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frippism 
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Joined: July 27 2010
Location: Tel Aviv
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Points: 4160
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 Posted: April 06 2011 at 00:21 |
Ahhhh I go to sleep and now I have three pages to try and respond to? Wahhhhh?
OK to clear up things I said and to agree with things that were said that are true and weren't included in the rant:
1. I did not say that it is needed to delete reviews of people who obviously hate a sub-genre. In fact that's the opposite of what I said. You can't judge by yourself how another reviewer reviews an album, it's not your review and it's not your right. With that, it is in my opinion between the reviewer and himself to think to himself why he disliked or liked the review, and only when they have a viable reason for them themselves, they can review them album. I wouldn't count "I hate growling" as a reason to dislike the album, or "I hate dramatic guitar solos". These reviews don't give readers the appropriate information on whether you liked or disliked the album, because you rather dislike all of the genre, or just because you know the genre and think the band could have done something differently not in their basic characteristics of the band (the band has growls shouldn't equal this band sucks). Bad reviews (I suggest) should talk about the constructions of the songs themselves, and how they have a problem with that. For example: "the song was way too long and was constructed only on one idea", "The guitar solo was rather weak", "The singer is rather ugly". Of course these are still opinions! I mean you really can't change that. But with that there opinions which are suitable, and come from people who respect the genre and know more or less what to expect from the genre, and don't only hate the album because the albums from this sub-genre have a gigantic carrot for a CD case!
2. Returning to the first point made by lazland, who definitely has a point, I'm not saying to cross an x over a whole sub-genre (though I'm a bit guilty in that field, yes). If I would review a neo-prog album, though, I wouldn't complain on something that annoys me that is a trait to most neo-prog. A neo-prog appreciator would be more useful to see what's good and what's bad in the album, as he would be able to see beyond the basic characteristics of the album, which a neo-prog... hater like me (admitted) wouldn't be able to see through and would immediately deem the album bad, without really giving a good reason. Though if I do listen to a Neo-prog album, and do see beyond the sounds (and the general compositional ideology. It sounds so fancy...) then I will review the album based on the songs and the album and how they we are constructed, and in that way lazland does have a point. So without a doubt people should check out other genres (something I should do too), but don't go around bashing albums because you dislike and don't understand the sub-genre (things I'm tempted sometimes to do).
Edited by frippism - April 06 2011 at 00:22
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Man Overboard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 07 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Status: Offline
Points: 3830
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Posted: April 06 2011 at 00:27 |
So, I get the impression that most of the people contributing in this thread (and by that I mean pages 1 and 3, perhaps I should read page 2 before speaking so boldly) aren't the people the OP is calling out. Yes, ignorant people reviewing things willfully ignorantly is stupid. Yes, it's easy to spot when someone is just trolling. Not my place to recommend discipline, but such behavior does bring down the Archives, especially on the instances it fills the first page.
In the end, this problem is much more problematic in the mainstream press. Whether it's books, music, videogames, or film, seeing a prominent reviewer slamming a work while so completely obviously missing even the basics of what -makes- the genre ensures that said genre will remain niche to the public at large.
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frippism
Collaborator
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Joined: July 27 2010
Location: Tel Aviv
Status: Offline
Points: 4160
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Posted: April 06 2011 at 00:31 |
 toroddfuglesteg wrote:
Being a "progressive" person is the same as listening to sub genres you don't automatic like at the beginning. Like me when listening to Zeuhl. The suggestion here is that we should become "regressive" instead of "progressive".
Sorry, but I could not disagree more. I would urge anyone to listen to and review as many albums from genres which really challenge and "progress" your mind. Listen to Zeuhl and listen to the more challenging part of the Canterbury bands. Bands like Soft Machine. Don't seek shelter under your own bed. Be brave. Be progressive. ............. And that was a political broadcast from the Progressive Prog Party......... |
Is Neo-prog progressive? That's a whole topic in itself already. With that I agree with what you say. I will be brave! I'm still under my bed though, screw it I have a hot tub there!
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frippism
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 27 2010
Location: Tel Aviv
Status: Offline
Points: 4160
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Posted: April 06 2011 at 00:35 |
Man Overboard wrote:
So, I get the impression that most of the people contributing in this thread (and by that I mean pages 1 and 3, perhaps I should read page 2 before speaking so boldly) aren't the people the OP is calling out. Yes, ignorant people reviewing things willfully ignorantly is stupid. Yes, it's easy to spot when someone is just trolling. Not my place to recommend discipline, but such behavior does bring down the Archives, especially on the instances it fills the first page.
In the end, this problem is much more problematic in the mainstream press. Whether it's books, music, videogames, or film, seeing a prominent reviewer slamming a work while so completely obviously missing even the basics of what -makes- the genre ensures that said genre will remain niche to the public at large. |
A niche to the public at large. Are the users of PA public at large? I'd at least like to think not, though it might be true. There is sort of "mainstream" prog (more specifically bands), and there's the unknown even less mainstream prog. But with that I'd expect PA users to be more understanding of genres that are less reviewed such as RIO/Avant-prog. And even if they aren't (like I'm not understanding to neo-prog), don't review the album if you clearly just don't get it.
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friso
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 24 2007
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 2506
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Posted: April 06 2011 at 01:36 |
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When I started out on PA I did conceive the 'charts' for the genres as leading instruments for getting more progressive rock. And yes, in many cases these charts are misleading (as with Krautrock legend Can) and I learned to read reviews instead. In the meanwhile I got to learn about who are my favorite reviewers, peoples with good writing skills and a similar approach to the genre.
With the more radical genres on PA we get to read a lot of non-sense with the more known albums indeed. "I really don't understand what this music is about and what people like about it" -> good reason for NOT writing a review. People should only review music they understand. Some reviewers are just too emotional about spending 10 bucks on an album they just can't acquire the tastes for.
Bottom-line. If you give low ratings, make sure you explain why and give the impression you really listened and understood the music. Then it's ok to review genres you don't like in my book.
Edited by friso - April 06 2011 at 01:37
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frippism
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 27 2010
Location: Tel Aviv
Status: Offline
Points: 4160
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Posted: April 06 2011 at 01:48 |
friso wrote:
When I started out on PA I did conceive the 'charts' for the genres as leading instruments for getting more progressive rock. And yes, in many cases these charts are misleading (as with Krautrock legend Can) and I learned to read reviews instead. In the meanwhile I got to learn about who are my favorite reviewers, peoples with good writing skills and a similar approach to the genre.
With the more radical genres on PA we get to read a lot of non-sense with the more known albums indeed. "I really don't understand what this music is about and what people like about it" -> good reason for NOT writing a review. People should only review music they understand. Some reviewers are just too emotional about spending 10 bucks on an album they just can't acquire the tastes for.
Bottom-line. If you give low ratings, make sure you explain why and give the impression you really listened and understood the music. Then it's ok to review genres you don't like in my book.
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Agree completely! More or less what I've trying to say...
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toroddfuglesteg
Forum Senior Member
Retired
Joined: March 04 2008
Location: Retirement Home
Status: Offline
Points: 3658
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Posted: April 06 2011 at 02:18 |
frippism wrote:
toroddfuglesteg wrote:
Being a "progressive" person is the same as listening to sub genres you don't automatic like at the beginning. Like me when listening to Zeuhl. The suggestion here is that we should become "regressive" instead of "progressive".
Sorry, but I could not disagree more. I would urge anyone to listen to and review as many albums from genres which really challenge and "progress" your mind. Listen to Zeuhl and listen to the more challenging part of the Canterbury bands. Bands like Soft Machine. Don't seek shelter under your own bed. Be brave. Be progressive. ............. And that was a political broadcast from the Progressive Prog Party......... |
Is Neo-prog progressive? That's a whole topic in itself already. With that I agree with what you say. I will be brave! I'm still under my bed though, screw it I have a hot tub there! |
Thanx ! I regard you as a highly esteemed person so I hope my reply did not come across as an attack in any form or shape. I started out as a Rush and symph prog fan and little by little, emerged from behind my bed to finally discover my alltime favorite band; The Soft Machine. Without ProgArchives; I would not had discover Soft Machine and the numerous hours of pleasure this band has given me. The same also goes for other bands and sounds I have discovered through ProgArchives. It therefore saddens me to see membership profiles or people on Facebook who only operates within 2-3 genres. In the name of the holy monkfish; use ProgArchives for all it is worth ! Our database is a F A N T A S T I C tool and a solid kick up our backsides. Most bands have Youtube videos. All genres has legally free downloads albums of an excellent standard.
Open your mind and become progressive. Leave your hiding place now. Rush ? I have to admit I never listen to them anymore....... I still have to open the last year's movie I bought. Hmm.... I better do it this weekend. That is shameful.
Edited by toroddfuglesteg - April 06 2011 at 02:20
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progrules
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 14 2007
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 958
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Posted: April 06 2011 at 02:30 |
moshkito wrote:
I will ask again ... we need to raise the level and quality of the reviews ... and the people in charge of each area, would be the ones responsible for making sure that the reviews are worth the salt and show PA as the quality, and the intelligent and information site that it can be and is ... but it is all buried in too much garbage!
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About this: I hope you realize PA-reviewers aren't professionals. In the guidelines it's not a demand to be a professional or great reviewer. The only request is to give ones opinion about an album, to do it in a fair way in good English. I agree there are sites and magazines with reviews that are 100 times better than those on PA. But that's what I like about our site: you can be just a poor and amateur reviewer and still get the chance to write your review. Isn't that great ? By the way: there is a report review thread in case you feel it's below any limit.
About the topic: I have been asking myself the same question more often and we even had a collaborator discussion about this and we couldn't really come up with a perfect solution. In fact there isn't one. It's basically a matter of how serious you want to take ratings and rankings. If you don't care about them: no problem. If you do it's a tough problem because indeed people who dislike the sub genre they often review harm and hurt the bands and albums they review and diminish the ratings. These people are a different kind of reviewer than the so called connoisseurs of the sub genre who are able to make the distinction between a good and a poor album within the sub genre. And that's actually what the bands in a sub genre need: to be reviewed and rated by the connoisseurs of the sub genre.
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A day without prog is a wasted day
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Kosmonaut
Forum Newbie
Joined: April 02 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 35
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Posted: April 06 2011 at 02:53 |
frippism wrote:
I've started quite a hooha when I reported a review of Cardiacs' "Sing To God" when the user posting that review reviewed/rated more than 70 (or more I don't recall) albums under the RIO/Avant-Prog genre 1 star. |
The problem here is obviously that this guy is an idiot. There's probably no cure for that though.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65681
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Posted: April 06 2011 at 03:15 |
moshkito wrote:
I will ask again ... we need to raise the level and quality of the reviews ... and the people in charge of each area, would be the ones responsible for making sure that the reviews are worth the salt and show PA as the quality, and the intelligent and information site that it can be and is ... but it is all buried in too much garbage!
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Try to think of PA as a kind of immigrant nation of free people governed loosely by volunteers; the whole point, indeed the primary reason for the site's success and gravity IMO, is the principle of not only open reviewing for all but the immediate publication in full (subject to guidelines) of said reviews. As a multicultural, spontaneous experiment in a community seemingly full of eager, smart and passionate listeners willing to help preserve and cast light on a normally ignored music, one must take the good with the mediocre. Further, an editor(s) might help the overall quality, but would not curb the influx of new reviews by new members.
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topographicbroadways
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 20 2010
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 5575
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Posted: April 06 2011 at 04:29 |
The rant translates to "don't post crappy reviews." Anyone can review any sub genre and if a review expresses an opinion well enough then there is no problem.
Don't post crappy threads either 
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ten years after
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 07 2007
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 1008
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Posted: April 06 2011 at 04:52 |
I remember a few years ago when The Australian newspaper, on the occasion of the 30th anniversary of Dark Side of the Moon, advertised that it had a full page article about the album. Needless to say i bought a copy (I don't normally - The Australian is way too right wing politically).
When I turned to the article I rapidly became totally p****d off. The reviewer wrote briefly about DSOTM and then went on at great length about how terrible progressive rock was, as a genre.
Now, everyone is entitled to their opinion but i was left wondering why the hell a paper would employ someone to write a review of an art form that they detested. Maybe they would employ the 1970s Johnny Rotten to write a review of a Mozart concert, but i suspect not.
My point is; if you know that you dislike an album before you have heard it, then you really should not write a review of it.
In other words, I agree with the author of this thread.
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topographicbroadways
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 20 2010
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 5575
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Posted: April 06 2011 at 04:55 |
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I'd say it's much different though when comparing a one off edition of a newspaper and a website with a diverse selection of reviews on each album. If there was just one review per album on this site then yes the author would have a point but with most albums you have at least a dozen different reviews.
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NotAProghead
Special Collaborator
Errors & Omissions Team
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: Russia
Status: Offline
Points: 7969
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Posted: April 06 2011 at 05:11 |
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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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frippism
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 27 2010
Location: Tel Aviv
Status: Offline
Points: 4160
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Posted: April 06 2011 at 05:50 |
Kosmonaut wrote:
frippism wrote:
I've started quite a hooha when I reported a review of Cardiacs' "Sing To God" when the user posting that review reviewed/rated more than 70 (or more I don't recall) albums under the RIO/Avant-Prog genre 1 star. |
The problem here is obviously that this guy is an idiot. There's probably no cure for that though.
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I agree with Notaproghead. That pretty much takes the cake. Though that wasn't really what I was talking about, more of a prelude... But I have still lol'd! And that's what matters.
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frippism
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 27 2010
Location: Tel Aviv
Status: Offline
Points: 4160
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Posted: April 06 2011 at 05:59 |
progrules wrote:
moshkito wrote:
I will ask again ... we need to raise the level and quality of the reviews ... and the people in charge of each area, would be the ones responsible for making sure that the reviews are worth the salt and show PA as the quality, and the intelligent and information site that it can be and is ... but it is all buried in too much garbage!
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About this: I hope you realize PA-reviewers aren't professionals. In the guidelines it's not a demand to be a professional or great reviewer. The only request is to give ones opinion about an album, to do it in a fair way in good English. I agree there are sites and magazines with reviews that are 100 times better than those on PA. But that's what I like about our site: you can be just a poor and amateur reviewer and still get the chance to write your review. Isn't that great ? By the way: there is a report review thread in case you feel it's below any limit.
About the topic: I have been asking myself the same question more often and we even had a collaborator discussion about this and we couldn't really come up with a perfect solution. In fact there isn't one. It's basically a matter of how serious you want to take ratings and rankings. If you don't care about them: no problem. If you do it's a tough problem because indeed people who dislike the sub genre they often review harm and hurt the bands and albums they review and diminish the ratings. These people are a different kind of reviewer than the so called connoisseurs of the sub genre who are able to make the distinction between a good and a poor album within the sub genre. And that's actually what the bands in a sub genre need: to be reviewed and rated by the connoisseurs of the sub genre.
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Again, I really don't mean to say stay out of genres completely. It's close-minded and stupid. What I am saying is that if you take out you hate on a sub-genre in one single album, then I will dislike you forever!
About the Sigur Ros album: I personally love SR very much, and of course already own Agaetis Byjurn (that's how you spell it? I really don't remember...) and so your review won't be hurting my opinion of the album, but for people who didn't listen to the album, and want to start with post-rock, your review will change their opinions one way or the other (Even if the number drops, it still makes a difference... Ahhhh Democracy!). It really depends whether you have strong points to whether you dislike the album or not. It shouldn't be something like (enter Post Rock stereotype here). But if you have a problem with the albums compositions more because of the songs themselves and how they are constructed and less because they have Post Rock characteristics you dislike, than review the album. In my opinion though, if you just dislike Post Rock in general, I wouldn't bother. Just leave it and carry on with life, and shout how much you dislike the album at your neighborhood clown or something, that's what I do, at least.
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frippism
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 27 2010
Location: Tel Aviv
Status: Offline
Points: 4160
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Posted: April 06 2011 at 06:20 |
toroddfuglesteg wrote:
frippism wrote:
toroddfuglesteg wrote:
Being a "progressive" person is the same as listening to sub genres you don't automatic like at the beginning. Like me when listening to Zeuhl. The suggestion here is that we should become "regressive" instead of "progressive".
Sorry, but I could not disagree more. I would urge anyone to listen to and review as many albums from genres which really challenge and "progress" your mind. Listen to Zeuhl and listen to the more challenging part of the Canterbury bands. Bands like Soft Machine. Don't seek shelter under your own bed. Be brave. Be progressive. ............. And that was a political broadcast from the Progressive Prog Party......... |
Is Neo-prog progressive? That's a whole topic in itself already. With that I agree with what you say. I will be brave! I'm still under my bed though, screw it I have a hot tub there! |
Thanx ! I regard you as a highly esteemed person so I hope my reply did not come across as an attack in any form or shape. I started out as a Rush and symph prog fan and little by little, emerged from behind my bed to finally discover my alltime favorite band; The Soft Machine. Without ProgArchives; I would not had discover Soft Machine and the numerous hours of pleasure this band has given me. The same also goes for other bands and sounds I have discovered through ProgArchives. It therefore saddens me to see membership profiles or people on Facebook who only operates within 2-3 genres. In the name of the holy monkfish; use ProgArchives for all it is worth ! Our database is a F A N T A S T I C tool and a solid kick up our backsides. Most bands have Youtube videos. All genres has legally free downloads albums of an excellent standard.
Open your mind and become progressive. Leave your hiding place now. Rush ? I have to admit I never listen to them anymore....... I still have to open the last year's movie I bought. Hmm.... I better do it this weekend. That is shameful.
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Really no offense taken, though I am a person of high esteem! I agree with you 100%. Progarchives is probably the most useful tool for finding new music I have ever encountered. To talk about the amount of band I have added to my Top 10 in a week (Including Cardiacs the absolute love of my life), who have come off and come back again is really staggering.
I too started as a sympho (like that abbreviation should use it more often), and Progarchives really helped me find the music I've been looking for. I was really tired and frustrated at the symph stuff I've been listening to and was looking for something different. And kapow! RIO/Avant section! Really changed my musical mindset, and now I can still listen to the symph stuff with more appreciation, though by now I'm definitely an RIO freak. If PA wasn't here I'd probably be still listening to Yes and Genesis only (nothing wrong with that, but definitely is nice to have variety).
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chopper
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 20033
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Posted: April 06 2011 at 06:22 |
Kosmonaut wrote:
frippism wrote:
I've started quite a hooha when I reported a review of Cardiacs' "Sing To God" when the user posting that review reviewed/rated more than 70 (or more I don't recall) albums under the RIO/Avant-Prog genre 1 star. |
The problem here is obviously that this guy is an idiot. There's probably no cure for that though.
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That's probably true. Why would you even listen to 70 albums in a genre that you don't like?
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mono
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 12 2005
Location: Paris, France
Status: Offline
Points: 652
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Posted: April 06 2011 at 07:32 |
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Moderating reviews.... NO!
Guidelines, Yes!
And guidelines = common sense. "useful for others" reviews.
In my opinion, a review saying "I hate growling so I hate this album" isn't so bad...
You know that the "mean score" represents very little relevant information, so just read a few reviews and you'll be better off.
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https://soundcloud.com/why-music Prog trio, from ambiant to violence
https://soundcloud.com/m0n0-film Film music and production projects
https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else
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frippism
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 27 2010
Location: Tel Aviv
Status: Offline
Points: 4160
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Posted: April 06 2011 at 08:26 |
mono wrote:
Moderating reviews.... NO!
Guidelines, Yes!
And guidelines = common sense. "useful for others" reviews.
In my opinion, a review saying "I hate growling so I hate this album" isn't so bad...
You know that the "mean score" represents very little relevant information, so just read a few reviews and you'll be better off.
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You're the one with the Opeth cover in your avatar and I'm more pissed off at it than you are! And I agree that you should read reviews, but with that, if you have to choose which an album of an artist to for first, wouldn't you go for the highest rated? So maybe the bad reviews are messing up what would've the highest rated? Who knows?
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
My PA rant: Stop reviewing sub-genres you dislike
Well said! I think we can close the discussion.