played on import programs (and on college stations) across the country. But yeah, they wouldn't have been in Rolling Stone.

(but they were big in Italy

). And Holland. And Belgium. And France. And French Canada. And had a big cult following in Britain (remember, they appeared on the cover of Melody Maker as Britain's most fashionable band). Oh, and a snotty right back at you (and your blog sucks )

If I look at an album like Animals or Wish You Were Here, I think distinctly prog. I don't.

As far as your misguided knock on Genesis (I wasn't knocking them, so you're misguided), two of their albums with Gabriel were top ten in the UK (SEbtP and The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway) and two more were top ten while Hackett remained in the Band (Trick of the Tail and Wind and Wuthering). In the U.S., all four of those albums were in the top 70 or better - all before their "commercial success". But the OP stated that they, along w/PF, were one of the two biggest prog bands in existence. Not until the PC hits came along and people worked their way back (Yes and ELP were bigger in the 70's, that I remember well). That's what I was addressing, I wasn't knocking Genesis in that statement.

That's something VdGG couldn't even dream of in their heyday. Well, they never had a heyday, actually. When you, Mr Elf, are gigging with a band that gets huge critical acclaim, is namechecked by a bewildering array of artists (musicians, authors, film directors), gets fantastic coverage in the British/European music press (you've seen the Hammill article in the latest Mojo then?), and can fill audtitoriums in several countries with crowds ranging from 1,200 - 3,000 (or more in some cases), then I'll take your comments seriously.

2) A matter of taste, yes. I would suggest that, growing up in the 70s, a huge swathe of young listeners in every demographic (including plenty of punks that I knew, as well as hippies, rockers, metalheads, college radicals, etc. ) enjoyed Floyd. And still do. And many can't stand them and find them boring. Music for sheep. We hung in different crowds and read different journalists, obviously. Fair enough. Still think the Syd stuff, and late '60s stuff of Floyd's is pretty outstanding though.

3) This matter of taste thing is getting repetitive. I would say rightly that DSotM is acclaimed as one of the greatest albums ever recorded by nearly every rock reviewer on the planet, not by a few oddball eccentrics who wish to prove their decadency. The same sort who would make the sodden claim that The Beatles were overrated. The Beatles weren't over-rated, but Dark Side is (it is acknowledged as an important 'classic' by most, but it's also held up by tons of musicians as everything that's wrong with classic rock. To me, it's worse than crap because it's not even offensive... it's bland and dull (but, again, great sound fx that really had the masses thinking they were hearing something heavy, maaaaan).

4) Johhny Rotten holds about as much musical weight with me as Gary Glitter. Well, you are on the wrong end of history there. There's no convincing you of his importance (historically w/the SP's, but musically moreso with PIL) so I won't try. But those same critics you talk of biggin' up Dark Side will also speak of JR's mega-importance in the history of rock (even mainstream slop like Rolling Stone and Spin big up JR).

Rotten is a loudmouth novelty act with safety pins and bad hair. Get off my lawn you punks or I'll call the cops *shakes stick*... don't mess with the Dark Elf!!

If we were looking at the sheer amount of bands that counted them as influences, Floyd would simply crush VdGG. But there are tons of noted/famous musicians who'd prefer VdGG over Floyd and I like them better than the artists who like Floyd (Phil Collins and Peter Gabriel would be two; I rememeber Phil having some very unflattering things to say about Floyd in the press, but he's a VdGG fan, especially of Guy Evans [when I talked to Phil a few years back, he went on about how close he and Guy were back in the day and about what a great drummer he was [and is, although I know Phil hasn't seen Guy in years])

Not just us bourgeois listeners, mind you, but bands. That sell albums. Something VdGG never could quite manage. VdGG sold quite a few albums in Europe and even The Least broke Britain's top fifty (they did quite a lot better than that in other countries). The most recent VdGG album made number 13 on Britain's 'Indy Charts' and the label head told me that if the Amazon sales/rankings were counted (which they've now started to do) then it would have made the mainstream rock charts. I've seen the band several times since they've reformed in places like the Royal Festival Hall, Liverpool Philharmonic, Leicester De Montford Hall (where Genesis Live was recorded), Amsterdam's Paradiso, Manchester's Bridgewater Hall, London's Sheperd's Bush Empire, etc, and they were a huge draw (so, around 1,500 - 3,000 at each gig). And they've drawn more than that in Montreal, Quebec City, Moscow, Rome (well, everywhere in Italy naturally), etc. That's at least respectable. Wouldn't you say?

Except in Italy. As far as Floyd being bland, I guess you've never seen one of their concerts. I suppose you've never heard, as I have, 70,000 people all singing "Wish You Were Here" along with the band. Chilling, yes. Oh brother. Spare me. Were they raising their lighters and giving each other back rubs? With tears in their eyes because of the heaviness of the 'scene'? Kill me.

There aren't 70,000 people on the planet who even know who VdGG are. And once they heard them, they would indeed be horrified.

Good one...

-------------
jc

Posted By: Stool Man
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 08:39

Pink Floyd have been my favourite band for about forty years - I didn't even listen to any other prog album until the late 70s. Didn't start listening to VDGG until this century. They're ok I suppose...

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rotten hound of the burnie crew

Posted By: digdug
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 08:50

Flooooooooyd

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Prog On!

Posted By: geogkrt
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 11:08

Pink Floyd is mostly pretty boring. Van Der Graaf Generator wins.

Well I do really like Wish You Were Here and Animals, but the other albums range from mediocre to...well mediocre. They haven't made anything particularly bad, I just find them bland. And I don't think Dark Side of the Moon is anything special, either.

Posted By: -Radioswim-
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 18:28

geogkrt wrote:

Pink Floyd is mostly pretty boring. Van Der Graaf Generator wins.

Well I do really like Wish You Were Here and Animals, but the other albums range from mediocre to...well mediocre. They haven't made anything particularly bad, I just find them bland. And I don't think Dark Side of the Moon is anything special, either.

I wouldn't consider them medicre, but I still to this day (and probably never will) understand Pink Floyd's absolutely massive commercial appeal.

VDGG is the clear winner for me though.

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Dust in the Kitchen

Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 22:10

bucka001 wrote:

The Dark Elf wrote:

1) Floyd not prog? No, none of us considered them so in the 70's. Blues rock dressed up with sound fx that burnouts and granola eaters thought was heavy. Very popular, though, no doubt.

Us? Who is us? Your little clique? First, you try to make three people sound like a veritable tidal wave of VdGG fandom, and now those same three somehow make a plurality or majority in regards to your limited definition of prog.

What makes VdGG prog? The insipid whining vocals? The fact you can't even hum along to a song, or find a memorable tune? Maybe you can't.

Melody is not a VdGG forte. But the obscurant lyrics are interesting to read.

My "mainstream loving" friends? That's rich. We've seen Camel. We've seen Gentle Giant. Seen Mclaughlin, Miles Davis , Capt. Beefheart, Tom Waits and King Crimson. I'm not sure what you mean by mainstream, but sorry, we stopped at high-pitched, tormented arias. A whole 2000 people saw VdGG? Gosh, such a high water mark in rock history. How many got free tickets or a Pete Hamill bobblehead?

(but they were big in Italy

Wow! The Benelux countries? And Quebec? Woot! Those are some real feathers in their caps. What next, are they going to conquer Uzbekistan? Or Rwanda? My blog sucks? Well, since it's not a Pete Hamill Teenbeat Blog with big VdGG logos plastered on it, I can understand why it wouldn't hold your attention.

If I look at an album like Animals or Wish You Were Here, I think distinctly prog. I don't.

You're wrong.

As far as Genesis, you inferred that their commercial success in the 80s was the reason their earlier albums have sold. That was not the case as I pointed out; ergo, you are misguided.

Considering you have done nothing but act as a shill for your pet cult band, and you have not filled small municipal auditoriums either, then that discounts your opinion as well. I love how you use the phrase "bewildering array of artists" like VdGG was important. Like Elmore James, or Elvis, or Chuck Berry or The Beatles. Or PINK FLOYD.

As far as "many" not standing Floyd, they have sold over 250 million albums worldwide (like Floyd has outsold VdGG in Italy and Belgium for instance). I'd be willing to bet that even the majority of your beret-wearing, clove cigarette-smoking nihilist friends have worn out and replaced countless Floyd albums and upgraded from vinyl to 8-track to cassette to CD and so on just like millions of others (that's more than the "many" you refer to, which I assume, again, amounts to three). That's what great bands do - they get repeat business and add generations of fans.

But truthfully, I think VdGG would've been a great instrumental band. They probably would have sold more albums in Liechtenstein and San Marino without the obnoxious singing.

You would be in the minority on a planet of one, Little Prince. Again, you use the words "tons of musicians", but there are plenty of musician polls that rate DSotM and Pink Floyd extremely high, whereas VdGG is a footnote beneath a citation on the back side of a food stamp.

Sorry, for someone so keen on apparent musicianship, your idolization of Rotten seems tragically misplaced. But Rotten did say Alice Cooper's 'Killer' was the greatest album of all time, so I guess he isn't all bad. Funny thing, Rotten didn't say that about a VdGG album.

Rotten is a loudmouth novelty act with safety pins and bad hair. Get off my lawn you punks or I'll call the cops *shakes stick*... don't mess with the Dark Elf!!

Once I saw Iggy and the Stooges and the MC5 in the early 70s, the later punk scene seemed like a joke. And far too late.

Again with the "tons" reference. Let's see, a ton is 2000 pounds. Are you saying four or five really fat bass players prefer VdGG? I would suggest, from a pure "tonnage" aspect, more musicians prefer Floyd by weight. Yeah, Phil Collins is a virtual paragon of musical integrity. Sing me Su-su-sudio.

Look, you trot out the same tired statistics and quotes, and then act like I should be impressed by a band managing to fill a 1500 seat hall. I've seen local bands that can do that. Who cares? You really love VdGG. I mean, it's almost a creepy, stalking kind of love that would have a girl seeking a restraining order. But hey, to each his own.

I've seen hundreds of concerts in my life by every band from Alice Cooper to Frank Zappa. I've never seen a better show than a Pink Floyd concert (and Floyd isn't even my favorite band). Sorry if that doesn't fit in with your little clique, but I don't smoke clove cigarettes or wear a beret.

There aren't 70,000 people on the planet who even know who VdGG are. And once they heard them, they would indeed be horrified.

Good one...

Again, I really do like VdGG from a musicianship standpoint. If they could erase the god-awful caterwauling that accompanies it, I would listen more often.

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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...

Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 23:59

rogerthat wrote:

Waters's strained vocals sound like nails to a chalkboard on large parts of Wall. Especially The Trial.

Their fingernail choir will make your chalkboard sing...

I prefer VdGG's fingernails over PF's, they groomed themselves much better, they had to be, in order to be Britian's most fashionable band. And everyone knows that well-formed fingernails make a more pleasing sound on a chalkboard. So VdGG for me.

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I love dogs, I've always loved dogs

Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: June 22 2012 at 00:17

-Radioswim- wrote:

I wouldn't consider them medicre, but I still to this day (and probably never will) understand Pink Floyd's absolutely massive commercial appeal.

VDGG is the clear winner for me though.

Guys, I'd like to make you aware of the fact that the Barret's Floyds are recognized to have influenced VdGG. The big difference is that VdGG, King Crimson and few others have been the first in detaching from the Summer of Love and the flower power optimism to dig into darker environments,

But when I read about "commercial appeal" and "boring" I think you have listened to PF starting only from The Final Cut.

Is "Echoes" a mediocre song? Is "Interstellar Overdrive" or "Atom Earth Mother" commercial?

My impression is that you are using the same approach of Johhny Rotten.

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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution

Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: June 22 2012 at 01:15

The Dark Elf wrote:

bucka001 wrote:

The Dark Elf wrote:

1) Floyd not prog? No, none of us considered them so in the 70's. Blues rock dressed up with sound fx that burnouts and granola eaters thought was heavy. Very popular, though, no doubt.

What makes VdGG prog? The insipid whining vocals? The fact you can't even hum along to a song, or find a memorable tune? Maybe you can't.

Melody is not a VdGG forte. But the obscurant lyrics are interesting to read.

(but they were big in Italy

If I look at an album like Animals or Wish You Were Here, I think distinctly prog. I don't.

You're wrong.

As far as Genesis, you inferred that their commercial success in the 80s was the reason their earlier albums have sold. That was not the case as I pointed out; ergo, you are misguided.

But truthfully, I think VdGG would've been a great instrumental band. They probably would have sold more albums in Liechtenstein and San Marino without the obnoxious singing.

Rotten is a loudmouth novelty act with safety pins and bad hair. Get off my lawn you punks or I'll call the cops *shakes stick*... don't mess with the Dark Elf!!

Once I saw Iggy and the Stooges and the MC5 in the early 70s, the later punk scene seemed like a joke. And far too late.

There aren't 70,000 people on the planet who even know who VdGG are. And once they heard them, they would indeed be horrified.

Good one...

Again, I really do like VdGG from a musicianship standpoint. If they could erase the god-awful caterwauling that accompanies it, I would listen more often.

Fascinating to witness a frustrated writer who's started up his own blog (as if that weren't a cliche) in his mom's basement, for a reading audience of eight, exert his 'musical knowledge' when his nose is bent out of shape!

-------------
jc

Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: June 22 2012 at 01:17

octopus-4 wrote:

when I read about "commercial appeal" and "boring" I think you have listened to PF starting only from The Final Cut.

Is "Echoes" a mediocre song? Is "Interstellar Overdrive" or "Atom Earth Mother" commercial?

My impression is that you are using the same approach of Johhny Rotten.

I think Floyd is brilliant up to, but not including, DSOTM (but that's just IMO)

-------------
jc

Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: June 22 2012 at 02:57

^ I believe what you are saying is that the Floyd kind of stopped exploring, having those journeys of musical discovery ... right?

Posted By: Ancient Tree
Date Posted: June 22 2012 at 03:04

Pink Floyd will win this poll for sure

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Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: June 22 2012 at 03:12

^ There is no end to this poll ... but ... [shutting my eyes, stretching my arms out] I see ... a tie ... again ... .

Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: June 22 2012 at 03:37

I think that a generic "Versus" will always lead to discussions of this kind and unless you are not comparing Univers Zero and Plastic Bertrand it will often be a tie.

Probably more specific questions would help.

However even if apparently very distant I think that there are many contact points between Pink Floyd and Hammill, if not with VdGG

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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution

Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 22 2012 at 10:18

Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

And everyone knows that well-formed fingernails make a more pleasing sound on a chalkboard.

Eeek. But I do also like Hammill's nails better. He's got the voice to pull off his angry act, while Waters is hit-or-miss imo. Waters loved singing above his register, I think, and that doesn't help matters. I think man for man, VDGG had the better musicians in terms of technical skill, leaving aside that they didn't have a specialist guitarist, but I remember their sound well rather than their compositions which are rather rambling affairs to my ears.

Posted By: crimhead
Date Posted: June 22 2012 at 19:44

PF for me. Nuff said. I like VDGG as well.

Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: June 22 2012 at 19:49

Graaf were fun. They had some complexity and strong composition. Floyd were limited to the slower paced mellow stuff. Graaf for sure. floyd just got a bit boring in the mid 70s. Dark side and Wish you were here have 15-20 minutes each of boringish compositions

Posted By: -Radioswim-
Date Posted: June 22 2012 at 20:19

octopus-4 wrote:

-Radioswim- wrote:

I wouldn't consider them medicre, but I still to this day (and probably never will) understand Pink Floyd's absolutely massive commercial appeal.

VDGG is the clear winner for me though.

But when I read about "commercial appeal" and "boring" I think you have listened to PF starting only from The Final Cut.

Is "Echoes" a mediocre song? Is "Interstellar Overdrive" or "Atom Earth Mother" commercial?

My impression is that you are using the same approach of Johhny Rotten.

I would never consider Echoes a mediocre song, nor would I consider it commercial but from my own experiances is somehow still marketable in the mainstream of music, hell Echoes was a feature on one of pink floyd's best selling compilation records... entitled "Echoes" go figure.

I realize a few of my friends don't represent the mainstream of music, but they certainley seem to emulate atleast a small demographic of floyd/pop-rock fans. Said friends, enjoy songs such as Echoes, but wouldn't know what progressive rock is even after I've explained and demonstrated what it is to them.

On another note, I feel like this has simply become a popularity contest...

oh and by the way, I own every single Pink Floyd studio album up to and including Division bell, and I love them.

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Dust in the Kitchen

Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: June 22 2012 at 20:40

bucka001 wrote:

Speaking of cliché, the last refuge of the the wretched internet masterdebater is to use the hackneyed "mother's basement" line when his/her/its banal arguments are no longer cogent or even valid. That was a real knee-slapper back when PCs ran on DOS.

Tell me again (for the hundredth time) of that one glorious moment back in the bowels of the 1970s when VdGG actually appeared on a magazine cover (must've been a surgeon's periodical because I believe you said it concerned "hip replacements"). What is truly fascinating is that in every discussion concerning VdGG you trot out the same dead horse factoids once destined for the glue factory, but you keep ressurrecting their moldering carcasses in the vain effort to somehow prove that VdGG was not just another middling band that imploded because no one gave a damn for them, Except, of course, in Italy.

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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...

Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 22 2012 at 22:19

-Radioswim- wrote:

Echoes is marketable in spite of its length because it is genius. Yes, that necessarily means I am saying VDGG is not genius. A very good band, certainly, but I cannot hear any genius in their compositions...of course, that's just my opinion (then again, I don't know of a factual way to determine genius in music, so it's self evident). First Beatles and then Floyd grasped much better than many other bands what the role of household or everyday sounds in the environment could be in music. Not only VDGG, but even Genesis or Yes for that matter were slow to grasp the importance of this; it just helps communicate music in a language people understand. These sounds establish a context effectively rather than expecting a listener to patiently put together the mathematical relation between notes and then appreciating it in a roundabout way. Fripp's work with the Wetton lineup also suggests that he had begun to emphasise texture in music and maybe his disapproval of contemporaneous directions in rock stemmed from a feeling that they were still doing it the 'old way'. Maybe, I don't know, that is just conjecture.

At any rate, relating everyday sounds to music without sounding awkward is easier said than done and that is why there are still only very few bands that do it well and mostly they succeed in winning acclaim and recognition. That is what Radiohead also did and once again, people that are too busy looking for notes rather than taking in the sounds don't get them; er, don't get why Dream Theater aren't so popular in spite of their uber talent and all that.

Posted By: NickHall
Date Posted: June 23 2012 at 02:26

I like and respect VDGG but they can be obtuse at times, Floyd's pop tunes keep them on track more of the time.

Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: June 23 2012 at 02:36

Floyd,

+better idears, evolve more, sound a lot better, more fun.

- from WYWH they stagnate even tough they do it on a pretty good level.

VDGG

+ More experimental instrumentation

- They dont seem to evolve much.

My Vote Floyd

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Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours

Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: June 23 2012 at 03:06

Floyd. VdGG has a nice groove sometimes, but I don't find a lot they do that's truly interesting, except playing two saxes at once.

Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: June 23 2012 at 08:49

Waters or Hammill lyrically?

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Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.

Posted By: refugee
Date Posted: June 23 2012 at 10:45

Gandalff wrote:

Pink Floyd had much memorable melodies, how many VdGG's ones anyone can able to sing?

43 songs (including many more melodies, of course). I just checked.

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He say nothing is quite what it seems;
I say nothing is nothing
(Peter Hammill)

Posted By: wjohnd
Date Posted: June 23 2012 at 11:22

yanch wrote:

Pink Floyd. In know VdGG is very popular and well respected, but they just don't do it for me.

Much the same for me. I
Animals is one of my top 10 albums/ desert island discs but despite several goes over many years vdgg have just never clicked.

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