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Epignosis 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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 Posted: December 09 2011 at 22:26 |
 Anthony H. wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
Anthony H. wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
Anthony H. wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
Anthony H. wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
Because of the signed/unsigned/free releases thing.
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What absolute bollocks. That's an absurd policy in the year 2011.
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What exactly is absurd?
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Record labels are a defunct idea by this point. Free self-releases are becoming more and more ubiquitous, and it's nonsensical to reject this music (which CLEARLY fits into the site) on the basis of how it's released.
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Eh? We've made it already possible for free releases to get in, it's been almost a year now.
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Then why doesn't Vomps qualify? (I'm actually asking; maybe there's something I don't know about the policy.)
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The free releases policy was made to adjust the PA submission process to help pro bands and dedicated musicians that happen to release their music for free go through, while discerning them from bedroom projects or people creating music on a computer for fun, which PA is not about. Not that this should read that we consider bedroom projects and the likes as bad things, it's just where we chose to set the bar (we can't host all music created).
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But if the music fits, why not? By those standards, professionalism (regardless if it's free or not) is an important standard for inclusion. So, does this mean that we take Simon Railton off?
My point is: it's inconsistent. If music fits on the site under a certain genre, then it should be included.
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Huh? I was the final vote for Simon Railton. He is on the Musea label, which ultimately swayed my decision.
That said, I tend to be more liberal about free-releases. Music is music is music is music.
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SaltyJon
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 08 2008
Location: Location
Status: Offline
Points: 28772
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Posted: December 09 2011 at 22:27 |
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Rob, remember that it's not just Prog Electronic, but also Krautrock (for all realistic intents and purposes, I do not consider Oliverstoned to be a member of that team anymore since I can't recall seeing much, if any input from him since I became a collab) and the micro-genre of Indo/Raga. Might as well address all three of Philippe's "teams" while we're at it, as I've mentioned several times to others in PMs.
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Conor Fynes
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 11 2009
Location: Vancouver, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 3196
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Posted: December 09 2011 at 22:28 |
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I've personally never understood why some collaborators would prefer to exclude an artist, rather than include them. I love the site, but it shouldn't be taken so bloody seriously.
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989
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Posted: December 09 2011 at 22:29 |
Epignosis wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
We'll get more trustworthy collabs and genre specialists in the electronic team when they appear, sure.
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Is the current gatekeeper of Prog Electronic helping to recruit new members, or are you seriously just waiting for them to "appear?"
To me, this is a serious situation. No genre team should consist of one man. Aube is Prog Electronic but Vangelis and Jean Michel Jarre are not?
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We are very proactive about the collaborator ranks and teams, surely you must have noticed this. As for prog electronic discussions, there has to be other better place for them (instead of Vomps' suggestion thread) so they don't get lost and gather more useful opinions from users.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: December 09 2011 at 22:31 |
SaltyJon wrote:
Rob, remember that it's not just Prog Electronic, but also Krautrock (for all realistic intents and purposes, I do not consider Oliverstoned to be a member of that team anymore since I can't recall seeing much, if any input from him since I became a collab) and the micro-genre of Indo/Raga. Might as well address all three of Philippe's "teams" while we're at it, as I've mentioned several times to others in PMs.
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If this is the case, then I am even more concerned. Why has one fellow been permitted to run three sub genres?
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: December 09 2011 at 22:36 |
harmonium.ro wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
We'll get more trustworthy collabs and genre specialists in the electronic team when they appear, sure.
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Is the current gatekeeper of Prog Electronic helping to recruit new members, or are you seriously just waiting for them to "appear?"
To me, this is a serious situation. No genre team should consist of one man. Aube is Prog Electronic but Vangelis and Jean Michel Jarre are not?
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We are very proactive about the collaborator ranks and teams, surely you must have noticed this.
As for prog electronic discussions, there has to be other better place for them (instead of Vomps' suggestion thread) so they don't get lost and gather more useful opinions from users.
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I noticed proactiveness when it came to Eclectic Prog which had 3 members, not Prog Electronic when it has one. There should be zero additions if a team has one member. A quorum must be established.
I'm not trying to discuss other potential Prog Electronic bands here- I'm merely expressing my disapproval that one man runs a sub genre (or three), and I quite disagree with his judgment.
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989
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Posted: December 09 2011 at 22:44 |
Epignosis wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
We'll get more trustworthy collabs and genre specialists in the electronic team when they appear, sure.
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Is the current gatekeeper of Prog Electronic helping to recruit new members, or are you seriously just waiting for them to "appear?"
To me, this is a serious situation. No genre team should consist of one man. Aube is Prog Electronic but Vangelis and Jean Michel Jarre are not?
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We are very proactive about the collaborator ranks and teams, surely you must have noticed this.
As for prog electronic discussions, there has to be other better place for them (instead of Vomps' suggestion thread) so they don't get lost and gather more useful opinions from users.
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I noticed proactiveness when it came to Eclectic Prog which had 3 members, not Prog Electronic when it has one. There should be zero additions if a team has one member. A quorum must be established.
I'm not trying to discuss other potential Prog Electronic bands here- I'm merely expressing my disapproval that one man runs a sub genre (or three), and I quite disagree with his judgment.
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I didn't say you could have noticed our proactiveness about the Prog Electronic team, because wasn't going to be noticeable by people unrelated to it. It was about noticing the proactiveness in general. Like I just said above, "We'll get more trustworthy collabs and genre specialists in the electronic team when they appear, sure."
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: December 09 2011 at 22:46 |
harmonium.ro wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
We'll get more trustworthy collabs and genre specialists in the electronic team when they appear, sure.
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Is the current gatekeeper of Prog Electronic helping to recruit new members, or are you seriously just waiting for them to "appear?"
To me, this is a serious situation. No genre team should consist of one man. Aube is Prog Electronic but Vangelis and Jean Michel Jarre are not?
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We are very proactive about the collaborator ranks and teams, surely you must have noticed this.
As for prog electronic discussions, there has to be other better place for them (instead of Vomps' suggestion thread) so they don't get lost and gather more useful opinions from users.
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I noticed proactiveness when it came to Eclectic Prog which had 3 members, not Prog Electronic when it has one. There should be zero additions if a team has one member. A quorum must be established.
I'm not trying to discuss other potential Prog Electronic bands here- I'm merely expressing my disapproval that one man runs a sub genre (or three), and I quite disagree with his judgment.
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I didn't say you could have noticed our proactiveness about the Prog Electronic team, because wasn't going to be noticeable by people unrelated to it. It was about noticing the proactiveness in general.
Like I just said above, "We'll get more trustworthy collabs and genre specialists in the electronic team when they appear, sure."
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That's fine. But there should not be any additions to Prog Electronic (or any one-man genres) until more collaborators are added. Do you agree?
Edited by Epignosis - December 09 2011 at 22:47
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 16913
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Posted: December 09 2011 at 22:46 |
Conor Fynes wrote:
I've personally never understood why some collaborators would prefer to exclude an artist, rather than include them. I love the site, but it shouldn't be taken so bloody seriously. |
I don't believe any Collabs "prefer to exclude" artists, we follow the sites rules and we give our opinions (votes) based on how the music relates to the sub definitions. I've never understood why so many people have trouble understanding that.
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989
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Posted: December 09 2011 at 22:50 |
Epignosis wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
We'll get more trustworthy collabs and genre specialists in the electronic team when they appear, sure.
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Is the current gatekeeper of Prog Electronic helping to recruit new members, or are you seriously just waiting for them to "appear?"
To me, this is a serious situation. No genre team should consist of one man. Aube is Prog Electronic but Vangelis and Jean Michel Jarre are not?
|
We are very proactive about the collaborator ranks and teams, surely you must have noticed this.
As for prog electronic discussions, there has to be other better place for them (instead of Vomps' suggestion thread) so they don't get lost and gather more useful opinions from users.
|
I noticed proactiveness when it came to Eclectic Prog which had 3 members, not Prog Electronic when it has one. There should be zero additions if a team has one member. A quorum must be established.
I'm not trying to discuss other potential Prog Electronic bands here- I'm merely expressing my disapproval that one man runs a sub genre (or three), and I quite disagree with his judgment.
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I didn't say you could have noticed our proactiveness about the Prog Electronic team, because wasn't going to be noticeable by people unrelated to it. It was about noticing the proactiveness in general.
Like I just said above, "We'll get more trustworthy collabs and genre specialists in the electronic team when they appear, sure."
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That's fine. But there should not be any additions to Prog Electronic (or any one-man genres) until more are added. Do you agree?
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No. The process of developing the electronic team will take time. Not much, I would hope, but I can't guarantee anything.
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Anthony H.
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 11 2010
Location: Virginia
Status: Offline
Points: 6088
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Posted: December 09 2011 at 22:53 |
Epignosis wrote:
Anthony H. wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
Anthony H. wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
Anthony H. wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
Anthony H. wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
Because of the signed/unsigned/free releases thing.
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What absolute bollocks. That's an absurd policy in the year 2011.
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What exactly is absurd?
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Record labels are a defunct idea by this point. Free self-releases are becoming more and more ubiquitous, and it's nonsensical to reject this music (which CLEARLY fits into the site) on the basis of how it's released.
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Eh? We've made it already possible for free releases to get in, it's been almost a year now.
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Then why doesn't Vomps qualify? (I'm actually asking; maybe there's something I don't know about the policy.)
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The free releases policy was made to adjust the PA submission process to help pro bands and dedicated musicians that happen to release their music for free go through, while discerning them from bedroom projects or people creating music on a computer for fun, which PA is not about. Not that this should read that we consider bedroom projects and the likes as bad things, it's just where we chose to set the bar (we can't host all music created).
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But if the music fits, why not? By those standards, professionalism (regardless if it's free or not) is an important standard for inclusion. So, does this mean that we take Simon Railton off?
My point is: it's inconsistent. If music fits on the site under a certain genre, then it should be included.
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Huh? I was the final vote for Simon Railton. He is on the Musea label, which ultimately swayed my decision.
That said, I tend to be more liberal about free-releases. Music is music is music is music.
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No, he should certainly stay. I'm just saying that under these supposed guidelines (which I disagree with), he should be removed. I was just using him as an example to criticize the guidelines.
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SaltyJon
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 08 2008
Location: Location
Status: Offline
Points: 28772
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Posted: December 09 2011 at 22:54 |
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@Alex: Whether or not it'll take time, I think that Rob's suggestion of halting additions to the "team" until the "team" becomes a team is a good one. No genre should be ruled solely by one person's opinions. If the admin team is adamantly against shutting down the genre until there's a real team in place, then may I suggest that you act as temporary team members until a proper team is formed?
Edited by SaltyJon - December 09 2011 at 22:55
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: December 09 2011 at 22:55 |
harmonium.ro wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
We'll get more trustworthy collabs and genre specialists in the electronic team when they appear, sure.
|
Is the current gatekeeper of Prog Electronic helping to recruit new members, or are you seriously just waiting for them to "appear?"
To me, this is a serious situation. No genre team should consist of one man. Aube is Prog Electronic but Vangelis and Jean Michel Jarre are not?
|
We are very proactive about the collaborator ranks and teams, surely you must have noticed this.
As for prog electronic discussions, there has to be other better place for them (instead of Vomps' suggestion thread) so they don't get lost and gather more useful opinions from users.
|
I noticed proactiveness when it came to Eclectic Prog which had 3 members, not Prog Electronic when it has one. There should be zero additions if a team has one member. A quorum must be established.
I'm not trying to discuss other potential Prog Electronic bands here- I'm merely expressing my disapproval that one man runs a sub genre (or three), and I quite disagree with his judgment.
|
I didn't say you could have noticed our proactiveness about the Prog Electronic team, because wasn't going to be noticeable by people unrelated to it. It was about noticing the proactiveness in general.
Like I just said above, "We'll get more trustworthy collabs and genre specialists in the electronic team when they appear, sure."
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That's fine. But there should not be any additions to Prog Electronic (or any one-man genres) until more are added. Do you agree?
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No. The process of developing the electronic team will take time. Not much, I would hope, but I can't guarantee anything.
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I'm moving my comment to the CZ, Alex.
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989
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Posted: December 09 2011 at 22:57 |
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I'm going to bed, it's morning. :P
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irrelevant
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 07 2010
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 13382
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Posted: December 10 2011 at 04:10 |
Anthony H. wrote:
Record labels are a defunct idea by this point. Free self-releases are becoming more and more ubiquitous, and it's nonsensical to reject this music (which CLEARLY fits into the site) on the basis of how it's released.
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AtomicCrimsonRush
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 02 2008
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 14258
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Posted: December 10 2011 at 05:35 |
Awesome discussion - so what has become of this then? A verdict? my thoughts To include an artist should require a minimum of three votes - As we do on the Symphonic Team, we have to come to a mutual agreement whether a band is added or not or it is passed on. It works well as a system because team members can be accountable and take our opinions into considerations while we vote. Some are obvious, others we need to collaborate more. The point is it works. I would hate to think an artist is not added because one man decided it was not and his vote was all that mattered being the only one on the team. It does not seem fair to the artist.
A case in point - Merzbow has not been added to the PA but Aube has - what's the difference - they are both noise artists. Is one noisier than the other? Who decided that?
Edited by AtomicCrimsonRush - December 10 2011 at 05:36
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tupan
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: August 22 2005
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 1239
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Posted: December 10 2011 at 07:06 |
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"Prog is Not Dead and never has been." (Will Sergeant, from Echo And The Bunnymen)
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The Neck Romancer
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 01 2010
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 10185
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Posted: December 10 2011 at 08:39 |
That's up to Philippe :/
But well, the point of the discussion was originally the inclusion of self-releasing artists. Why are some allowed to enter and others aren't, even though the admin team says they're unsigned acts and therefore inegilible.
And I know a member that probably knows more about prog electronic than our friend Ricochet.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: December 10 2011 at 08:58 |
Polo wrote:
But well, the point of the discussion was originally the inclusion of self-releasing artists. Why are some allowed to enter and others aren't, even though the admin team says they're unsigned acts and therefore inegilible. |
It's up to the individual genre teams. Bands that are not signed to a record label are not automatically ineligible for inclusion.
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colorofmoney91
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 16 2008
Location: Biosphere
Status: Offline
Points: 22774
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Posted: December 10 2011 at 09:20 |
AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:
A case in point - Merzbow has not been added to the PA but Aube has - what's the difference - they are both noise artists. Is one noisier than the other? Who decided that?
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Merzbow, in my opinion, has more prog value than Aube. Not only did Merzbow's career start much earlier (IIRC), but more of Merzbow's compositions have longer time lengths for the compositions to progress throughout multiple feels, and many of his albums are conceptual. I think both Merzbow and Aube deserve a place here, but Merzbow is the more deserving of a progressive title. They're both more progressive than most of the noise I have. I'm not here to disagree with Philippe's decisions though.
Also, adding the Merzbow discography to this site would be a biiiiiiiiitch and it would only result in bad reviews galore.
Edited by colorofmoney91 - December 10 2011 at 09:30
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Vompatti (yup, the one and only) - Prog Electronic
