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thehallway 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 13 2010
Location: Dorset, England
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Points: 1433
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 Posted: May 05 2011 at 05:27 |
 King Crimson776 wrote:
Alitare wrote:
Valentino wrote:
Alitare wrote:
How can anybody relate with Close to the Edge on a personal or emotional level? |
Very easily.
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Can you walk me through it, step by step? What am I missing? Why doesn't it make me weep or shake with emotion and intimate feeling? |
The "I Get Up I Get Down" section and the instrumental part immediately after give me that awe-inspired feeling... I don't know if that is what you're counting as emotion. Perhaps that is "intellectual" more than emotional. |
Although I understand Alitare's criticisms with the other songs he mentioned, Close to the Edge is actually very personal and emotional. It's about Siddhartha...... a real man! His struggle for enlightenment documented in the song, with it's highs and lows (I get up, I get down) and climax, is something I can relate to and many others have related to. We all go through difficulties, on our paths (whether they're paths for enlightenment, love, work, whatever....) and we all get up and we all get down, sometimes. Close to the Edge (the whole album) is far closer to reality for me than some other Yes lyrics and indeed, most other prog bands centered around fantasy. The lyrics are cryptic and make little sense, yes, but that only makes them more adaptable to our own lives. With some thought I can make what Jon Anderson is singing very personal to me and my life. I certainly can't do that with Peter Gabriel's endless puns or Greg Lake's cringeworthy battles with armadillo-hybrids and computers!
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Fyrus
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Joined: January 13 2011
Location: US
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Points: 44
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Posted: May 07 2011 at 14:18 |
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Poor lyrics? That goes from never to rarely. Comparing progressive band lyrics to lyrics from other genres... masterpieces!
I think Progressive music may have the stigma for having bad singers. While I don't agree with this, I can see where it comes from.
Never bad lyrics though.
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Alitare
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Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
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Points: 3595
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Posted: May 07 2011 at 17:15 |
Fyrus wrote:
Poor lyrics? That goes from never to rarely. Comparing progressive band lyrics to lyrics from other genres... masterpieces!
I think Progressive music may have the stigma for having bad singers. While I don't agree with this, I can see where it comes from.
Never bad lyrics though.
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NEVER bad?
Rush - Twilight Zone: You wake up lost in an empty town
Wondering why no one else is around
Look up to see a giant boy
You've just become his brand new toy
No escape, no place to hide
Here where time and space collide
I could write better in my sleep, good god! 'you've just become his brand new toy!?' Oh golly. Not to mention all the times Peart butchered Ayn Rand's already obnoxious philosophical ideals, not that Rush had philosophical depth in the first place.
Or how about Styx's chef-d'oeuvre, Mister Roboto? I am the modern man, (Secret secret, I've got a secret)
Who hides behind a mask, (Secret secret, I've got a secret)
So no one else can see, (Secret secret, I've got a secret)
My true identity! Domo Arigato Mr Roboto!
Or what about that awfully banal 'poetry' from Moody Blues? Cold hearted orb
That rules the night
Removes the colours
From our sight
Red is gray and
Yellow white
But we decide
Which is right
And which is an Illusion
Gosh that sure is reminiscent of Tennyson, huh?
But I'm certain you think these are absolute wonderments of written word, yes?
And then there's prog metal, good lordy. All those progressive death metal song lyrics? I am NOT saying ALL prog lyrics are bad, hardly. I'm just saying I hate 9/10ths of all lyrics from any genre.
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The Dark Elf
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Location: Michigan
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Posted: May 07 2011 at 17:40 |
Alitare wrote:
NEVER bad?
Or what about that awfully banal 'poetry' from Moody Blues?
Cold hearted orb
That rules the night
Removes the colours
From our sight
Red is gray and
Yellow white
But we decide
Which is right
And which is an Illusion
Gosh that sure is reminiscent of Tennyson, huh?
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I would suggest that the Moody's "Late Lament" (a stanza of which you quoted above) is fundamentally good poetry, particularly in conjunction with the stirring ending of the album Days of Future Passed. The opening section...
Breathe deep the gathering gloom,
Watch lights fade from every room.
Bedsitter people look back and lament,
Another day's useless energy spent.
Impassioned lovers wrestle as one,
Lonely man cries for love and has none.
New mother picks up and suckles her son,
Senior citizens wish they were young.
...is accompanied with a marvelous orchestral arrangement which mirrors the poem. It works wonderfully and is perhaps the high point of a superb album. As far as Tennyson, from a personal standpoint I find much of his work pompous and overblown, with an overwrought melancholy lifted directly from Keats. But then, Tennyson wasn't as bad as Longfellow or Wordsworth, who have been known to torture readers by the canto.
Edited by The Dark Elf - May 07 2011 at 17:41
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Fyrus
Forum Groupie
Joined: January 13 2011
Location: US
Status: Offline
Points: 44
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Posted: May 07 2011 at 20:10 |
Alitare wrote:
NEVER bad?
Rush - Twilight Zone: You wake up lost in an empty town
Wondering why no one else is around
Look up to see a giant boy
You've just become his brand new toy
No escape, no place to hide
Here where time and space collide
I could write better in my sleep, good god! 'you've just become his brand new toy!?' Oh golly. Not to mention all the times Peart butchered Ayn Rand's already obnoxious philosophical ideals, not that Rush had philosophical depth in the first place.
Or how about Styx's chef-d'oeuvre, Mister Roboto? I am the modern man, (Secret secret, I've got a secret)
Who hides behind a mask, (Secret secret, I've got a secret)
So no one else can see, (Secret secret, I've got a secret)
My true identity! Domo Arigato Mr Roboto!
Or what about that awfully banal 'poetry' from Moody Blues? Cold hearted orb
That rules the night
Removes the colours
From our sight
Red is gray and
Yellow white
But we decide
Which is right
And which is an Illusion
Gosh that sure is reminiscent of Tennyson, huh?
But I'm certain you think these are absolute wonderments of written word, yes?
And then there's prog metal, good lordy. All those progressive death metal song lyrics? I am NOT saying ALL prog lyrics are bad, hardly. I'm just saying I hate 9/10ths of all lyrics from any genre. |
Well that's your opinion. The question here is whether bad lyrics are a staple of the progressive genre. Comparatively, all the lyrics you mentioned are much better than most of what you find in other genres. The rush lyric you posted was word for word the plot of an episode of the twilight zone. I find that song to be quite catchy and fun to listen to. But that's just my opinion. Either way the only point you really have here is that you don't like most lyrics :p And I'm not sure Mister Roboto quite fits into prog... And prog metal! Listen to Pain of Salvation, which has the most intelligent and thoughtful lyrics I've ever listened to. But as I said, none of this proves that poor lyrics is a staple of the progressive genre.
Edited by Fyrus - May 07 2011 at 20:10
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Garden of Dreams
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 26 2011
Location: United States
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Points: 336
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Posted: May 07 2011 at 21:45 |
The portrayal of Rush lyrics do not accurately show the quality of Rush lyrics or progressive rock lyrics for that matter. The lyrics accurately describe the events of that twilight zone episode. If you want more meaningful Rush lyrics (which I doubt you want to as you seem to not be a fan), then listen to the lyrics from their four "fear" songs, "Subdivisions", "Limelight", "Spirit of the Radio", "War Paint", "Armor & Sword", "The Way the Wind Blows", "Faithless", "Peaceable Kingdom" and/or "The Pass".
You may not like the content but that does not mean they are written poorly.
If you are looking for an emphasis on poet structure than read poetry. Lyrics are very rarely poetry and poetry very rarely work as lyrics. Writing meaningful poetry with proper structure, rhythm and meter usually do not fit in context of the song's time signature and rhythms.
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Fyrus
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Posted: May 07 2011 at 22:00 |
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I still think Hemispheres is one of the best displays of lyrical usage around.
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Slaughternalia
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 17 2011
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Points: 901
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Posted: May 07 2011 at 22:10 |
The Blacksmith and the Artist
Reflect it in their art
Forge their creativity
Closer to the Heart
if that isn't the definition of cheesy, I don't know what is
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Alitare
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 3595
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Posted: May 07 2011 at 22:50 |
Garden of Dreams wrote:
The portrayal of Rush lyrics do not accurately show the quality of Rush lyrics or progressive rock lyrics for that matter. The lyrics accurately describe the events of that twilight zone episode. If you want more meaningful Rush lyrics (which I doubt you want to as you seem to not be a fan), then listen to the lyrics from their four "fear" songs, "Subdivisions", "Limelight", "Spirit of the Radio", "War Paint", "Armor & Sword", "The Way the Wind Blows", "Faithless", "Peaceable Kingdom" and/or "The Pass".
You may not like the content but that does not mean they are written poorly.
If you are looking for an emphasis on poet structure than read poetry. Lyrics are very rarely poetry and poetry very rarely work as lyrics. Writing meaningful poetry with proper structure, rhythm and meter usually do not fit in context of the song's time signature and rhythms. |
Lyrics don't work on a poetic level?
Leonard Cohen Bob Dylan Joni Mitchell Joan Baez Nick Cave Tom Waits Cat Stevens (at times) Jethro Tull
And when did I say I think all prog lyrics suck? My point was that SOME prog lyrics suck, and to think ANY prog song is more lyrically skilled than ANY non-prog song is pure nonsense. My goal wasn't to portray all prog songs, merely some pog songs with lyrics that blow cock. And since when did the catchiness of a song determine the lyrical quality? I love me some Janis Joplin, and she isn't worth dick for lyrics. Also, I love some prog lyricists, especially Devin Townsend, Pain of Salvation, Jethro Tull, Van Der Graaf Generator, and such. Maybe you don't know very much about poetry. :P
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Garden of Dreams
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Joined: April 26 2011
Location: United States
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Posted: May 07 2011 at 23:53 |
Based on your responses throughout the thread, I gathered that you are not found of a lot of prog lyrics, although I am wrong on that but you seem to show dislike to Rush lyrics with out regarding the vast majority of their output to prove your point. To me, that seems a little ignorant. You are correct about my lack of experience with poetry but my experience with lyrics have led me to believe that lyrics and poetry are not synonymous in the context of music. Lyrics tend to emphasize meaning and usually don't focus on the meter, number of syllables and other poetic devices. Not to say that is true for all lyrics though.
I did not say that catchiness of a song determine the lyrical quality. If I thought that then I would not listen to prog.
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Alitare
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 3595
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Posted: May 08 2011 at 00:16 |
Garden of Dreams wrote:
Based on your responses throughout the thread, I gathered that you are not found of a lot of prog lyrics, although I am wrong on that but you seem to show dislike to Rush lyrics with out regarding the vast majority of their output to prove your point. To me, that seems a little ignorant. You are correct about my lack of experience with poetry but my experience with lyrics have led me to believe that lyrics and poetry are not synonymous in the context of music. Lyrics tend to emphasize meaning and usually don't focus on the meter, number of syllables and other poetic devices. Not to say that is true for all lyrics though.
I did not say that catchiness of a song determine the lyrical quality. If I thought that then I would not listen to prog. |
You talked of catchiness in your defense of Twilight Zone. I've heard a great deal of lyrics from Rush. I detest what I've heard. Whether they are blabbering on about going bald, or butchering a philosophy they don't even seem to understand
(in 2112, Anthem), or vaguely attempting to say something poignant about life and it's foibles (Closer to the heart, Limelight, The Trees, Freewill) or a spewing a bunch of annoying space rock and teenage pothead sh*t (Cygnus, Twilight Zone (another art they seem to have completely misunderstood. It was never a focus on science fiction and crazy things. It was a means of telling philosophical, psychological, and emotional tales through the mere guise of science fiction, but ol' Peart and the gang think it's all about giant babies and empty towns and men with three eyes! Spooky!), Necromancer, most the rest of it.) I never cared for them, lyrically. It's not like I heard one song and said that was that I've listened to every one of their pre-1982 albums numerous times. I even LIKE some songs. (Current favorite is YYZ because it cuts out what I hate most).
Tell me, what are some brilliant Rush lyrics that are so deeply poignant and impacting and meaningful on numerous levels? Is it free will? "I will choose free will!". Isn't that the dumbest line ever uttered? If free will exists, you don't have to choose it, you just have it anyway, and if free will doesn't exist, then you can't very well choose it, so this lyric is insipidly pointless.
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Garden of Dreams
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 26 2011
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 336
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Posted: May 08 2011 at 00:41 |
My point about twilight zone was not the catchiness but their description of the t.v. series. It is clear that you don't like the fantasy/scifi lyrics but that does not necessarily mean they are bad.
I listed a numerous amount of Rush songs with meaningful lyrics (to me at least). Most specifically "Faithless" which and "Armor & Sword" which I personally identify with. "The Way The Wind Blows" also
Your annoyance with Rush lyrics has only been targeted towards "their pre-1982 albums" which leads me to believe that you don't know the majority of their work. Neil Peart's lyrics are not necessarily moving (most lyrics are not) but they are still relevant and discuss social topics that some at least enjoy.
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1791 Overture
Forum Newbie
Joined: December 29 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 33
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Posted: May 08 2011 at 03:06 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
Alitare wrote:
NEVER bad?
Or what about that awfully banal 'poetry' from Moody Blues?
Cold hearted orb
That rules the night
Removes the colours
From our sight
Red is gray and
Yellow white
But we decide
Which is right
And which is an Illusion
Gosh that sure is reminiscent of Tennyson, huh?
|
I would suggest that the Moody's "Late Lament" (a stanza of which you quoted above) is fundamentally good poetry, particularly in conjunction with the stirring ending of the album Days of Future Passed. The opening section...
Breathe deep the gathering gloom,
Watch lights fade from every room.
Bedsitter people look back and lament,
Another day's useless energy spent.
Impassioned lovers wrestle as one,
Lonely man cries for love and has none.
New mother picks up and suckles her son,
Senior citizens wish they were young.
...is accompanied with a marvelous orchestral arrangement which mirrors the poem. It works wonderfully and is perhaps the high point of a superb album. As far as Tennyson, from a personal standpoint I find much of his work pompous and overblown, with an overwrought melancholy lifted directly from Keats. But then, Tennyson wasn't as bad as Longfellow or Wordsworth, who have been known to torture readers by the canto. |
Rush and the Moody Blues aren't prog. Neither is Styx. 
Edited by 1791 Overture - May 08 2011 at 03:08
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JS19
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 10 2010
Location: Lancaster, UK
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Points: 1321
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Posted: May 08 2011 at 05:02 |
I think one of the reasons is because we listen to so much music from other countries and languages, the artist feel obliged to write in English, which may not be their first language. Often the lyrics sound a bit contrived and confusing. I don't blame them - I can't exactly write a lyrical masterpiece in French, so I don't expect them to in English.
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: May 08 2011 at 06:49 |
1791 Overture wrote:
Rush and the Moody Blues aren't prog. |
Then neither are Jethro Tull. Yes or Genesis. In fact, prog does not exist. It's a myth.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Alitare
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 3595
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Posted: May 08 2011 at 10:03 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
1791 Overture wrote:
Rush and the Moody Blues aren't prog. |
Then neither are Jethro Tull. Yes or Genesis. In fact, prog does not exist. It's a myth. |
Just like the Kennedy assassination.
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The Dark Elf
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Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
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Posted: May 08 2011 at 10:11 |
Alitare wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
1791 Overture wrote:
Rush and the Moody Blues aren't prog. |
Then neither are Jethro Tull. Yes or Genesis. In fact, prog does not exist. It's a myth. |
Just like the Kennedy assassination. |
If you look very closely at the Zapruder film, there is a guitarist on the grassy knoll next to the guy with the black umbrella.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: May 08 2011 at 10:21 |
Rather than being plagued by poor lyrics, prog is essentially more of an instrumentation-oriented style of music. As much as prog fans talk up their favourite prog singers - and there are some seriously talented ones like Haslam, Gildenlow - it is not the place where you'd expect to be drawn in emotionally by the vocals (regardless of whether the vocals are good or bad). Prog is more about intrigue and ambition and that necessarily means giving lyrics a sidestep sometimes. That is not necessarily a bad thing because instrumentation forms the backbone of great symphonies. But when it comes to prog, people continue to expect of it what they expect of the typical, short rock song format and feel disappointed. As for the quality of prog lyrics, it depends on the opposition you choose. Er, Genesis v/s Scorpions? Jethro Tull v/s ABBA? You can't really prove that prog always has poor lyrics or always has great lyrics because that's over-generalizing.
With that said, Fish writes first rate lyrics. I don't know about you - the OP - but the very line "in the playground of the broken hearts" is unforgettable for me and I don't even relate to or analyze lyrics all that much because I am more interested in the music.
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Alitare
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Posted: May 08 2011 at 10:25 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
Alitare wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
1791 Overture wrote:
Rush and the Moody Blues aren't prog. |
Then neither are Jethro Tull. Yes or Genesis. In fact, prog does not exist. It's a myth. |
Just like the Kennedy assassination. |
If you look very closely at the Zapruder film, there is a guitarist on the grassy knoll next to the guy with the black umbrella. |
Isn't he holding a copy of Catcher in the Rye, too?
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Garden of Dreams
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Joined: April 26 2011
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Posted: May 08 2011 at 10:43 |
rogerthat wrote:
Rather than being plagued by poor lyrics, prog is essentially more of an instrumentation-oriented style of music. As much as prog fans talk up their favourite prog singers - and there are some seriously talented ones like Haslam, Gildenlow - it is not the place where you'd expect to be drawn in emotionally by the vocals (regardless of whether the vocals are good or bad). Prog is more about intrigue and ambition and that necessarily means giving lyrics a sidestep sometimes. That is not necessarily a bad thing because instrumentation forms the backbone of great symphonies. But when it comes to prog, people continue to expect of it what they expect of the typical, short rock song format and feel disappointed. As for the quality of prog lyrics, it depends on the opposition you choose. Er, Genesis v/s Scorpions? Jethro Tull v/s ABBA? You can't really prove that prog always has poor lyrics or always has great lyrics because that's over-generalizing.
With that said, Fish writes first rate lyrics. I don't know about you - the OP - but the very line "in the playground of the broken hearts" is unforgettable for me and I don't even relate to or analyze lyrics all that much because I am more interested in the music. |
Well put sir. I love Fish's lyrics. Having meaningful lyrics add to songs but in most cases decent lyrics don't detract from the song. I still feel the music is more important than the lyrics anyway. I don't think I have heard lyrics that have drastically changed my life.
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Prog often Plagued by Poor Lyrics?
