The Arrogant Proggie

TLM170 wrote: boo boo wrote: As soon as anyone here says "prog IS objectively better than pop because...." I can no longer take them seriously. I know some people are arrogant enough to believe that "it's all subjective" is some myth that the Jews keep propagating to keep all us mindless slaves under their control but yeah. You can't even prove that prog is better objectively in terms of skill.   Since pop does employ a lot of the best singers and session musicians in the world. You can argue over who is more creative with their skills but even that is subjective.   I enjoy a lot of pop music, I even consider Michael Jackson one of my favorite music artists, he was very creative as a singer and especially as a dancer and performer. He and the people who composed his songs may have had commercial success in mind, that doesn't mean they didn't have creative spirit. There's so much pop music now, and none of it can touch Billie Jean or Beat It.  Anybody can make pop music nowadays, but can just anybody make good pop music? Of course not.   The Beatles, The Beach Boys, David Bowie, Queen. Those are great examples of how creative and advenderous pop music can be.   Pop and prog are such different approaches to music, but one thing they tend to have in common is they tend to attract highly skilled musicians. Take Stevie Wonder for example, he's an incredibly gifted singer, keyboardist and multi instrumentalist. He shouldn't be compared to Rick Wakeman because what he does with the skills he has is very different.   Then you have Todd Rundgren, who made a double album of consistantly excellent pop music which he wrote, sang, produced and played nearly all the instruments for. Not all pop musicians are slaves to corporate executives, some have complete control over their work, Prince being one example. While the best pop artists still desire commercial success, there's still a drive to make high quality music that they themselves can appreciate.   So pop music can still be a very expressive form of music, just like any other genre of music.   I never understood how desire for profit somehow discredits an artist. Look at many of the Renaissance painters, they were basically contract workers, their work was often commissioned and paid for by private patrons, usually in the religious sector. They had a job to do, and yet their works are now called masterpieces. And why not? Everybody should admire the almost inhuman amount of detail and craftmanship that went into those paintings, even if they were doing a job, creating a product to sell and had limited creative control, they showed great dedication, knowledge of and respect for their subjects. That itself is a form of self expression. People too often forget that. You are right for the pop band you just named. but those aren't what is pop right now. I love many pop artist from today and aknowledge the talent of their PRODUCER most of actual artist are more an image than an artist. the real genius in pop music is the producer not the half naked, botoxed and photoshoped person on the cover.   also, most of the time catchy riffs are and easy succession of chord nothing out of the ordinary.   if you want you can also look up the actual top chart artist live and you'll see that without autotune they have a hard time. And those artist are the one made out of an image   and, in the I have money and I'll make 2 or 3 protools burn because of to much editing you can look up Paris Hilton, Kim Kardeshian (i dont know if this is the right way to type it.)album.   THOUGHT, i cannot write or produce stuff like that they all are talented people. I just dont enjoy that kind of music.

MAYBE his point is that, typically, opinions expressed by prog listeners on pop can be very generalized.  I have observed that people who follow these so-called maligned or less popular genres like prog or metal lament that general listeners pass judgment without listening properly or only to a few bands and don't understand what the true potential of the genre can be. Well, how can you reasonably expect them to be open minded about 'your' music when you are always judgmental about pop?  And by the by, not all pop riffs/chord progressions are ordinary. Stevie Wonder wrote some very interesting chord progressions in his 70s albums, for example. Sure, not every pop artist is even close to that amazing, but the point is the potential certainly exists to make great pop music that is both very appealing AND very interesting and daring, musically.  Comparing, say, Britney to King Crimson to make an unfavourable judgment on pop (which is what people typically do) is not valid because not all prog, by that token, is as good as King Crimson either.  And between bad prog and bad pop, I'd rather bad pop (though I'd really avoid both, given the choice) because it is much less painful or boring to endure. 

Dean, your mailbox is full

Finnforest wrote: Dean, your mailbox is full

Gnaah! Sorreee

Sorry sorry I get your point. and I must admit sometimes I'm not always fair with those artist.

Kashmir75 wrote: Pop singers are better? Absolute bollocks. I'll take a real singer who makes me actually feel emotion, over some Auto Tuned strumpet any day.  Are you seriously telling me Britney Spears is a better singer than Mikael Akerfeldt, or Jon Anderson? Laughable.  Chad Kroeger a better singer than Steven Wilson or Peter Gabriel? Ridiculous.

Kashmir75 wrote: Pop singers are better? Absolute bollocks. I'll take a real singer who makes me actually feel emotion, over some Auto Tuned strumpet any day.  Are you seriously telling me Britney Spears is a better singer than Mikael Akerfeldt, or Jon Anderson? Laughable.  Chad Kroeger a better singer than Steven Wilson or Peter Gabriel? Ridiculous.

Well, Christina Aguilera IS a better singer than say Rachel Cohen and would not be surprised if Beyonce Knowles was too.  Ditto Celine Dion.  Seal or Peabo Bryson were better than Steve Hogarth, Neal Morse or Roine Stolt. Stevie Wonder was easily a better singer than Jon Anderson or Peter Gabriel and, in my reading, Agnetha Falskog and Karen Carpenter were better than Sonja Kristina.  Intentionally picking up poor examples of pop singers is not going to prove your point, especially because they are POPULAR and searching for better examples is not hard.


Edited by rogerthat - March 04 2011 at 21:14

TLM170 wrote:   Agree. but don't you think it's sad that those people with talent are on the same ground as others without?

Nothing wrong with writing something catchy.. you want the listener to come back to it.  You shouldnt try to write a pop song just like you shouldnt try to write a 20 minute prog song. Anytime you try to force writing its fake, you write what you feel at the time...forget what other people think. To me thats what being progressive is all about, being yourself and not trying to be like others....(thats probably why alot of prog is so cheesy because they try to sound like dream theater etc..)