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moshkito 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
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Points: 17510
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 Posted: June 18 2012 at 13:32 |
 CordofLifeA11 wrote:
Peter Hammill. I understand from a philosophical perspective, that a lyricist can only write 'poetry' from his own experience, but I swear this is all that Peter does! He talks all the time, and never about in anything in particular. In this respect, I have to say he's so unrelatable in what he says, other than by intangible emotions, and such. |
Thanks ... I am not sure that you/we/I can compare Peter's vocals to almost all of these mentioned here, which are ... for all intents and purposes, just pop music! There are very few examples in these mentioned in this whole post that deserve the mention as "literature" or "poetry" ... and treated as such. They are just "lyrics" ... and rock music "lyrics" at that, which means that are even less meaningful! In general, quoting Ayn Rand, is no different than JP Sartre, of Novalis, or Schopenhauer or Bertrand Russell! But we think that Peart is great because he quotes her! Woooppppeeeeedooooooo! Lots of folks have even quoted Chairman Mao! How about Hitler? ... But if we're serious about lyrics, probably the best, and the one that so many people can not relate to ... and sometimes hate, is probably the best poet and rock lyricist of all time ... Jim Morrison! ... love him or hate him, but to this day ... you will never know about ... whip the horse's eye ... or you can not petition the Lord with prayer ... or when the music is over ... if you don't know what poetry is all about and how it hits you ... you will always think that words are important ... and in the end, it's not the words themselves ... it's the depth of the feeling behind it that curldles your blood and wits to smithreens!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13627
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Posted: June 18 2012 at 12:24 |
Difficult one, really.
Jon Anderson's lyrics were never meant to be taken literally. They were poetic pieces which quite often were written to fit the music, as Squire has mentioned more than once.
I always liked Ian Anderson's lyrics, because of his sharp wit and sense of self parody.
I liked Peart's lyrics in the 1970's, but I can understand why people might think of them being a little bit "of their time" all these years later.
My nomination would be a prog related one. Ian Gillan. Whilst I love Deep Purple, and have done since about 1974/75, some of those lyrics really do sound ridiculous these days. As examples Strange Kind of Women, My Woman From Tokyo, & etc. Fine songs, but misogynistic in the extreme.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
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Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
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Posted: June 18 2012 at 12:12 |
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^All good to me.
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
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Posted: June 18 2012 at 11:59 |
HarbouringTheSoul wrote:
kevin4peace wrote:
There are some classic songs and King Crimson is one of my favourite bands, but theres no denying that Sinfield could go a bit over board sometimes. |
Haha yes, "stake a lizard by the throat" and such. 
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+1 on Sinfield. Some sexist implications and open statements bug me on some really good tracks:
"All you know of the girls of the road, Oh, like apples we stole in our youth."
"I smiled and just unzipped her". 
... 
Edited by Dayvenkirq - June 18 2012 at 12:00
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HarbouringTheSoul
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 21 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 1199
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Posted: June 18 2012 at 11:57 |
Ambient Hurricanes wrote:
HarbouringTheSoul wrote:
Those are some good points, but I think the problem isn't so much that he's being "self-consciously intelligent", but rather that his lyrics try to be intelligent but really aren't. The best explanation I've seen of what's wrong with Peart's lyrics is by John McFerrin:
John McFerrin wrote:
A lot of rock lyricists choose to
write about "shallow" things in a dumb way; a lot of great lyricists
write about "shallow" things in an intelligent way; a select few have
the ability to write about "deep" things in an intelligent way. Simply
put, Neil Peart routinely committed the cardinal sin of writing about
"deep" things in some of the dumbest ways imaginable. [...] a lot of
his lyrics read as Western Philosophy and the Human Condition for Dummies [...] Too often, even in a lot of songs where I like his lyrics, I feel like I'm listening to the poetry of a high school Freshman who just bought The Dictionary of Cultural Literacy
and a thesaurus [...] |
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I see how you could say this about Peart's early lyrics, but I can't understand how this would describe the majority of his work from the 80's and on. I can name a few songs that I feel this way about (Freewill and Bravest Face to name a couple) but I think that, by and large, most of his post-70's lyrics are quite insightful, such as Limelight, Distant Early Warning, Open Secrets, Cold Fire, War Paint, Scars (especially Scars), Halo Effect, How it Is... |
Actually, I absolutely agree with you. My problems are almost exclusively with his 70s output. His lyrics from the 80s onward don't always make for the greatest poetry, but for the most part he stopped writing about topics that make him look like a fool.
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Anthony H.
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 11 2010
Location: Virginia
Status: Offline
Points: 6088
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Posted: June 18 2012 at 11:45 |
Horizons wrote:
Steven Wilson. |
I loathe Wilson's lyrics. I like him as a musician and vocalist, but his lyrics are so overly-dramatic and literal. It works sometimes ("Time Flies", "Trains", "Prodigal"). But for the most part, it's awful: This is a hate song just meant for you I thought that I'd write it down while I still could I hope when you hear this you'll want to sue - "Hatesong" I'm the one you always seem to read about The fire inside my eyes has long gone out There's nothing left for me to say or do 'Cause all that matters disappeared when I lost you... - "Postcard" For the most part, though, bad lyrics don't bother me very much. For me, lyrics can only add to music, not detract from it. Unless the music is lyrically-driven, which almost no prog is.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
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Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
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Posted: June 18 2012 at 11:35 |
Jim Garten wrote:
La Villa Strangiato
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And what lyrics did he write for that? 
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Jim Garten
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin & Razor Guru
Joined: February 02 2004
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Posted: June 18 2012 at 11:28 |
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Pretty obvious Peart would be one of the most discussed subjects of this thread (Anderson too, to an extent), but I do find some of Peart's lyrics can work outside a musical context - not sure I'd call them poetry as such, but...
A few examples (for me at least):
The Camera Eye
Spirit Of Radio
A Farewell To Kings
La Villa Strangiato
Subdivisions
Just a few out of a 38 year canon, but these are the first ones which briefly spring to mind
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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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CordofLifeA11
Forum Newbie
Joined: June 18 2012
Location: Iowa
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Points: 4
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Posted: June 18 2012 at 11:23 |
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Peter Hammill. I understand from a philosophical perspective, that a lyricist can only write 'poetry' from his own experience, but I swear this is all that Peter does! He talks all the time, and never about in anything in particular. In this respect, I have to say he's so unrelatable in what he says, other than by intangible emotions, and such.
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Ambient Hurricanes
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 25 2011
Location: internet
Status: Offline
Points: 2549
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Posted: June 18 2012 at 11:12 |
HarbouringTheSoul wrote:
Those are some good points, but I think the problem isn't so much that he's being "self-consciously intelligent", but rather that his lyrics try to be intelligent but really aren't. The best explanation I've seen of what's wrong with Peart's lyrics is by John McFerrin:
John McFerrin wrote:
A lot of rock lyricists choose to
write about "shallow" things in a dumb way; a lot of great lyricists
write about "shallow" things in an intelligent way; a select few have
the ability to write about "deep" things in an intelligent way. Simply
put, Neil Peart routinely committed the cardinal sin of writing about
"deep" things in some of the dumbest ways imaginable. [...] a lot of
his lyrics read as Western Philosophy and the Human Condition for Dummies [...] Too often, even in a lot of songs where I like his lyrics, I feel like I'm listening to the poetry of a high school Freshman who just bought The Dictionary of Cultural Literacy
and a thesaurus [...] |
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I see how you could say this about Peart's early lyrics, but I can't understand how this would describe the majority of his work from the 80's and on. I can name a few songs that I feel this way about (Freewill and Bravest Face to name a couple) but I think that, by and large, most of his post-70's lyrics are quite insightful, such as Limelight, Distant Early Warning, Open Secrets, Cold Fire, War Paint, Scars (especially Scars), Halo Effect, How it Is...
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I love dogs, I've always loved dogs
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Manuel
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 09 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 13351
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Posted: June 18 2012 at 11:06 |
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I would pick Ian Anderson, especially in the early years, with his views on religion and British society. in the later years he change a little, not his way of thinking, but the way he expresses his opinions.
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Snow Dog
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Joined: March 23 2005
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Posted: June 18 2012 at 09:50 |
Blacksword wrote:
Textbook wrote:
Horizons: Really? I don't think I've ever seen people argue over his lyrics, not passionately at least.
SD: Good pick except I think there is a bit of a consensus that he's a bit naff. "How could he lose six million jews etc" must just be about the most derided prog lyric ever. |
Yeah, that line in 'The only way' (is that what it's called?) is awful. I could feel my toes curl the first time I heard it. Lakes vocal is really bad on that song too, which doesn't help. |
I disagree on both counts. I love the line and his vocals a superb.
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HarbouringTheSoul
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 21 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 1199
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Posted: June 18 2012 at 09:50 |
kevin4peace wrote:
There are some classic songs and King Crimson is one of my favourite bands, but theres no denying that Sinfield could go a bit over board sometimes. |
Haha yes, "stake a lizard by the throat" and such.
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kevin4peace
Forum Groupie
Joined: January 01 2011
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 98
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Posted: June 18 2012 at 09:22 |
I can't believe no one has mentioned Sinfield yet. Some of the early Crimson lyrics are ridiculous:
Go Polonius or kneel
The reapers name their harvest dawn
All your tarnished devil's spoons
Will rust beneath our corn.
There are some classic songs and King Crimson is one of my favourite bands, but theres no denying that Sinfield could go a bit over board sometimes.
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Nothing to say here. Nothing at all. Nothing is easy.
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: June 18 2012 at 07:54 |
Textbook wrote:
Blacksword: Peart's lyrics do look terrible written down, but I don't count that because he's not a poet, he's a lyricist. He's allowed to hide behind Lee's vocal delivery in the context of them being *songs*. Some things sound fine when sung but silly when read and vice versa. There are lyricists who manage lyrics so good you can read them but anyone who thinks that's a minimum standard is being unreasonable. |
Yes, I know what you mean, but I always thought the lyrics to Spirit of Radio were good, both sung and read. The section about 'glittering prizes and endless compromises' passes as both lyrics, and arguably poetry..of a sort.. 
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: June 18 2012 at 07:50 |
Textbook wrote:
Horizons: Really? I don't think I've ever seen people argue over his lyrics, not passionately at least.
SD: Good pick except I think there is a bit of a consensus that he's a bit naff. "How could he lose six million jews etc" must just be about the most derided prog lyric ever. |
Yeah, that line in 'The only way' (is that what it's called?) is awful. I could feel my toes curl the first time I heard it. Lakes vocal is really bad on that song too, which doesn't help.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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HarbouringTheSoul
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 21 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 1199
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Posted: June 18 2012 at 07:38 |
Textbook wrote:
And people going "Peart is a terrible bore, using songs to badly paraphrase various books he has read, clumsy turns of phrase wading in bathos as he reaches for great profundity but instead is either just talking common sense or being incredibly condescending. He spends so much time being self-consciously intelligent, he forgets to make things listenable." |
Those are some good points, but I think the problem isn't so much that he's being "self-consciously intelligent", but rather that his lyrics try to be intelligent but really aren't. The best explanation I've seen of what's wrong with Peart's lyrics is by John McFerrin:
John McFerrin wrote:
A lot of rock lyricists choose to
write about "shallow" things in a dumb way; a lot of great lyricists
write about "shallow" things in an intelligent way; a select few have
the ability to write about "deep" things in an intelligent way. Simply
put, Neil Peart routinely committed the cardinal sin of writing about
"deep" things in some of the dumbest ways imaginable. [...] a lot of
his lyrics read as Western Philosophy and the Human Condition for Dummies [...] Too often, even in a lot of songs where I like his lyrics, I feel like I'm listening to the poetry of a high school Freshman who just bought The Dictionary of Cultural Literacy
and a thesaurus [...] |
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Hercules
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 14 2007
Location: Near York UK
Status: Offline
Points: 7024
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Posted: June 18 2012 at 07:20 |
I generally rather like Peart's lyrics, but don't particularly agree with his occasional right wing, libertarian messages.
Jon Anderson and Peter Nicholls both write amazing lyrics to fit the context of the song, but they are usually absolute nonsense out of it.
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A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
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Posted: June 18 2012 at 07:16 |
That is really terrible. Still, doesn't change the fact that people don't seem to argue about his lyrics, though perhaps they should.
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Jim Garten
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Joined: February 02 2004
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Posted: June 18 2012 at 07:14 |
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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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