The Arrogant Proggie
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=57521
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Topic: The Arrogant Proggie
Posted By: sealchan
Subject: The Arrogant Proggie
Date Posted: April 28 2009 at 17:44
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I used to have a serious superiority complex regarding the superiority of MY music (mostly prog) to other more popular pop and rock music. Since that time I have learned much about the subjectivity of my perspective and I now only joke about MY musical tastes being superior. My understanding of the subjectivity of my perspective is, in fact, partially theoretical and comes about through Jungian personality type theory and the popular book Please Understand Me. To some extent I like the kind of music I like because of my personality.
I suppose given that in many cases the musicianship of progressive rock is better than average pop or rock, this is a natural occurrence especially if you are younger. These days there is so little musicianship left in pop music (sampled tape loops and whatnot) that it is like apples and oranges to compare prog to rap or dance.
One thing I do have to concede to pop music is that pop music does often exceed prog in two categories (can you name others?):
1. Quality of vocals: better singers in pop
2. Catchier melodies in pop, especially if producers and other non-musical professionals get involved
Do you agree/disagree? Any life stories about having rehabilitated from being a prog snob? Any justifications for being more of a prog snob?
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Replies:
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 28 2009 at 17:53
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I find quality pop is among the most difficult to pull off well; ever tried just writing a good song? It's an art and requires as much skill and natural talent as anything does. Less is often more, indeed. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: April 28 2009 at 17:54
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If there's anything I've learned from the Internet, it's that proggers are comparatively humble to most music a****les.
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: April 28 2009 at 18:09
Agreed entirely. ------------- 
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stonebeard wrote:Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: April 28 2009 at 18:53
Yeah I've noticed that... some would say that it's a backlash against the perception of prog fans but I dunno, I think we're just chill and don't take sh*t seriously.
 I find that prog fan much more often than the arrogant type. |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: April 28 2009 at 18:58
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seconded! i agree that a lot of pop has better singers, there's American Idol, which does find a lot of quality singers. Of course, only to have a hit or 2, and then forget about them. i wouldnt necessarily agree that there are catchier melodies in pop than other music. First off, i find catchy melodies in all types of music, from any era, Does Not Matter! second, what kind of pop are we talking about? sometimes i find garbage singers in alt-pop/rock, and any r&b pop song, especially if they use that pitch-changer thing, whatever it's called (a lot of hip-hop and r&b artists use it, sometimes exclusively, which makes me think they cannot sing) ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm 
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Posted By: DatM
Date Posted: April 28 2009 at 19:04
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I just never saw musical taste as way to judge people. It totally depends on how important music is to a person and what they're looking for in it. Some people just care about the lyrics. Others just want something to dance to, etc... That being said, I find it hard to relate to a person that listens to Britney Spears...but I wouldn't look down on them for it....that's like a gourmet chef looking down on me for enjoying hamburgers, hehe. ------------- Death and the Maiden - A Metal Tribute To String Quartets http://www.deathandthemaiden.net - Website http://www.myspace.com/deathmaiden - Myspace |
Posted By: DamoXt7942
Date Posted: April 28 2009 at 19:07
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I think It's so difficult that an artist improve the taste of music with only simple materials. Whether pop or progressive, and whether voices or melodies, there are lots of skilled artists all over the world...how do you think? ------------- http://www.facebook.com/damoxt7942" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Dominic
Date Posted: April 28 2009 at 19:12
Though this is only a "quality" attribute to a person who finds catchiness especially substantial. When i think of the kind of catchiness of pop music, (surely this will make me come off as an "arrogant proggie  ) it's like an annoyance that i can't get out of my head, similar to some Christmas songs or children's jingles. I don't really understand the term "challenging music", because i don't see how it's an exertion to actually pay attention for a long period of time to an interesting arrangement of sounds.Anyways, i think we shouldn't feel guilty for enjoying prog. music over pop music; it's not as if everyone is naturally inclined towards more simplistic music and prog. enthusiasts are all just pretentious b*****ds trying to be different.
 That's pretty much how i feel
I remember a line from a character out of one of my fav. books: "It seems that the less a person is really interested in art, the stronger their opinions are of it" That's how i feel sometimes when i notice some of my friends arguing about music. ------------- 
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Posted By: Matthew T
Date Posted: April 28 2009 at 19:28
I definately am not arrogant concerning other genres of music because I practically like them all. It was Duke Ellington who said that there are only 2 kinds of music........... the good stuff and then there is the other stuff ------------- Matt |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: April 28 2009 at 20:58
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Please don't use the "word" proggie.
The problem he would have is not that you like hamburgers, but that you eat at McDonald's. But I don't think there's anything wrong with him being a little disgusted if you thought McDonald's was really really great, and I would be inclined to agree with him, even though I am by no means a food junkie. The question is whether or not you care what he thinks. I personally don't, and I doubt that someone who listens mostly to Nickelback and T-Pain cares that I think his/her taste is boring, for the same reasons. Although I get in trouble once I extend the comparison past T-Pain, since I am not a fan of classic rock. ;-) ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 28 2009 at 21:20
just goes to shows taste and other things simply don't define a person.. I love real burgers and I also go to McDonalds and thoroughly enjoy it |
Posted By: Isa
Date Posted: April 28 2009 at 21:21
Depends on what you mean by superior. I for one distinguish between music that I LIKE and music I RESPECT, and a lot of times one type of music falls in one category without falling into the other. I recognize when music takes talent to put together and perform and when it does. I once hated hearing opera even though I repected it (now i love it though!). Even some pop I hold in high regard but simply dislike (if not loath) the style. Punk I neither hold in high regard nor enjoy hearing. On the other hand, I love a little Motley Crue and Def Leppart every so often, even though I recognize the music is really quite mediocre.  Most prog, especially the really experimental stuff, I hold in high regard AND love listening to. Overall I strive to enjoy the music I respect and feel IS superior.Oh, and the thing I hate about most pop IS the catchy melodies. If they're too catchy, they're just plain annoying, they get stuck in your head and never leave...  |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: April 28 2009 at 21:23
I don't understand why people regard catchy as an attribute under any circumstances, but that's for another discussion, I think. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: CryoftheCarrots
Date Posted: April 28 2009 at 22:22
Arrogant,superior - yeh that sounds like me.Just ask my wife.
------------- "There is a lot in this world to be tense and intense about" MJK |
Posted By: rosenbach
Date Posted: April 29 2009 at 00:53
| I think in a way is true that sometimes proggies are arrogant regarding to music, but among my proggie friends the most arrogant ones are the RIO fans. |
Posted By: progrules
Date Posted: April 29 2009 at 00:55
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My experience is that prog spoils you. If I listen to pop music (just a few times last 20 years !) I get bored to death. And realize what pop music lovers are missing if they never heard of prog. So I only partly agree that it's subjective. Prog IS superior to (almost all) pop music. But I do agree with the singer aspect. Pop groups have usually far better vocalists than progbands. So be it. ------------- A day without prog is a wasted day |
Posted By: el dingo
Date Posted: April 29 2009 at 01:20
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I dunno if arrogance is the word. Maybe, a smug, silent sense of superiority?
Seriously I'm with Matthew on this one - I like all sorts of genres, but I'm secretly proud that my 17-y-o son loves his metal and prog rather than the poppier side of life.
I think there is so much depth to prog compared to everything else. I've bought loads of poppier stuff over the years, but it doesn't stand the test of time like prog, IMO.
Mind you, I'll be playing my Stones, Kinks, Faces till the day I  ------------- It's not that I can't find worth in anything, it's just that I can't find worth in enough. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: April 29 2009 at 01:27
I don't think that prog singers usually suck. But I do think that on some classic 70s prog albums the vocals have an amateurish ring to them ... exemplified by Gabriel-era Genesis most of all. Interestingly, on his later pop albums in the 80s/90s the vocals were much, much better ... I suppose that for some reason on their 70s albums getting the vocals right was not a priority, or - again for reasons that I don't understand - they *wanted* it to sound amateurish. It's similar for VdGG albums ... Peter Hammill is a fantastic singer an musician IMO (I'm a huge fan), but if you play some of their masterpieces to someone who only knows pop/mainstream rock/metal my guess is that they would intuitively say "the vocals suck". ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: April 29 2009 at 02:34
Professionalism is not necessarily a plus. I hate smooth pop vocals. On THE LAMB, Peter Gabriel has more expression in his voice than any smooth pop artists I can think of, and I'll be eternally grateful for that. As for Hammill, you could call him a primitivist (even though he can sound angelically beautiful when he wants to), and a lot of people have problems with primitivism. On the other hand, many of the most succesful pop singers don't really sound technically perfect. Michael Jackson's THRILLER sounds infectious because his vocals are so lively and seemingly spontaneous. If he had adopted a "smooth soul" voice his music would be far less appealing. Prince's vocals are even rougher. They've got more in common with Peter Gabriel's vocals than with the singing of manufactured pop divas. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 29 2009 at 02:41
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^ even some of those manufactured pop divas can sing with soul, ever heard Pink? Girl has some pipes. |
Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: April 29 2009 at 03:41
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I'm not all that impressed with pop hits. Just seems to me an exercise in psychology more than music. Supporting that assertion, many of them seem to contain the same elements, albeit to my admittedly untrained ears. It's all matter of using what has been proven to put the human mind in a happy place. It's still seems like the largest factor in getting a hit is luck, mainly being lucky enough to be chosen by one of the huge record labels so that your songs can be shoved down millions of people's throats. If that makes me an arrogant proggie, so what, I don't care. However, I seem to be much more open minded as far as what types of music I'll accept than most people on this site. In pop music's defense though, there are much worse things in the entertainment industry. Reality TV comes to mind. I'd rather listen to Like a Virgin 500 times in a row than watch five minutes of the Surreal Life.  |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: April 29 2009 at 06:04
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The average indie, pop, metal, jazz, blues, country or whatever the
hell genre fan is no more or less arrogant than the average 'prog' fan
is going to be. It's up to the individual to not jump on the bandwagon of others who make blanket statements about other music genres like such and actually think for themselves and start UNDERSTANDING other music and get off their f**kin' high horse of what they listen to as being superior. There is no reason to even subjectively believe what you listen to is somehow inferior. You're not a better person, no one is going to like you more, in fact most people are just going think you're an ass. It's just easier to be a nice guy at the end of the day as I found out. Someone likes pop music even if I don't? Cool. Someone likes country even if I don't? Cool, they like it, it's all I care about it, as long as they are happy. No point in being an a****le and saying it's apparently inherently inferior to what you like. Chances are, if you meet someone for the first time and instead of bashing their music taste and try to discover why they are different to you and what other things you have in common you'll achieve a lot more. What makes this planet good is the diversity of cultures. It's cool to find out why others are so different. What isn't so cool is this drive to make them more and more the same by try to prove their culture is superior and then what happens is we lose the diversity. Sure this is talking on a bigger scale then music of course, but one thing always leads to the next. No one says you have to be necessarily open minded and have to like everything, because I sure don't like anything you shove in front of me, but what we should be aiming for is understanding you're not any better than the man next to you. If people really are obsessed with listening to complex music, why even prog rock? It's still rock music after all. It doesn't even come a fraction of the way to being as complex as some of the contemporary classical music out there or even older periods. So why stop at prog rock? It's so simple compared to what else is on offer in the classical world. It's all relative isn't it?  We can deduce from this, at the top of the rung we have the classical snob/elitist Classical snob looks down upon prog rock as music that tries to achieve a level of complexity but in reality is just so simple compared to what the classical snob likes. The prog rock elitist fan looks down at the pop rock fan. The pop rock fan might look down at music not made by real instruments. If all I cared about was how complex the music had to be, I wouldn't even bother with prog rock/metal. But fortunately how technical/complex music is doesn't matter to me, so I can safely listen to prog rock alongside rock alongside classical and alongside jazz. There is the odd pop rock song I can safely fit in there as something I like too. |
Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: April 29 2009 at 08:27
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When I told my boss that I like ELP, he took one long stare at me and said "Oh noooo.....". Yes, I am self-indulgent, overblown, a pompous ass and I use twenty words where most others use one word. Arrogant ? Maybe, but I find the whole society's perception of prog rockers hilarious. So I play along and make sure that I fits the stereotype. Off course I do everything tongue in cheek. In particular towards my boss whose sobbing can be heard when I mention bands like ELP, Yes and Gong. |
Posted By: Ultime
Date Posted: April 29 2009 at 10:33
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I do not think proggies to be arrogant !
Is singers and melodies are better in pop music ? - I don't think so ! - I've found a lot of fabulous singers in Prog music and a lot of cheesy-weeping-like so-called singers in pop music (that makes me sick).
I have seen a lot of arrogant pop-listener saying that I don't like music because I don't like pop - isn't that arrogant ?
I would add that proggies usually know what they like and why they like it ! Just remember someonescoming back from a Madona concert - usually, they don't care about the musicians on the stage ; often they don't even care about the songs she has sung - all they want to is to see her and if they are lucky, she will do nastiy things ! ------------- Ultime tentative |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: April 29 2009 at 12:33
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There are some interesting comments here. I consider myself to be hugely snobbish and a touch arrogant when it comes to music. Prog is my favourite (of course!), but I do also listen to many other genres, and I have a very healthy respect for well written and genuine pop music - for instance, Abba were a great pop band, whether we like their music or not. What I hate, and get incensed about, is the manufactured pap/crap that is everywhere these days, and the appalling mysogynistic violence that is inherent in so much rap/hip hop & etc. I simply refuse to even watch stuff like pop Idol, Britains Got Talent, American Idol and the like, because, in the main, they are exercises in humiliating many of the contestants, and the idea that you can elevate someone to superstardom without an ounce of original songwriting or playing talent is utterly alien to me, and I suspect most prog fans. We LIKE our music to be played and written by virtuosos, we like the fact that most of it is so technically superior to that kind of stuff. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: April 29 2009 at 12:53
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I think many of us go through that arrogant zombie prog pod person stage, but I think most of us have a broader appreciation of music in general, prog or otherwise. But let's face it prog is not nearly as well known or appreciated by the average music fan as it used to be. Correct me if I'm wrong. (Wasn't that statement reasonably humble?) |
Posted By: sealchan
Date Posted: April 29 2009 at 14:01
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I can tell from the responses that my own experience of arrogance is not general (but not unheard of either). I suspect I had a personality that was prone to arrogance and it manifested in my younger years with my particular interests in/attitudes towards music. I think it must be true generally that fans of prog are more appreciative of musical styles. After all the eclectic influences often found in prog are precisely a divergence from the motifs common in the pop music of the day. So taking an interest in prog is often akin to taking an interest in the whole diversity of music. (Of course, this eclecticism is often traced back to the Beatles (and George Martin) and the Beatles have influenced the whole of the pop/rock scene.)
Then there are the attitudes of others that arrogantly turn away from prog whether due to actual dislike or common perceptions. And, of course, we have the whole machinery (money/politics) of the music business/industry that has a huge influence over what is "popular" as much so as do the people who listen to the music. So I think the prog music lovers may be those that are more serious about music and how it relates to themselves. Not content with what is offered on the radio generally, many come to prog for what is lacking there.
On my part, on my Amazon wish list I have Christina Aquilera's Stripped and Kanye West's 808s and Heartbreak. I'm also the proud owner of Shania Twain's Come on Over and my wife and I had the song "From this Moment" sung to us at our wedding (although not by Shania Twain). If I'm a proggie my wife is a "poppie".
Shania has the catchy tunes and Christina has the voice that you don't find in too much prog.
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Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: April 29 2009 at 14:22
Then you're not familiar with how obsessed with superficial definitions of "authenticity" fans of folk music can get. Not all of them are like that, of course, otherwise Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds wouldn't be as popular as that, but do remember that far more booed at Bob Dylan for going electric than at Iron Maiden for using keyboards and that a lot of folk music labels have ridiculously strict standards for what they will sign based on how much the music conforms to some kind of abstract ideal of what "the originals" sound like, often neglecting some pretty good stuff in the process. http://www.davidbyrne.com/news/press/articles/I_hate_world_music_1999.php - This applies in particular to the "world music crowd". Of course, rock purists can get pretty ridiculous too, with a lot of them denying that electronic music or just anything with synths is inherently worse than stuff without. As I said, this is nowhere as bad as in the folk scene but it's still there though I suspect it might be a case of jealousy because electronica is eclipsing rock's place as the most popular genre of music. If anything, progressive rock fans are on average definitely not as "close-minded" as a lot of other kinds of music fans probably because the entire idea of progressive rock is to combine rock music with unusual influences, which logically will get its fans to check out genres they usually wouldn't care that much about. As for being seen as close-minded for preferring stuff that skews different from the norm, that's a pretty funny attitude and a perfect example of what I call suspicious openmindedness because "normal music" has to fit one of many "molds" that the stuff falling outside is harder to market (see David Byrne's rant about "world music") the further you get into the underground. I imagine that a lot of people, especially the ones into the avant/Rock In Opposition business, are here to get away from ordinary music. I feel like adding, though, that Henry Plainview has a point about pop music not necessarily being bad. Over the last month I've been getting into gothic rock, and the brilliant thing about that particular genre is that it combines catchiness and a pop sensibility with icy sophistication.  ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: el dingo
Date Posted: April 29 2009 at 14:46
IMHO, and in a totally apolitical sense, this statement ain't wrong  ------------- It's not that I can't find worth in anything, it's just that I can't find worth in enough. |
Posted By: mr.cub
Date Posted: April 29 2009 at 15:13
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I'm not going to say I'm a fan of classic rock, but I am a fan of scores of classic bands...there is a lot of classic rock that I cannot stand so when people assume I like classic rock because I like certain groups it kind of irks me...that aside
As for being an arrogant music fan, well I can be arrogant whenever I want and its not as if I cant help it. Usually I choose not to be, but whenver it comes to music I cannot stand some of my close friends' taste in top 40 singles and such. They like what some of what I play but its not as if they are going to go out and get the cds. I'm not going to go out and get the latest Lil Wayne or (insert 'the freshest' popular Rap artist) cd that they play because frankly not a lot of it intrigues me that much. And then there's the guy who loves everything from jazz to hip-hop...he's a trip
For all the accusations of seriousness and arrogance, I find prog to be one of the most humble and honest genres of music as there is humor to be had, emotions to be felt and musicianship to marvel at. Popular music at times is much more serious and rigid... ------------- 
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Posted By: Lucent
Date Posted: April 29 2009 at 15:27
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It seems that every fanbase has a stereotype revolved around them. Punk rockers are typical "f**k the system" type people, pop listeners are downright oblivious, and progressive rock lovers are generally those right wing f**ks. It's like saying that "if you're black, you can play basketball quite well." It's not true, but it's to whomever enforces the stereotype. If you're one who enforces the stereotype, then I congratulate you for not thinking of others. Personally, I like progressive music because of the diversity and the emotion and downright effort placed into the music. The reason I have a problem with pop music is they don't even try. Why should anyone who doesn't try for their musical effort be even considered an artist, let alone even signed? Then again, to each his own, right? |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: April 29 2009 at 15:40
I think pop musicians actually do try, I just don't like what they crank out. Punks really try hard not to try, which is inherently annoying. That really makes me want to stick a safety pin their cheeks for some odd reason... |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: April 29 2009 at 16:06
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Kind of reminds me of the joke from the Monkees. I can't recall if it was from the TV show or an interview. When Davey Jones was asked "What do you have to say about criticism that you guys don't play your own instruments?" His response was "That's true...Sometimes I play Mike's and he plays Peter's and Peter plays Micky's." Anyways kind of funny. The connection to that is many pop stars do nothing but sing words that were written for them by professional songwriters and the music is performed by faceless/nameless studio musicians. And to top it off the pop stars true talent lies in wearing little to no clothes while writhing on stage to some dance routine with 10 other dancers surrounding them dancing to a routine that was choreographed by someone else. ------------- 
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: April 29 2009 at 16:11
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I have a confession to make, before I became a total prog freak I was a big Monkees fan.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: April 29 2009 at 16:13
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Nothing wrong with that. I am only a casual Monkees' fan myself, but I enjoy what I have heard from them. -------------
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Posted By: Matthew T
Date Posted: April 29 2009 at 17:24
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I was or still am a Monkees Fan. I watched the shows and have a couple of their singles but like Scott I would say casual these days but I still love Daydream Believer ------------- Matt |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: April 29 2009 at 18:10
When I came onto prog forums,I was asrtounded by the nombers of kids that self-proclaimed as losers, associal, nerds and even virgins. It certainlu did not copare favourably with my generation of progheads (tail end of the golden age) who were quite normal on the average.
But they weemed certain that they listened to the best music around and fully claimed onto music snobbery. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: SgtPepper67
Date Posted: April 29 2009 at 18:41
I agree. Most prog fans seem to underestimate the talent of making good pop songs. I understand if some people only likes complex and challenging music, but in my opinion music being simpler doesn't necessarily mean it is worst than the music you like or has less artistic value. ------------- 
In the end the love you take is equal to the love you made... |
Posted By: mr.cub
Date Posted: April 29 2009 at 18:52
The Beatles for instance. Nobody said more in 2 minutes. That is effective songwriting because it makes you want more but reminds you "hey this is it, the song is complete." However, the 'goodness' in pop music seems to have become strikingly meager in recent years (and decades at that) -------------
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Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: April 29 2009 at 19:04
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Every genre has their elitist fans. But I do admit that there's something about elitist prog fans that especially bugs me. We certainly have some people who think that because prog is not mainstream and because it is so complex, sophisticated and inaccessible to a lot of people that listening to it makes you some sort of superior breed of music fan.
I find prog fans who discriminate against pop music, punk and alternative rock are just as elitist and annoying as punk fans who hate on prog and classic rock. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 29 2009 at 22:56
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Hmm...being also a metalhead, I think prog circles are certainly a lot less conformist and less driven by peer pressure than metal. Maybe it's because we still don't know what prog really is , but jokes apart, I haven't seen much ridicule on the net by prog fans of somebody else for listening to pop or any other non prog genre, which is rampant in metal. "Stay Metal" is taken to a literal extreme by some annoying 'purists' and they HAVE to hold forth on how the "worrying" trend of metal folk listening to too much non metal music is "diluting" the scene. This form of elitism is particularly evident in black metal circles. And I can assure you that I have not exaggerated one bit in that sentence, those are all words I have seen used many times in the exact same context. I certainly haven't seen this kind of verbal coercion in prog circles, people just seem to do what they like though some prog fans do love to talk about how the musicians in their favourite bands - obviously prog! - have such outstanding musicians and the rest of the world is so worth pitying - and lamenting about - for not recognizing their talent...something not seen so much in metal, instead there's a "Who gives a f***?" attitude to musical capabilities, it's all about staying brutal! Now, the next question is: is there really a problem if I don't listen to or like a lot of pop music, does that somehow make me arrogant? I fail to see why, if it doesn't do much for me, it's hard to force myself to listen to lots and lots of it. I happen to find most pop singers extremely artificial, in the same way that most people who are unfamiliar with prog are going to find the Hammils bad and crappy. I don't fret that the likes of Hammil did not get the recognition of say a popstar because I am quite sure I wouldn't enjoy his singing so much in a pop context. It really does not reflect badly on pop at all and I am sure many talented artists must have been and still are associated with it over the years but simply that it's not possible for me to try hard to like each and every style of music (though I might stumble upon a few artists even then who I like, as with pop). I make sure I don't stick to only one style of music and become obsessed with artists only and only from that style of music but ultimately I am looking to have a good time listening to music and it's not always worth the effort to try a zilion times to find something to like in something I dislike strongly, not unless something excites my curiosity and makes me want to come back even if I didn't entirely like what I heard.
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Posted By: el dingo
Date Posted: April 30 2009 at 01:25
They sure kept Neil Diamond in royalties for some considerable time ------------- It's not that I can't find worth in anything, it's just that I can't find worth in enough. |
Posted By: Matthew T
Date Posted: April 30 2009 at 02:03
Stephen Stills auditioned I believe . What would have happened to CSNY if he had got the part ------------- Matt |
Posted By: el dingo
Date Posted: April 30 2009 at 02:52
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^
I guess they would have been plain old CN&Y.
Stills was some sort of child actor at one point I think - sorry for quick off-topic but I'm going to check out that Neil Young album you've been playing a lot later today ------------- It's not that I can't find worth in anything, it's just that I can't find worth in enough. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: April 30 2009 at 05:57
To some extent that must be true, but there are a great number of factors other than personality on the kind of music you like.
One commonly overlooked factor is the physical; You are made up of a number of atoms which vibrate constantly. Upon receiving outside vibrations, your atoms react - and this can be a pleasant or unpleasant feeling which you translate as like or dislike for the experience. Music is particularly powerful - and personal in this respect, as no two people could possibly appreciate the same piece of music the exact same way, because of their dissimilar atomic structures and emotional reactions to changes in vibrations.
As you say, taste can never be superior - although informed and reasoned taste can definitely have an edge in deducing quality.
This is not necessarily so - apart from the apples and oranges comparison.
It's true that you do not have to be a trained musician to play pop or rock music - this has been true from the beginning of the styles. But it is also not true to say that trained musicians will play better pop or rock music - it just doesn't work that way (similarly to jazz in many respects).
In pop, there are good musicians, and in prog, there are poor musicians - as well as vice versa. There are more people (I hesitate to say musicians!) playing pop than prog, ergo there are proportionately fewer good musicians in pop - and because of the lucrative nature of the business, more and more people are attracted to it who do not have musical skills, but the X factor that sells songs.
Using sampled tape loops is not necessarily an indication of lack of musical abilities. Stockhausen did it and invented a whole new way of composing that directly led to the Beatles' "Tomorrow Never Knows" (IIRC), and "Revolution #9" (definitely). Both the latter use sampled tape loops, as do other Beatles tracks, The Orb, Autechre, and Mellotrons.
I disagree - with #1, as this is a generalisation: What makes a better singer? Your personal taste? Ability to stay in tune? Ability to perform complex passages, trills and arpeggios? Great tone?
In prog, there are some excellent singers - and there are probably more excellent pop singers in terms of numbers, but I wonder if it's true proportionately speaking?
What about mediochre pop singers who use all kinds of studio gimmicks to make their voice sound more pleasing on record? There are a great number of those: I had the misfortune to witness Amy Winehouse singing live recently, and she sounded terrible - and this was a televised (and presumably edited) performance. The same goes for Duffy and a large number of very famous "singers".
I'm not saying that they all do this - but I'd suspect that the majority do, as it seems the natural sound of a voice is unacceptable these days. The untrained ear can play tricks in a live situation - it can hear the intent rather than the actuality through familiarity.
It's the live situation in which any band should really be judged - anyone can make a recording with a great producer and it will sound great, if the band and producer are "on fire".
Live, you can hear the recorded backing tracks and tell if people are miming (I HATE it when people do that, Chesney Hawkes!!!) or otherwise faking it.
#2 isn't necessarily a plus point - since when did Prog need catchy melodies?
Point to consider; some of the greatest prog melodies are not immediately catchy, but once you're familiar with them, they can be far more catchy than any pop music - parts of Genesis' "Firth of Fifth" or "Robbery, Assault and Battery", for example - or even Gentle Giant's "On Reflection".
I think pop music has more accessible and immediately catchy melodies and the most popular ones tend to capture a zeitgeist.
The best Prog does more than this - it captures a more timeless musical spirit in the same way that classical music does. That is yet to be proven, of course, as there are many pop songs which are rightly considered as classics - but I think most of the older ones are beginning to sound like old songs rather than timeless ones. The Beatles are a rare exception - but then we consider them Proto-Prog ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: April 30 2009 at 06:14
|
Another point about pop apparently lacking musicianship, is that it shows the OP lacks an understanding of the industry. A lot of people that are play the instruments behind pop singer divas are virtuoso musicians, believe it or not. They do it because it's a money gig. And it's a wise thing to do as well, because what does that mean? When they go and start their own solo project/band and embark on making the music they really like, they have the financial backing behind them already because of their earnings they made from playing with the big stars of pop, they have more connections in the industry and this helps them overcome the obstacles many artists that face when they try to create the music they love such as financial ruin, not being able to get booked for tours/sell many records and get a good sized fan base. Joe Satriani played for Deep Purple and The Rolling Stones at one time in his career. It wasn't the music he wanted to create as he does as a solo artist, but I'm sure it help pay the bills that bit more and helped with exposure. Australia jazz fusion guitar legend virtuoso Brett Garsed played with Aussie pop icon John Farnam. It helped get his name off the ground that bit more than had he just played solo projects all the time. |
Posted By: el dingo
Date Posted: April 30 2009 at 07:59
Best/worst example of this I know is Tom Jones' It's Not Unusual (1967 or so) had a break played by the 17-y-o.......................................Jimmy Page ------------- It's not that I can't find worth in anything, it's just that I can't find worth in enough. |
Posted By: Ultime
Date Posted: April 30 2009 at 08:02
They are certainly virtuoso musicians - they are there to play the music and they are not allowed to errors - they have to deliver the right way.
One of the difference between proggies and poppies is that poppies do not care about them musicians ------------- Ultime tentative |
Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: April 30 2009 at 08:58
I find this to be both a confusing statement.
If pop producers and artists don't care about session musicians, they wouldn't go out of their way to get the very best in the business. Why do they need to go through the trouble of getting virtuoso musicians that work for a large sum of money when they can just get a couple of hacks to do it on the cheap? It's proof enough that a lot of pop producers and artists really DO care about the sound they're putting out.
What musicians have the most prolific careers in pop music? Paul McCartney? Elton John? Stevie Wonder?
Why no, it's guys like Tony Levin, Steve Gadd, Billy Preston and Steve Lukather of course. Behind about 80% of the old pop songs you hear on the radio are musicians just as talented as the best in prog.
Granted that in this more technically savy day and age there's not as much of a requirement for good session musicians. There's no denying that pop music today is pretty ghastly for the most part, technology does most of the work now, pop music used to have the distinction of having the very best singers, but since Britney standards have been lowered.
But in the older days pop music producers and artists, love them or hate them, put a lot of care and talent into their work. If prog deserves universial respect for the amount of discipline and talent that goes into it, then so does a lot of pop music. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 30 2009 at 11:28
Without wanting to sound rude ... if it comes down to this ... you are not listening to music ... you are listening to "hits" ... or only the 5 bands mentioned here (so to speak) ... and you have to understand that is not indicative of reality, or what is out there ... at all!
I specially like "catchier melodies" ... pop music is almost single handedly defined by "melody" and that is part of its catch ... I suppose that we could say that not enough of us has much melody in our hearts to the point where we have to fill it up with the nearest fix ... ooohhhh one over there .... take five! And worse ... we allow some glorified pompous fools and advertisers to tell us that it is good ... and you know what? we believe them! Ohh ... Pink Floyd never had melodies up until DSotM ...
Quality of vocals ... maybe in America ... but then, you don't see many girls and boys taking on rock and experimental music in America like you do in Europe ... so you are missing vocals and then some ...
Can't believe I even answered this thread!
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Posted By: Ultime
Date Posted: April 30 2009 at 13:09
I was not talking about producers but listeners.... ------------- Ultime tentative |
Posted By: Ultime
Date Posted: April 30 2009 at 13:10
I was not talking about producers but listeners ------------- Ultime tentative |
Posted By: el dingo
Date Posted: April 30 2009 at 15:01
Yes they did and you know they did  ------------- It's not that I can't find worth in anything, it's just that I can't find worth in enough. |
Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: April 30 2009 at 15:33
Sorry, but as a die hard prog fan, I'll say that as well! ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: ummagumma08
Date Posted: April 30 2009 at 15:44
|
< ="-" ="text/; =utf-8"> People who are naturally arrogant tend to like prog? I really don't believe prog can teach or encourage a person's arrogance. I developed an interest in prog - and was fascinated by prog, because I was born (or brought up to be) arrogant. When I became even more arrogant, I started to (sort of) dislike prog. Now I only listen to good music – pop, punk, rock, prog, schlager, country, jazz , zeuhl – whatever. Such categorizations tell nothing about artistic quality. Arrogance has nothing - or little - to do with prog. Arrogant people tend choose a 'oppositional' taste in music, it could be prog, could be indie (well mostly!), punk, it could be almost anything that isn't mainstream. Prog is just a random manifestation of arrogance - a manifestation governed by many things. |
Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: April 30 2009 at 16:18
Gentle Giant. There, I just won the thread. |
Posted By: JJT9/8
Date Posted: April 30 2009 at 16:40
|
I've never felt arrogant or superior about my prog listening tendencies as I appreciate most other genres as well.
Also, as a musician myself,I am well aware that with enough practice just about anyone can run scales and arpegios to high hell, make it last long enough with quick stops and starts, and lo and behold, call it prog. I truly believe that it is much more difficult to create pleasent sounding melodies and hooks,than putting dissonant random shredding together. However simple it may sound to the ear, it just might take more talent to create pop. Just try it. Make me a melody worthy of A.M. radio. Bet you can't! |
Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: April 30 2009 at 21:20
| This thread should be renamed the arrogant poppie. I see mostly posts on how pop is better because it's more aesthetically pleasing. You know what big boobs are too, but Iook for more than that in my dates too. |
Posted By: JJT9/8
Date Posted: April 30 2009 at 22:27
|
I don't think anybody is saying pop is better. What I'm reading is that music is subjective and doesn't have to be prog to be enjoyable or good. There are good and bad features in both genres.
I would never presume to tell others what they should or should not listen to. If all you want to listen to is un-aesthetically pleasing music, cool!.. I like some of that too, but in small doses.(how much of Satriani or Dream Theatre can one take before thinking, OK, enough already, I get your point.) (By the way, someone tells you that 2 girls that you know nothing about want to go out with you.One has boobs and the other doesn't. Who are you going to choose?..I think I know the answer... |
Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: April 30 2009 at 22:41
| The boobless one, because her affliction has probably humbled her and made her personality more powerful and deep, perhaps she'd have spent more time culling her intellectual garden and thus be a more solid choice. Plus, you wouldn't have to worry as much about her cheating on you. |
Posted By: JJT9/8
Date Posted: April 30 2009 at 22:55
| Perfect answer..I have to admit that you are a better man than I am.. |
Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: April 30 2009 at 23:00
| But I'd be thinking of the boobed one while making love... |
Posted By: JJT9/8
Date Posted: April 30 2009 at 23:11
| LOL...I knew it!..You are as much a swine as I am... |
Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: April 30 2009 at 23:23
|
Aw, come on! My sense of humor is too strong to let something like that settle into obscurity. I guess if what I said were analogized to music, I'd be listening to Captain Beefheart, but be thinking of Michael Jackson? |
Posted By: JJT9/8
Date Posted: April 30 2009 at 23:44
|
Thanks for making me relevant!
Now there's an idea for a whole new topic...how about listening to Bjork while thinking about Diana Krall.. |
Posted By: el dingo
Date Posted: May 01 2009 at 02:24
That, my friend, Is one heck of a concept. Now if you'd said listening to Jackson while thinking of Beefheart I'd have been really worried ------------- It's not that I can't find worth in anything, it's just that I can't find worth in enough. |
Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: May 01 2009 at 03:03
| No, I do that often... |
Posted By: inrainbows
Date Posted: May 01 2009 at 06:16
I totally agree Matthew, good stuff and ..the other stuff. Arrogant? Not me . The prog itself is by far better than pop ------------- 
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Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: May 01 2009 at 14:53
|
Well, since it's obvious to anyone capable of thought that prog is far superior to all other forms of music, I don't see how someone who likes it could be called arrogant. I mean, if it wasn't so superior you wouldn't read about it all the time and hear it on the radio all the time and in clubs all the time and .......................... oh, wait, never mind. But seriously, I went through a phase where I felt I was in some special uber intelligent secret society because I listed to PROG and the rest of the world was ignorant and just didn't understand REAL music. I have since recovered, largely when I realized that putting on Univers Zero and Van der Graaf Generator was having a negative effect on the outcome of my dates with women Though actually, I have met several women over the years that enjoyed quite a bit of prog, which always surprised me.But the truth is, if you are a progger for more than a couple years, you start to realize that any arrogance or superiority you may feel is obviously misguided. We are a definite (and relatively small) minority of the music listening world (though there is overlap, of course). The only thing that might be true of proggers and might not of many other listeners is that the very nature of prog makes us tend to be more open to other genres of music (though in my own case it was other genre's of music........jazz, classical, and rock.........that led me to prog).
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 01 2009 at 14:56
I'd go with the other one... ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 01 2009 at 19:19
Eccentrica Gallumbits? ------------- What? |
Posted By: progrules
Date Posted: May 01 2009 at 22:28
------------- A day without prog is a wasted day |
Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: May 02 2009 at 13:24
Oh man is that true! The other time I wrote a prog-pop song that I think is actually catchy... first time I got it right! It´s not simple to be simple ------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
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Posted By: LandofLein
Date Posted: May 02 2009 at 15:18
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Well, I felt a little arrogant when I attempted to explain what prog was to my my friend who only listens to pop punk. When I said that the musicianship was generally better than most genres and the songs more complex, he got a little offended, and proceeded to change the song we were listening to (Dogs-PF) to NOFX or Blink 182 or something like that
So I think that there is some feeling of superiority, I don't look down on my friends for liking music that I think is bad, I just think my taste in music is better (obviously, because no one is going to admit that there taste in music is bad)
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Posted By: valravennz
Date Posted: May 02 2009 at 19:41
I've never felt arrogant about being a prog listener - just superior to those who listen to masses of rap/hip hop and today's pop music!  ------------- 
"Music is the Wine that fills the cup of Silence" - Robert Fripp |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 02 2009 at 20:17
|
My Theory (draft 1):
Before mankind developed language repetitive tones and rhythms (that we now call music) were our only means of communication. Most creatures on this Earth use recognisable patterns to communicate with each other, either in visual display or as vocalised calls, and man is no different (there is even speculation that http://www.greenwych.ca/fl-compl.htm - Neanderthals could create music ).
In the 'wild' these sounds are used in four main ways - 1) to announce a presence (I am here) - 2) to bond with a collective, pack, tribe or clan (I belong), 3) to communicate an emotion (I am hungry, angry, scared, happy, heartbroken, horny) and 4) to attract a mate (I am ready and waiting
). As verbal language developed as our primary means of communication the use of non verbal audio communication took a secondary role for entertainment value in the form of music. Yet three main reasons for making repetitive sounds still exist ('to announce a presence' only applies if you drive an Ice Cream van or work for the Emergency services ).The main use for music is to convey emotion - it is no accident that there are so many love songs and ballads, or that there are happy songs and sad songs.
One of the consequences of using repetitive sounds to 'attract a mate' is animals have ability to make subjective comparisons between two different mating calls to chose the better partner. In humans we no longer use this to find a mate, but we still retain the ability to make subjective comparisons and judge whether one collection of sounds is better than another. This ability allows us to associate with styles of music that we subjectively find more 'attractive' and to appreciate them on an aesthetic level.
It is part of the group-dynamic that your 'tribe' sees themselves as better than the next 'tribe' - this is a natural human trait that is present when any group of people get together so that the group stays together - if you thought that another 'tribe' was better then you would join that one instead. Once you are accepted into the 'tribe' your personal behaviour will be modified by the collective in a process called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forming-storming-norming-performing#Norming - norming . This means you will be drawn deeper into the 'tribe' so that you not only see your 'tribe' as being better than the next 'tribe', but everything your 'tribe' likes is better than what another 'tribe' likes. Of course being part of the 'tribe' means that you will defend it and what it likes.
Therefore if 'we' think Progressive music is superior it is not because we are arrogant, but because it is human-nature to think that.
------------- What? |
Posted By: Lucent
Date Posted: May 02 2009 at 20:42
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I hate to break it to myself, but my impression of the boards when I read the posts is a large, conservative arrogance. And I despise conservative notions. This was later proven to me when the collaberators/admins had more priority over the common user reviews as of 1 or 2 years ago. I don't remember. I barely post here anyway. ...No offense.
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Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: May 02 2009 at 21:01
There is a system in play. And, if you contribute enough to the system, you will be given more priority. It rewards hard work and dedication to the site, not to mention weighs for assumed musical knowledge (who is more credible, someone who is sloppy, never writes reviews, and is lacking in musical knowledge, or an admin who has been writing reviews for an extended period of time and familiarizing themselves with music in general?) I mean, such a thing is at least somewhat subjective, but it is still a solid formula. It isn't as if there is some sort of defining rift between admins and regular users. It is possible to gain that status (or at least a higher than normal status) if you want it badly enough. Getting back on topic, I am not arrogant in my musical tastes in much a way. I feel that for a large part it is "you like what you like" way of things. Pop music is no better than prog (all opinion, you know) |
Posted By: Lucent
Date Posted: May 02 2009 at 21:08
Thank you for proving my point in stating that X is better than Y and you have to work to be considerably better, a conservative notion. It doesn't matter about the contributions to the forum or community whatsoever. My opinion is that equal to anyone else's opinion, and that should be represented on the site. However, what we have is that the user reviews are undermined by the administrator/collaberator reviews, which disgusts me, because it's so right winged that it's ridiculous. I love this site, I hate this community for the exact reason of "X is better than Y", a stereotype of progressive fans that this site is reinforcing.
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 03 2009 at 04:07
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^EVERY music site/community has a high contingent of X is better than Y - it's a natural trait of music fans and you have to live with it.
Here it's generally expressed more eloquently and thoughtfully - not to mention passionately than on some sites I could mention, where if you don't agree that X is better than Y then you must suck.
I have yet to see an example of the user reviews being "undermined" by Collaborator reviews - they get lower priority, as was perfectly explained by Altaire.
A good review is one which not only contains an opinion (you are right here, all opinions are equal), but a review that expresses that opinion in a readable, informative and entertaining way.
A review which simply states "X is good" is of less interest than one which describes the sound and the way it makes the reviewer feel. Although the simple opinion review is as valuable as any other, the review itself is as useful as a button rating the music out of 5 - which we have as an alternative and addition already.
Reviewers who produce material of the second type consistently are recognised by this site - so this is a simple incentive to write the best reviews you can.
People often mistake self-consciousness for arrogance - and it seems a common trait of proggers that they tend to be self-conscious and analytical. This is reflected in the music, which is more complex, experimental and technical than other forms of rock music, as a general rule - and for fans of prog, this is BETTER.  ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Ultime
Date Posted: May 04 2009 at 08:42
I'll go with neither of them - as a prog listener, I want to choose who I'm dating ------------- Ultime tentative |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 04 2009 at 09:24
|
^ whoa! that's some really bad quoting there! ------------- What? |
Posted By: progrockgurl
Date Posted: May 04 2009 at 16:31
| Prog rock is coming back I believe it! Just heard Van der Graaf Generator is going on tour over the summer 2009 so sign me up! |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 04 2009 at 16:39
Wonderful. We've never heard of VDGG before neither do we know that they are on tour this Summer. As the premier resource for Prog Rock on the internet we simply would not know this without you here to spam us about it!! Now take yourself off street team girl and stop harming the band you profess to want to share with the whole world. |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: May 04 2009 at 18:10
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I understand the "Arrogant" term on prog fans, since I've been one of them for many years, only to realize that there are quite many acomplished musicians in other genres. I used to look down to other people who listened to "radio" music as I called it, and did not know about the great music they were missing by not listening to prog.
Over the years, however, I also discovered that there are a lot of talented musicians in other genres, I discovered many great guitar, piano, bass and drum players in jazz, flamenco, latin, new age and even pop. As of today, though, I fail to find any good musicians in modern day hip hop, rap, and other popular music of these times. some have great voices, but fail to convince me witht the content of their music. However, there are many modern day great artists, and you can find them in a more underground scene. Try some of the alternative rock bands, like the airborne toxic event for example, and you'll find great music/musicians who could not be laveled as prog or pop, but create great music as well.
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Posted By: Bitterblogger
Date Posted: May 04 2009 at 20:08
Add #3. Widespread respectful coverage in the MSM.
And #4. Number of acts in the R & R HOF.
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Posted By: Leningrad
Date Posted: May 04 2009 at 20:18
| no proggers are not arrogant *scoffs at MTV and strokes unkempt hair* |
Posted By: Lucent
Date Posted: May 04 2009 at 20:50
...You have just proved my arrogance with one post.
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: May 04 2009 at 21:38
Yeah, you figured me out. Mr. Right-wing, that's me. We get that you don't like the site's policies, but you might wish to tone down some of this. Or rather, if it bothers you so much, why stay in a community you hate? |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: May 04 2009 at 22:37
|
^ He's been putting out fire with gasoline ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: May 04 2009 at 22:48
| What the hell do politics have to do with rating on a fricking music site. Get over the persecution complex!!! |
Posted By: Starless
Date Posted: May 05 2009 at 06:39
| Gawd there's a lot of whiny liberals on this post! Most modern pop (pap) musick sucks, end of. Arrogant and proud of it - ask the wife! |
Posted By: Lucent
Date Posted: May 05 2009 at 21:03
It's a general basis. X leads to Y behaviour, so Y behaviour can be linked back to X.
Because conservatives don't whine more at all. No way. You don't turn on Faux News and see Bill O Reilly flip the lid towards innocent people. You don't see Jack Thompson try to ban video games even though he was revoked of his rights to law. No way. Other than defending myself, I have nothing relevant to post in this topic. Then again, these last 3 posts had nothing to do with the post either. |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: May 05 2009 at 21:39
|
Not necessarily limited to proggers though. I was a straight up metal head in High School and I was a music elitist. I would shred most people who like music I thought wasn't "good" and tell them how much it sucked. I was really an arrogant bast*rd. This was especially the case with any music I thought was "pop" I ragged on them the most. Pop in my opinion were most punk bands today, all radio music, rap, emo. However, a lot of proggers I do know, or people into more artsy bands *cough TOOL cough* did tend to be pretentious or just a general a**hole. Something about liking more intelligent music I suppose. I'd like to think I reformed my ways though. When it comes to music: To each their own. |
Posted By: el dingo
Date Posted: May 06 2009 at 02:21
Yeah I'm with you on this one. Apparently I'm one of these arrogant right-wing proggers too. Must be why I'm not afraid to mention my love of The Clash, The Faces, The Kinks, Manic Street Preachers and even MCR at any given opportunity. That's probably why I'm the proud possessor of a Trade Union card and have never voted Tory in my life too.
As for the reviewing system, it's not a pecking order but merely common sense. It's like the journalistic thing of staff reporters and freelances (I've been both so might know a little about it) - both have their places and the opinions of both are equally valid, but the staff guys are the backbone of the publication as they produce it virtually 24/7.
Politics on PA? No thanks. ------------- It's not that I can't find worth in anything, it's just that I can't find worth in enough. |
Posted By: el dingo
Date Posted: May 06 2009 at 02:32
How is it possible to hate an entire community when most of us here on PA know hardly anything about each other?
I do not and cannot hate you because I have never met you. If you think everyone here is stereotypical, check out "Just For Fun". You might even like it, and it sure is apolitical. ------------- It's not that I can't find worth in anything, it's just that I can't find worth in enough. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 06 2009 at 03:51
My hair is MUCH more unkempt than his... Do I win the arrogance prize? ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: el dingo
Date Posted: May 06 2009 at 03:53
|
^
My hair is so unkempt that I failed auditions for Ozric Tentacles AND The Levellers. ------------- It's not that I can't find worth in anything, it's just that I can't find worth in enough. |
Posted By: Lionheart
Date Posted: May 06 2009 at 05:33
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To some extent I like the kind of music I like because of my personality. I think this is true for almost everyone - you have to identify with it on some level, and that's part of your draw to it. 1. Quality of vocals: better singers in pop It depends - there are some great singers in prog (Francesco Di Giacomo for one). 2. Catchier melodies in pop, especially if producers and other non-musical professionals get involved I agree with the "catchier melodies" part, but I disagree with the "non-musical professionals" part. If you take a look at songwriters who pumped out hit after hit (example - the songwriting teams at Motown during the heyday, and the stuff that came out of Philly in the 70's) you would have to *at least* acknowledge that they were professional songwriters (also McCartney, Rundgren and Brian Wilson). Pop comes off as a "lesser" music form to a lot of people, but in my mind, it's extremely difficult to write a brilliant pop song, and it shouldn't be underestimated or undervalued. People knock off Dream Theatre all the time, and the reason is because it's very easy to imitate. Nobody knocks off McCartney or Brian Wilson (with any real effect, anyway), because they are gifted songwriters. And, I'm sure any prog band would agree with me on that. Do you agree/disagree? Any life stories about having rehabilitated from being a prog snob? Any justifications for being more of a prog snob? I don't think there's any justification in being a snob about any form of music. If you like it, you like it. |