The top 100 isn't a reflection of reality
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Site News, Newbies, Help and Improvements
Forum Name: Help us improve the site
Forum Description: Help us improve the forums, and the site as a whole
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=86555
Printed Date: December 02 2024 at 13:27
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: The top 100 isn't a reflection of reality
Posted By: dtguitarfan
Subject: The top 100 isn't a reflection of reality
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 07:51
It is a horrible review, no doubt. But this site is pretentious. The system sets up for a top 100 list that isn't a reflection of reality, but is in fact a reflection of the favorites of a few VIP's. And most people just don't want to deal with the crap they have to go through to get to the point where their opinion counts for anything on this site. ------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List 
|
Atavachron wrote:Replies:
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 08:06
Quantify and qualify please. The Top 100 is collated from all reviews and ratings by all who review and rate including the review and rating of Mr RJN and your reviewless ratings, the only reason it is not a reflection of reality is because it (and all top 100 lists regardless of where they are or how they are collated, including RYM and Billboard) are popularity contests - album X is higher up the chart than album Y because it is more popular. Reviews reflect opinion and therefore some degree of reality but there is no viable system for collating review-based opinion. ------------- What? |
Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 09:20
Exactly - it's going to reflect what's popular. But I challenge you to go to the top 100 for each year, then start looking at how many Facebook "likes" each band in the top 100 has and I guarantee you, you will find the number of "likes" do not match up to what makes it to the top 100 on this page. Why? Because this site has created a system where you give a whopping 20 points to someone who's won the favor of the other people who have 20 points. And how do you win the favor of someone who already has 20 points? By showing that you have the same opinions as them. I see what the goal is behind giving more points to someone who has been around longer, but I don't think it reflects reality, and the longer I have checked the top 100 lists, the more I have decided not to pay any attention to them because I know they don't actually reflect reality, but they reflect the opinions of a few VIP's on this site. You're turning people off - they don't WANT to bother participating in this site because they come and look at the top 100 and immediately know something is wrong because they know album A is more popular in reality than album B, and yet album B is 50 places higher on the list than album A. ------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List
|
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 10:33
I don't know what that means (seriously, I don't know how to look at Facebook "likes") - can you give specific examples, and once you've done that please demonstrate how Facebook "likes" reflect reality.
I don't know but I've a feeling that's a rhetorical question.
That's a sad (and inaccurate) view of how this site works, but one I have heard before so I'll not dismiss it out of hand.
One point of clarification: We award a whopping 2 points to someone who's" won the favour" of the other people who have 2 points.
Another point of clarification: We award a doubling of points to those people who have already demonstrated they have repeatedly earnt 10 points for their reviews over people who only earn 1 point for their reviewless rating.
Another point of clarification: There is no favour system for awarding 10 points to those that review, it is not a merit system, it is automatic - if you take 10-30 minutes (or however long or short it takes) to write a 100+word review you automatically earn a 10 times weighting over those who take 5 seconds to click an Instant Rating bar.
Another point of clarification: Graduation onto the 2x point meritocracy is as close to automatic as it can get - we do not pick favourites or the likemined - write a number of quality reviews and you will be asked to join - rate 100s of albums without review and you will not be asked. If you write poor reviews like the ones highighted in this thread you will not be asked to join.
Another point of clarification: even if we did promote people who only rate without review it would be immaterial - If I rate an album without a review my rating earns 1 point whether I am an ordinary member, a Prog Reviewer, a Collaborator or an Admin - it's a flat system - no review=no weighting.
Another point of clarification: We do not promote people who share the same opinion as the rest of us - that is practically impossible anyway, however if this is true then it should not be too difficult to demonstrate, so please give examples.
I don't, which is why we don't do it.
There are people who have been here since the sites inception who are only here for the craic and to be social, or to passively partake of what is on offer. They have no interest in reviewing or helping maintain the site - we do not promote these people to collaborator but we have tagged some of them as VIP in recognition of their valued contribution to the social aspects of the site - this is a valueless honorific but not a worthless one.
There are people here who were made Prog Reviewer within months of joining because they have produced a number of quality reviews.
There are people here who were made Collaborator within months of joining without having written dozens of reviews (such as myself) because they wanted to help manage and maintain the site and its associated database of albums and artists.
There are people here who were made Prog Reviewer years after of joining because they have produced a number of quality reviews in that longer time period.
There are people here who were made Collaborator years after of joining without having written dozens of reviews because after passively participating for a long period they decided they wanted to help manage and maintain the site and its associated database of albums and artists for whatever reason.
Seniority carries some weight around here, but not exclusively and not for the reason you are intimating. From experience I would say that seniority counts against you to some extent - it's easier to dismiss the opinions of an old fart.
I urge you not to pay any regard to the Top 100 lists, here or anywhere, because they are popularity contests and Prog Rock and Prog Metal has never been about popularity.
No they don't, but please give examples.
(!) How are you judging that album A is more popular than album B? ... (a rhetorical question)... by comparing it to other subjective charts or your own opinion.
If you want to change the system then join the system, if you feel the system does not reflect "reality" then join the system and add your view of reality to the statistics. No one wins a football match by shouting from the sidelines. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 10:53
@ Dean........all I can say is........ Great post. This is not an "exclusive club" as some have charged. If you show genuine interest in being a part of this community and follow up with some willingness to contribute, you can be involved. You can do whatever you like here. And the part about all of us having the same opinions......  |
Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 13:06
|
Dean, I hear your arguments, and admit I had some misconceptions. However, hear me out here: think about your system. 1) you have to review albums to really have your vote count, and it has to be 100 words or more. So basically...you're rewarding the dudes who live in their mother's basements and have no life. Seriously, I have known about this website since the early 2000's, but never bothered to join until a little over a year ago, and then only to rate albums. Then I didn't really start to post in this forum until later on. Only recently did I start to review albums, and since I have a job and a family (and a wife who rolls her eyes and says "you're on that stupid site AGAIN?!!" every time she see's me posting on here) I only bother to review the albums that I think deserve to have a voice, so basically, I'm not going to bother reviewing a mediocre or bad album unless they're way up on the chart to begin with. And I would guess that's how most people out there are. Most people just don't have the time to write a review. So you're skewing the system to the people who have way to much time on their hands. 2) In order to become a collaborator, you have to review albums from many subgenres. I would argue that this means the only people you award "collaborator" status to are people who aren't really experts in any sub-genre. Because honestly, there are sub-genre's on this site that I would even argue shouldn't be on this site to begin with. And other sub-genres I just don't have any interest in - I've tried, but they just aren't for me. So I'm only going to be reviewing in a few certain sub-genres. And that means I'll probably never be a collaborator. But whatever, it's just a website. 3) The fact that you don't even know what a Facebook "like" is further proves my point that this site doesn't match reality. Ok, so bands create pages on Facebook (an IMMENSELY popular social networking site that reaches out to all ages and classes - my GRANDMOTHER is even on facebook. That's huge. My grandmother doesn't know how to plug a mouse into a computer. My Dad had to show her that one.). People "like" a band's Facebook page because they want to show other people that they like them, and also because they want to see the news related to this band. So it's a fairly good way to measure one band's popularity against another. Ok, so what's the number 1 spot for 2011? Discipline: http://www.facebook.com/DisciplineBand 790 likes. That's meagre. Now, where's Dream Theater's latest album on this list? 18th place. Lets see how many likes they have: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Dream-Theater/7677942180 Wha? 2.5 MILLION?!!!!! And they are 18th place? How is this possible? Hmm...I'm going to say it's because people who like Progressive Metal find this site to be snobbish and pretentious....  Seriously, I say this not because it's just my opinion, but because I also hang out in a lot of Progressive Metal circles and I've told people about this site and encouraged them to try to make their voices heard, and that is the reaction I most often get from them - they can't be bothered to get on this site because they feel that it's just a bunch of pretentious snobs. You don't like to hear that, and I get it. But do you honestly believe in the real world that Discipline deserves a higher spot on the top 100 list than any other album on that list for the year? Not to say they are a bad band - they're great. But there are MANY other releases for 2011 that deserve to be higher, and when you stack up the number of Facebook likes for these bands it just doesn't add up. ------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List
|
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 13:16
Geoff. Before Dean responds, some misconceptions in your post. I became a Prog Reviewer on the strength of my reviews (apparently ). I have a wife, 10 year old son, and a full time job. I most certainly do not have too much time on my hands. Thankfully, my wife accepts that this site is my relaxation time, to unwind, listen to great music, and talk to others such as yourself about it.Being taken on as a Collaborator has nothing to do with reviews. That is a Prog Reviewer. I am a collaborator because those who run this site asked me if I would be willing to contribute to the archival nature of the site as a member of the neo-prog team. I was, and remain so, happy to do this. I am not allowed to be a Facebook member because of certain security issues at work. But even if I was, it would not change my opinion that even this is only a popularity contest, just as our lists are. It just happens to have more users than this site, which is, IMO, a good thing for us! Yes, there are snobs in this community. Know what, though, there are also snobs of Facebook, just as there are a bunch of childish prats, well intentioned people, and d**kheads. That's human society, and one will never change that. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 13:17
|
To further back up my point on Facebook likes and the places on the 2011 list, let's look at other Progressive Metal bands on the top 100 list: Haken, 4th place (pretty darn good for a Progressive Metal act on this site): http://www.facebook.com/HakenOfficial 5,062 likes - not that huge, but way more than Discipline Myrath, 19th place: http://www.facebook.com/myrathband 19,646 likes - that's WAY more than Discipline Arch / Matheos, 20th place: http://www.facebook.com/archmatheos 3, 739 likes Nightwish (not my favorite band, mind you, and I don't even think they're that progressive, however...), 59th place: http://www.facebook.com/nightwish ...HOLY....2.8 MILLION likes? How the heck is Discipline beating them out? Mind you, I don't think they deserve to be very high on a Progressive list of best albums, but still, if there was any reality to this list they'd have to be #1. I'll stop there. ------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List
|
Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 13:21
|
Ooh, one more: http://www.facebook.com/animalsasleaders 77th place on the list, 148k likes on Facebook. Ok, just one more: http://www.facebook.com/symphonyx 80th place on the top 100 for the year, 213k likes. ------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List
|
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 15:24
I know I'm not Dean, but maybe I can save him some time, although I shouldn't have to worry about that since he obviously has no life.
I have three children (one due to be born in two weeks), one wife, two jobs, I am enrolled in a university and taking courses, I do the cooking and grocery shopping, I cut the grass, I write and record original music (two albums so far, five more in the works), I write novels, I attend church regularly, and somehow I am still #36 on the most prolific reviewers list. My reviews are track-by-track, so they tend to be between 300 and 1200 words on average.
This is simply false and Dean has already said as much. I was not promoted to collaborator simply because I wrote reviews. I participated in the forum, built relationships, and was eventually asked to join the Eclectic Prog Team. I am now a Special Collaborator who can add artists. Am I an expert in Eclectic Prog? Nope. That's why I don't have a tag that says "Eclectic Prog Expert." But being an expert isn't a requirement for becoming a collaborator- being friendly, helpful, patient, and willing to learn are.
I fail to see how Facebook "likes" (i.e., a mere single left-click) are more reflective of this "reality" you keep referencing than the reviews of people who have listened to the music with a critical ear. Maybe for you, Facebook is the true measure of collective opinion. Of course, it fails to take into consideration the 5,939,507,003 people on the planet who do not have a Facebook account (including me). ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 15:27
|
This must be a joke. And the Facebook argument is one of the main reasons. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: The Truth
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 15:32
|
In other news: DTLOL ------------- http://blindpoetrecords.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow">  
|
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 15:43
|
The only reality in facebook likes is that they are the result of thoughtless clicks by people who want to be 'part of the group', regardless of what the 'like' is about. Failing to accept that is more pretentious than any prog fan on this site will ever be. If you need reality, you'll never find it on Facebook, ProgArchives, nore in old fashioned paper music journals. Reality is what we live in every day, and what we write on paper or the internet is only a filtered record of our perception of that reality. Looking at a top 100 and wondering why it doesn't reflect reality is pointless - your looking at a once more filtered result on said records. Maybe it's someone else who spent too much time in an, albeit different, basement. ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 15:46
Um, no. If you honestly think 2.5 million vs. 790 means nothing, YOU are the joke. Wake up, the top 100 is not a reflection of reality. ------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List
|
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 15:51
|
You said that the Top 100 only reveals what's popular. I'm pretty sure 50k people clicking "Like" on Rush's website and having bands like Kayo Dot not even reaching 2k reveals that Facebook has the same flaw. Stop whining about how Top 10 isn't composed solely of DT releases. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 16:08
I'm not whining about that. This discussion started in a thread where someone was trying to get another person's review removed from the site because the reviewer accused the site of being pretentious based on the paragraph that warns against giving albums 5 stars. And I was making the point that, while the review was horrible, the "pretentious" argument is not far from the truth. I was arguing that the system that rewards more points to people who review the albums and even more to people who have stuck around long enough to become "collaborators" is what is skewing the system. And when I was challenged to prove my opinion, I did it in the only way I knew to bring out numbers that support my argument. Why does Rush only have 50k? Maybe because they've been around so long that they aren't generating enough excitement to bring in the younger crowd. But you HAVE to admit that it is a little strange that an album whose band has only 790 "likes" on Facebook is at place number 1 for the year, while an album whose band has 2.5 MILLION likes, and that sold enough copies to make it to place #6 overall on Amazon, and place #8 on the Billboard chart, and got a grammy nomination is at place #18 on the list. Do I think every DT album should be 5 stars? No. In fact I have not rated all their albums that way. Some of their albums SUCK. ------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List
|
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 16:44
|
Hey Geoff, If your point is that the tastes of PA people are different to those of people from other websites, that's fair enough.  And I think it's also fair to say that prog fans' tastes are a bit eccentric when compared to "normal" tastes, so there shouldn't really be any surprises about this. Myself I also know a few bands that are fairly popular in the "outside world" but don't fare as well on PA, and I don't have a problem with that. I can only hope you don't think that if our tastes are different to those displayed on generalist websites such as Last.fm, RYM and others, then we are "wrong" in our tastes (which are a subjective thing 100%). They're just our tastes. But if you claim that by giving extra weight to certain people we are distorting the tastes of the general PA community, that's not true and it can be seen why very easily: if you compare the general charts for each recent year to the collaborators' own yearly top, you can see that the two lists are very different and that collaborators pick albums that don't really make it very high in the charts. Would the weight given to collabs skew the charts in favour of their tastes, then the two kind of lists would be similar, but they are not. Here's a comparison for the last three years: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85083" rel="nofollow - Collabs' list for 2011 / http://www.progarchives.com/top-prog-albums.asp?ssubgenres=&salbumtypes=1&syears=2011&scountries=&sminratings=0&smaxratings=0&sminavgratings=0&smaxresults=100&x=51&y=5#list" rel="nofollow - General chart for 2011 (Collabs rated highly four albums that don't feature in the general chart's top 10, one of which is the last DT album.) http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=76149" rel="nofollow - Collabs' list for 2010 / http://www.progarchives.com/top-prog-albums.asp?ssubgenres=&salbumtypes=1&syears=2010&scountries=&sminratings=0&smaxratings=0&sminavgratings=0&smaxresults=100&x=79&y=4#list" rel="nofollow - General chart for 2010 (only three of the Collabs' top 10 can be found in the general chart's top 10! It's also interesting to see that the #3 is on #40 in the general chart. [But that doesn't compare with the Collabs' #1 for 2006 being on #96 in the general chart!  ])http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65430" rel="nofollow - Collabs' list for 2009 / http://www.progarchives.com/top-prog-albums.asp?ssubgenres=&salbumtypes=1&syears=2009&scountries=&sminratings=0&smaxratings=0&sminavgratings=0&smaxresults=100&x=76&y=9#list" rel="nofollow - General chart for 2009 (again only three of the Collabs' top 10 can be found in the general chart's top 10; the Collabs put Transatlantic in the top 10, the general chart doesn't.) As you can see, the impact of the Collabs' top preferences over the general chart that sums up all the ratings and reviews on PA is not at all great. |
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 17:07
If only we could somehow arrange a worldwide poll . . . 
|
Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 17:32
Well, I'm sorry if I ticked anyone off. But I do think it is a little ridiculous that a member is trying to get another member's review removed because he isn't a good enough creative writer. It's tough to review an album, after all the great Frank Zappa himself said "writing about music is like dancing about architecture." I have started to try to review albums, but I never took creative writing - I'm a computer programmer who grew up in a musical family and played piano and sang in chorale. So I think my opinions on the subject of music count for something and should be given the 10 points...but I don't know what to say about an album other than "I liked it" or "I didn't like it." And the point I'm trying to make about pretentiousness comes from a background of trying to get people in the Progressive Metal scene to come on this site and rate albums. I know there are Progressive Metal bands that ought to be higher on those lists. But I don't think the general Progressive Metal crowd likes to hang out here. One person told me they wouldn't bother to even click the star rating on this site because it was a waste of time as this is a community of pretentious snobs. I've tried to analyze why that would be and my thought was that it might have to do with the way this site gives more weight to some ratings over others, and thought maybe that was skewing things. But maybe it's just that Progressive Metal fans see that there aren't many other Progressive Metal fans on this site to begin with, and decide this place isn't for them. I'm going to stick around, stubborn as I am, and maybe that will start to change. ------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List
|
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 17:46
|
^ I didn't have time to check out the discussion about that particular review in much detail, but my impression was that those who were against it (Epignosis, Atavachron, Ivan) were so because it violated one of our reviewing guidelines (no comments about other people's tastes and reviews), while the one person saying that the review is rubbish (ExitTheLemming) also said that it's fine with him. With the rest of your reply I completely agree. It should be said though that PA is somewhere at the middle of the ladder of pretentiousness, as we ourselves our looked down by others, like the guys from that forum where they said that PA is a bunch of dudes with a hard-on for Marillion (how low of us). |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 17:59
Maybe Zappa was a lousy writer who wouldn't do a good job? The review in question said almost nothing about the album and insulted other reviewers and whined about the rating other reviewers gave it. I don't see why that review should stay because it isn't a review of the album in any sense that satisfies 100 words. It adds nothing to the value of this site or community. So that has nothing to do with creativity- it has everything to do with being a crybaby.
That's a start though! Identify what aspects of an album stand out for you (either good or bad). Comment on melody, structure, dynamics, etc- whatever you think is worth commenting on. You can also draw comparison to similar bands or albums to provide a frame of reference. Remember that the ultimate purpose of the review is to either recommend it or not recommend the album to others. Perhaps if you began writing some reviews, you could get your Progressive Metal friends to check out your reviews. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 18:01
I always thought he meant it was rather pointless |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 18:07
In that case, he's just wrong. People who have written about music have encouraged me to buy or bypass it. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: colorofmoney91
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 18:07
Man, reviewing albums is kind of hard for me. My first reviews were awful, and only improved in quality very slowly, but you eventually get an idea of how you want your reviews to be like. Now, I'm comfortable with them. You should go ahead and write your bad reviews and you'll get better as you review more often.This, however, will make the process of becoming a Prog Reviewer way more difficult, if you have that aspiration at all. Anyway, I have no idea what you were talking about but I thought I should try to inspire you. I assume this thread is probably a sh*tstorm of sorts, as are most threads.
------------- http://hanashukketsu.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - Hanashukketsu |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 18:13
|
Ya know, this tired old cliche shows the OP has no clue... 1) you have to review albums to really have your vote count, and it has to be 100 words or more. So basically...you're rewarding the dudes who live in their mother's basements and have no life The vast majority of the collabs on this site have careers and/or wives and/or children, and yes, interesting lives. We have doctors, teachers, engineers, admin professionals, musicians....a wide spectrum of people from all over the world. They donate their time here for something they enjoy. Drop the attitude and people would actually be happy to welcome you. |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 18:22
| I don't think he realizes how short 100 words is. He's posted like 2000 words in this thread, today, alone. |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 18:28
|
^
|
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 18:48
Oh crap. What a pile of dog pooh this has turned into. If I had known this was going to be a whinefest for how hard done by Dream Theatre is on this site or a lame excuse to insult the people who enjoy coming here to rate, review and collaborate I honestly would not have bothered. 
I know what a Facebook "like" is you facetiously patronising person (hey, you started chucking the insults around, not me) - said I didn't know how to look them up, and you still haven't enlightened me on that issue - sure I can go to the band's facebook page and see the number of likes they have in total - that's not what you asked me to do and not what I asked you to demonstrate. How do I look up Facebook "likes" for all the artists represented in the Top 100? and how do I see the number of "likes" for each effin' album, including Dream Theatre's latest? Or their best (Metropolis Part 2: Scenes From A Memory)? Or their worse (no comment, I don't think any of their albums suck, though I will admit Octavarium bores me to tears, but that's not Dream Theatre's fault)? So how do I play Facebook Top Trumps?
Dream Theatre have sold over 12 million albums - 2.5 million "likes" is kind of what I'd expect (well, it's a bit light really, but never mind) ... Pink Floyd 18 million "likes" (yeah! I win Top Trumps!)... Yes - no official page ... Genesis - no official page ... Jethro Tull - no official page ... Rush - no official page .... It seems like Facebook doesn't quite reflect the demographic that is interested in Prog Archives and therefore not stunningly representative of reality, in reality. hmmm...16 million people "like" Guns'n'Roses - how did we miss them from our charts?
Facebook "likes" are a representation of what the people who have Facebook pages like, (it does what it says on the tin - see Ronseal reference below), including the 19 million people who "like" http://www.facebook.com/groups/117463860400/#!/Pringles" rel="nofollow - Pringles and the (same/different) 19 million people who "like" http://www.facebook.com/pages/Macdonals/120521434630762?ref=ts#!/McDonalds" rel="nofollow - McDonald's - for crying out loud. One million more people feel the need to "like" reconstituted baked potato starch baked into a saddle shape than "like" Pink Floyd on a social networking site for the socially inept. (hey, that's our job!)
My heart weeps buckets for all those thousands of bands that people cannot be bothered to "like" at all, or haven't accumulated as many "like" as http://www.facebook.com/pages/Macdonals/120521434630762?ref=ts#!/pages/Ronseal-UK/204245726266058" rel="nofollow - Ronseal "Does Exactly What It Says On The Tin" Wood Varnish. Please bring me some more freaking reality, I can http://www.facebook.com/pages/Macdonals/120521434630762?ref=ts#!/always" rel="nofollow - always find 156,693 more on Facebook. More people like http://www.facebook.com/pages/Macdonals/120521434630762?ref=ts#!/stannahstairlifts" rel="nofollow - Stannah Stairlifts (your granny perhaps? mine's dead - my mum is dead too, and she never had stairs - no "upstairs" in a bungalow, [or basement come to that], so no need for stairlifts there, or Facebook, unless there is an Ouijabook) than like Discipline - looks like our reviewers don't know a decent Prog album from an electrically assisted stair-climbing aid for old folk, shame on them listening to Prog Rock instead of carrying their poor old grannies up stairs.
Facebook "likes" are binary - you like something or you don't - there is no quantitative measure - according to Facebook I "like" everything equally, and obviously I don't. Facebook just records that I a) saw the "like" link and b) liked it enough to click on it, and the tally of all those other people who also clicked on that "like" is merely the count of all the people who a) saw the "like" link and b) liked it enough to click on it - that's all - nothing more than that - it is not a measure of "goodness", it doesn't tell you what track three sounds like or whether the guitar solo is the sweetest you'll ever hear. All it says is that 2.5 million people who saw a link clicked it - that those people know what a Dream Theatre is and had the motivation to click a link- sure it's all nice and egalitarian - all those "likes" are equal - from the die-hard trufan whose owned every album, single and DVD and seen every tour through to the kid who saw the names scrawled in Sharpie his sister's boyfriend's school bag but hasn't actually heard them but wants to look cool and trendy to his 'friends' who also have Facebook who have "liked" those noisy metal bands like Slipknot and Linkin Park though he'd much rather listen to his mum's Adele CD in the car on the way to school but he got beaten up last time he said that.
All those "likes" are equal and fair because they are not judgemental or biased by such unquantifiable fripperies as "they're a good band but is this album really any good?", or "Yeah, it's a good Metal album but it's not really a Prog album is it?"... And that last point is a salient point when it comes to this web site and why we are not facebook or rate-your-musac - I were to review http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=26739" rel="nofollow - For Lies I Sire (48,157 Farcebook "likes" for My Dying Bride - I'll call that a healthy result) here I'd give it 3-stars because it's good but not essential Prog Metal album, but on Metal Music Archives I'd give it 4-stars because it is an excellent Doom Metal album. You may choose to disagree with that philosophy and argue that if it is a 4-star album on MMA then it should be a 4-star album on the PA, and you are free to use your own philosophy when rating albums here, as does every one (in reality), but in all honesty I cannot rate an album on a Progressive Rock site without judging its "progressive" quality in comparison to other progressive metal albums. Facebooks non-judgemental, unbiased, egalitarianism doesn't tell you anything, it's not even a popularity contest because there is no distinction between "liking" Dream Theatre and "liking" Nightwish - your 'vote' is equal for both of them but the extra 300,000 people who "liked" Nightwish more does not reflect your actual views of both bands, or the public reality of whether one Roadrunner band is better than another Roadrunner band given that they are both promoted by Roadrunner equally (Slipknot for the Roadrunner Top Trumps win if you are playing along at home).
Facebook "Likes" are no more a reflection of reality than the number of telephone votes on Your-Country's Got Talent for some talentless blob of lard who sold the public a hard-luck story while wailing a tuneless off-key poorly dictioned lounge ballad is a reflection of talent.
Seriously Geoff, these aren't the droids you're looking for. ------------- What? |
Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 19:08
 ------------- Magma America Great Make Again |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 19:12
I take exception to your inane responses here. They are illogical, uninformed and have no basis in fact. Lets explore these briefly here. 1. You say: "So basically...you're rewarding the dudes who live in their mother's basements and have no life. Seriously, I have known about this website since the early 2000's, but never bothered to join until a little over a year ago, and then only to rate albums." For a start I am married with 3 kids, an English and relief school teacher who works many hours. I review albums as a form of RECREATION and RELAX time after work or on weekends. That is my business. It is not up to you to generalise in such an arrogant and uninformed manner. You are in error to assume in this way and when you ASSUME you make an ASS of U and ME. 2. You say "the only people you award "collaborator" status to are people who aren't really experts in any sub-genre. Because honestly, there are sub-genre's on this site that I would even argue shouldn't be on this site to begin with." When I began reviewing I was focussing on albums I had interest in which just happened to be Symphonic prog. This was acknowledged and recognised by admins here who INVITED me to be a Reviewer and later on to join the Symphonic Prog team. It was not as if I was requesting this but it was a labour of love to review the albums. I enjoyed doing it and I guess the enthusiasm is noticed when people have a passion for something. I heard somewhere if you have a fiery passion for something, people will come from everywhere to watch you burn. What is wrong with showing enthusiasm? I do not need to know about Indo Raga sub genre to enjoy prog. If it comes to a specific style of prog so be it. The sub genres are here precisely because Prog encapsulates a plethora of styles that all have validity within the umbrella term of Prog. I for one am delighted/glad that so many sub genres are available because music is a complex and varied medium that should not be constricted by barriers or boundaries. If we put Prog in a box we stifle what is great about the form of music. We confine the creative power of Prog and that is an unforgivable crime here. 3. Facebook has nothing to do with Progarchives. The two sites are from different worlds and are as far removed from one another as Planet Mars is from Neptune. 4. You say: "they can't be bothered to get on this site because they feel that it's just a bunch of pretentious snobs. You don't like to hear that, and I get it. But do you honestly believe in the real world that Discipline deserves a higher spot on the top 100 list than any other album on that list for the year? Not to say they are a bad band - they're great. But there are MANY other releases for 2011 that deserve to be higher, and when you stack up the number of Facebook likes for these bands it just doesn't add up." Prog metal is a popular genre by itself - many into it would not even recognise it as prog metal - some proggers go as far as believing metal is not prog at all. I think it has a place like all other forms of prog. I have no problems listening to Dream Theater after hearing Pink Floyd or Camel. Or awarding Haken's new album 5 stars along with the 5 star effort of Steven Wilson. It is a matter of taste and what appeals. There is no text book description as to what constitutes a great album. After all it is music to be enjoyed for those who want to indulge. For others, just go off to the other metal sites and enjoy your time there. In closing, rather than put such a great site down as Progarchives, that is run well by sincere passionate people who care about the genre, it would be well advised to take your grievances to other places as you obviously are not enjoying your time here. In my opinion what is the sense of hanging around a site where you disagree with all that makes this site great in the first place. That is one reason I do not hang around the forums of our sister site MetalArchives. I simply do not enjoy the experience so I do not waste my time there, though I will review the albums occasionally. I also do not feel it in my best interests or anyone else's to challenge others perceptions of music or to rile them up by making inappropriate comments about their taste in music. I do not like black metal but I am not going to visit the black metal sites and tell them that Emperor or Dark Throne are a load of crud, I simply stay out! And I feel all the better for it. Surely all this makes sense. So I wish you well in wherever your music tastes take you.  ProgArchives may not be a perfect website, I have yet to find one, but it is a sincere and genuine attempt to present all that is prog to the masses and for those who enjoy it and care about the genre. Peace. ~~~ ACR ------------- 
|
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 19:50
Ok I want to respond to this one because you are saying "I have started to try to review albums, but I never took creative writing - I'm a computer programmer who grew up in a musical family and played piano and sang in chorale. So I think my opinions on the subject of music count for something and should be given the 10 points...but I don't know what to say about an album other than "I liked it" or "I didn't like it." This can be remedied if you are struggling with how to review an album. Heres a case in point It is my first review here (I was very wet behind the ears back then and surprise surprise it is a Dream Theater review!) It is certainly not my best but what does it actually say that makes it a review worthy of something, at least not just saying I liked it or I didnt like it and not giving the reader a reason why they may or may not like it? Here we go, this shouldnt take long.  My first review here is also one of the great prog MASTERPIECES. Scenes From a Memory is the Magnum Opus of Prog metal legends Dream Theater and I must admit I first heard this on the brilliant live Scenes from New York 3 CD epic. I had become quite used to the way it was played live so it was quite a surprise to hear the variations on this studio recording. The first thing I noticed was the incredible production and how clear the audio is in comparison to the live version. The transitions between songs works exceptionally well and the copncept is stronger with the spoken narrative. The way the CD ends with the 'wake up' call is chilling and is an excellent denouement to the overall story.Highlights are the wonderful Beyond This Life and the last tracks that blend together in a masterful symphonic multisuite movement. It is definitely one of the best the band has to offer along with Images and Words, Octavarium and the amazing classic 6 Degrees of inner Turbulence. One of the best prog metal CDs you will ever hear. Deep lyrics, complex time signatures and an encapsulating concept - this is pure bliss and a must if you love progressive metal. __________________________________________________________________________________________ That was afwul 1st paragraph - okay I state its a MASTERPIECE, the Magnum Opus of DT. ho hum but why do I believe this? I compare it to other DT albums. and state that I had first heard it live on the Scenes from NY Live CD. Ok. Not great so far but interesting I guess. Next: I mention "the incredible production and how clear the audio is in comparison to the live version". I mention the "transitions between songs works exceptionally well and the copncept is stronger with the spoken narrative." Forget I didn't spell concept properly for a second. At least i am happy I mentioned it was a concept album. "The way the CD ends with the 'wake up' call is chilling and is an excellent denouement to the overall story." Ok I mention a song, important in reviews to let the reader know what songs are worth attention. Next paragraph: I mention the highlight songs. Not a bad idea but I didnt go into detail at all. I do that these days but back then I didnt bother but I like reading reviews that mention the highlights. Maybe I could listen to those songs first and if I like them, go for the whole album later. Last paragraph: Another comparison, this time with Images and Words, Octavarium and 6 Degrees of inner Turbulence. I like all those equally so I mention that. Then I say it is one of "the best prog metal CDs you will ever hear". I state this sweeping generalisation but at least back it up with why, namely the "Deep lyrics, complex time signatures and an encapsulating concept". So if you are into this stuff you will like it is what I am trying to say, though badly at this point in my reviewing career I finish with a massive statement "this is pure bliss and a must if you love progressive metal." OKay it is not Shakespeare, but the review tells you 3 things - it is a worthwhile DT album in comparison to others by the band, it tells you some of the highlights, and it tells you the type of music to expect. Really a review is your opinion and why you like the music and what a reader can expect when they hear the album. I think anyone can do it but they just have to follow a system like that. You get better the more you do of course. My shameful review here was a beginning but I enjoy more detail these days and I hope you enjoyed my sincere attempt to show how you can write a basic review. -------------
|
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 20:17
See that? Dean has it. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 20:25
|
Hey, I write awful reviews all the time. Here's a fun story about just how much Prog Reviewer means I've been a part of this site for three years or so. I have a 3-year old son, a full time job, and a wife (basically). I have played the saxophone for 10 years. I'm teaching myself piano, violin, harmonica (whoo!), and how to sing. I am a writer. I've written a 300 page book of interconnected short stories and a 150 page novella about all sorts of stupid philosophical science fiction crap and I am currently in the process of being published. I write music reviews for relaxation. I have several hundred of them (most all of them 100+ words) on here, and more than 1,000 reviews of random albums saved onto my hard drive. In all honesty, it is basically a diary for me. My thousands of pages of album reviews are my diary-with-a-purpose. My day at work was atrocious. I had to take all these calls and I wanted to stab my throat with a nail, but golly the riffs on Iron Maiden's Brave New World sure are trivial. how many gallops will they repeat before they're dead?! And my manager was complaining about this and that. I couldn't stand it so I tuned it out then Bruce Dickinson pretended to know something about history... I used to be a Prog Reviewer. I wrote mediocre reviews that I didn't enjoy writing. Then I started writing reviews that I personally loved to write, but they didn't meet the criterion required for their inclusion on the site (virulent vulgarity, asinine humor (or lack thereof), lots of mean-spirited hatred, and a real big load of (unnecessary) honesty). I wonder how many folks remember my review for Iron Maiden's Final Frontier. At that point, I surrendered my Prog Reviewer position. I didn't have to. I chose to forfeit my slightly increased rating weight for the sake of the fact that I like writing about music regardless of whether or not it influence the charts. I could've kept on writing in a manner I detested. I don't always like being informative and I don't always like NOT being informative. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the way 99.9% of the people in this site rate and review albums. I, however, decided that my writing was for myself. Now I don't post reviews at all. I still participate in the forums from time to time, if for no other reason than to have a light conversation with some familiar names, names I can usually trust to offer a thoughtful reply. So, speaking from the perspective of a PA member who has been in several different positions (insecure newcomer, excitable upstart, consistent member, full Prog Reviewer, reviled thread troll, obscure side-note, etc.), the charts are only useful at-a-glance. Just like when Rolling Stone magazine says that Kurt Cobain is worth more as a guitarist than David Gilmour. When Rolling Stone magazine says that Pet Sounds is better than Dark Side of the Moon, you read it, you joke about it, then you go on your merry way. I'm only re-iterating what Dean's said and he said it terribly eloquently. The ratings here are skewed and imbalanced - but that is simply because humanity is skewed and imbalanced. It is a matter of perspective. Hey! what a trivially generic way to end a post, huh?! Oh yeah, I really hate Dream Theater.
 |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 20:41
|
^^^ Nice post! -------------
|
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 21:58
|
Yes, because Zappa said it, it must be true. When will people understand that being a genius (or something close to it) in one art or area of life doesn't automatically give invulnerability to whatever you say? Some of the greatest artists have been some of the worse philosophers or thinkers in history... And some just should have remained doing what they did best, because once they opened their mouths.... By the way, and I'm obviously not one either (used to be kind of one until like 6 years ago) but... Why has nobody jumped to defend the few dudes we might have that actually live in their moms basements and have no life? Maybe if they really have no life they probably listen to A LOT of music and their opinion would then be of special interest.... Oh yes and that review is garbage...
------------- 
|
Posted By: VanVanVan
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 23:46
Excellent tips. Writing about music is hard, no doubt, but I'd venture a guess that most of the people who write reviews here have never taken creative writing courses- but as with all things, if you pound away at it long enough it gets easier. Regarding the topic as a whole, I don't think the list is meant to reflect any kind of "objective" reality, merely the collective opinion of the fanbase here at PA. What weight people assign to that collective opinion is purely up to them. My two cents, anyway. ------------- "The meaning of life is to give life meaning."-Arjen Lucassen |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: April 30 2012 at 00:09
|
See that? Dean has it. I am so pleased Dean has a Trisector holographic Projection!  -------------
|
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: April 30 2012 at 00:37
WOW , so many long posts, id better read this, must be interesting  ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: April 30 2012 at 00:40
 Though I would just pop in to be irreverent. But really... ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: April 30 2012 at 01:08
 ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm 
|
Posted By: Dougie of Anubis
Date Posted: April 30 2012 at 23:51
|
I hate this site. Lady Gaga isn't #1 and she has 50.3 million fans on Facebook; the true measuring stick for popularity.
------------- http://hemina.bigcartel.com" rel="nofollow"> 
|
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 01 2012 at 04:55
^ Unlucky Dougie - in tonight's Top Trumps I'm afraid you've only picked the #7 answer - if you had gone for Rihanna (55.1m) or Eminem (55.3m) you could have gone through to the next round and a chance of winning tonight's star prize of a free phone app that allows you to "like" things on a social network site that allows you to like things, which of course is the number one "liked" thing on the social network site that allows you to "like" things with over 81million people "liking" http://www.facebook.com/f4ep" rel="nofollow - Facebook For Every Phone ... yes that's right folks... the thing that people "like" most on Facebook is the phone app that allows them to "like" things on Facebook... once again for the hard of comprehending... every 211mS a person on this Earth uses their opposable thumb to click a button on an app on a mobile phone to register their approval of the app on their phone that has a button that their highly evolved thumb can click on and then use that app on that phone to tell the other 81,212,811 people (as of GMT 10:49 1/5/2012) who also managed that same feet of human dexterity who also have the same app and "liked" it so much they felt the need to register that on a social network site.
 ...we're in the wrong game. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 01 2012 at 06:13
|
Well apparently the OP is a genius when it comes to evaluating music. Just because your personal favorites aren't on it or placed where you think they ought to be there must be something wrong with it. Like the likes on facespace or whatever aren't a popularity contest like. I really don't bother with it. I value it like a horoscope. For amusement purposes only. Not to be taken as the penultimate guide to the best albums in the universe and everything. Why do I get the feeling the complaint wouldn't have been launched if there were more Dream Theater titles in the top 100? I am reminded of a Robert Fripp song NY3 "Well get out, there's the door Well get out, there's the door Well get out, there's the door Well get out, there's the door"  Having said that, I did give Crime Of The Century a try because it was the only title out of ten albums I hadn't heard before on the list that I could find in stock at a local record store. I had gone searching for something new to me and used it and found something good. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
|
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: May 01 2012 at 06:18
| Prog-Metal fans are welcome if they understand that this is not a Prog-Metal site. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: May 01 2012 at 06:37
And people say I'm sarcastic..... ------------- 
|
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 01 2012 at 07:40
|
I learnt from the best... ------------- What? |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: May 02 2012 at 11:10
|
^
|
Posted By: Conor Fynes
Date Posted: May 09 2012 at 01:54
|
Woah man, reality is like, not reality man.... Reality is like, a subjective projection of our own subconscious. I personally don't see anything wrong with the Top 100, it hits most every objectively 'essential' prog record.
|