My PA rant: Stop reviewing sub-genres you dislike
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Forum Name: Help us improve the site
Forum Description: Help us improve the forums, and the site as a whole
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=77282
Printed Date: March 03 2025 at 07:03
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Topic: My PA rant: Stop reviewing sub-genres you dislike
Posted By: frippism
Subject: My PA rant: Stop reviewing sub-genres you dislike
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 14:19
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First of all- sorry if this is in the wrong place, wasn't really sure where to put it. OK carrying on: I've started quite a hooha when I reported a review of Cardiacs' "Sing To God" when the user posting that review reviewed/rated more than 70 (or more I don't recall) albums under the RIO/Avant-Prog genre 1 star. The discussion led to should PA members be banned for generally just reviewing a bunch of albums 1 star resulting from an obvious dislike to sub-genre (and being general jerks)? My answer in the end of the matter was no- you can't. Who am I are or anyone else to judge why review anything. Wiiiiiith that I think there is also a place to improve PA users judgement skills and make them a better PA user (in my opinion, of course) and in the end a better person! Because being a better prog reviewer leads to a better life! And my rant is this: DON'T! DO NOT! JUST DON'T REVIEW ALBUMS UNDER SUB-GENRES YOU GENERALLY DISLIKE. AND PARTICULARLY DON'T TAKE OUT YOUR DISLIKING TO A WHOLE SUB-GENRE IN ONE REVIEW OF ONE ALBUM, WHO DOESN'T DESERVE THE UNFAIR REVIEW. Back to library voice. Let me use an example: I rather have a disliking to Neo-Prog. Not only in its sound and melodic and harmonic compositional approach to music, but also in its composing ideology. And because I have a general disliking for Neo-Prog I DO NOT REVIEW NEO-PROGRESSIVE MUSIC. My opinions will not only hurt an albums rating average, but it will do so unfairly. All I will be able to write is why I dislike the album because I dislike Neo-Prog (enter general Neo-Prog stereotype here). Someone who says- "I enjoy lush keyboards and soaring guitars and long compositions", will not care for my review which will say "I don't like lush keyboards and soaring guitars and that's why this album sucks". Instead, this reviewer will be and should be interested in the opinions of those who like Neo-Prog as a whole, like many bands from Neo-Prog, and agree with the general Neo-Prog ideology. The people who enjoy and listen to Neo-Prog can give a fairer criterion (well it won't be perfect in any way, but fairer it will be) on whether the album is a good album or not, according to what a Neo-Prog fan would want to find in an album. So conclusion, if you simply review an album badly because you hate on a certain sub-genre, instead of why the album is good or bad according from someone who understands more in the sub-genre, generally appreciates the genre, and has a well and strong opinion on why this albums is good and why the album is bad. They shouldn't dish out some annoying fact like: " I hate growling= bad music/album"
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Replies:
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 14:24
| I feel for you, but I can't agree. |
Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 14:27
Go on....
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harmonium.ro wrote:Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 14:35
| That was it. |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 14:39
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I can see your point, but, as with Alex, I can't agree with it. What I would say is go ahead and review a neo prog album, but make it clear in your review that you dislike the sub genre and that this should be taken into consideration when reading the review. Even better, though, is that the better reviewers will put aside their personal prejudices and review/rate an album based upon the merits or otherwise of that particular piece of work. I will put my hands up here. I am now in the top 100 reviewers in terms of numbers of reviews, and I like to think that I abide by what I said above. However, I have been guilty in one of my earliest reviews of a terrible amount of personal prejudice, and that was for Yes' Drama, which I awarded the ultimate stinker of one star. I still dislike the album, but it is certainly not that bad, and when I have time, I will revisit that one, and uplift the rating to where I think it should be stripping aside my personal prejudice of a great band without one of my lifelong idols. However, free speech and all, you simply cannot impose a ban or rule such as the one you are suggesting, and, anyway, we are all pretty good at spotting the trolls, idiots, and general troublemakers  ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 14:39
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here here
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm 
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 14:41
i generally review albums I feel are 4 or 5 star albums, as I dont feel anything less deserves my time (thus just a rating will be used) unless it is something I despise by an otherwise enjoyable band/artist, but even then I usually just use the rating star system ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 14:51
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I can see your point and I DO agree. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 15:01
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Hi,
You know ... this place is a socio-democracy that has more ideas than you can imagine ... I have been asking for that to be looked at ... and all I get is ... this is a site where everyone has the input, not just a special group of people ... with one concern ... you would think that the people involved with (let's say) "krautrock" would ask Pedro to add/update a couple of things, along with BaldJean and such ... but it will never happen ...
I do NOT write reviews of films that I didn't care for. I do NOT write reviews for albums I did not think were "up to par" or "snuff" ... and even in the forums, I don't enjoy trashing groups themselves ... I am more likely to trash a person that thinks they like this and that and they do not really seem to know, or understand, what they just said ... or any idea of what they just said, or stood up for ... the brashness of youth ... sometimes it is magnificent for the arts ... but it's quite stupid in many other situations ... specially when they are totally idealistic!
I will ask again ... we need to raise the level and quality of the reviews ... and the people in charge of each area, would be the ones responsible for making sure that the reviews are worth the salt and show PA as the quality, and the intelligent and information site that it can be and is ... but it is all buried in too much garbage!
I'm predicting Snow Dog to tell me to shove off Shostakovitch! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 15:03
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Being a "progressive" person is the same as listening to sub genres you don't automatic like at the beginning. Like me when listening to Zeuhl. The suggestion here is that we should become "regressive" instead of "progressive". Sorry, but I could not disagree more. I would urge anyone to listen to and review as many albums from genres which really challenge and "progress" your mind. Listen to Zeuhl and listen to the more challenging part of the Canterbury bands. Bands like Soft Machine. Don't seek shelter under your own bed. Be brave. Be progressive. ............. And that was a political broadcast from the Progressive Prog Party.........
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Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 15:05
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There is nothing unfair about it. And if an album's rating gets lowered because of it's genre, or the affectations it's musicians adopt, so what? Ratings should reflect what all members generally think about an album, not just fanboys. ------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 15:06
What has "fanboys" got to do with it? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: QuestionableScum
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 15:12
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I understand the OP's qualms with people who review genres they dislike. But this is not because one should not review genres that one is not particularly fond of, but because often when people do review such genres, they do so in an unthinking way. I think when one reviews an album one has to step back and not ask how much do I like this, but is this a good album based on some more impersonal set of criteria. A reviewer needs to be able to distinguish their liking of an album, and what the album merits. Of course to some degree the two will be tied, but they are not the same, and one can recognize the value of an album that one is not particularly fond of, even if one does not find listening to it that enjoyable. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 15:14
They tend to write extremely positive reviews with high ratings.
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Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 15:20
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I tend to agree with the OP: - first of all such reviews are generally uninteresting as they rarely communicate more then the fact that reviewer X doesn't like genre Y or dislikes growling. Big deal. - secondly, a side-effect of this sort of reviewing is that it distorts the top album list for certain genres. To give an example: The only world-famous krautrock band Can has just 1 album in the top 25 Kraut albums. That doesn't make PA into a very reliable resource on krautrock. - thirdly, if reviewers (raters mostly) do this for a lot of albums, it's pathetic. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 15:23
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I don't even bother to review albums I consider 1 star. I've got better things to write about.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 15:27
I swear people answer me as if I know nothing. I need to take a break from this place before I blow a f**king fuse. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 15:29
Really now, you get the answers that your questions call for. It would have helped if you developed a bit.
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 15:31
But no one is saying that to people writing really bad reviews that they should not have done ... it's almost like they did it just to cut down the list of unreviewed albums ... not because they wanted to review it! But wanting to review something just so you can say ... it's ship de poopoo ... who is that person trying to impress with their knowledge in music? Me? Snow Dog? Dean? Harmonium? Walter? Torod? .... and basically, all reviews should pass the muster and the grade from all of us ... so that we can raise the level of ability and consciousness of what the PA is all about ...
We can let the Forums be the free for all and fun ... I can enjoy that ...
But when it comes to the reviews, the band information, and the links ... it can NOT be a free for all, and the information and reviews need to be guarded a little better so you can have a better control on the information and what you want tohelp the "progressive music" era with ... because right now, a lot of the reviews are not very good and it is making a lot of the very bands that we love not be as good as we think.
Suggestion also:
That the reviews be sorted? ... by album? ... I think that we might give Genesis the incorrect impression if the review is a bad one and calls it pop music, and the next review is a 50/50 and the next review is a glowing one for The Lamb ... and the next review trashes Lamd as pretentious and some idealistic jargon and what not ... !!! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Rune2000
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 15:32
I'm a man of statistics and therefore have nothing against bias, one way or the other, since it is filtered in the overall vote and actually makes the final album ratings more reliable. Unfortunately PA doesn't have that many albums with 1000+ ratings/reviews which does make biased reviews a problem. 
At the same time, I do find these type of reviews hilariously entertaining. Time well spent no matter from which side you approach it. ------------- 
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 15:33
I don't agree, the level to which PA is a resource on kraut is directly related to the information PA offers about kraut, not to where are the kraut albums in the charts.
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 15:33
How do fanboys reviews have any bearing on this threads contention? Not so hard to understand is it? Did I ask "What does a fanboy do"? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 15:38
Gulp! So the only thing you need to know about genres is in the genre description on the genre page? So why write any reviews at all if they are irrelevant  EDIT: not that I overvalue charts, don't get me wrong |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 15:41
Why would "information" not include the reviews?
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 15:43
You asked a VERY general question, so general that it doesn't even hint at what exactly are you thinking. Especially when the post you quoted says exactly what's with the fanboys - their ratings and reviews should be counterbalanced by the haters. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 15:43
Nahhh ... sometimes one just needs to send away the cynicism, and look in the mirror a bit ... the rest? ... not worth your time and effort.
If you blow a fuse, I guarantee you won't enjoy it ... ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: SaltyJon
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 15:43
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So let me try to get this straight...people should only review albums in genres they generally enjoy, therefore ensuring most bands/albums have a one-sided viewpoint on their value? That would be horrible, in my opinion. I don't review things in most subgenres because I don't have things in a lot of the genres, but as long as the review is based on the album's qualities rather than on the genre's qualities as a whole, I don't see it as a bad thing. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Salty_Jon" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 15:44
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For me it's about reviewing my collection(good and bad). Now i haven't purchased what i would consider 2 star albums on purpose(i'm not a completionist) but usually buy stuff when i see high ratings or it's been recommended by someone i know.Of course you get some duds in there because our tastes are all a little different. I must admit i feel guitly giving 2 and 3 stars to certain albums that are rated really high.I guess in the end reviews are just an opinion and you take them all with a grain of salt. ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 15:45
Ok I see what you mean there, but in fact you make the exact same point as me then. A newbie to kraut must read all kraut reviews because the charts are useless (due to non-genre fans reviewing the 'known' albums) |
Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 15:47
That would be brilliant, but I think the point of the OP is that many people do not have such attitude when reviewing genres they don't like. |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 15:47
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I hate Genesis with a vengeance. But I think I gave all of the Genesis that I bothered to review albums good ratings. You know why I hate Genesis ? It's because of Philly. I can't listen to the crap anymore. Unfortunately I can't listen to any Brand X albums with Philly on them either. Most tragically, I can't bear to listen to Tony Bank's The Two Sides Of Tony Banks very much anymore because Philly is on drums on most of the tracks. The only thing that allows me to tolerate it somewhat these days is the fact that Jan Akkerman turns over a great performance as a side man. Let me see? Does what I just said have anything to do with this thread? Not really. Doing reviews and bios for about 6-7 years here ( wow! That long?! ) I have only dished out two 1 star reviews and of those two, one is for Triumvirat's A la Carte catastrophe. Personally I prefer writing biographies where there is more possibility to give praise to artists rather ripping them to ratsh*t just for the sake of it. As Lazland points out the site is pretty good at weeding out the jerks.. I can't believe he gave Yes' Drama only one star. What a jerk. Just kidding Lazland  . I gave it a 5. It's one of my favourite Yes albums but I just took a look at the my review and it's a sh*t review. But so is your 1 star review. So we have a 2 crappy reviews for Drama here. 1 favourable and one unfavourable. So what does that say about PA?
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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 15:49
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I just hate it when I see people reviewing death metal or black metal albums and they hate growls on principle. That pisses me off. 9 times out of 10 they'll ignore the actual quality of the music and just say "I hate this noise - they should stop it" and other stuff like that.... that is a completely useless review IMO. Other than that, opinions are opinions. ------------- 
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 15:49
When I was a newbie to prog and found PA, I started exploring each category page, reading the definitions, trying albums from the genre's top rated, following the hints from their reviews, etc. The general chart had nothing do with my musical education here, but it was a lot of fun to observe it. |
Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 15:51
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^ I wasn't talking about the general chart, couldn't care less, I was talking about the kraut genre chart being totally bonkers. |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 15:56
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In a way I agree...but mostly for Rune's point. I'll take RIO/Avant just as an example. Many albums in that category don't have alot of ratings thus a 1 or 2 star review (esp from a collab) really brings the overall rating down. If the album is poor, thats one thing, of course. Not to call anyone who reviews disingenuous when they review, but there are people out there who don't seem to appreciate RIO/Avant (or insert your favorite sub here), yet they continue to listen to and review works from that category. Of course, one has to wonder why someone would continually listen to a genre they didn't care for....but thats another thread all together.
Lazland also made a good point. Good reviewers will put aside their own personal feelings towards the sub and just rate it as is, but obviously, this can't happen all the time. Again, not calling anyone out on it, just stating facts that we are humans and humans don't act rationally/fairly all the time.
My "solution" to this is a rather time consuming, and thus probably not a great one. I try and get to know people on the forums, and/or read their bio (if a collab) to get a sense of their tastes. Then I know a) how they compare to mine and b) how much stock I can put in their 2 star review in a genre they admit doesn't shave their goat, so to speak.
But, point is, you can't get people to do that. Someone will always do it just because they can. For better or worse I suppose.... ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 15:57
That makes way too much sense. ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 16:00
Yes, I'm surprised too how these RIO guys can keep their heads so clear with such disastrous music to listen to. Someone should rate that whole lot with 1 stars! |
Posted By: JS19
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 16:01
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Interesting, I generally don't buy albums in sub genre's I don't like. Why would I waste my money on something I don't want to listen to? Seems rather pointless to me... I may just take this opportunity to have a moan too. Why on earth do people review albums with high scores with one star, when the main point of te review is 'I don't see why everyone likes this so much. therefore I will abandon all actual content and the purpose of reviewing, just to lower the score of the album slightly, because you don't think it deserves it, and the best way to do that is to rate 1 star...
Aaaah that felt good.......
(Also noticed that it's not common amongst partners/reviewers, mainly public reviews, which, I am sure, is why the reviews are weighted as they are. It still annoys me though) ------------- 
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 16:01
Didn't notice that. But I still don't see how much this ruins PA's utility as a resource. On the contrary, for me the most useful genre charts are those where there are as many bands as possible, and those charts where one major band has a lot of albums are the least important. A genre chart with 20 albums by 20 different bands is perfect for me, because it's the one that invites the most for research and discovery. Coincidentally this is why I view the krautrock genre chart as probably the best on PA, while others like those of Heavy or Symphonic are down at the bottom of my list of usefulness. How does it help me in exploring Symphonic the fact that the genre chart establishes who the big boys are so well that they occupy by themselves 50% of the whole chart? |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 16:01
To that end....I reviewed Miriodor's debut album, gave it a four star review and brought the general rating down! Even worse, being there are only about 7 ratings it affected it alot. But, there are other albums with VERY high ratings (at least last time I checked) that I really do want to give a 2 or 3 star rating to (not that I'm going to name names  )...so I guess it all balances out in the end.------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 16:03
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That piece of advice your mother gave you when you were five: If you can't say anything good about somebody, don't say anything at all (She was wrong, if it's sincere, qualified, informative and entertaining - bring it on) You're certainly not going to make a purchasing decision based on a one star review from someone you haven't the foggiest idea what their tastes are in music. How many say, Prog Metal albums would you buy and review before you realise the genre is not for you? This is self policing surely? ------------- 
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Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 16:11
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If we had only positive reviews for albums wouldn't it gain a higher rating than it deserves? |
Posted By: Nathaniel607
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 16:18
Well... here's the thing. Now, you have a genre like neo-progressive rock, which many people have a bone to pick with. If you're a fan of neo-progressive rock, you want to know how good it is. However, due to people who hate the genre reviewing, you might find a certain effect. You will find that the more famous neo-prog albums - the flag carriers - will probably have a lot of one-star ratings from people who hate neo-prog. Obscure ones probably won't - since non-fans won't know them. So this means that ultimately, the rating won't reflect the actual quality of the album. Note I don't know if this effect is actually present - just a hypothesis. Now, I kind of agree for that reason. But... if someone has actual gripes with an album - other than just "I hate genre x", it seems like they should be able to review it. Yet if someone is just on a crusade against a genre, they can probably never be won over, so it seems unfair for albums to be subjected to reviews by such unchangeable people. Man, this is one hell of a complex issue. Ultimately, however, I feel the best solution is just to let people review what they want... the people will have to assess the relative accuracy of the rating judging by the popularity/fame of the album. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Nathaniel607" rel="nofollow - My Last FM Profile 
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 16:21
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As a rule, I only review albums I consider 3, 4 or 5 stars (fair-to-good, very good-to-excellent and exceptional/essential). I really don't have time to rate the dogs. That being said, I can see where that may well skew the poll (as I noticed other reviewers have posted the same or nearly the same criteria). Conversely, I don't much look at the stats because I don't agree with half of the albums that are on there anyway. More than half. Nearly two-thirds. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 16:44
We all know there are more people that judge albums from multiple genres fairly than people that are out on these "crusades" agaisnt a genre. So wouldnt the album still have an approprate rating?
And like you said they would only target popular albums, so more reviews that are good to the heart will come in. Albums like The Lamb have prolly had their share of people that give the album 1 or 2 stars, for whatever reason. But it remains to have a 4.5 rating.
Anyways we both agree, i just don't understand how a terrible review given to a popular album with cause it any grief.
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Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 17:06
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I couldn't agree more, Torodd! Listening to unfamiliar (and, at one time, wasn't it ALL unfamiliar) subgenres and bands has been educational, mind- and heart-expanding, and quite amazing. I would never have learned to be able to listen beyond the growls, behind the power chords, behind the dissonance, or into the layers of noodling were it not for BOTH the knowledgeable and biased reviewers here. To see the ratings of an album continue to remain high despite my first impressions makes me think I'm being unfair, that I'M missing something, that I need to grow. And, fortunately, I'm all about growth! Thus, I've had the amazing (though expensive) privilege of getting to know bands like Rush, Jethro Tull, Caravan, Natural Health, Opeth, Pain of Salvation, Agalloch, maudlin of the Well, Kayo Dot, Leprous, Fen, Ciccada, After Crying, Riverside, The Mars Volta, Isis, Red Sparowes, My Education, Karda Estra, Nexus, Ulver, Anglagard, Gentle Giant, Van Der Graaf Generator, and even Porcupine Tree--some of which I never gave a chance, some of which I would have never heard had I not become acquainted with ProgArchives. Admittedly, I go through phases--as we all must. But, I do feel reading, listening, listening, reading, rating, reading, listening and more listening should come before the reviewing. For example, KAYO DOT's last album, "Coyote" absolutely blew me away upon first listens, but then I realized how much I was resisting going back to it--cuz it's so darn depressing! This, I feel, must play into one's review. Contrarily, ULVER's new album, "Wars of the Roses" nearly chased me away upon first listen, yet now I love it--can't take it off my repeat playlist--can't wait to go into that internal place, to try to hear the lyrics while my soul bathes in the austere, unusual music. The best music is that which provides the individual with a sacred place, a safe place to go to recharge. For some of us, the type of music that provides this kind of refuge changes over time; for others it remains constant. We are so lucky to have music--this amazing music!! ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 17:16
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I generally agree to an extent with the OP, if only because giving very low ratings to lots of albums in a single genre is clear trolling and needs to be weeded out. However, I think its good if someone rates a few albums in a sub that they dont like if just to help establish that reviewers take on a said sub, beyond that theres no point.
------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: Nathaniel607
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 17:27
Yes, there are definitely more people who review it fairly, but I still reckon it probably effects the rating a fair bit on certain albums. Also, yes, popular albums will have more people reviewing it fairly, but obscure albums will most likely have zero people reviewing it unfairly, so you have to think about it proportion-wise. But yes, generally, I think we agree. I don't think it effects things to the point where something is needed to be done. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Nathaniel607" rel="nofollow - My Last FM Profile
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Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 17:33
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I disagree with OP. We all delve into other genres and if you really spend the time to listen you are entitled to review. Can's Tago Mago comes to mind for me. I really dislike the style. But I listened many times to have some specifics. But I'm not going to then go buy a bunch more Can albums just to rate them low. I'm done with Can unless someone shows me a reason why to try again...but I put in the listening time to rate the album. Growls are something that in general I don't like, but can work in certain contexts. I WILL rate an album down based on the fact that I think some harsh vocals sound stupid or out of place. Just as most agree that auto-tune, though ubiquitous, still earns our derision, I think I can rate music bad just because of vocals I don't like. I think going out of your way to rate an album poorly is a waste of your time...why spend time on music you don't like. I don't go into any album without thinking I'm going to get something out of it. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: JD
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 17:44
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Wow, great discussion, and lots of passion. that's what I like about PA personally. It's funny this topic just came up because in the last week I noticed several review for ELP albums by someone who obviously has a big hate on for them. And that's fine except that the "review" wasn't a review at all. It was spewing hate plain and simple and for that I have no tolerance. The 'reviewer' (and I use that term loosely) clearly has no idea of how to review a recording. So while it may affect the overall rating of an album it means nothing to me because he said nothing. Art, like food, is a very personal thing. You can review a meal by detailing ingrediants, presentation and overall preparedness without really liking the taste. The same goes for music. Tell me about the recording, the song writing, the performance or production. Is it a step forward or backward for the artist based on previous efforts (I know that can be subjective). But please oh please, comments like "I hate his organs" don't belong in any review. I don't really care what you like or don't like. This isn't about you, it's supposed to be about the music. So tell me what the issue is. At the end of the day I truly believe that most people know whether a reviewer is truly contributing to the whole or just pounding their chest. Those apes are mostly dismissed for what they are the the others will rise above. ------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 18:29
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 19:32
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It's entirely possible to favourably review an album you don't like and vice versa. I don't award stars on how much I like an album, but rather how much merit I think it has. Most of the time I'd like to think my likes and merit are similar, but (for example) I intensely dislike 'In The Court of the Crimson King'. I gave it 5 stars though, because you can hear how significantly it influenced a generation of musicians. So why not review albums in a genre you like less than others? The implication your ratings will be lower just isn't borne out by the evidence: RIO/Avant prog, my least liked genre, actually has my highest average rating (3.64) followed by my second-least-liked genre, Jazz Rock Fusion (at 3.5). My favourites (crossover, symphonic, heavy etc) are lower because I listen to both the good and the bad, while in the genres I dislike I only listen to the better albums. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 19:36
Hi,
And that is the absolute rock bottom truth.
So what do you suggest?
I am all for raising the standard of reviews, and let's face it there are some real stinkers out there, even by Collabs, But we cannot force this, it has to be from the individuals themselves to raise their own game and that comes by writing more reviews, especially of well-reviewed albums where the benchmark has been set.
Why? How do they know whether you have something to offer unless you contact them first?
If you have something to offer send a PM to Philippe or Oliverstoned on the Krautrock team.
If it is just a correction or update then send a PM to anyone one the Errors and Ommissions team (Snowdog, NotaProgHead, T.Rox, ProgShine)
PM links to all those people can be found in the list of Collaborators on the front page http://www.progarchives.com/all_collaborators.asp" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/all_collaborators.asp
Don't send it to me or anyother of the Admin team, it's not our job and we'll only lose or forget it.
No. Jean can speak for herself, if she wishes to rejoin the Collab team that's her decision, not yours.
If you do nothing then never is a long time.
I have no idea what you have said or were trying to say.
And I am asking "How?" do you suggest we do this. The Genre teams have enough to do in evaluating and adding bands - it is not their job to vet and edit reviews, even if they wanted to. Just because they are Genre specialists it does not follow that they are experts at reviewing or general standards of writing.
If you can weed out the rubbish reviews while you are reading them then so can every other person who reads them. Let the reader decide what is good or bad - this is not a monthly glossy magazine or a published anthology of reviews - we actually don't have to maintain a standard. Of course we expect that the Prog Reviewers lead by example and set a standard, they were chosen for the quality of their reviews, not the quantity.
I will repeat this for the umpteenth time - this is an open review site where absolutely anybody can review whatever they like however they like without interference or editorial control - that's not a socio-democracy that's an anarchy and a bloody good one.
I doubt it. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 19:42
------------- What? |
Posted By: The Monodrone
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 19:56
That was hilarious. -------------  
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 20:03
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DON'T SHOUT IT MAKES PEOPLE WONDER IF THIS WHOLE THREAD WAS ILL-CONCEIVED AND POORLY EXECUTED. A RANT THREAD HAS NEVER CHANGED ANYTHING IN THE HISTORY OF THE INTERNET. As I said when you were complaining earlier, there is a place for people who are not already fans of a certain style to talk about the most well known/accessible albums of it so others who have no experience with the genre know what they are getting into. Especially if they share the taste of the person writing the negative review. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 20:20
 You sir have just gained another reader to your reviews. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 21:15
| Dean I'm impressed you worked your way through that whole thing |
Posted By: 1791 Overture
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 23:40
no
edgy
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: April 05 2011 at 23:43
Dean has been going above and beyond the call of duty lately. But I'm afraid that if he keeps reading moshkito's posts he may go mad. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 00:21
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Ahhhh I go to sleep and now I have three pages to try and respond to? Wahhhhh? OK to clear up things I said and to agree with things that were said that are true and weren't included in the rant: 1. I did not say that it is needed to delete reviews of people who obviously hate a sub-genre. In fact that's the opposite of what I said. You can't judge by yourself how another reviewer reviews an album, it's not your review and it's not your right. With that, it is in my opinion between the reviewer and himself to think to himself why he disliked or liked the review, and only when they have a viable reason for them themselves, they can review them album. I wouldn't count "I hate growling" as a reason to dislike the album, or "I hate dramatic guitar solos". These reviews don't give readers the appropriate information on whether you liked or disliked the album, because you rather dislike all of the genre, or just because you know the genre and think the band could have done something differently not in their basic characteristics of the band (the band has growls shouldn't equal this band sucks). Bad reviews (I suggest) should talk about the constructions of the songs themselves, and how they have a problem with that. For example: "the song was way too long and was constructed only on one idea", "The guitar solo was rather weak", "The singer is rather ugly". Of course these are still opinions! I mean you really can't change that. But with that there opinions which are suitable, and come from people who respect the genre and know more or less what to expect from the genre, and don't only hate the album because the albums from this sub-genre have a gigantic carrot for a CD case! 2. Returning to the first point made by lazland, who definitely has a point, I'm not saying to cross an x over a whole sub-genre (though I'm a bit guilty in that field, yes). If I would review a neo-prog album, though, I wouldn't complain on something that annoys me that is a trait to most neo-prog. A neo-prog appreciator would be more useful to see what's good and what's bad in the album, as he would be able to see beyond the basic characteristics of the album, which a neo-prog... hater like me (admitted) wouldn't be able to see through and would immediately deem the album bad, without really giving a good reason. Though if I do listen to a Neo-prog album, and do see beyond the sounds (and the general compositional ideology. It sounds so fancy...) then I will review the album based on the songs and the album and how they we are constructed, and in that way lazland does have a point. So without a doubt people should check out other genres (something I should do too), but don't go around bashing albums because you dislike and don't understand the sub-genre (things I'm tempted sometimes to do).
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Posted By: Man Overboard
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 00:27
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So, I get the impression that most of the people contributing in this thread (and by that I mean pages 1 and 3, perhaps I should read page 2 before speaking so boldly) aren't the people the OP is calling out. Yes, ignorant people reviewing things willfully ignorantly is stupid. Yes, it's easy to spot when someone is just trolling. Not my place to recommend discipline, but such behavior does bring down the Archives, especially on the instances it fills the first page. In the end, this problem is much more problematic in the mainstream press. Whether it's books, music, videogames, or film, seeing a prominent reviewer slamming a work while so completely obviously missing even the basics of what -makes- the genre ensures that said genre will remain niche to the public at large. ------------- https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection. Commissions considered. |
Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 00:31
Is Neo-prog progressive? That's a whole topic in itself already. With that I agree with what you say. I will be brave! I'm still under my bed though, screw it I have a hot tub there!
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Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 00:35
A niche to the public at large. Are the users of PA public at large? I'd at least like to think not, though it might be true. There is sort of "mainstream" prog (more specifically bands), and there's the unknown even less mainstream prog. But with that I'd expect PA users to be more understanding of genres that are less reviewed such as RIO/Avant-prog. And even if they aren't (like I'm not understanding to neo-prog), don't review the album if you clearly just don't get it.
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Posted By: friso
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 01:36
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When I started out on PA I did conceive the 'charts' for the genres as leading instruments for getting more progressive rock. And yes, in many cases these charts are misleading (as with Krautrock legend Can) and I learned to read reviews instead. In the meanwhile I got to learn about who are my favorite reviewers, peoples with good writing skills and a similar approach to the genre.
With the more radical genres on PA we get to read a lot of non-sense with the more known albums indeed. "I really don't understand what this music is about and what people like about it" -> good reason for NOT writing a review. People should only review music they understand. Some reviewers are just too emotional about spending 10 bucks on an album they just can't acquire the tastes for. Bottom-line. If you give low ratings, make sure you explain why and give the impression you really listened and understood the music. Then it's ok to review genres you don't like in my book. |
Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 01:48
Agree completely! More or less what I've trying to say...
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Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 02:18
Thanx ! I regard you as a highly esteemed person so I hope my reply did not come across as an attack in any form or shape. I started out as a Rush and symph prog fan and little by little, emerged from behind my bed to finally discover my alltime favorite band; The Soft Machine. Without ProgArchives; I would not had discover Soft Machine and the numerous hours of pleasure this band has given me. The same also goes for other bands and sounds I have discovered through ProgArchives. It therefore saddens me to see membership profiles or people on Facebook who only operates within 2-3 genres. In the name of the holy monkfish; use ProgArchives for all it is worth ! Our database is a F A N T A S T I C tool and a solid kick up our backsides. Most bands have Youtube videos. All genres has legally free downloads albums of an excellent standard. Open your mind and become progressive. Leave your hiding place now. Rush ? I have to admit I never listen to them anymore....... I still have to open the last year's movie I bought. Hmm.... I better do it this weekend. That is shameful. |
Posted By: progrules
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 02:30
About this: I hope you realize PA-reviewers aren't professionals. In the guidelines it's not a demand to be a professional or great reviewer. The only request is to give ones opinion about an album, to do it in a fair way in good English. I agree there are sites and magazines with reviews that are 100 times better than those on PA. But that's what I like about our site: you can be just a poor and amateur reviewer and still get the chance to write your review. Isn't that great ? By the way: there is a report review thread in case you feel it's below any limit.
About the topic: I have been asking myself the same question more often and we even had a collaborator discussion about this and we couldn't really come up with a perfect solution. In fact there isn't one. It's basically a matter of how serious you want to take ratings and rankings. If you don't care about them: no problem. If you do it's a tough problem because indeed people who dislike the sub genre they often review harm and hurt the bands and albums they review and diminish the ratings. These people are a different kind of reviewer than the so called connoisseurs of the sub genre who are able to make the distinction between a good and a poor album within the sub genre. And that's actually what the bands in a sub genre need: to be reviewed and rated by the connoisseurs of the sub genre.
On the other hand: does this mean a non-connoisseur should be forbidden to write a review about the sub genre ? That's the key question here ! Well, of course to forbid is out of the question on a democratic site as PA. I myself am in doubt for a few years now whether I should review Sigur Ros' Aegetis Birjun. I don't understand nor like anything from this band or sub genre but I own the album. So I could (and should ?) review it. But it will probably get 1 or 2 stars from me because of mention reason whilst it's obvious (through ratings by the majority) we are talking about a class album. And that's really what your point is about and it's a tough matter. I still can't decide if I will do my SR review because it seems unfair but on the other hand I feel the urge to express my opinion about album, band and sub genre. So my pont is   (unsolvable problem)------------- A day without prog is a wasted day |
Posted By: Kosmonaut
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 02:53
The problem here is obviously that this guy is an idiot. There's probably no cure for that though. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 03:15
Try to think of PA as a kind of immigrant nation of free people governed loosely by volunteers; the whole point, indeed the primary reason for the site's success and gravity IMO, is the principle of not only open reviewing for all but the immediate publication in full (subject to guidelines) of said reviews. As a multicultural, spontaneous experiment in a community seemingly full of eager, smart and passionate listeners willing to help preserve and cast light on a normally ignored music, one must take the good with the mediocre. Further, an editor(s) might help the overall quality, but would not curb the influx of new reviews by new members. |
Posted By: topographicbroadways
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 04:29
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The rant translates to "don't post crappy reviews." Anyone can review any sub genre and if a review expresses an opinion well enough then there is no problem.
Don't post crappy threads either -------------  
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Posted By: ten years after
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 04:52
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I remember a few years ago when The Australian newspaper, on the occasion of the 30th anniversary of Dark Side of the Moon, advertised that it had a full page article about the album. Needless to say i bought a copy (I don't normally - The Australian is way too right wing politically).
When I turned to the article I rapidly became totally p****d off. The reviewer wrote briefly about DSOTM and then went on at great length about how terrible progressive rock was, as a genre.
Now, everyone is entitled to their opinion but i was left wondering why the hell a paper would employ someone to write a review of an art form that they detested. Maybe they would employ the 1970s Johnny Rotten to write a review of a Mozart concert, but i suspect not.
My point is; if you know that you dislike an album before you have heard it, then you really should not write a review of it.
In other words, I agree with the author of this thread.
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Posted By: topographicbroadways
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 04:55
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I'd say it's much different though when comparing a one off edition of a newspaper and a website with a diverse selection of reviews on each album. If there was just one review per album on this site then yes the author would have a point but with most albums you have at least a dozen different reviews. -------------
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Posted By: NotAProghead
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 05:11
 Well said! I think we can close the discussion.------------- Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour) |
Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 05:50
I agree with Notaproghead. That pretty much takes the cake. Though that wasn't really what I was talking about, more of a prelude... But I have still lol'd! And that's what matters.
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Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 05:59
Again, I really don't mean to say stay out of genres completely. It's close-minded and stupid. What I am saying is that if you take out you hate on a sub-genre in one single album, then I will dislike you forever! About the Sigur Ros album: I personally love SR very much, and of course already own Agaetis Byjurn (that's how you spell it? I really don't remember...) and so your review won't be hurting my opinion of the album, but for people who didn't listen to the album, and want to start with post-rock, your review will change their opinions one way or the other (Even if the number drops, it still makes a difference... Ahhhh Democracy!). It really depends whether you have strong points to whether you dislike the album or not. It shouldn't be something like (enter Post Rock stereotype here). But if you have a problem with the albums compositions more because of the songs themselves and how they are constructed and less because they have Post Rock characteristics you dislike, than review the album. In my opinion though, if you just dislike Post Rock in general, I wouldn't bother. Just leave it and carry on with life, and shout how much you dislike the album at your neighborhood clown or something, that's what I do, at least.
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Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 06:20
Really no offense taken, though I am a person of high esteem! I agree with you 100%. Progarchives is probably the most useful tool for finding new music I have ever encountered. To talk about the amount of band I have added to my Top 10 in a week (Including Cardiacs the absolute love of my life), who have come off and come back again is really staggering. I too started as a sympho (like that abbreviation should use it more often), and Progarchives really helped me find the music I've been looking for. I was really tired and frustrated at the symph stuff I've been listening to and was looking for something different. And kapow! RIO/Avant section! Really changed my musical mindset, and now I can still listen to the symph stuff with more appreciation, though by now I'm definitely an RIO freak. If PA wasn't here I'd probably be still listening to Yes and Genesis only (nothing wrong with that, but definitely is nice to have variety).
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Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 06:22
That's probably true. Why would you even listen to 70 albums in a genre that you don't like?
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Posted By: mono
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 07:32
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Moderating reviews.... NO! Guidelines, Yes! And guidelines = common sense. "useful for others" reviews. In my opinion, a review saying "I hate growling so I hate this album" isn't so bad... You know that the "mean score" represents very little relevant information, so just read a few reviews and you'll be better off. ------------- https://soundcloud.com/why-music Prog trio, from ambiant to violence https://soundcloud.com/m0n0-film Film music and production projects https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else |
Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 08:26
You're the one with the Opeth cover in your avatar and I'm more pissed off at it than you are! And I agree that you should read reviews, but with that, if you have to choose which an album of an artist to for first, wouldn't you go for the highest rated? So maybe the bad reviews are messing up what would've the highest rated? Who knows?
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Posted By: RoyFairbank
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 08:44
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Can you just have a button where all albums of a certain Genre are marked 1 star? That would be convenient. Prog Metal = 1 Star Krautrock = 1 star Canterbury Scene = 1 Star  |
Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 08:49
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I think you are taking it too personally.
One of the great things about this site is that we allow anyone to join and post reviews.
I like Opeth's music, but the growling sometimes makes them unlistenable to me. That's my perogative, and I have every right to express that in a review.
I love Gentle Giant. I have seen some reviewers lower the ratings of their albums because they sometimes use dissonance. Does it offend me? No. Does it bother me that they lower the rating on an album because of it? No.
Being "pissed off" over this? Really? ------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 10:11
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I have never bought a record based on a review. In the good old days it was about weirdness of the cover. Can't see how anyone's else opinion can have any bearing on how I'm going to like or not care for an album. If you've never tried cabbage and a food reviewer says wow! Cabbage is great doesn't mean that it really is great. Also, way back in the olden days I used to buy magazines and books to find info about bands and never even really knew what a review was until I happened across this site. I don't know why anyone takes them seriously. Hey when I was in high school listening to crazy sh*t like Guru Guru, Amon Duul II, King Crimson and Hawkwind most people including my family thought I was nuts to listen to all this sh*t music. "It's lonely at the top" I thought to myself "for I am one of the knowing ones". Because understood the music and they didn't, I felt bigger, better and smarter. The more people would insult the music I listened to the more I loved it. " Yeah idiot go and listen to your stupid Kiss albums I have to go and pick up the Egg album that I have been waiting for for 8 weeks". I agree with some of the guys here I would rather review an album to turn someone on to it. I just looked at my reviews and they are mostly favourable in terms of ratings. I've said this before, we should ditch the ratings because you can pretty much tell from a person's tone and choice of words how he /she personally feels about a particular album. I also must confess that I've reviewed many albums that need no reviewing at all like ITCOTCK, Tubular Bells, CTTE, DSOTM and Love Beach just for the fun of it which is what this reviewing should be about. Oh no I forgot, this is a prog site and fun is strictly forbidden. ------------- |
Posted By: Paravion
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 12:24
This is great. I agree wholeheartedly. I couldn't care less about ratings (..I like some reviewers' reviews..) and don't understand the concern about what average number of stars is given to an album by the PA community. |
Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 13:40
Look, if I know the album, it doesn't really hurt my opinion of it, and whether it's good or not falls solely on my power of judgement because I listened to it. But if I'm looking to start listening to a band, and the album might be reviewed much, and I don't know, it's something like Agaetis Byjurn by Sigur Ros or "Misplaced Childhood" by Marillion, two very prominent bands in controversial sub-genres, and a lot of people are giving the album trash for being what it is, an album that strongly represents the sub-genre, instead of how the album works as an album and as a compositional piece, then I have a problem with it. It's not really correctly representing the album to someone who is looking for something that would fit the characteristic of the sub-genre, that would be along the lines of something he'd like, and yet undeservedly get a low rating (I can't really name such an album, it needs a more in depth look at reviews). Someone who might be making the album of the decade, and many people will be raving at it, and people run to listen to it only to find it's not what they expected. Now there two things people do- they either buck up and take the challenge or they go low into the sub-genres stereotypes ("It's just noise", "It sounds like Genesis"). People who buck up and take the challenge are the people who should be listened to and who should review the album- whether they liked the album or not is a different matter, because they at least understand what the artist is trying to do, and will give the artist the appropriate rating. Does it offend me? No. Does it piss me off? Definitely. It might be the one thing between me and a great album which deserves to be listened to. Because when I think where to spend my money, I usually go on the safer bet- on the higher rated higher regarded album. The questions is are these albums highly or lowly rated justly.
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 13:45
Roy ... I'm throwing the baseball in the next dunking contest! ... you're gonna take a nice dunk!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 13:47
Dude, this is prog, it's not fun, it's intellectual *fancy philosopher pose*. Get your facts straight. And you know, the idea of taking off the rating systems isn't a bad one at all. I actually think it makes a lot of sense. Then people won't be just: this has higher number, me want this (that's what I do, at least)! People would need to look at reviews a lot more, and reviewers would need to write more in depth reviews so that people can understand if the album is for them or not, and not just look at a number. Plus the bullocks reviews won't really be a problem, you just go to read them, and then you don't. I find this idea rather excellent.
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Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 13:48
Annnnnnnddd win!
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Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 13:49
If there was any fun here, our wives and girlfriends would had forbidden us to spend so much time here. |
Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 13:51
This is all educational. We nod accordingly and sip our tea intellectually while we push are glasses smartily (new adverb, I'm literally so serious I'm creating new words) back onto our nose and repeat the process.
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 14:07
But you must remember the axiom of the new age stars ... if you pay for it, and pay bigger, you appreciate it more!
Generally, we have that problem, but in those days, our friends didn't have this, and there was no internet ... our ability to find something was rare indeed, and the music was very special because of it ... it was not hidden by any stretch of the imagination, but in America, it was tough ... because the further out west you went the worse it was and the tougher were the attitudes about "foreign music" ... to the point where you were not "cool" if you did not like the California artists! I doubt you had a similar issue in New York, or London for example.
In the end, there is a psychic saying that goes like this ... when you are ready for it, it comes to you, or you come to it ... and music and the arts has always been like that for me.
Today's ways, and you can preview a band in the internet, is easier to listen to a lot more ... with one serious concern ... it ends up diluting your ability to discern what might be considered "better" or not, or those pieces that are more conventional than otherwise.
Read up on the stories around "Pirate Radio", so you can have an idea of some of the issues around music in England ... and then see the Tom Dowd DVD so you can get an idea of the American version ... and it will explain the history of music a lot better in those two examples than you ever imagined.
The only hard part now, is that the "media" likes to shove things down your throat and tell you that they are good ... and no one is standing up and saying ... you're full of it ... it's not good! And the why is easy ... fans!
Music has changed ... it will never again, be an upper class decision of what music is and is supposed to be ... and tomorrow, it's definitions will reflect that a lot more ... but it's difficult to place yourself in my time, or Dean's or some other time and place ... like that kid in the Iron Curtain I had a really nice discussion with here on this site ... you had no idea of how hard some things were to get around ... but we managed to find them and get them.
Nowadays, there is no "work" to fing things ... you click on this or that ... voila ... free music! With only one problem and MAJOR difference ... we usually listened to the whole album ... and now people make ideas and concepts off one song only ... and tend to generalize on the music a lot more than we did then. It was different then, extremely so ... but nowadays, too many of those differences are simply not there, and neither there are many other differences that would suggest this band is very interesting ... and worth checking out further.
The bad part of the internet? ... I'm not even finding many different things ... and I am not sure, yet, why this is ... too much "commerciality"? ... or simply, people are just doing what they know and not trying out things they don't know ... and our scene (the main and original "progressive") was the total opposite. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: JD
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 14:11
It more than just a number. It's a function. You have to take into account the number of ratings as well as the rating number itself. JT - Thick as a Brick has 948 ratings for a rating number of 4.65 while The Lens - Regeneration has only 36 ratings for a rating number of 4.11. I can state with some confidence (since I have them both) that The Lens is not that close to being in the same league as the JT despite what it's ratings number is. But it gets the attention and that's where individual responsibility lies (remember that stuff?). I like the little flags. But I also know how to best utilize them as a tool. That's what they are, tools (still talking about the numbers and not the reviewers in this case ) Treat them as such and let the fan boys or anti-fan boys rate as they like. ------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |
Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 14:26
You know I used to fight with my friends for hours about whether I'd like to live now or in the 70s (the peak of progressive music!), and I would always say that now is the best time for music and it just gets better. But you have a point. Availability and the internet do change peoples' opinions on albums and anything else. If an album is highly rated I will definitely try listening to it until I manage to get it (If I don't, well I don't). That's why I agreed with "Vibrationbaby" to get rid of the rating system and have just reviews. Sure it's not albums passing from mouth to ear, but instead of looking at a number, and being biased to the album because of that number (If we haven't listened to it before), we will get a opinions which will clearly state what was the whole big deal about the album. The availability with that isn't all bad. I can beat my dad in knowledge of music in pretty much every genre, especially in music that was regarded "his time period" (he's a bit of a progger as well), and modern music, because if I'm interested to find a band I can google them and know more or less all there is to know of them. And not only does has my knowledge increased dramatically, but so has my music collection. And to your statement ("too much commerciality"), well if you look in the main prog sub-genres, the sympho, the neos, the eclectics, than yes many bands have stayed in the same vain of the 70s stuff and haven't been too progressive (!) and have made quite a success of it. But looking into the more "rebellious" sub-genres (RIO, Post-Rock, Prog electro, bla bla bla di bla and other stuff) you will find obscure stuff, which is really just there for the music sake. The artists there are the ones pushing the genre forward, while many of the band in the main prog vein (not all, and definitely many bands in the RIO, Post-Rock, and Prog electro too are guilty of this) are still holding the genre back, and are still succeeding to spread the word and gain success. The true artist always remains criminally unknown... But that's really a topic for another thread. I like ranting way too much.
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Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 14:29
As you said, they are tools, and so while shouldn't be the factor of final judgement, at times (again, for me) they do take a factor. And words I think would succeed transferring the message and would be a better factor than a number.
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Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 15:22
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I was only k-i-d-d-i-n-g about no fun and that's not my quote above. Do you guys actually do your record or, sorry, CD or sorry download shopping on the basis of reviews?
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 15:23
So, it wasn't just the music that was hard to find - it was the background information - what we had came from Music magazines, written with bias and predudice by self-serving, self-publicist muso jouranlists. If that is hard to take just look at the "misinformation" regarding Punk Rock and the so-called demise of Prog in 1976 (you know that thing that happened three years before The Wall became one of the the biggest selling albums of 1980 and has since sold 12 million copies - some death throw that was
).And to that wealth of music available at the click of a mouse - Huzzah! What unbounded absolute joy! - If I could take out shares in Amazon I surely would. It tooke me years to collect my Amon Duul II collection - finally left to scourging those damn-awful Record Fayres in the 90s flicking through box upon box of flipping kraftwerke albums hoping to find one solitary ADII album in there somewhere that I hadn't got (not that I knew whether I had the fuill discogrpahy or not - no PA in 1990  ). Do I listen to these easily found gems less? Less intently, with less dedication and less attention? - do I buggery. (that means "No" in Deanspeak)------------- What? |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 15:25
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With the background statement that I fully support that PA is a free platform where anybody can express his opinion, I agree with the OP. If you basically hate a certain genre you better refrain from reviewing / rating its albums, or at least if you do make it clear from the start and use educated and polite terms. Recently I am seeing quite a few reviews of generally highly regarded albums not only thrashing them but using truly unpolite terms. Reviewers are free to dislike any album and to say so, but the use of extremely nasty expressions is not needed. In any case they are probably counterproductive to the intention because most people will spot them right away as simple uneducated trolling.
We must not forbid or censure anything, but by collective opinion we can try to upgrade the level of the reviews, criticizing or maybe even ignoring those who apparently only want to troll or manipulate ratings and praising those who write well informed and polite reviews.
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Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 15:40
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I went through the 70s & 80s without the bloody internet and managed to build up a substantial record collection and knowledge without it. In fact about 90 % of my collection is from my pre-90s period. I dunno, I find it tiresome to sift through all th trash that is out there on the web. I'm currently involved in a research project not related to music and man! Sometimes I just want to pull my hair out over all the conflicting information, inacuracies and self-publishing know-it-alls that are out there. I hate using it and wish it never happened to tell the truth. I've even read about things and events that I have been directly involved with that couldn't be farther from the facts. ------------- |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 16:00
As to the information on the Web - yeah, sure there is a lot of inaccurate rubbish out there, but there is also a lot (a hell of lot) of valuable accurate information out there too. If you find something inaccurate then tell them and explain why and how you know so they'll believe you over the other guy. ------------- What? |
Posted By: JD
Date Posted: April 06 2011 at 16:06
Better? That would assume that everyone has an equal ability to express themselves. Clearly that fact that this discussion is taking place proves they don't really. However, numbers are, for all intents and purposes, universally equal. For example if I say that David Surkamp, the singer for Pavlov's Dog, has an irritating voice that's not quantifiable it's opinion and vague at best. It assumes everyone else knows what I find irritating. If I say that that ELP's Tarkus is a 4.50 out of 5 stars it becomes less vague, whether anyone agrees or not. I stand by the ratings numbers with all their flaws and issues. BTW, I give this thread a solid 4.25 for pertinence to the PA site. ------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |