Genesis vs. Death - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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Padraic

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Posted: June 15 2011 at 22:22

Just....wow.

Andy Webb

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Posted: June 15 2011 at 22:22

ikr haha

Alitare

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Posted: June 15 2011 at 22:43

It kinda depresses me. Is English Ivan's native language? I never thought I'd do this, but my feelings drag me over to Ivan's side.

He never said Death metal sucked - just that he didn't like it or respect it. Why does it matter he respect Death? I don't respect any musicians or bands. I love Death, and I love many musicians/bands, but I can't think of any I'd respect. They're all humans to me, who probably cheat on their wives or dream about it, or who'd steal the candy from a laughing baby's mouth. Not that NOT doing these things would garner my respect. I'll respect Robert Fripp when he shows up to take me out for a coffee when I'm feeling f**king awful about my day.

As soon as Dave Mustaine sends me a feel better card, writing and coloring it himself (with either Roseart or Crayola, I'm not a hater), and personally shows care for me, I'll respect the sh*t out of him. I don't disrespect Death or Genesis, but I don't respect them, either.

Sometimes I think many PA members forget that a great deal of our membership either cannot speak English or cannot speak it as fluently as their native language, or just in general, even on level linguistic ground, text conversations can lack very much that is essential to proper mutual understanding.

At the end of the day, I don't ethically or morally care if you all want to gang up and ad hominem Ivan into oblivion - go right ahead. But I don't recall him saying that death metal or Death were universally/intrinsically/scientifically inferior to symphonic prog or Genesis. That I don't recall at all. Obviously he likes one band more than the other. If nobody did, why would this poll even have been created?

Gosh I'm depressed tonight.

The T

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Posted: June 15 2011 at 22:57

You all have to know and understand Ivan. He's not a metal fan, he's quite conservative, he probably has never heard more than two or three death metal bands for more than two or three minutes to be able to tell the difference. He will never do it. For anyone with ears, Death (the band) sounds quite different from, say, Morbid Angel, Carcass, Obituary, Benediction, etc. But it's easier and safer to say they all sound the same. Now, in the "noise" part, well, there's real art music that also contains noise (REAL noise) so that attack is not really too effective. Ivan's contempt for most (not all) metal is understandable and the reason why he threw the snart comment that I replied originally. Of course, in the metal world, fans would ask "Who the hell is Genesis?" This is a prog forum and many prog fans are really from a distant era...

Now it's not the place to disrespect Genesis either (like Caio almost did, ignoring what they are). Genesis, in my view, is by far the better band (they are my favorite band in all rock anyway, on par with DT) but Death was an amazing group that made revolutionary metal music. To the Caesar what belongs to the Caesar.

And really, don't bring popularity into this. The only place where Death will win is in a metal environment. In the big scheme of things, Genesis was 100000 times more popular. Which, my love of Genesis notwithstanding, doesn't really mean a thing.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: June 15 2011 at 23:50

The T wrote:

You all have to know and understand Ivan. He's not a metal fan, he's quite conservative, he probably has never heard more than two or three death metal bands for more than two or three minutes to be able to tell the difference.

That's not truth Theo, Guigo knows this because he's also in a Spanish email Prog group with me, all of the guys (except Guigo because he lives in Brazil and a couple of Colombian guys) join very frequently to listen music and watch videos.

8 out of 10 of this guys like Metal as much as they like Prog, so we reached an agreement to listen as much Metal as Prog, we've seen Children of Bodom, Crimson Death, Disillusion, Massacre, Morbid Angel, etc videos...Sometimes for hours, because we join at least twice a month (In the past months I been too busy but until summer we did it constantly), but still, no matter how hard I try (because they are my friends and I want to enjoy the music sessions), I can't see great difference between this bands.

BTW: I'm not remotely as conservative as you paint me, most of the Prog I listen lately is from the XXIst Century, since Moonjune Record sends me albums constantly, I learned to enjoy experimental Jazz like Simak Dialog, Tohpati Etnomission or Slivovitz (one of the weirdest bands you can imagine)and even some incredibly bizarre Avant bands as The Red Masque or Factor Burzaco.

The T wrote:

He will never do it. For anyone with ears, Death (the band) sounds quite different from, say, Morbid Angel, Carcass, Obituary, Benediction, etc. But it's easier and safer to say they all sound the same.

No Theo, it's easier and safer to keep quiet and don't say what you think, but that's not my style.

The T wrote:

Now, in the "noise" part, well, there's real art music that also contains noise (REAL noise) so that attack is not really too effective. Ivan's contempt for most (not all) metal is understandable and the reason why he threw the snart comment that I replied originally. Of course, in the metal world, fans would ask "Who the hell is Genesis?" This is a prog forum and many prog fans are really from a distant era...

Of course there are, I constantly said that King Crimson´s Thrak is noise for me and that Gentle Giant is complexity for the sake of complexity, and I'm not from a distant era, I started to listen Prog when I was 12 in the late 70's.

The T wrote:

Now it's not the place to disrespect Genesis either (like Caio almost did, ignoring what they are). Genesis, in my view, is by far the better band (they are my favorite band in all rock anyway, on par with DT) but Death was an amazing group that made revolutionary metal music. To the Caesar what belongs to the Caesar.

This is not the place to disrespect any band, you won't listen me saying "X band is crap" or "All the Metal listeners are idiots" , but I can say "I don't like X band" or even say "X and Y bands sound almost exactly the same".

Many people say Triumvirat are cheap clones of ELP, IMO they are absolutely different, but that's my opinion, I'm able to find that difference, but I would never insult anybody for believing they are exact.

The T wrote:

And really, don't bring popularity into this. The only place where Death will win is in a metal environment. In the big scheme of things, Genesis was 100000 times more popular. Which, my love of Genesis notwithstanding, doesn't really mean a thing.

That was my point when somebody said that Genesis was an unsuccessful band.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 16 2011 at 00:09

harmonium.ro View Drop Down

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Posted: June 16 2011 at 09:35

Good thread.

It has my own seal of approval.

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: June 16 2011 at 09:53

Protest the Hero.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Catcher10

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Posted: June 16 2011 at 09:55

I prefer being 'born' everyday over being 'dead' everyday.....

The T

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Posted: June 16 2011 at 12:25

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Protest the Hero.

I protest this. They're horrible.

The Pessimist View Drop Down

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Posted: June 16 2011 at 13:51

The T wrote:

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Protest the Hero.

I protest this. They're horrible.

Hey now... Why bring PTH into this?

"Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."

Arnold Schoenberg

CCVP

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Posted: June 16 2011 at 17:43

The T wrote:

Now it's not the place to disrespect Genesis either (like Caio almost did, ignoring what they are).

Quite so, I have been a bit too harsh on them, specially concerning that this is a progressive ROCK site, but I hardly believe putting my point more politely would change its substance.

Anyway, I'm impressed it spawned such an interesting conversation. (and I'm being 100% honest here)

Edited by CCVP - June 16 2011 at 17:44

b_olariu

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Posted: June 17 2011 at 01:25

I see some stupid replies to this poll, some dudes doesn't know a crap about prog music. even I like and I'm big fan of both bands, I still prefer Genesis, what they release between 1970-1980 is essential

Harry Hood View Drop Down

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Posted: June 17 2011 at 01:34

Death aren't a death metal band. Chuck himself denied taking credit for the death metal genre, even though he's obviously one of the biggest influences (the genre being named after his band and all).

While Death use a lot of metal tropes and aesthetics, I feel like they have a lot more in common with Jazz. Death are a jazz band. "Individual Thought Patterns" is a jazz album.

And in that regard, they really have very little in common with Genesis, who have virtually nothing to do with jazz.

"Death vs. Hatfield & The North" would make for a better poll.

(And now I can't unhear Chuck singing "Share It" in my head)

Edited by Harry Hood - June 17 2011 at 01:38

Drew

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Posted: June 17 2011 at 01:38

b_olariu wrote:

I see some stupid replies to this poll, some dudes doesn't know a crap about prog music. even I like and I'm big fan of both bands, I still prefer Genesis, what they release between 1970-1980 is essential

most of us post/enjoy "stupid" posts. Unhappy

Give me one thread where someone is NOT off topic or silly.....

Chill out bro.

Gandalff

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Posted: June 17 2011 at 02:54

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

The T wrote:

For someone who can find obscure legal documents about any subject in any language, I'm amazed you haven't yet mastered the art of "googling"' or even more so, looking in your own favorite prog-rock website's database...

I guess it's just contempt for metal.

Of course I searched Theo...What I mean is who are they to be compared with Genesis. Evil Smile

Iván

Look at my first post, it´s thought more or less as a parody to "Band vs. Band" polls, according to beginning and end of human life. Just for fun.

I know, these two bands are just like apples and oranges to compare, thus I´m surprised by such many "fervent" replies for this topic.

A Elbereth Gilthoniel
silivren penna míriel
o menel aglar elenath!
Na-chaered palan-díriel
o galadhremmin ennorath,
Fanuilos, le linnathon
nef aear, sí nef aearon!

b_olariu

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Posted: June 17 2011 at 05:55