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Epignosis View Drop Down
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 17:59
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:


If your point is that the tastes of PA people are different to those of people from other websites, that's fair enough. SmileAnd I think it's also fair to say that prog fans' tastes are a bit eccentric when compared to "normal" tastes, so there shouldn't really be any surprises about this.


Well, I'm sorry if I ticked anyone off.  But I do think it is a little ridiculous that a member is trying to get another member's review removed because he isn't a good enough creative writer.  It's tough to review an album, after all the great Frank Zappa himself said "writing about music is like dancing about architecture."


Maybe Zappa was a lousy writer who wouldn't do a good job?

The review in question said almost nothing about the album and insulted other reviewers and whined about the rating other reviewers gave it.  I don't see why that review should stay because it isn't a review of the album in any sense that satisfies 100 words.  It adds nothing to the value of this site or community. 

So that has nothing to do with creativity- it has everything to do with being a crybaby.
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


I have started to try to review albums, but I never took creative writing - I'm a computer programmer who grew up in a musical family and played piano and sang in chorale.  So I think my opinions on the subject of music count for something and should be given the 10 points...but I don't know what to say about an album other than "I liked it" or "I didn't like it." 


That's a start though!  Identify what aspects of an album stand out for you (either good or bad).  Comment on melody, structure, dynamics, etc- whatever you think is worth commenting on.  You can also draw comparison to similar bands or albums to provide a frame of reference.  Remember that the ultimate purpose of the review is to either recommend it or not recommend the album to others.

Perhaps if you began writing some reviews, you could get your Progressive Metal friends to check out your reviews.
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Triceratopsoil View Drop Down
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Points: 18016 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 18:01
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

  It's tough to review an album, after all the great Frank Zappa himself said "writing about music is like dancing about architecture."


Maybe Zappa was a lousy writer who wouldn't do a good job?



I always thought he meant it was rather pointless
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 18:07
Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

  It's tough to review an album, after all the great Frank Zappa himself said "writing about music is like dancing about architecture."


Maybe Zappa was a lousy writer who wouldn't do a good job?



I always thought he meant it was rather pointless


In that case, he's just wrong.  People who have written about music have encouraged me to buy or bypass it.
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Points: 22774 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 18:07
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

 
I have started to try to review albums, but I never took creative writing - I'm a computer programmer who grew up in a musical family and played piano and sang in chorale.  So I think my opinions on the subject of music count for something and should be given the 10 points...but I don't know what to say about an album other than "I liked it" or "I didn't like it." 

Man, reviewing albums is kind of hard for me. My first reviews were awful, and only improved in quality very slowly, but you eventually get an idea of how you want your reviews to be like. Now, I'm comfortable with them. You should go ahead and write your bad reviews and you'll get better as you review more often.This, however, will make the process of becoming a Prog Reviewer way more difficult, if you have that aspiration at all.


Anyway, I have no idea what you were talking about but I thought I should try to inspire you. I assume this thread is probably a sh*tstorm of sorts, as are most threads.


Edited by colorofmoney91 - April 29 2012 at 18:09
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Points: 16913 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 18:13
Ya know, this tired old cliche shows the OP has no clue...

1) you have to review albums to really have your vote count, and it has to be 100 words or more.
So basically...you're rewarding the dudes who live in their mother's basements and have no life

The vast majority of the collabs on this site have careers and/or wives and/or children, and yes, interesting lives.  We have doctors, teachers, engineers, admin professionals, musicians....a wide spectrum of people from all over the world.  They donate their time here for something they enjoy.  Drop the attitude and people would actually be happy to welcome you.  
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Points: 18016 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 18:22
I don't think he realizes how short 100 words is.  He's posted like 2000 words in this thread, today, alone.
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Points: 16913 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 18:28
^LOL
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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 18:48
Oh crap. What a pile of dog pooh this has turned into. If I had known this was going to be a whinefest for how hard done by Dream Theatre is on this site or a lame excuse to insult the people who enjoy coming here to rate, review and collaborate I honestly would not have bothered. Unhappy
 
I know what a Facebook "like" is you facetiously patronising person (hey, you started chucking the insults around, not me) - said I didn't know how to look them up, and you still haven't enlightened me on that issue - sure I can go to the band's facebook page and see the number of likes they have in total - that's not what you asked me to do and not what I asked you to demonstrate. How do I look up Facebook "likes" for all the artists represented in the Top 100? and how do I see the number of "likes" for each effin' album, including Dream Theatre's latest? Or their best (Metropolis Part 2: Scenes From A Memory)? Or their worse (no comment, I don't think any of their albums suck, though I will admit Octavarium bores me to tears, but that's not Dream Theatre's fault)? So how do I play Facebook Top Trumps?
 
Dream Theatre have sold over 12 million albums - 2.5 million "likes" is kind of what I'd expect (well, it's a bit light really, but never mind) ... Pink Floyd 18 million "likes" (yeah! I win Top Trumps!)... Yes - no official page ... Genesis - no official page ... Jethro Tull - no official page ... Rush - no official page .... It seems like Facebook doesn't quite reflect the demographic that is interested in Prog Archives and therefore not stunningly representative of reality, in reality. hmmm...16 million people "like" Guns'n'Roses - how did we miss them from our charts?
 
Facebook "likes" are a representation of what the people who have Facebook pages like, (it does what it says on the tin - see Ronseal reference below), including the 19 million people who "like" Pringles and the (same/different) 19 million people who "like" McDonald's - for crying out loud. One million more people feel the need to "like" reconstituted baked potato starch baked into a saddle shape than "like" Pink Floyd on a social networking site for the socially inept. (hey, that's our job!)
 
My heart weeps buckets for all those thousands of bands that people cannot be bothered to "like" at all, or haven't accumulated as many "like" as Ronseal "Does Exactly What It Says On The Tin" Wood Varnish. Please bring me some more freaking reality, I can always find 156,693 more on Facebook. More people like Stannah Stairlifts (your granny perhaps? mine's dead - my mum is dead too, and she never had stairs - no "upstairs" in a bungalow, [or basement come to that], so no need for stairlifts there, or Facebook, unless there is an Ouijabook) than like Discipline - looks like our reviewers don't know a decent Prog album from an electrically assisted stair-climbing aid for old folk, shame on them listening to Prog Rock instead of carrying their poor old grannies up stairs.
 
Facebook "likes" are binary - you like something or you don't - there is no quantitative measure - according to Facebook I "like" everything equally, and obviously I don't. Facebook just records that I a) saw the "like" link and b) liked it enough to click on it, and the tally of all those other people who also clicked on that "like" is merely the count of all the people who a) saw the "like" link and b) liked it enough to click on it - that's all - nothing more than that - it is not a measure of "goodness", it doesn't tell you what track three sounds like or whether the guitar solo is the sweetest you'll ever hear. All it says is that 2.5 million people who saw a link clicked it - that those people know what a Dream Theatre is and had the motivation to click a link- sure it's all nice and egalitarian - all those "likes" are equal - from the die-hard trufan whose owned every album, single and DVD and seen every tour through to the kid who saw the names scrawled in Sharpie his sister's boyfriend's school bag but hasn't actually heard them but wants to look cool and trendy to his 'friends' who also have Facebook who have "liked" those noisy metal bands like Slipknot and Linkin Park though he'd much rather listen to his mum's Adele CD in the car on the way to school but he got beaten up last time he said that.
 
All those "likes" are equal and fair because they are not judgemental or biased by such unquantifiable fripperies as "they're a good band but is this album really any good?", or "Yeah, it's a good Metal album but it's not really a Prog album is it?"... And that last point is a salient point when it comes to this web site and why we are not facebook or rate-your-musac - I were to review For Lies I Sire (48,157 Farcebook "likes" for My Dying Bride - I'll call that a healthy result) here I'd give it 3-stars because it's good but not essential Prog Metal album, but on Metal Music Archives I'd give it 4-stars because it is an excellent Doom Metal album. You may choose to disagree with that philosophy and argue that if it is a 4-star album on MMA then it should be a 4-star album on the PA, and you are free to use your own philosophy when rating albums here, as does every one (in reality), but in all honesty I cannot rate an album on a Progressive Rock site without judging its "progressive" quality in comparison to other progressive metal albums. Facebooks non-judgemental, unbiased, egalitarianism doesn't tell you anything, it's not even a popularity contest because there is no distinction between "liking" Dream Theatre and "liking" Nightwish - your 'vote' is equal for both of them but the extra 300,000 people who "liked" Nightwish more does not reflect your actual views of both bands, or the public reality of whether one Roadrunner band is better than another Roadrunner band given that they are both promoted by Roadrunner equally (Slipknot for the Roadrunner Top Trumps win if you are playing along at home).
 
Facebook "Likes" are no more a reflection of reality than the number of telephone votes on Your-Country's Got Talent for some talentless blob of lard who sold the public a hard-luck story while wailing a tuneless off-key poorly dictioned lounge ballad is a reflection of talent.
 
 
 
 
Seriously Geoff, these aren't the droids you're looking for.  
What?
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Points: 6446 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 19:08
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


So basically...you're rewarding the dudes who live in their mother's basements and have no life. 
 
LOL
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Points: 14258 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 19:12
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Dean,
I hear your arguments, and admit I had some misconceptions.  However, hear me out here: think about your system. 
1) you have to review albums to really have your vote count, and it has to be 100 words or more.
So basically...you're rewarding the dudes who live in their mother's basements and have no life.  Seriously, I have known about this website since the early 2000's, but never bothered to join until a little over a year ago, and then only to rate albums.  Then I didn't really start to post in this forum until later on.  Only recently did I start to review albums, and since I have a job and a family (and a wife who rolls her eyes and says "you're on that stupid site AGAIN?!!" every time she see's me posting on here) I only bother to review the albums that I think deserve to have a voice, so basically, I'm not going to bother reviewing a mediocre or bad album unless they're way up on the chart to begin with.  And I would guess that's how most people out there are.  Most people just don't have the time to write a review.  So you're skewing the system to the people who have way to much time on their hands.
2) In order to become a collaborator, you have to review albums from many subgenres.
I would argue that this means the only people you award "collaborator" status to are people who aren't really experts in any sub-genre.  Because honestly, there are sub-genre's on this site that I would even argue shouldn't be on this site to begin with.  And other sub-genres I just don't have any interest in - I've tried, but they just aren't for me.  So I'm only going to be reviewing in a few certain sub-genres.  And that means I'll probably never be a collaborator.  But whatever, it's just a website.
3) The fact that you don't even know what a Facebook "like" is further proves my point that this site doesn't match reality.  Ok, so bands create pages on Facebook (an IMMENSELY popular social networking site that reaches out to all ages and classes - my GRANDMOTHER is even on facebook.  That's huge.  My grandmother doesn't know how to plug a mouse into a computer.  My Dad had to show her that one.).  People "like" a band's Facebook page because they want to show other people that they like them, and also because they want to see the news related to this band.  So it's a fairly good way to measure one band's popularity against another.  Ok, so what's the number 1 spot for 2011?  Discipline:
http://www.facebook.com/DisciplineBand
790 likes.  That's meagre.  Now, where's Dream Theater's latest album on this list?  18th place.  Lets see how many likes they have:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Dream-Theater/7677942180
Wha?  2.5 MILLION?!!!!!  And they are 18th place?  How is this possible?  Hmm...I'm going to say it's because people who like Progressive Metal find this site to be snobbish and pretentious....  Wink
Seriously, I say this not because it's just my opinion, but because I also hang out in a lot of Progressive Metal circles and I've told people about this site and encouraged them to try to make their voices heard, and that is the reaction I most often get from them - they can't be bothered to get on this site because they feel that it's just a bunch of pretentious snobs.  You don't like to hear that, and I get it.  But do you honestly believe in the real world that Discipline deserves a higher spot on the top 100 list than any other album on that list for the year?  Not to say they are a bad band - they're great.  But there are MANY other releases for 2011 that deserve to be higher, and when you stack up the number of Facebook likes for these bands it just doesn't add up.


I take exception to your inane responses here. They are illogical, uninformed and have no basis in fact. Lets explore these briefly here.


1. You say: "So basically...you're rewarding the dudes who live in their mother's basements and have no life.  Seriously, I have known about this website since the early 2000's, but never bothered to join until a little over a year ago, and then only to rate albums." For a start I am married with 3 kids, an English and relief school teacher who works many hours. I review albums as a form of RECREATION and RELAX time after work or on weekends. That is my business. It is not up to you to generalise in such an arrogant and uninformed manner. You are in error to assume in this way and when you ASSUME you make an ASS of U and ME.

2.    You say "the only people you award "collaborator" status to are people who aren't really experts in any sub-genre.  Because honestly, there are sub-genre's on this site that I would even argue shouldn't be on this site to begin with." When I began reviewing I was focussing on albums I had interest in which just happened to be Symphonic prog. This was acknowledged and recognised by admins here who INVITED me to be a Reviewer and later on to join the Symphonic Prog team. It was not as if I was requesting this but it was a labour of love to review the albums. I enjoyed doing it and I guess the enthusiasm is noticed when people have a passion for something. I heard somewhere if you have a fiery passion for something, people will come from everywhere to watch you burn. What is wrong with showing enthusiasm? I do not need to know about Indo Raga sub genre to enjoy prog. If it comes to a specific style of prog so be it. The sub genres are here precisely because Prog encapsulates a plethora of styles that all have validity within the umbrella term of Prog. I for one am delighted/glad that so many sub genres are available because music is a complex and varied medium that should not be constricted by barriers or boundaries. If we put Prog in a box we stifle what is great about the form of music. We confine the creative power of Prog and that is an unforgivable crime here.    

3. Facebook has nothing to do with Progarchives. The two sites are from different worlds and are as far removed from one another as Planet Mars is from Neptune.

4. You say: "they can't be bothered to get on this site because they feel that it's just a bunch of pretentious snobs.  You don't like to hear that, and I get it.  But do you honestly believe in the real world that Discipline deserves a higher spot on the top 100 list than any other album on that list for the year?  Not to say they are a bad band - they're great.  But there are MANY other releases for 2011 that deserve to be higher, and when you stack up the number of Facebook likes for these bands it just doesn't add up."

Prog metal is a popular genre by itself - many into it would not even recognise it as prog metal - some proggers go as far as believing metal is not prog at all. I think it has a place like all other forms of prog. I have no problems listening to Dream Theater after hearing Pink Floyd or Camel. Or awarding Haken's new album 5 stars along with the 5 star effort of Steven Wilson. It is a matter of taste and what appeals. There is no text book description as to what constitutes a great album. After all it is music to be enjoyed for those who want to indulge. For others, just go off to the other metal sites and enjoy your time there. 

In closing, rather than put such a great site down as Progarchives, that is run well by sincere passionate people who care about the genre, it would be well advised to take your grievances to other places as you obviously are not enjoying your time here. In my opinion what is the sense of hanging around a site where you disagree with all that makes this site great in the first place. That is one reason I do not hang around the forums of our sister site MetalArchives. I simply do not enjoy the experience so I do not waste my time there, though I will review the albums occasionally. I also do not feel it in my best interests or anyone else's to challenge others perceptions of music or to rile them up by making inappropriate comments about their taste in music. I do not like black metal but I am not going to visit the black metal sites and tell them that Emperor or Dark Throne are a load of crud, I simply stay out! And I feel all the better for it.

Surely all this makes sense. So I wish you well in wherever your music tastes take you. Star 
ProgArchives may not be a perfect website, I have yet to find one, but it is a sincere and genuine attempt to present all that is prog to the masses and for those who enjoy it and care about the genre. Peace. ~~~ ACR



Edited by AtomicCrimsonRush - April 29 2012 at 19:31
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Points: 14258 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 19:50
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:


If your point is that the tastes of PA people are different to those of people from other websites, that's fair enough. SmileAnd I think it's also fair to say that prog fans' tastes are a bit eccentric when compared to "normal" tastes, so there shouldn't really be any surprises about this.


Well, I'm sorry if I ticked anyone off.  But I do think it is a little ridiculous that a member is trying to get another member's review removed because he isn't a good enough creative writer.  It's tough to review an album, after all the great Frank Zappa himself said "writing about music is like dancing about architecture."  I have started to try to review albums, but I never took creative writing - I'm a computer programmer who grew up in a musical family and played piano and sang in chorale.  So I think my opinions on the subject of music count for something and should be given the 10 points...but I don't know what to say about an album other than "I liked it" or "I didn't like it."  And the point I'm trying to make about pretentiousness comes from a background of trying to get people in the Progressive Metal scene to come on this site and rate albums.  I know there are Progressive Metal bands that ought to be higher on those lists.  But I don't think the general Progressive Metal crowd likes to hang out here.  One person told me they wouldn't bother to even click the star rating on this site because it was a waste of time as this is a community of pretentious snobs.  I've tried to analyze why that would be and my thought was that it might have to do with the way this site gives more weight to some ratings over others, and thought maybe that was skewing things.  But maybe it's just that Progressive Metal fans see that there aren't many other Progressive Metal fans on this site to begin with, and decide this place isn't for them.  I'm going to stick around, stubborn as I am, and maybe that will start to change.


Ok I want to respond to this one because you are saying "I have started to try to review albums, but I never took creative writing - I'm a computer programmer who grew up in a musical family and played piano and sang in chorale.  So I think my opinions on the subject of music count for something and should be given the 10 points...but I don't know what to say about an album other than "I liked it" or "I didn't like it." 

This can be remedied if you are struggling with how to review an album. Heres a case in point

It is my first review here (I was very wet behind the ears back then and surprise surprise it is a Dream Theater review!) It is certainly not my best but what does it actually say that makes it a review worthy of something, at least not just saying I liked it or I didnt like it and not giving the reader a reason why they may or may not like it?

Here we go, this shouldnt take long.


5 stars My first review here is also one of the great prog MASTERPIECES. Scenes From a Memory is the Magnum Opus of Prog metal legends Dream Theater and I must admit I first heard this on the brilliant live Scenes from New York 3 CD epic. I had become quite used to the way it was played live so it was quite a surprise to hear the variations on this studio recording. The first thing I noticed was the incredible production and how clear the audio is in comparison to the live version. The transitions between songs works exceptionally well and the copncept is stronger with the spoken narrative. The way the CD ends with the 'wake up' call is chilling and is an excellent denouement to the overall story.

Highlights are the wonderful Beyond This Life and the last tracks that blend together in a masterful symphonic multisuite movement.

It is definitely one of the best the band has to offer along with Images and Words, Octavarium and the amazing classic 6 Degrees of inner Turbulence. One of the best prog metal CDs you will ever hear. Deep lyrics, complex time signatures and an encapsulating concept - this is pure bliss and a must if you love progressive metal.

__________________________________________________________________________________________


That was afwulLOL  I have improved thankfully. But lets examine what a review should do.

1st paragraph - okay I state its a MASTERPIECE, the Magnum Opus of DT. ho hum but why do I believe this? I compare it to other DT albums. and state that I had first heard it live on the Scenes from NY Live CD. Ok. Not great so far but interesting I guess. Next:

I mention "the incredible production and how clear the audio is in comparison to the live version". I mention the "transitions between songs works exceptionally well and the copncept is stronger with the spoken narrative." Forget I didn't spell concept properly for a second. At least i am happy I mentioned it was a concept album. "The way the CD ends with the 'wake up' call is chilling and is an excellent denouement to the overall story." Ok I mention a song, important in reviews to let the reader know what songs are worth attention. 

Next paragraph: I mention the highlight songs. Not a bad idea but I didnt go into detail at all. I do that these days but back then I didnt bother but I like reading reviews that mention the highlights. Maybe I could listen to those songs first and if I like them, go for the whole album later.

Last paragraph: Another comparison, this time with Images and Words, Octavarium and 6 Degrees of inner Turbulence. I like all those equally so I mention that. Then I say it is one of "the best prog metal CDs you will ever hear". I state this sweeping generalisation but at least back it up with why, namely the "Deep lyrics, complex time signatures and an encapsulating concept". So if you are into this stuff you will like it is what I am trying to say, though badly at this point in my reviewing career LOL  

I finish with a massive statement "this is pure bliss and a must if you love progressive metal." OKay it is not Shakespeare, but the review tells you 3 things - it is a worthwhile DT album in comparison to others by the band, it tells you some of the highlights, and it tells you the type of music to expect. Really a review is your opinion and why you like the music and what a reader can expect when they hear the album. I think anyone can do it but they just have to follow a system like that. You get better the more you do of course. My shameful review here was a beginning but I enjoy more detail these days and I hope you enjoyed my sincere attempt to show how you can write a basic review. Star ~~ Peace.




Edited by AtomicCrimsonRush - April 29 2012 at 19:54
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 20:17
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Oh crap. What a pile of dog pooh this has turned into. If I had known this was going to be a whinefest for how hard done by Dream Theatre is on this site or a lame excuse to insult the people who enjoy coming here to rate, review and collaborate I honestly would not have bothered. Unhappy
 
I know what a Facebook "like" is you facetiously patronising person (hey, you started chucking the insults around, not me) - said I didn't know how to look them up, and you still haven't enlightened me on that issue - sure I can go to the band's facebook page and see the number of likes they have in total - that's not what you asked me to do and not what I asked you to demonstrate. How do I look up Facebook "likes" for all the artists represented in the Top 100? and how do I see the number of "likes" for each effin' album, including Dream Theatre's latest? Or their best (Metropolis Part 2: Scenes From A Memory)? Or their worse (no comment, I don't think any of their albums suck, though I will admit Octavarium bores me to tears, but that's not Dream Theatre's fault)? So how do I play Facebook Top Trumps?
 
Dream Theatre have sold over 12 million albums - 2.5 million "likes" is kind of what I'd expect (well, it's a bit light really, but never mind) ... Pink Floyd 18 million "likes" (yeah! I win Top Trumps!)... Yes - no official page ... Genesis - no official page ... Jethro Tull - no official page ... Rush - no official page .... It seems like Facebook doesn't quite reflect the demographic that is interested in Prog Archives and therefore not stunningly representative of reality, in reality. hmmm...16 million people "like" Guns'n'Roses - how did we miss them from our charts?
 
Facebook "likes" are a representation of what the people who have Facebook pages like, (it does what it says on the tin - see Ronseal reference below), including the 19 million people who "like" Pringles and the (same/different) 19 million people who "like" McDonald's - for crying out loud. One million more people feel the need to "like" reconstituted baked potato starch baked into a saddle shape than "like" Pink Floyd on a social networking site for the socially inept. (hey, that's our job!)
 
My heart weeps buckets for all those thousands of bands that people cannot be bothered to "like" at all, or haven't accumulated as many "like" as Ronseal "Does Exactly What It Says On The Tin" Wood Varnish. Please bring me some more freaking reality, I can always find 156,693 more on Facebook. More people like Stannah Stairlifts (your granny perhaps? mine's dead - my mum is dead too, and she never had stairs - no "upstairs" in a bungalow, [or basement come to that], so no need for stairlifts there, or Facebook, unless there is an Ouijabook) than like Discipline - looks like our reviewers don't know a decent Prog album from an electrically assisted stair-climbing aid for old folk, shame on them listening to Prog Rock instead of carrying their poor old grannies up stairs.
 
Facebook "likes" are binary - you like something or you don't - there is no quantitative measure - according to Facebook I "like" everything equally, and obviously I don't. Facebook just records that I a) saw the "like" link and b) liked it enough to click on it, and the tally of all those other people who also clicked on that "like" is merely the count of all the people who a) saw the "like" link and b) liked it enough to click on it - that's all - nothing more than that - it is not a measure of "goodness", it doesn't tell you what track three sounds like or whether the guitar solo is the sweetest you'll ever hear. All it says is that 2.5 million people who saw a link clicked it - that those people know what a Dream Theatre is and had the motivation to click a link- sure it's all nice and egalitarian - all those "likes" are equal - from the die-hard trufan whose owned every album, single and DVD and seen every tour through to the kid who saw the names scrawled in Sharpie his sister's boyfriend's school bag but hasn't actually heard them but wants to look cool and trendy to his 'friends' who also have Facebook who have "liked" those noisy metal bands like Slipknot and Linkin Park though he'd much rather listen to his mum's Adele CD in the car on the way to school but he got beaten up last time he said that.
 
All those "likes" are equal and fair because they are not judgemental or biased by such unquantifiable fripperies as "they're a good band but is this album really any good?", or "Yeah, it's a good Metal album but it's not really a Prog album is it?"... And that last point is a salient point when it comes to this web site and why we are not facebook or rate-your-musac - I were to review For Lies I Sire (48,157 Farcebook "likes" for My Dying Bride - I'll call that a healthy result) here I'd give it 3-stars because it's good but not essential Prog Metal album, but on Metal Music Archives I'd give it 4-stars because it is an excellent Doom Metal album. You may choose to disagree with that philosophy and argue that if it is a 4-star album on MMA then it should be a 4-star album on the PA, and you are free to use your own philosophy when rating albums here, as does every one (in reality), but in all honesty I cannot rate an album on a Progressive Rock site without judging its "progressive" quality in comparison to other progressive metal albums. Facebooks non-judgemental, unbiased, egalitarianism doesn't tell you anything, it's not even a popularity contest because there is no distinction between "liking" Dream Theatre and "liking" Nightwish - your 'vote' is equal for both of them but the extra 300,000 people who "liked" Nightwish more does not reflect your actual views of both bands, or the public reality of whether one Roadrunner band is better than another Roadrunner band given that they are both promoted by Roadrunner equally (Slipknot for the Roadrunner Top Trumps win if you are playing along at home).
 
Facebook "Likes" are no more a reflection of reality than the number of telephone votes on Your-Country's Got Talent for some talentless blob of lard who sold the public a hard-luck story while wailing a tuneless off-key poorly dictioned lounge ballad is a reflection of talent.
 
 
 
 
Seriously Geoff, these aren't the droids you're looking for.  





http://s9.postimage.org/pqmjrrmgr/images.jpg?noCache=1335755694

See that?  Dean has it.


Edited by Epignosis - April 29 2012 at 22:16
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Points: 3595 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 20:25
Hey, I write awful reviews all the time. 

Here's a fun story about just how much Prog Reviewer means

I've been a part of this site for three years or so. I have a 3-year old son, a full time job, and a wife (basically). I have played the saxophone for 10 years. I'm teaching myself piano, violin, harmonica (whoo!), and how to sing. I am a writer. I've written a 300 page book of interconnected short stories and a 150 page novella about all sorts of stupid philosophical science fiction crap and I am currently in the process of being published. I write music reviews for relaxation. I have several hundred of them (most all of them 100+ words) on here, and more than 1,000 reviews of random albums saved onto my hard drive. In all honesty, it is basically a diary for me. My thousands of pages of album reviews are my diary-with-a-purpose.

My day at work was atrocious. I had to take all these calls and I wanted to stab my throat with a nail, but golly the riffs on Iron Maiden's Brave New World sure are trivial. how many gallops will they repeat before they're dead?! And my manager was complaining about this and that. I couldn't stand it so I tuned it out then Bruce Dickinson pretended to know something about history...

I used to be a Prog Reviewer. I wrote mediocre reviews that I didn't enjoy writing. Then I started writing reviews that I personally loved to write, but they didn't meet the criterion required for their inclusion on the site (virulent vulgarity, asinine humor (or lack thereof), lots of mean-spirited hatred, and a real big load of (unnecessary) honesty). I wonder how many folks remember my review for Iron Maiden's Final Frontier. At that point, I surrendered my Prog Reviewer position. I didn't have to. I chose to forfeit my slightly increased rating weight for the sake of the fact that I like writing about music regardless of whether or not it influence the charts. I could've kept on writing in a manner I detested. I don't always like being informative and I don't always like NOT being informative. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the way 99.9% of the people in this site rate and review albums. I, however, decided that my writing was for myself. Now I don't post reviews at all. I still participate in the forums from time to time, if for no other reason than to have a light conversation with some familiar names, names I can usually trust to offer a thoughtful reply. 

So, speaking from the perspective of a PA member who has been in several different positions (insecure newcomer, excitable upstart, consistent member, full Prog Reviewer, reviled thread troll, obscure side-note, etc.), the charts are only useful at-a-glance. Just like when Rolling Stone magazine says that Kurt Cobain is worth more as a guitarist than David Gilmour. When Rolling Stone magazine says that Pet Sounds is better than Dark Side of the Moon, you read it, you joke about it, then you go on your merry way. I'm only re-iterating what Dean's said and he said it terribly eloquently. The ratings here are skewed and imbalanced - but that is simply because humanity is skewed and imbalanced. It is a matter of perspective. Hey! what a trivially generic way to end a post, huh?!

Oh yeah, I really hate Dream Theater. Tongue
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Points: 14258 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 20:41
^^^ Nice post!
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 21:58
Yes, because Zappa said it, it must be true. 

When will people understand that being a genius (or something close to it) in one art or area of life doesn't automatically give invulnerability to whatever you say? Some of the greatest artists have been some of the worse philosophers or thinkers in history... And some just should have remained doing what they did best, because once they opened their mouths....

By the way, and I'm obviously not one either (used to be kind of one until like 6 years ago) but... Why has nobody jumped to defend the few dudes we might have that actually live in their moms basements and have no life? Maybe if they really have no life they probably listen to A LOT of music and their opinion would then be of special interest.... 

Oh yes and that review is garbage...


Edited by The T - April 29 2012 at 22:19
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Points: 756 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2012 at 23:46
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


I have started to try to review albums, but I never took creative writing - I'm a computer programmer who grew up in a musical family and played piano and sang in chorale.  So I think my opinions on the subject of music count for something and should be given the 10 points...but I don't know what to say about an album other than "I liked it" or "I didn't like it." 


That's a start though!  Identify what aspects of an album stand out for you (either good or bad).  Comment on melody, structure, dynamics, etc- whatever you think is worth commenting on.  You can also draw comparison to similar bands or albums to provide a frame of reference.  Remember that the ultimate purpose of the review is to either recommend it or not recommend the album to others.

Excellent tips. Writing about music is hard, no doubt, but I'd venture a guess that most of the people who write reviews here have never taken creative writing courses- but as with all things, if you pound away at it long enough it gets easier. 

Regarding the topic as a whole, I don't think the list is meant to reflect any kind of "objective" reality, merely the collective opinion of the fanbase here at PA. What weight people assign to that collective opinion is purely up to them. 

My two cents, anyway. Smile
"The meaning of life is to give life meaning."-Arjen Lucassen
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http://s9.postimage.org/pqmjrrmgr/images.jpg?noCache=1335755694

See that?  Dean has it.

I am so pleased Dean has a Trisector holographic Projection! Party
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WOW , so many long posts, id better read this, must be interesting Dead
Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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Though I would just pop in to be irreverent. But really...
My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!
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Points: 10964 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2012 at 01:08
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Oh crap. What a pile of dog pooh this has turned into. If I had known this was going to be a whinefest for how hard done by Dream Theatre is on this site or a lame excuse to insult the people who enjoy coming here to rate, review and collaborate I honestly would not have bothered. Unhappy
 
I know what a Facebook "like" is you facetiously patronising person (hey, you started chucking the insults around, not me) - said I didn't know how to look them up, and you still haven't enlightened me on that issue - sure I can go to the band's facebook page and see the number of likes they have in total - that's not what you asked me to do and not what I asked you to demonstrate. How do I look up Facebook "likes" for all the artists represented in the Top 100? and how do I see the number of "likes" for each effin' album, including Dream Theatre's latest? Or their best (Metropolis Part 2: Scenes From A Memory)? Or their worse (no comment, I don't think any of their albums suck, though I will admit Octavarium bores me to tears, but that's not Dream Theatre's fault)? So how do I play Facebook Top Trumps?
 
Dream Theatre have sold over 12 million albums - 2.5 million "likes" is kind of what I'd expect (well, it's a bit light really, but never mind) ... Pink Floyd 18 million "likes" (yeah! I win Top Trumps!)... Yes - no official page ... Genesis - no official page ... Jethro Tull - no official page ... Rush - no official page .... It seems like Facebook doesn't quite reflect the demographic that is interested in Prog Archives and therefore not stunningly representative of reality, in reality. hmmm...16 million people "like" Guns'n'Roses - how did we miss them from our charts?
 
Facebook "likes" are a representation of what the people who have Facebook pages like, (it does what it says on the tin - see Ronseal reference below), including the 19 million people who "like" Pringles and the (same/different) 19 million people who "like" McDonald's - for crying out loud. One million more people feel the need to "like" reconstituted baked potato starch baked into a saddle shape than "like" Pink Floyd on a social networking site for the socially inept. (hey, that's our job!)
 
My heart weeps buckets for all those thousands of bands that people cannot be bothered to "like" at all, or haven't accumulated as many "like" as Ronseal "Does Exactly What It Says On The Tin" Wood Varnish. Please bring me some more freaking reality, I can always find 156,693 more on Facebook. More people like Stannah Stairlifts (your granny perhaps? mine's dead - my mum is dead too, and she never had stairs - no "upstairs" in a bungalow, [or basement come to that], so no need for stairlifts there, or Facebook, unless there is an Ouijabook) than like Discipline - looks like our reviewers don't know a decent Prog album from an electrically assisted stair-climbing aid for old folk, shame on them listening to Prog Rock instead of carrying their poor old grannies up stairs.
 
Facebook "likes" are binary - you like something or you don't - there is no quantitative measure - according to Facebook I "like" everything equally, and obviously I don't. Facebook just records that I a) saw the "like" link and b) liked it enough to click on it, and the tally of all those other people who also clicked on that "like" is merely the count of all the people who a) saw the "like" link and b) liked it enough to click on it - that's all - nothing more than that - it is not a measure of "goodness", it doesn't tell you what track three sounds like or whether the guitar solo is the sweetest you'll ever hear. All it says is that 2.5 million people who saw a link clicked it - that those people know what a Dream Theatre is and had the motivation to click a link- sure it's all nice and egalitarian - all those "likes" are equal - from the die-hard trufan whose owned every album, single and DVD and seen every tour through to the kid who saw the names scrawled in Sharpie his sister's boyfriend's school bag but hasn't actually heard them but wants to look cool and trendy to his 'friends' who also have Facebook who have "liked" those noisy metal bands like Slipknot and Linkin Park though he'd much rather listen to his mum's Adele CD in the car on the way to school but he got beaten up last time he said that.
 
All those "likes" are equal and fair because they are not judgemental or biased by such unquantifiable fripperies as "they're a good band but is this album really any good?", or "Yeah, it's a good Metal album but it's not really a Prog album is it?"... And that last point is a salient point when it comes to this web site and why we are not facebook or rate-your-musac - I were to review For Lies I Sire (48,157 Farcebook "likes" for My Dying Bride - I'll call that a healthy result) here I'd give it 3-stars because it's good but not essential Prog Metal album, but on Metal Music Archives I'd give it 4-stars because it is an excellent Doom Metal album. You may choose to disagree with that philosophy and argue that if it is a 4-star album on MMA then it should be a 4-star album on the PA, and you are free to use your own philosophy when rating albums here, as does every one (in reality), but in all honesty I cannot rate an album on a Progressive Rock site without judging its "progressive" quality in comparison to other progressive metal albums. Facebooks non-judgemental, unbiased, egalitarianism doesn't tell you anything, it's not even a popularity contest because there is no distinction between "liking" Dream Theatre and "liking" Nightwish - your 'vote' is equal for both of them but the extra 300,000 people who "liked" Nightwish more does not reflect your actual views of both bands, or the public reality of whether one Roadrunner band is better than another Roadrunner band given that they are both promoted by Roadrunner equally (Slipknot for the Roadrunner Top Trumps win if you are playing along at home).
 
Facebook "Likes" are no more a reflection of reality than the number of telephone votes on Your-Country's Got Talent for some talentless blob of lard who sold the public a hard-luck story while wailing a tuneless off-key poorly dictioned lounge ballad is a reflection of talent.
 
 
 
 
Seriously Geoff, these aren't the droids you're looking for.  


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