1. Equal rated albums- Crossings vs. Nursery Cryme

Saperlipopette! wrote: I'd replace Maiden Voyage with Empyrean Isles, but love both.

Ditto

Never heard the Herbie one.  Maybe I should check it out.

Alitare wrote: ^I can't even tolerate Foxtrot most days. All I care for is SEBTP and half of Lamb.

This,

and Crossings is wonderful fusion.

Man With Hat wrote: Logan wrote: Triple quote makes for a really long post... Man With Hat wrote: In a way, I'm interested in seeing Crossings with 1127 ratings and seeing how different it's rating is. I've wondered the same with a lot of my favourite albums, though I know most of what I like would not appeal much to a general Prog audience.  I'd also be interested to know, if you've heard Crossings, how you would rate it (we share some of the same tastes in music -- though just judging by your JRF ratings, I wouldn't say I  think we have much in common when it comes to that category). Anyway, for me to imagine Crossings having that many ratings I would have to imagine PA's general audience being very different.  It's important to note that Herbie Hancock was  a much later addition to PA than Genesis, and there was resitance to his addition, and also that his music is not the kind of music that is Prog genre, really, even if he has albums that fit his category at PA very well.  If most people at PA tried Crossings, I don't think they'd like it.  I don't think most at PA would ever get the album (such musical avenues are not going to be as popular at a site like this as, say, Genesis symph type music, and cone could not expect the JRF category to be as generally popular as Symphonic Prog at a Prog site --  bands like Mahavainu Orchestra are quite popular, but I would venture that they are more ina classic prog vein, and of course that was an early addition to the site.  I think a lot of people, though that lot is a minority, didn;t really start exploring albums such as Crossings until after the buzz over the addition of Hancock (and Miles Davis not that long before that).  Certainly there are quite a few here who do enjoy jazz by American black musicians, but it's not PA's core audience, and some of those would only really know bebop well. One way that an album such as Crossings may get a lot more ratings here (and really it has a lot for a site like this considering various factors) would be if more fans of that kind of Fusion, and artists that make it, come to the site and join to rate because such music has got a lot more representation at PA .  Also, a considerable number of people who have similar tastes to mine at PA have discovered it fairly recently, and more will. So how would the ratings be if a) more fans of that style join this site and rate it b) more people at this site who are into similar music dicover it and rate it and c) more of the typical Proggers decide to check it out and rate it. I don't think the ratings will be affected that much.  We'll see how it rates in a couple of years, but I'd be hella surprised if it has as anywhere near as many ratings as Nursery Cryme does now (and NC will have more by then).  One factor that may affect it quite a bit over the next year though is collab ratings, since more collabs who aren't into that kind of music may decide to check it out and review it. I would doubt that Crossings is very popular at most jazz sites.  As Saperlipopette says, ""Crossings is nowhere near being a favorite or concidered his best anywhere outside of PA". Like it, love it or not, Nursery Cryme is a Prog classic and one can expect huge popularity and knownness at a site such as this, whereas Crossings would appeal to a niche audience of people at PA.  To me iCrossings is a real classic of its idiom.   I've edited the post above, so apologies if I messed up the quote pyramid.   Yeah, you pretty much said what I meant to imply with that post. I'm actually surprised at this stage that it is that high. As you said, its not a very accessable album, and I'm sure there are plenty of jazz fans and fans of more experiemental music that don't like it (let alone people who like rock music [of any kind]). Though persoanlly I would expect it to decrese in rating over the years. The one thing that could save it is that people may ignore it and not listen to it, or that if they do and they don't like it they won't listen to it enough to give it a low/lower rating. Though who knows really...   As for how I feel about it...I like it. (Certainly more than that Davis album from your other poll ) I like most forms of jazz (or I should say that there aren't many types of jazz that are inital turnoffs), and I do love experimental musics of all kinds so I was definitely interested to check it out. I think i'd give it a 3.5-3.75 on my personal scale as of now. I do have admit though...I do sometimes confuse it with Sextant...probably because I got them both at the same time.

Good post.  I think you're right that it will decrease in rating over the years.  I'm sure there would many who are into jazz, Fusion, and/or experimental music who wouldn't think highly of it.

Just out of idle curiosity, I checked rate yourr music to see how it rated against other albums of his (I just chose the years cause these are the albums I know of his).  That site has far more ratings for Crossings, so....

1964	Empyrean Isles	11 issues	37	974		4.06	rate
1964	Inventions and Dimensions	10 issues	17	258		3.91	rate
1965	Maiden Voyage	13 issues	39	1,271		4.02	rate
1966	Blow-Up	12 issues	11	200		3.74	rate
1968	Hear, O Israel: A Prayer Ceremony in Jazz	3 issues	3	23		3.94	rate
1968	Speak Like a Child	7 issues	13	227		3.79	rate
1969	The Prisoner	3 issues	8	124		3.47	rate
1970	Fat Albert Rotunda	4 issues	17	267		3.83	rate
1971	Mwandishi	5 issues	16	307		3.83	rate
1972	Crossings	7 issues	15	361		3.84	rate
1973	Sextant	7 issues	40	735		3.93	rate
1973	The Spook Who Sat by the Door	UAR-7370	4	15		3.20	rate
1973	Head Hunters	20 issues	140	2,696		4.01	rate
1974	Death Wish	3 issues	1	96		3.60	rate
1974	Dedication	3 issues	4	29		3.53	rate
1974	Thrust	5 issues	30	517		3.86	rate
1975	Flood	3 issues	8	122		3.99	rate
1975	Man-Child	7 issues	14	291		3.65	rate
1976	Traces	UPF-194	1				rate

I started with Sextant (well, I had heard Headhunters before that, but it was when I heard Sextant that I became a fan and started seeking out many Mwandishi related albums)

dreadpirateroberts wrote: Saperlipopette! wrote: I'd replace Maiden Voyage with Empyrean Isles, but love both. Ditto

Those are my favourite Hancock albums along with the Mwandishi trilogy of the ones I have.  I never got into the Headhunters phase so much.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Logan wrote: T Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: NURSERY CRYME  is a masterpiece, CROSSINGS is not even among the best Hancock albums. Iván Crossings ranks amongst the best Hancock albums for me, and, though I like Nursery Cryme, it is not a masterpiece for me. I respect differences in taste, but if you mean to express your opinion as if it were objective truth write large, then I firmly disagree with your statements. I find Crossings deeper and more enjoyable (has rewared my repeat listenings much better).  That said, I also commonly prefer JRF to Symph, although both caqtegories have much that I do like.  Vive la difference. All we express here, is our personal opinion, even if we don't say IMHO. Most people say that Lark's Tongues in Aspic is a masterpiece, I doin't believe this, it's simple taste. Iván

I appreciate your response, and would not really think that your subjective truths you hold to be objective.  Most of us just express personal opinion (some opinions are more objective and valid than others) when ascribing value to the arts, though one can be more objective within certain frameworks of analysis.  As I am not well trained in music theory, nor that knowledgable about music generally, I have less capability and qualifications in that regard than others.  I do believe that one can judge quality in a fairly objective manner.  Of course the poll/ topic is not about which is better, merely which one prefers, and if people wish to explain, why they prefer something. 

I find the IMHO to be abused by people too much. To me it's a different thing to say, for example, I find something bad (if based purely on taste and not more technical analysis), or better yet, I don't like something, than I believe something is bad, or something is bad in my opinion.   I generally use in my opinion when I think I have a good, rational reason to believe something that goes beyond just matters of, say, personal bias/ preference.  We all have opinions, but some are more defensible than others, and that includes when it comes to judging the qualities of music and performance.

I don't believe that Nursery Cryme is not a masterpiece even if the Genesis album I tend to think of as the masterpiece according to my tastes/ qualifications is The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. 

But, before I get really silly with this, I really am curious to know which Hancock albums you consider/ find  to be his best.  That's what I should have asked instead before, because that would give me more insight into your thinking, I think, and what is it about them that seems better to you.

thehallway wrote: ^ Interesting that they prefer Sextant. Also, Head Hunters is only ignored on PA because it has a commercial slant. I love the album, and I think a lot of others do, but they rarely give it the rating it deserves on this site because they're comparing it to the proggier Crossings. I guess that's more to do with the general problem of reviewing things in light of "how prog they are" whether than how much you like them. I find that pointless. Many, many albums on this site aren't progressive (caused by having artists' entire discogs on here) and people are giving them low ratings as a result, which just makes them look like bad albums. The only exceptions seem to be Miles Davis (the infamous KOB, which is half way up our top 100 prog albums list) and maybe The Beatles. It wouldn't be an issue if we were actually any good at saying what is prog and what isn't, but we aren't, as we've established in this thread. I think we should either be rating things based on nothing more than quality, or we change the way the ratings and stars actually look if we're going to be judging 'progginess' (because at the moment the ratings just look like they represent quality, not how prog an album is).

I agree with your point, and excuse any tangents and unnecessary details.  I've had a few sleepless nights, and the more tired I am the more I ramble.

That probably is the case with some who are rating Head Hunters -- I haven't had the chance to look at that page (if collabs, then that has  greater effect on the rating, of course, and I have seen collabs rate based on their prog expectations).  I would rate the three Hancock albums which follow Head Hunters higher, plus the Mwandishi trilogy, plus some 60s ones, not because it's less Prog or progressive really, but simply because I find the others more satisfying.  I would still give Head Hunters a very good grade, and do enjoy it (I love funky music and groove).

  I wouldn't follow the practice of rating based on how Prog an album is (Prog does mean quite different things to different people -- we bring our own expectations), or, and this has bothered me in the ratings decriptions, I wouldn't rate based on how rock an album is.  I actually value the progressive part more than the rock part, as I consider myself to be more of a progressive music than progressive rock admirer, but, whatever..

 I think it better to rate an album on your perceived quality or value of it and how much one likes it than on questions of progginess or suitability to the site and/ or its category (especially basing a rating on how much one likes an album, which is the only way I have rated albums -- I think one can be in difficult waters when trying to judge quality overmuch, just as it is to judge prog qualities,, and such attempts can really be very subjective.  There are albums that I think accomplished but dislike the musical idiom, so if I were more of a rater/ reviewer I wouldn't want to give really low scores just based on my taste).

 It's not surprising at a site like this that the (I don't even like the word Prog to describe the wide Prog umbrella music that PA carries) albums that  have more in common with prog (proggier) commonly will rate higher than in other music communities because of the tastes at a Prog site and that reviews do reflect tastes, but I have seen too many reviews for my tastes here where the reviewer marked down albums just because he/she didn't think they are Prog, and to me that is silly -- there was a  long discussion on this before that I should find to link to.  I think that we should officially alter the applicable stated expectations on rating (the rating criteria) -- that whole thing should be changed.  Instead of Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music", I would change it to something like Yowza!  Totally essential to my collection, which is explicity subjective in nature. 

thehallway wrote: ^ Interesting that they prefer Sextant. Also, Head Hunters is only ignored on PA because it has a commercial slant. I love the album, and I think a lot of others do, but they rarely give it the rating it deserves on this site because they're comparing it to the proggier Crossings.

Its not so much that they prefer Sextant. Its much more known, but not nessecarely preferred by those who know both. I don't think of Head Hunters as commercial. It was just the right album at the right time. The "commercial" On the Corner could be least favorite Miles Davis album because of the endless repetitive funk rhytms that seem to go nowhere. To me Headhunters is a real struggle to listen to for similar reasons. At times these catchy tracks hurts my ears, unlike many avantgarde jazz compositions. But I have no problem with commercial music. I like ELO, ABBA, Carpenters, Monkees. Bee Gees... 

Saperlipopette! wrote: thehallway wrote: ^ Interesting that they prefer Sextant. Also, Head Hunters is only ignored on PA because it has a commercial slant. I love the album, and I think a lot of others do, but they rarely give it the rating it deserves on this site because they're comparing it to the proggier Crossings. Its not so much that they prefer Sextant. Its much more known, but not nessecarely preferred by those who know both. I don't think of Head Hunters as commercial. It was just the right album at the right time. The "commercial" On the Corner could be least favorite Miles Davis album because of the endless repetitive funk rhytms that seem to go nowhere. To me Headhunters is a real struggle to listen to for similar reasons. At times these catchy tracks hurts my ears, unlike many avantgarde jazz compositions. But I have no problem with commercial music. I like ELO, ABBA, Carpenters, Monkees. Bee Gees...

 But Head Hunters is my favourite! With music of that style, I think the repetitive nature is actually essential. E.g. The whole point of Chameleon would not be achieved in 2 minutes. I guess it's personal opinion. Do you like James Brown?