Prog often Plagued by Poor Lyrics?
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Music Lounge
Forum Description: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=77949
Printed Date: November 23 2024 at 08:27
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Prog often Plagued by Poor Lyrics?
Posted By: prog058
Subject: Prog often Plagued by Poor Lyrics?
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 09:48
|
This could also be called the Fish appreciation thread. Prog bands, while excelling musically, are often lackluster in the lyrical department. Most prog musicians probably don't take an interest in language and literature, and this is probably the reason why. What are your thoughts? |
Replies:
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 10:19
|
yes ------------- What? |
Posted By: NotAProghead
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 10:28
|
I don't think that "Most prog musicians probably don't take an interest in language and literature". There are good and bad lyricists in any genre. Though in prog bad writers try to hide the lack of lyrical talent behind the wall of sounds and sometimes it works. Listeners telling "I don't care much about the lyrics" help these unfortunate ones not to die of hunger.  ------------- Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour) |
Posted By: Mushroom Sword
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 10:40
|
Pink Floyd's Animals is a great example of a good mix between great lyrics and sounds. But I've also observed that many rap songs use very interesting lyrics and combinations of words, because the music is dependent on them. With such a strong influence of Jazz and reliance on the skill of the musicians in "prog", The instrumental aspects need to be much stronger. I personally don't believe that the quality of lyrics is what makes me judge the music. And also, you could turn the concept around, "Does amazing lyrics make the music amazing?" No. Frank Zappa, some believe he's a genius writer, some find his lyrics a little embarrassing, it depends on what you consider, "good lyrics". I would say he is a great lyricist, but it doesn't make me enjoy the music any more. |
Posted By: The Truth
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 10:41
|
What's wrong with Fish? His lyrics fit the themes he's writing about perfectly. ------------- http://blindpoetrecords.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow">  
|
Posted By: nathan797
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 11:01
| Nothing wrong with Fish he writes very well in some peoples opinion mine included |
Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 11:15
You are joking, right?! There is no other genre of music that has so many concept albums inspired by literature as progressive Rock! I think that in general the lyrics in Prog are of a higher standard than in other kinds of music, and many Prog bands write lyrics that are a million times more interesting, poetic and sophisticated than what you find in non-progressive Rock and Pop. Then, of course, there are exceptions in both directions. |
prog058 wrote:Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 11:16
|
is this the right moment to say "Peter Hammill" or should I leave that for later? ------------- What? |
Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 11:48
Umm, what?  No RD Laing in Gentle Giant, eh? No Ayn Rand or Samuel Taylor Coolridge in Rush, eh? The overall OP premise is misguided. I don't think prog has any worse lyrics than any other genre. You want maybe they switch to hip-hop lyrics? Should Jon Anderson sing more about cappin' sucka's? Should Annie Haslam sing about havin' to keep her womanhood extremely tight? ------------- https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow">  https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 12:35
If you'd stick to instrumental prog this wouldn't be a problem. 
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
|
Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 12:43
|
I usually ignore lyrics, that's why I probably listen more to instrumental music and to Prog then to singer-songwriters. Also modern metal is a winner, as growls have the advantage that you can't understand the lyrics. In the Prog realm, it's only Hammill's lyrics that have intrigued me somewhat over the years. |
Posted By: Earendil
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 12:57
 You be crazy. Prog has more references to literature than any other genre. Besides that, prog lyrics in general are some of the most complex, poetic, and thought provoking! Listen to King Crimson or Van Der Graaf lyrics and tell me those couldn't be published in a poetry collection! |
Posted By: jmatos
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 13:02
| I think lyrics are important. Personally, I don't pay attention to them much, but if the lyrics are obviously bad, it can ruin the music for me. Ex: James LaBries solo projects. Pretty good music, but I couldn't say the same about the lyrics department. |
Posted By: NotAProghead
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 13:04
Thanks, now I know at least one advantage of growl.  ------------- Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour) |
Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 13:04
|
Yes, because Rush's adaptation of Ayn Rand's Anthem in 2112 was quite the poetic masterwork that rivaled the original in depth and intellectual intrigue. :P Didn't Rush write the song 'I Think I'm Going Bald'? I never assume that the lyrics to prog are more intricate than the lyrics to non-prog on the whole. Most folks can agree that Nick Cave isn't prog, but as a lyricist he veritably trumps Rush, any era of Genesis, Yes (my word) or the like. I detest most prog lyrics. The Moody Blues? That awful poetry? Days of Future Passed is one of my all time favorite albums, but that 'cold-hearted orb...we decide which is right and which is an illusion' tripe gives me gas. That doesn't mean that some prog bands don't have superb lyrics. Until he 'jumped the shark', so to speak, Ian Anderson was absolutely a brilliant lyricist in most rights. My question is, though, to do a few comparisons: (lyrically, only) King Crimson vs. Leonard Cohen Yes vs. Bob Dylan (this one made me giggle a little) Rush vs. Nick Cave Emerson, Lake, and Palmer vs. Tom Waits.
|
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 13:07
| This is why I listen to Pelican. |
Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 13:13
If a man quotes Atlas Shrugged, the Hippie counterculture, Nietzsche's Beyond Good and Evil, Edgar Alan Poe, 1984, the bible, and Tolkien all in one song,does it make the lyrics well written? For example: "Who is John galt? Who is John Galt Why did that man wanna Drag the world to a halt? Did he do it by the hour Was it his own WILL TO POWERRRRRRRR! Did he break machines with flowers Do you think it mighty dour? I swear he was the enemy Of he who fights the beast, you see Big brother's watching you and me And cain said to abel, he Was a silly blighter That hobbit, minstrel fighter The ring which made him lighter When sauron pulled an all-nighter. Did nothing more than save A bloody raven knave Who'd sent Lenore to her grave With a flapping winged wave. AND THE MEEK SHALL INHERIT THE EARTH! WE ARE THE PRIESTS OF THE TEMPLE OF... *fifteen minute jam session* Now that was a goddamn poetic masterpiece.
|
Posted By: Luna
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 14:05
 ------------- https://aprilmaymarch.bandcamp.com/track/the-badger" rel="nofollow"> 
|
Posted By: Wanorak
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 14:49
Fish's lyrics are great; very visual and at times very political. It's Fish's vocal histrionics that get very tired  Now Jon Anderson's lyrics in my opinion are just plain awful at times!------------- A GREAT YEAR FOR PROG!!! |
Posted By: 1791 Overture
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 14:59
Jon Anderson pretty much pioneered his own style of lyric-writing, though, what with the 'word painting.' And it's not just about the words, it's how you can match the phrasing and vowel sounds to create something interesting. Every time I hear
I can't help but think 'wow, that's really cool.' It describes the music so perfectly, and nobody else could do that like Yes did.
|
Now Jon Anderson's lyrics in my opinion are just plain awful at times!Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 15:07
|
Prog lyrics are not worse than in other genres, and frequently better than most. I think this is a misconception possibly because prog fans tend to salivate over technical instrumental prowess than lyric content. ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: Isa
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 15:19
|
It's pretty plain to me that (in general) most prog lyrics beat (in general) most pop/rock lyrics. "Back in black, I hit the sack it's been too long I'm glad to be back..." some would say this is superior to: "To stand within the pleasure dome, decreed by Kubla Kahn to taste anew the fruits of life, the last immortal man!" ... are you f***ing kidding me? ------------- The human heart instrinsically longs for that which is true, good, and beautiful. This is why timeless music is never without these qualities. |
Posted By: TheLionOfPrague
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 16:06
|
Well, Waters, Hammil, Anderson (Ian, of course). There are some awesome lyricists. ------------- I shook my head and smiled a whisper knowing all about the place |
Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 19:10
I AGREE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.
|
Posted By: prog058
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 20:01
I meant Fish is an exception. He's my favourite lyricist :) |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 20:06
|
I think Peter Gabriel and Ian Anderson are fine lyricists with a poetic flair, adept at wordplay and, in the case of Anderson, offered some of the best double entendres ever written in the rock idiom. They are certainly on a higher literary level than many crasser rock acts who Spinal Tap so wickedly satirized in songs such as "Lick My Love Pump" (in D minor). ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: prog058
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 20:12
I agree. I tend to listen to the lyrics more in other genres than in prog because I'm mainly interested in the music above all else. |
Posted By: prog058
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 20:16
The way most people seem to be handling this is singling out one or two prog bands with great lyrics and saying, well there you go. It's like singling out a missing fossil in the evolutionary record and saying, well it mustn't be true, all the while turning your back on the mountains of evidence. I agree with what you have to say here. It's good to see people on this forum appreciating more than just the prog genre :) But Ayn Rand is a pseudo-intellectual bitch that created a cult haha |
Posted By: prog058
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 20:23
Paradoxically, these two musicians have also made a lot of music that wouldn't necessarily be called prog |
Posted By: Garden of Dreams
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 20:23
|
Although usually lyrics aren't overly important to me, good lyrics add a whole new dimension to the song. Descent to bad lyrics don't necessarily detract from the music. However, some poor lyrics are can't be redeemed by the music. Overall, prog lyrics aren't bad compared to other genres of music. I have heard some awful pop/rap/metal lyrics.
|
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 20:27
Truthfully, the older I get the more confused I become about what "prog" is, or rather, what I thought it was, or perhaps the sheer amount of bands other folk have decided to pile into the genre. In fact, it's come to the point where I am ignoring the designation altogether.  ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 20:54
| Peter Hammill and Peter Gabriel are fine lyricists, and in fact, I'd even take Jon Anderson's lyrics over all of the bile today. |
Posted By: Slaughternalia
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 21:52
| Prog lyrics aren't great (ELP, I'm looking at you), but they get too much hate. They're not nearly as bad as the lyrics of today's pop music. |
Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 22:43
|
Okay, most folks say that they aren't as bad as today's pop lyrics. I can go you one further! A pleasant faced man steps up to greet you he smiles and says he's pleased to meet you beneath his hat, the strangeness lies Take it off, he's got three eyes (hyuck!) - Twilight Zone, Rush vs. In a way I need a change from this burned-out scene Another time, another town, another everything But it's always back to you. - Shattered, OAR And no, I am really NOT a fan of OAR (nice song, though). Here we go! I'll be the Round about The words will make you out and out I'll spend the day your way call it morning driving through the sound and in and out the valley! - Roundabout, Yes vs So scared of breaking it but you won't let it bend I've wrote 200 letters that I'll never send Sometimes these cuts are so much deeper than they seem You'd rather cover up I'd rather let them be - Misery, Maroon 5. Again, definitely not the biggest M5 fan (nice song), hell, I'd take Yes over them, musically...but I can't really say that the typical prog rock lyrics are my cup of tea. It seems like their sole purpose is to be as far removed from humanity and emotional resonance as possible. Again, I cite my love of Ian Anderson, Devin Townsend, (some) Peter Gabriel, Hammill, and such, lyrically, but...come on...how many silly space battles and (misguided) philosophy quotes will it take before they stop being little nerds who get boners to swordfights and laser guns and WWII horsefights and sh*t?
|
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 23:10
Almost all rock lyrics are terrible and prog is no exception. That's why you shouldn't listen to rock music.  I don't know how you can say that prog musicians aren't interested in literature, though.
Er, no.
I can't think of any prog songs with space battles, laser guns, and whatever the hell a "WWII horsefight" is. Can you? That is an accusation people frequently make but I've never seen it backed up. You're right about the pseudo-philosophy, though. Those OAR and Maroon 5 lyrics are pretty terrible, by the way. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Harry Hood
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 23:14
|
"Oh, Stanley Snail. Beauty begins at the foot of you!" ------------- 
|
Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 23:26
I was being all comical-like. I was speaking of Rush, Iron Maiden, Yes, and the like.
|
Posted By: Slaughternalia
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 23:45
It's purely subjective. Personally, I prefer my lyrics to be cheesy and fantastical, or to be completely nonsensical, than to remind me of the problems of reality.
|
Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 00:39
|
^^
Also, the lyrics "in and around the lake, mountains come out of the sky, they stand there" etc. become awesome in the context of the music (it certainly wouldn't pass as good poetry though). Whereas those other emo lyrics are bad by themselves, *and made even worse by the context of the music* Final verdict: Prog Rulez All
|
Posted By: Harry Hood
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 01:02
|
Lyrical content is so diverse in this genre that it would be strange to generalize something as "prog lyrics". While there are some bands who just write pretty sounding nonsense to fit the music, there are others who can write lyrics that are profoundly personal. Both styles have their merits within the context of the music. I'd love to hear a prog album with lyrics penned by John Darnielle. -------------
|
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 01:08
Heh! Speaking of Stanley Snail.... |
Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 02:00
| ^^ Better Yes impersonation than Starcastle or Glass Hammer could ever pull off, lolz. |
Posted By: prog058
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 03:25
|
At this point maybe the discussion has digressed from my original post to become a comparison between prog and pop lyrics. Of course Pop lyrics are going to be bad. For one, they have to conform to a particular cultural mode of the time. The subject matter has to be a select number of topics, and they are probably not helped by simple melodic structuring that doesn't enable too many multisyllabic words for instance. My forum topic was not to compare, but to take prog lyrics on their own, and by this I didn't just mean the lyrics of Yes, and Genesis, but of all prog bands, and to assess their literary value. By literary value I don't mean how many allusions to great literature they have, but from a critical standpoint, how poetic, or how effective are they? In the case of Yes, the imaginative, wild lyrics work alongside the music, but lets take other bands into consideration perhaps. I think apart from a few exceptions the large focus on musicality means that the lyrics often suffer. Do you guys agree? |
Posted By: KoS
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 03:29
| There is no such thing as good lyrics. |
Posted By: giselle
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 03:57
| Agreed. In general terms, I think the reason for that imbalance is that this form of music is about musicians and musicianship more than it is about writing or composition. |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 04:53
This! ^^^^^^^^^^^
 I do like Fish's lyrics on Clutching At Straws.
Stormwatch, Songs From The Wood, TAAB, A...like them all as far as the lyrics go. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: silcir
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 05:27
| Prog lyrics are usually bad. Not that i care, but that's true. |
Posted By: krimson62
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 05:35
| Lots of questionning about music and lyrics this week!!! |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 07:00
|
There are good and bad lyrics in every musical form, just as there is good & bad music. Prog is really no different. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 07:58
|
Derek Shulman is my favourite lyracist if the rumour is true that he wrote most to all of Gentle Giants lyrics
it have meanings and are well articulated
A Cry For Everyone lyrics Run, why should I run away When at the end the only truth certain - One day everyone dies - If only to justify life. Live, I've lived a thousand lives; And anyone is the right, the just life. If I could cry, I'd cry for everyone. Doubts, no doubt, is all I know. There is no fate, there's no luck, what does that show. Showing is proof, but proving is nothing but fear. If I could cry, I'd cry then for everyone. Hope, I've hoped two thousand years, but no one hears, so I've cried, crying vain tears. Always too late, too late to cry, cry for everyone. -------------  
|
Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 08:49
|
Some 'prog' bands/artists with lyrics I enjoy: Jethro Tull VDGG Peter Gabriel Pink Floyd (From Dark Side through Final Cut) Pain of Salvation Some 'non-prog' artists with lyrics I enjoy: Leonard Cohen Tom Waits Will Oldham/Bonnie "Prince" Billy Bob Dylan John Lennon Cat Stevens Tim Rice Modest Mouse Ween Flaming Lips |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 13:12
That, and the fact that lyric-writing is about as easy as writing a killer novel!! How many of us have ever done that, or even attempted to do it? It seems that, with very few exceptions, prog lyrics suffer when the writer attempts to be "too profound," or "too artsy." There are some remarkable lyrics in prog, I'm especially fond of lyrics on the Strawbs' albums "Hero and Heroine" and "Ghosts." However, some lyrics are just drivel....even though I knew the band Starcastle, I cannot defend the lyrics of the LP "Fountains of Light," which sounded like they were written by a Hallmark greeting card writer!! I think that, many times, the lyrics are the "tail that wags the dog" = the band writes a fantastic composition, and then has to find lyrics that fit with the music. Much harder than you might realize, I've done it with mixed results.
|
Posted By: silverpot
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 14:06
|
I'm surprised that so many people have such strong opinions about good and bad lyrics. How can you tell the difference? I'm not sure I can although I have a degree in literature. Roger Waters is universally hailed as one of the best lyricists but personally I can't stand his self pity, I very much prefer Joni Mitchell. It's all about what it is that speaks to you, not wether it's good or bad in a literary sense. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 14:19
| Progressive rock doesn't have poor lyrics; I think that the lyrics on the albums "Crime of the Century" and "Pawn Hearts" are very insightful, and Pink Floyd has some great lyrics also. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 14:52
|
Bowtie begins at the foot of you.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
|
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 14:56
|
Genesis King Crimson (well, most) VdGG Jethro Tull Gnidrolog Fen In the Woods... Pain of Salvation Opeth Madder Mortem Pendragon Marillion (both Fish and H) White Willow Also Eden Anekdoten Between the Buried and Me Black Widow Burst Ciccada Cynic Dark Suns Disilliusion Discipline Drawn Ebonylake Ellipsis The Fall of Efrafa The Gathering Gojira Ihsahn Intronaut IQ Isis Kayo Dot Mastodon maudlin of the Well The Opium Cartel The Pax Cecilia The Pentangle The Reasoning Riverside Rolo Tomassi Hookah the Fuzz Sieges Even Sikth The Sound of Animals Fighting Threshold To-Mera Tusk Vanden Plas Ved Buens Ende Virgin Black Yakuza What does this long list of bands all have in common? All of them have strong lyricists that perfectly match the music, or in a few cases exceeds the music. I dont expect everyone to agree with me, but I find the comment that prog has crap lyricists to be rather uninformed. And I have to ask, compared to what? ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
|
Posted By: Wafflesyrup
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 20:33
| Lyrics are human/societal. Music is universal. Humans are idiots. The universe... I dunno. |
Posted By: (De)progressive
Date Posted: May 03 2011 at 01:49
|
Devin Townsend's writing style is similiar to Frank Zappa's, sometimes quite absurd or humourous, but generally quite fits and blends with his music, and very intelligent lyrics.
------------- ''Hope is the first step on the road to dissapointment.'' (Friedrich Nietzsche) 
|
Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: May 03 2011 at 09:54
|
Just like every genre, there are good and bad lyrics (and good and bad lyricists)...... Now get over yourselves! ------------- http://www.thefreshfilmblog.com/" rel="nofollow"> 
|
Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: May 03 2011 at 09:59
| The dude abides! |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: May 03 2011 at 10:17
All the comparisons you're making are to singer-songwriters where the lyrics are the primary focus. I agree that it's hard to top someone like Bob Dylan for great lyrics, but if you compare prog to every other genre of music besides songer-songwriters (heavy metal, early rock and roll, blues, arena rock, hip-hop, modern pop, disco, country, grunge, etc.) I think it compares rather favorably. Also, you can find bad lyrics in even the greatest bands. "They asked me to read a poem at the sorority sisters' home. Got knocked down and my head was swimmin'. I wound up with the dean of women! Yippee! I'm a poet, I know it. Hope I don't blow it." - Bob Dylan "We all live in a yellow submarine, yellow submarine, yellow submarine." - The Beatles ------------- 
|
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: May 03 2011 at 10:43
|
Hey sometimes you can't even understand the bloody lyrics. Even the artists don't understand the lyrics themselves so how are we supposed to?
------------- |
Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: May 03 2011 at 11:39
|
Thank you Walter. ------------- http://www.thefreshfilmblog.com/" rel="nofollow">
|
Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: May 03 2011 at 11:40
The dog has f**king papers!
|
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: May 03 2011 at 21:05
| I don't think prog has particularly bad lyrics. Some bands have really great lyrics, some others not. Just as in any other genre, I guess. There's a lot of brutally terrible and bland lyrics in pop, and just about all talk about love (or more likely, about broken hearts). |
Posted By: prog058
Date Posted: May 04 2011 at 09:25
| To be honest, unless I'm taken by the lyrics I don't really notice them too much when listening to prog. I'm really in it for the music more than anything |
Posted By: himtroy
Date Posted: May 04 2011 at 15:31
|
I NEVER UNDERSTOOD THIS COMMON CRITICISM. You might not like prog lyrics, but they're miles beyond pop lyrics. I'd rather listen to somebody sing about something mythical and made up than here another song about a girl, or some other mundane garbage. There's more thought and originality in Zappa or Gong lyrics than there are in pop music (most rock music falls under pop music). This is not nam, this is bowling. There are rules!
------------- Which of you to gain me, tell, will risk uncertain pains of hell? I will not forgive you if you will not take the chance. |
Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: May 04 2011 at 17:22
|
But what about Prog versus singer/songwriter? What about non-prog experimental rock? (Ween, Flaiming Lips, Cocteau Twins, etc.?) I know most folks think of Lady Ga Ga or Nickelback or Shinedown when they think of rock and pop. I understand that. But when I think of pop, I think Cat Stevens, John Lennon, Carole King, or whatever. I absolutely hate lyrics about made-up mythical creature garbage. Where's the f**king human element in that hogwash? What's supposed to touch your heart and make you weep in Xanadu? What's supposed to blow your soul apart and give you despairing goosebumps in Gates of Delirium? What's supposed to break your resolve and bring tears to your eyes with Karn Evil 9? How can anybody relate with Close to the Edge on a personal or emotional level? I really like a few of these songs, but not lyrically or emotionally. Some folks think that all pop music is just series of shallow, emotionless love songs. Take a f**king cue from Will Oldham or Flaming Lips for once. Today was another day full of dread but I never said I was afraid Because dread and fear should not be confused By dread I'm inspired, by fear I'm amused.. And I say nip nap, it's all a trap Bo bis and so is this Whoa whoa, to haiti, go And watch it all come down. Ding dong, a silly song sure do say something's wrong Smile a while, forget the bile And watch it all come down Since when did lyricism and poetry have to deal solely with the most extravagantly pompous, wordy, and unrealistic scenarios possible? Most of my favorite lyrics are as far from prog as you could imagine. Ian and Hammy are different cases, but when it comes to the likes of Rush, Kansas, Yes, Genesis, and the sort...I typically despise the lyrics. It's okay, because I ignore the lyrics if I don't like them. I'd only focus on the notes he's singing.
|
Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: May 04 2011 at 17:56
| I'd rather hear about mountains coming out of the sky than whatever Dylan is rattling off most of the time. |
Posted By: Mista-Gordie
Date Posted: May 04 2011 at 20:21
| Dude youre totally crazy for me most of the greatest lyrics of rock music are from prog rock. |
Posted By: Mista-Gordie
Date Posted: May 04 2011 at 20:23
What are you doing in a progressive rock forum if you're always saying that you hate everything about that style? get a life man
|
Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: May 04 2011 at 20:24
I'll admit my enjoyment of Jethro Tull, VDGG, Peter Gabriel, and Pain of Salvation, but even I'll admit I prefer singer/songwriters to prog rock acts when it comes to lyricism. It's just that most of prog rock seems aimed at something other than my heart.
|
Posted By: Valentino
Date Posted: May 04 2011 at 23:13
Very easily. |
Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: May 04 2011 at 23:16
Can you walk me through it, step by step? What am I missing? Why doesn't it make me weep or shake with emotion and intimate feeling?
|
Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: May 04 2011 at 23:18
I have a life. So do you. Even if I didn't do anything, I'd still have a life. I'm here because it's a storehouse of music information. I just don't tend to love the big names around here. Maybe you ignored me when I said I loved Jethro Tull, Pink Floyd, Steve Hackett, Peter Gabriel, VDGG, and such?
|
Posted By: giselle
Date Posted: May 04 2011 at 23:42
A great example of prog being plagued by poor lyrics
|
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 05 2011 at 00:37
Iván ------------- 
|
Posted By: paganinio
Date Posted: May 05 2011 at 00:51
|
Ayreon and Blind Guardian (both listed as Progressive Metal on PA) completely changed the way I look at, listen to, sing, and understand lyrics. One is sci-fi futuristic, the other is Tolkienian medieval, but nothing is more truthful to the modern times than lyrics by those two bands. ------------- 
|
Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: May 05 2011 at 01:01
The "I Get Up I Get Down" section and the instrumental part immediately after give me that awe-inspired feeling... I don't know if that is what you're counting as emotion. Perhaps that is "intellectual" more than emotional.
|
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: May 05 2011 at 01:15
|
Oh sorry I read the title and thought it was the Yes appreciation thread... ------------- 
|
Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: May 05 2011 at 05:27
Although I understand Alitare's criticisms with the other songs he mentioned, Close to the Edge is actually very personal and emotional. It's about Siddhartha...... a real man! His struggle for enlightenment documented in the song, with it's highs and lows (I get up, I get down) and climax, is something I can relate to and many others have related to. We all go through difficulties, on our paths (whether they're paths for enlightenment, love, work, whatever....) and we all get up and we all get down, sometimes. Close to the Edge (the whole album) is far closer to reality for me than some other Yes lyrics and indeed, most other prog bands centered around fantasy. The lyrics are cryptic and make little sense, yes, but that only makes them more adaptable to our own lives. With some thought I can make what Jon Anderson is singing very personal to me and my life. I certainly can't do that with Peter Gabriel's endless puns or Greg Lake's cringeworthy battles with armadillo-hybrids and computers! ------------- http://www.thefreshfilmblog.com/" rel="nofollow">
|
Posted By: Fyrus
Date Posted: May 07 2011 at 14:18
|
Poor lyrics? That goes from never to rarely. Comparing progressive band lyrics to lyrics from other genres... masterpieces! I think Progressive music may have the stigma for having bad singers. While I don't agree with this, I can see where it comes from. Never bad lyrics though. |
Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: May 07 2011 at 17:15
NEVER bad? Rush - Twilight Zone: You wake up lost in an empty town Wondering why no one else is around Look up to see a giant boy You've just become his brand new toy No escape, no place to hide Here where time and space collide I could write better in my sleep, good god! 'you've just become his brand new toy!?' Oh golly. Not to mention all the times Peart butchered Ayn Rand's already obnoxious philosophical ideals, not that Rush had philosophical depth in the first place. Or how about Styx's chef-d'oeuvre, Mister Roboto? I am the modern man, (Secret secret, I've got a secret) Who hides behind a mask, (Secret secret, I've got a secret) So no one else can see, (Secret secret, I've got a secret) My true identity! Domo Arigato Mr Roboto! Or what about that awfully banal 'poetry' from Moody Blues? Cold hearted orb That rules the night Removes the colours From our sight Red is gray and Yellow white But we decide Which is right And which is an Illusion Gosh that sure is reminiscent of Tennyson, huh? But I'm certain you think these are absolute wonderments of written word, yes? And then there's prog metal, good lordy. All those progressive death metal song lyrics? I am NOT saying ALL prog lyrics are bad, hardly. I'm just saying I hate 9/10ths of all lyrics from any genre.
|
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: May 07 2011 at 17:40
Breathe deep the gathering gloom,
Watch lights fade from every room. Bedsitter people look back and lament, Another day's useless energy spent. Impassioned lovers wrestle as one, Lonely man cries for love and has none. New mother picks up and suckles her son, Senior citizens wish they were young. ...is accompanied with a marvelous orchestral arrangement which mirrors the poem. It works wonderfully and is perhaps the high point of a superb album. As far as Tennyson, from a personal standpoint I find much of his work pompous and overblown, with an overwrought melancholy lifted directly from Keats. But then, Tennyson wasn't as bad as Longfellow or Wordsworth, who have been known to torture readers by the canto. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Fyrus
Date Posted: May 07 2011 at 20:10
Well that's your opinion. The question here is whether bad lyrics are a staple of the progressive genre. Comparatively, all the lyrics you mentioned are much better than most of what you find in other genres. The rush lyric you posted was word for word the plot of an episode of the twilight zone. I find that song to be quite catchy and fun to listen to. But that's just my opinion. Either way the only point you really have here is that you don't like most lyrics :p And I'm not sure Mister Roboto quite fits into prog... And prog metal! Listen to Pain of Salvation, which has the most intelligent and thoughtful lyrics I've ever listened to. But as I said, none of this proves that poor lyrics is a staple of the progressive genre. |
Posted By: Garden of Dreams
Date Posted: May 07 2011 at 21:45
|
The portrayal of Rush lyrics do not accurately show the quality of Rush lyrics or progressive rock lyrics for that matter. The lyrics accurately describe the events of that twilight zone episode. If you want more meaningful Rush lyrics (which I doubt you want to as you seem to not be a fan), then listen to the lyrics from their four "fear" songs, "Subdivisions", "Limelight", "Spirit of the Radio", "War Paint", "Armor & Sword", "The Way the Wind Blows", "Faithless", "Peaceable Kingdom" and/or "The Pass". You may not like the content but that does not mean they are written poorly. If you are looking for an emphasis on poet structure than read poetry. Lyrics are very rarely poetry and poetry very rarely work as lyrics. Writing meaningful poetry with proper structure, rhythm and meter usually do not fit in context of the song's time signature and rhythms.
|
Posted By: Fyrus
Date Posted: May 07 2011 at 22:00
| I still think Hemispheres is one of the best displays of lyrical usage around. |
Posted By: Slaughternalia
Date Posted: May 07 2011 at 22:10
|
The Blacksmith and the Artist Reflect it in their art Forge their creativity Closer to the Heart if that isn't the definition of cheesy, I don't know what is
|
Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: May 07 2011 at 22:50
Lyrics don't work on a poetic level? Leonard Cohen Bob Dylan Joni Mitchell Joan Baez Nick Cave Tom Waits Cat Stevens (at times) Jethro Tull And when did I say I think all prog lyrics suck? My point was that SOME prog lyrics suck, and to think ANY prog song is more lyrically skilled than ANY non-prog song is pure nonsense. My goal wasn't to portray all prog songs, merely some pog songs with lyrics that blow cock. And since when did the catchiness of a song determine the lyrical quality? I love me some Janis Joplin, and she isn't worth dick for lyrics. Also, I love some prog lyricists, especially Devin Townsend, Pain of Salvation, Jethro Tull, Van Der Graaf Generator, and such. Maybe you don't know very much about poetry. :P
|
Posted By: Garden of Dreams
Date Posted: May 07 2011 at 23:53
|
Based on your responses throughout the thread, I gathered that you are not found of a lot of prog lyrics, although I am wrong on that but you seem to show dislike to Rush lyrics with out regarding the vast majority of their output to prove your point. To me, that seems a little ignorant. You are correct about my lack of experience with poetry but my experience with lyrics have led me to believe that lyrics and poetry are not synonymous in the context of music. Lyrics tend to emphasize meaning and usually don't focus on the meter, number of syllables and other poetic devices. Not to say that is true for all lyrics though. I did not say that catchiness of a song determine the lyrical quality. If I thought that then I would not listen to prog.
|
Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: May 08 2011 at 00:16
You talked of catchiness in your defense of Twilight Zone. I've heard a great deal of lyrics from Rush. I detest what I've heard. Whether they are blabbering on about going bald, or butchering a philosophy they don't even seem to understand (in 2112, Anthem), or vaguely attempting to say something poignant about life and it's foibles (Closer to the heart, Limelight, The Trees, Freewill) or a spewing a bunch of annoying space rock and teenage pothead sh*t (Cygnus, Twilight Zone (another art they seem to have completely misunderstood. It was never a focus on science fiction and crazy things. It was a means of telling philosophical, psychological, and emotional tales through the mere guise of science fiction, but ol' Peart and the gang think it's all about giant babies and empty towns and men with three eyes! Spooky!), Necromancer, most the rest of it.) I never cared for them, lyrically. It's not like I heard one song and said that was that I've listened to every one of their pre-1982 albums numerous times. I even LIKE some songs. (Current favorite is YYZ because it cuts out what I hate most). Tell me, what are some brilliant Rush lyrics that are so deeply poignant and impacting and meaningful on numerous levels? Is it free will? "I will choose free will!". Isn't that the dumbest line ever uttered? If free will exists, you don't have to choose it, you just have it anyway, and if free will doesn't exist, then you can't very well choose it, so this lyric is insipidly pointless.
|
Posted By: Garden of Dreams
Date Posted: May 08 2011 at 00:41
|
My point about twilight zone was not the catchiness but their description of the t.v. series. It is clear that you don't like the fantasy/scifi lyrics but that does not necessarily mean they are bad. I listed a numerous amount of Rush songs with meaningful lyrics (to me at least). Most specifically "Faithless" which and "Armor & Sword" which I personally identify with. "The Way The Wind Blows" also Your annoyance with Rush lyrics has only been targeted towards "their pre-1982 albums" which leads me to believe that you don't know the majority of their work. Neil Peart's lyrics are not necessarily moving (most lyrics are not) but they are still relevant and discuss social topics that some at least enjoy.
|
Posted By: 1791 Overture
Date Posted: May 08 2011 at 03:06
Rush and the Moody Blues aren't prog. Neither is Styx.
 |
Posted By: JS19
Date Posted: May 08 2011 at 05:02
|
I think one of the reasons is because we listen to so much music from other countries and languages, the artist feel obliged to write in English, which may not be their first language. Often the lyrics sound a bit contrived and confusing. I don't blame them - I can't exactly write a lyrical masterpiece in French, so I don't expect them to in English. ------------- 
|
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: May 08 2011 at 06:49
Then neither are Jethro Tull. Yes or Genesis. In fact, prog does not exist. It's a myth. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: May 08 2011 at 10:03
Just like the Kennedy assassination.
|
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: May 08 2011 at 10:11
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: May 08 2011 at 10:21
|
Rather than being plagued by poor lyrics, prog is essentially more of an instrumentation-oriented style of music. As much as prog fans talk up their favourite prog singers - and there are some seriously talented ones like Haslam, Gildenlow - it is not the place where you'd expect to be drawn in emotionally by the vocals (regardless of whether the vocals are good or bad). Prog is more about intrigue and ambition and that necessarily means giving lyrics a sidestep sometimes. That is not necessarily a bad thing because instrumentation forms the backbone of great symphonies. But when it comes to prog, people continue to expect of it what they expect of the typical, short rock song format and feel disappointed. As for the quality of prog lyrics, it depends on the opposition you choose. Er, Genesis v/s Scorpions? Jethro Tull v/s ABBA? You can't really prove that prog always has poor lyrics or always has great lyrics because that's over-generalizing. With that said, Fish writes first rate lyrics. I don't know about you - the OP - but the very line "in the playground of the broken hearts" is unforgettable for me and I don't even relate to or analyze lyrics all that much because I am more interested in the music.
|
Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: May 08 2011 at 10:25
Isn't he holding a copy of Catcher in the Rye, too?
|
Posted By: Garden of Dreams
Date Posted: May 08 2011 at 10:43
Well put sir. I love Fish's lyrics. Having meaningful lyrics add to songs but in most cases decent lyrics don't detract from the song. I still feel the music is more important than the lyrics anyway. I don't think I have heard lyrics that have drastically changed my life. |