1. Equal rated albums- Crossings vs. Nursery Cryme
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Topic: 1. Equal rated albums- Crossings vs. Nursery Cryme
Posted By: Logan
Subject: 1. Equal rated albums- Crossings vs. Nursery Cryme
Date Posted: October 23 2011 at 21:04
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Equal rated albums w/ non-equal nos. of ratings In this poll, people can vote in all conscience without having heard both albums. Since the better-known album (one with more ratings) in such a poll would have such a huge advantage, I am turning the tables by calculating the winner by using the number of votes for an album in the poll divided by the number of ratings and the one with the 'highest" number accrding to that equation will win. In this case, both have many ratings, but Nursery Cryme has many more. So, for instance, if Crossings gets ten votes, I will divide that by 93 to get 0.107526881. If Nursery Cryme got 10 votes I would divide it by 1127 to get 0.008873114. If they got the same number of votes, then Crossings would win. In fact, to win, Nursery Cryme will need about 12 times as many votes to win, which may happen as the Genesis album is much better known at PA. ../album.asp?id=19945" rel="nofollow"> 
4.42 | 93 ratings
../album.asp?id=19945" rel="nofollow - Crossings 1972 ../album.asp?id=3" rel="nofollow"> 
4.42 | 1127 ratings
../album.asp?id=3" rel="nofollow - Nursery Cryme 1971 EDIT: Renamed title to include album names. |
Replies:
Posted By: BenevolentBehemoth
Date Posted: October 23 2011 at 21:49
| Crossings is one of the best fusion albums, so that's where my vote goes. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 23 2011 at 22:07
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^ Agreed. Tied for now in the votes, by the way, so Nursery Cryme has a lot of catching up to do. I think my next one may be Hellebore's Il y a des Jours vs. Yes' Going for the One, incidentally. |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: October 23 2011 at 23:02
| Nursery Cryme isn't even good by Genesis standards, IMO. I can't tolerate to listen to it. |
Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: October 23 2011 at 23:09
| ^I can't even tolerate Foxtrot most days. All I care for is SEBTP and half of Lamb. |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: October 23 2011 at 23:10
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I have not heard crossings :( but i plan to sometimes, Seven Stones on Nurcery Cryme is one of my favourite songs of all time and i find it to be a exelent album probably my 6th on the list after 1) the Lamb, 2) And Then There... 3) Foxtrott, 4) Wind and Wuthering and Selling England and Nercury Cryme is tied.
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Posted By: dreadpirateroberts
Date Posted: October 23 2011 at 23:28
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HH for me, a giant of an album ------------- We are men of action. Lies do not become us. http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/" rel="nofollow - JazzMusicArchives. |
Posted By: SaltyJon
Date Posted: October 23 2011 at 23:33
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Crossings fits my tastes in music much better than Nursery Cryme (though it's not a bad album either, I rarely listen).
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Salty_Jon" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: October 23 2011 at 23:37
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Hm I think part of the reason why the rating for NC is so high is some fanboyism, as the album to me at least has some major flaws, though it'snot a bad album. Crossings has a fair a million billion ratings less. So maybe "Crossing"'s ratings are more because it is a more quality albums and less because of thousands of Genesis fans who'd listen to anything they make. ------------- There be dragons |
Posted By: akaBona
Date Posted: October 24 2011 at 02:24
| Nursery Cryme. From Trespass to Lamb they made fine albums, even few masterpieces. |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: October 24 2011 at 03:12
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NC ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: October 24 2011 at 03:12
| I like Crossings and see it as an intelligent work of art, but I must admit I can find more value and replay in Nursery Cryme. |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: October 24 2011 at 03:14
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In a way, I'm interested in seeing Crossings with 1127 ratings and seeing how different it's rating is. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: October 24 2011 at 04:12
I don't know. I really love Nursery Cryme and don't think there's any major flaws on it. To me its kind of perfect although I don't really listen to as often as I once did. I'm listening to it right now thanks to this poll, and I'd still give it a 4.50-5 rating. I guess like me many feel the "magic" it contains (the prog "magic" punks and hipsters love to hate, I guess). Although I love a lot of their music from the Gabriel-era albums wouldn't consider giving any other Genesis album a fivestar, so I can't be a fanboy. I do however still spin Crossings quite regularly. I never grow tired of it and it would probably be on my list of ten desert island albums. |
frippism wrote:Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: October 24 2011 at 04:20
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I just never got on with Crossings and given it's overwhelming popularity, I must be missing out on something pretty damn wonderful (guess it's my loss but I might be coaxed into giving it one last chance) ------------- 
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 24 2011 at 04:29
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Two albums of almost opposite polar value, both an apex of from where they came (Jazz and Rock n' Roll), and both provided incredibly new and challenging directions. It's no wonder their equally rated. An irresistible force meets an immovable object. That said, my vote goes to Crossings. |
Posted By: Atoms
Date Posted: October 24 2011 at 04:34
| I love both albums, but since I can safely say that the Musical Box is the best song ever written (in my opinion). I can't do anything else than vote for Nursery Cryme. |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: October 24 2011 at 05:12
Considering the kind of music it is, I'm pleasantly surprised of its popularity here. Crossings is nowhere near being a favorite or concidered his best anywhere outside of PA. But they are all wrong, and I'm sure has the potential to eventually open up to anyone (including you) slightly interested in this era of jazz. Its to magnificent not to. I know I've listened to plenty of great music without noticing the first time around, tried it again years later and loved it. |
Posted By: frankbostick
Date Posted: October 24 2011 at 05:35
| I don't like Crossings, i don't like HH and so... |
Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: October 24 2011 at 08:58
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About Nursery Cryme: I don't think there are any musical weak spots on the album. Not only the epics are impressive, but also the short songs like For Absent Friends and Seven Stones are quite good. I never listened to Crossings, though, so I won't vote. |
Posted By: digdug
Date Posted: October 24 2011 at 10:04
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Crossings was disappointing. Not bad ...but just ok Nursery Cryme is a 5 star album for me ------------- Prog On! |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: October 24 2011 at 10:07
| Crossings, easily. |
Posted By: gents
Date Posted: October 24 2011 at 12:46
| Nursery has no flaws. The best Genesis album. It's perfect in every way. Crossings is ''just'' very good. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: October 24 2011 at 13:02
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NURSERY CRYME is a masterpiece, CROSSINGS is not even among the best Hancock albums. Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 24 2011 at 13:22
Triple quote makes for a really long post...
Not saying this would be the case with you, but commonly when I have found an album disappointing, it's been because my expectations were not met because I had the wrong expectations of the musical qualities (the sound) to expect. It tends to be with me more that I was expecting something different musically rather than I was expecting that type of music (sound) but I didn't think it was done well (unless it's say, different orchestras/ conductors doing a classical work). I really got into Herbie Hancock due to Sextant, which was love at first listen for me-- and that is a lower-rated album than Crossings that I would have thought would be generally more palatable to prog audiences than Crossings (like Crossings iit is also a five star album for me, and i love Mwandishi, the first of the trilogy, and that was also love at first listen to me -- in fact that probably fit my common tastes the best of the trilogy). Crossings was rather more of a challenge for me than Mwandishi or Sextant to wholly like. I find Crossings very rich, and shall I say, sophisticated, and really rewarded repeat listenings -- there were subtelties for me to absorb over time, and it took a while for it to fully unfold with me. It helped me having heard two of the Maupin-penned Crossings tracks (the side-two tracks, "Quasar" and "Water Torture") on ther later Maupin album, Slow Traffic to the Right, which are pretty easy listening versions, less dense and experimentalish, of the same tracks (I love those two too in their own way). I Also for me discovering Eddie Henderson's Realization and Julian Priester's Love, Love, both of which i adore, helped to solidify my love for Mwandishi period style works. Had I discovered an album such as Crossings when I was more into the Mahavishnu Orchestra kind of music (which was before I was into Davis, Hancock, and most of the Fusion and electric jazz, I'm into now, it might not have appealed nearly so much. Others are more into the Hancock Headhunters period of music, and those might well be disappointed with Crossings. I like the Mwandishi and pre-Mwandishi period best for Hancock (though I do like Death Wish, and still haven't heard The Spook....)
I've wondered the same with a lot of my favourite albums, though I know most of what I like would not appeal much to a general Prog audience. I'd also be interested to know, if you've heard Crossings, how you would rate it (we share some of the same tastes in music -- though just judging by your JRF ratings, I wouldn't say I think we have much in common when it comes to that category). Anyway, for me to imagine Crossings having that many ratings I would have to imagine PA's general audience being very different. It's important to note that Herbie Hancock was a much later addition to PA than Genesis, and there was resitance to his addition, and also that his music is not the kind of music that is Prog genre, really, even if he has albums that fit his category at PA very well. If most people at PA tried Crossings, I don't think they'd like it. I don't think most at PA would ever get the album (such musical avenues are not going to be as popular at a site like this as, say, Genesis symph type music, and cone could not expect the JRF category to be as generally popular as Symphonic Prog at a Prog site -- bands like Mahavainu Orchestra are quite popular, but I would venture that they are more ina classic prog vein, and of course that was an early addition to the site. I think a lot of people, though that lot is a minority, didn;t really start exploring albums such as Crossings until after the buzz over the addition of Hancock (and Miles Davis not that long before that). Certainly there are quite a few here who do enjoy jazz by American black musicians, but it's not PA's core audience, and some of those would only really know bebop well. One way that an album such as Crossings may get a lot more ratings here (and really it has a lot for a site like this considering various factors) would be if more fans of that kind of Fusion, and artists that make it, come to the site and join to rate because such music has got a lot more representation at PA . Also, a considerable number of people who have similar tastes to mine at PA have discovered it fairly recently, and more will. So how would the ratings be if a) more fans of that style join this site and rate it b) more people at this site who are into similar music dicover it and rate it and c) more of the typical Proggers decide to check it out and rate it. I don't think the ratings will be affected that much. We'll see how it rates in a couple of years, but I'd be hella surprised if it has as anywhere near as many ratings as Nursery Cryme does now (and NC will have more by then). One factor that may affect it quite a bit over the next year though is collab ratings, since more collabs who aren't into that kind of music may decide to check it out and review it. I would doubt that Crossings is very popular at most jazz sites. As Saperlipopette says, ""Crossings is nowhere near being a favorite or concidered his best anywhere outside of PA". Like it, love it or not, Nursery Cryme is a Prog classic and one can expect huge popularity and knownness at a site such as this, whereas Crossings would appeal to a niche audience of people at PA. To me iCrossings is a real classic of its idiom.
Crossings ranks amongst the best Hancock albums for me, and, though I like Nursery Cryme, it is not a masterpiece for me. I respect differences in taste, but if you mean to express your opinion as if it were objective truth write large, then I firmly disagree with your statements. I find Crossings deeper and more enjoyable (has rewared my repeat listenings much better). That said, I also commonly prefer JRF to Symph, although both caqtegories have much that i do like. Vive la difference. |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: October 24 2011 at 15:13
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Genesis only jazz influence is Phils drumming influence, i bet Phil have listen to ALOT of Mahavishnu, Herbie Hancock, Weather Report and Return to Forever, most of the other guys were classical and philosophy heads
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 24 2011 at 15:30
^ i love classical, as well as jazz. Herbie Hancock began with playing classical music as a child, and studied it for his degree in music. Her's a very recent article on his "return to his classical roots" (In case anyone is interested): http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/arts/music/herbie-hancock-returns-to-classical-roots/article2206760/" rel="nofollow - http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/arts/music/herbie-hancock-returns-to-classical-roots/article2206760/ EDIT: Incidentally, I am familiar with Phil Collins'work in Brand x and know about his jazz proclivities. I know such a what ifs are insanely silly, but I wonder how Genesis would have been if Herbie Hancock were in it instead of Tony Banks, and how the Mwandishi players works would have been with Collins on the kit instead of Billy Hart. The classical influence (composition) shows in both Hancock and Genesis projects. |
Posted By: colorofmoney91
Date Posted: October 24 2011 at 19:22
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Crossings. ------------- http://hanashukketsu.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - Hanashukketsu |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: October 24 2011 at 19:37
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: dreadpirateroberts
Date Posted: October 24 2011 at 19:40
Thanks Logan  ------------- We are men of action. Lies do not become us. http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/" rel="nofollow - JazzMusicArchives. |
Posted By: Fox On The Rocks
Date Posted: October 24 2011 at 20:57
 .------------- 
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Posted By: Fox On The Rocks
Date Posted: October 24 2011 at 20:59
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Obviously and of course Nursery Cryme. -------------
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: October 25 2011 at 17:36
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I love both, and Fountain of Salmacis, in particular, I find to be sublime. That said, I´m currently playing the Mwandishi records far more than any Genesis album - hence my vote for Crossings. I´ll probably swing around at some point and fire myself into my old Genesis records. Music is a journey, but it seems that I end up where I started once a year at least, and suddenly I just need a healthy dose of Floyd or Genesis.
------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: yanch
Date Posted: October 25 2011 at 17:56
| Nursery Crime |
Posted By: MattGuitat
Date Posted: October 25 2011 at 18:04
| Well, obviously Nursery Cryme! |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: October 25 2011 at 18:50
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Crossings and Maiden Voyage are IMO Hancock's most accomplished albums. Stunningly "perfect", innovative, funky and yet highly complex, a real treat. Nursery Cryme is, undoubtedly, a classic Prog album. I love it, its muddy production has became a bonus for me. Yet, it by no means reaches the standard of innovation and sophistication reached in Crossings, even if comparing both is rather hard. Crossings.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: October 25 2011 at 19:02
All we express here, is our personal opinion, even if we don't say IMHO. Most people say that Lark's Tongues in Aspic is a masterpiece, I doin't believe this, it's simple taste. Iván -------------
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Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: October 26 2011 at 03:34
I've edited the post above, so apologies if I messed up the quote pyramid.
Yeah, you pretty much said what I meant to imply with that post. I'm actually surprised at this stage that it is that high. As you said, its not a very accessable album, and I'm sure there are plenty of jazz fans and fans of more experiemental music that don't like it (let alone people who like rock music [of any kind]). Though persoanlly I would expect it to decrese in rating over the years. The one thing that could save it is that people may ignore it and not listen to it, or that if they do and they don't like it they won't listen to it enough to give it a low/lower rating. Though who knows really...
As for how I feel about it...I like it. (Certainly more than that Davis album from your other poll  ) I like most forms of jazz (or I should say that there aren't many types of jazz that are inital turnoffs), and I do love experimental musics of all kinds so I was definitely interested to check it out. I think i'd give it a 3.5-3.75 on my personal scale as of now. I do have admit though...I do sometimes confuse it with Sextant...probably because I got them both at the same time.------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: October 26 2011 at 03:45
Perfectly put. All of it. Except I'd replace Maiden Voyage with Empyrean Isles, but love both. Muddy 70's production  |
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: October 26 2011 at 03:51
edit
I once read that description of Waters and Gilmour. I'll leave it to the reader's imagination to match the one to the other. Unless you read the same thing I did! I suppose that poll has been done... I've, um, not heard the Herbie H album. I never vote for or against anything I've not heard so can't do it. Sorry. Incidentally I was wondering if it were possible to list all albums by rating to see which was best / most poular/ worst / unknown etc and found these polls. Couldn't choose between the Miles (love it) and the Yes though. (love it.) I look forward to the results... |
Posted By: dreadpirateroberts
Date Posted: October 26 2011 at 05:32
Ditto ------------- We are men of action. Lies do not become us. http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/" rel="nofollow - JazzMusicArchives. |
Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: October 26 2011 at 06:43
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I can't vote here. I listen more to Crossings these days but Nursery Cryme has that something 'special' |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: October 26 2011 at 13:03
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Never heard the Herbie one. Maybe I should check it out.
------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 26 2011 at 13:13
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You could start with this shorter track and see if it appeals: |
Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: October 26 2011 at 14:40
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This, and Crossings is wonderful fusion. ------------- http://www.thefreshfilmblog.com/" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: crimhead
Date Posted: October 26 2011 at 19:06
| How could one not like Harold the Barrel. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 27 2011 at 12:26
Good post. I think you're right that it will decrease in rating over the years. I'm sure there would many who are into jazz, Fusion, and/or experimental music who wouldn't think highly of it. Just out of idle curiosity, I checked rate yourr music to see how it rated against other albums of his (I just chose the years cause these are the albums I know of his). That site has far more ratings for Crossings, so....
I started with Sextant (well, I had heard Headhunters before that, but it was when I heard Sextant that I became a fan and started seeking out many Mwandishi related albums)
Those are my favourite Hancock albums along with the Mwandishi trilogy of the ones I have. I never got into the Headhunters phase so much.
I appreciate your response, and would not really think that your subjective truths you hold to be objective. Most of us just express personal opinion (some opinions are more objective and valid than others) when ascribing value to the arts, though one can be more objective within certain frameworks of analysis. As I am not well trained in music theory, nor that knowledgable about music generally, I have less capability and qualifications in that regard than others. I do believe that one can judge quality in a fairly objective manner. Of course the poll/ topic is not about which is better, merely which one prefers, and if people wish to explain, why they prefer something. I find the IMHO to be abused by people too much. To me it's a different thing to say, for example, I find something bad (if based purely on taste and not more technical analysis), or better yet, I don't like something, than I believe something is bad, or something is bad in my opinion. I generally use in my opinion when I think I have a good, rational reason to believe something that goes beyond just matters of, say, personal bias/ preference. We all have opinions, but some are more defensible than others, and that includes when it comes to judging the qualities of music and performance. I don't believe that Nursery Cryme is not a masterpiece even if the Genesis album I tend to think of as the masterpiece according to my tastes/ qualifications is The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. But, before I get really silly with this, I really am curious to know which Hancock albums you consider/ find to be his best. That's what I should have asked instead before, because that would give me more insight into your thinking, I think, and what is it about them that seems better to you. |
Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: October 27 2011 at 13:17
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^ Interesting that they prefer Sextant. Also, Head Hunters is only ignored on PA because it has a commercial slant. I love the album, and I think a lot of others do, but they rarely give it the rating it deserves on this site because they're comparing it to the proggier Crossings. I guess that's more to do with the general problem of reviewing things in light of "how prog they are" whether than how much you like them. I find that pointless. Many, many albums on this site aren't progressive (caused by having artists' entire discogs on here) and people are giving them low ratings as a result, which just makes them look like bad albums. The only exceptions seem to be Miles Davis (the infamous KOB, which is half way up our top 100 prog albums list) and maybe The Beatles. It wouldn't be an issue if we were actually any good at saying what is prog and what isn't, but we aren't, as we've established in http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=82247&PID=4326554#4326554" rel="nofollow - this thread . I think we should either be rating things based on nothing more than quality, or we change the way the ratings and stars actually look if we're going to be judging 'progginess' (because at the moment the ratings just look like they represent quality, not how prog an album is). ------------- http://www.thefreshfilmblog.com/" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 27 2011 at 14:43
I agree with your point, and excuse any tangents and unnecessary details. I've had a few sleepless nights, and the more tired I am the more I ramble. That probably is the case with some who are rating Head Hunters -- I haven't had the chance to look at that page (if collabs, then that has greater effect on the rating, of course, and I have seen collabs rate based on their prog expectations). I would rate the three Hancock albums which follow Head Hunters higher, plus the Mwandishi trilogy, plus some 60s ones, not because it's less Prog or progressive really, but simply because I find the others more satisfying. I would still give Head Hunters a very good grade, and do enjoy it (I love funky music and groove). I wouldn't follow the practice of rating based on how Prog an album is (Prog does mean quite different things to different people -- we bring our own expectations), or, and this has bothered me in the ratings decriptions, I wouldn't rate based on how rock an album is. I actually value the progressive part more than the rock part, as I consider myself to be more of a progressive music than progressive rock admirer, but, whatever.. I think it better to rate an album on your perceived quality or value of it and how much one likes it than on questions of progginess or suitability to the site and/ or its category (especially basing a rating on how much one likes an album, which is the only way I have rated albums -- I think one can be in difficult waters when trying to judge quality overmuch, just as it is to judge prog qualities,, and such attempts can really be very subjective. There are albums that I think accomplished but dislike the musical idiom, so if I were more of a rater/ reviewer I wouldn't want to give really low scores just based on my taste). It's not surprising at a site like this that the (I don't even like the word Prog to describe the wide Prog umbrella music that PA carries) albums that have more in common with prog (proggier) commonly will rate higher than in other music communities because of the tastes at a Prog site and that reviews do reflect tastes, but I have seen too many reviews for my tastes here where the reviewer marked down albums just because he/she didn't think they are Prog, and to me that is silly -- there was a long discussion on this before that I should find to link to. I think that we should officially alter the applicable stated expectations on rating (the rating criteria) -- that whole thing should be changed. Instead of 
Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music", I would change it to something like Yowza! Totally essential to my collection, which is explicity subjective in nature. |
Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: October 27 2011 at 15:08
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^ You hit the nail on the head with that last paragraph! Also, if I hate an album, I won't hesitate to give it one star even if it's highly innovative; if the innovation somehow doesn't move me, I'm not interested. That's rare anyway though, because I know myself enough not to buy albums I think I'll hate. ------------- http://www.thefreshfilmblog.com/" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: October 27 2011 at 17:55
Its not so much that they prefer Sextant. Its much more known, but not nessecarely preferred by those who know both. I don't think of Head Hunters as commercial. It was just the right album at the right time. The "commercial" On the Corner could be least favorite Miles Davis album because of the endless repetitive funk rhytms that seem to go nowhere. To me Headhunters is a real struggle to listen to for similar reasons. At times these catchy tracks hurts my ears, unlike many avantgarde jazz compositions. But I have no problem with commercial music. I like ELO, ABBA, Carpenters, Monkees. Bee Gees... |
Posted By: The-time-is-now
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 10:22
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Genesis.
-------------  One of my best achievements in life was to find this picture :D |
Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 11:08
------------- http://www.thefreshfilmblog.com/" rel="nofollow">
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But Head Hunters is my favourite! With music of that style, I think the repetitive nature is actually essential. E.g. The whole point of Chameleon would not be achieved in 2 minutes. I guess it's personal opinion. Do you like James Brown?